The difference between $5 gas here & $5 gas in Europe

[Jackpine Radical]

is that the Europeans get something back for their $5. They pay a lot in taxes of various sorts, but they benefit mightily from living in advanced societies. All we get is outrageous oil company profits.

[raccoon]

Especially most of them have a national health plan.

Whereas, we Americans can end up destitute as a result of medical expenses. Or else we don't get treatment at all.

I think comparing US gas prices to those in Europe is comparing apples to oranges. Europe has much better public transportation than most of the US does. Much of the US has no access to public transporation.

Also, in the US people may commute 50 miles or more to work every day. The US is just a lot more spread out.

[sasha031]

5. remember under Clinton

the increase in taxes on cigarettes was suppose to go toward health care. Oh where oh where did that money go?

[jhawk_tim]

10. Probably

to the Clinton Library.

[ret5hd]

13. Link?

[LostinVA]

33. Whatever

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

63. Oh, how funny.

Let me guess: Al Gore said he invented the Internet and Chelsea Clinton was the White House dog, right?

Bleh.

[SoCalDem]

78. It was probabbly included in the surplus that W blew on his pals

:)

[acmejack]

18. I know that destitution firsthand.

Takes care of all those bothersome possessions, such as a house, bank accounts, 401K, etc.

[sasha031]

1. the taxes of their gasoline

helps pay for their health insurance.

[TheCowsCameHome]

24. And they don't drive gas-guzzling land barges, either

[dutchdemocrat]

31. In Holland

US$5 won't even get you a gallon with premium petrol at €1.40 a litre.

However, keep in mind, the train system is excellent (free for students), most people ride bikes to get around, and the country is only a shade bigger than New Jersey.

Holland also pays for post secondary education (though that is slated for change) meaning university is essentially free (including housing, living expenses and books), FULL medical and dental for a family of four is less than €100 a month, and there are no ghettos in the cities of Holland. People on unemployment benefits (welfare) live on a reasonable amount of money and get an extra month's money every summer to take a holiday.

Yet unemployment rates are low, drug abuse statistics are lower than most of Europe, and the country has the lowest teenage pregnancy in Europe. Soft drugs don't have the allure since they are legal, and sex/nudity are not shame factors. The Dutch have a strong work ethic - but if they run into trouble - the system allows them to retain some dignity.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

49. Git out of heah wit' that commie crap.

Seriously it sounds like people do get real results from paying their taxes.

[phusion]

57. Free train for students and free univ?

man...

Sounds like Holland really sucks!!

[Mr. Streisand]

40. This is Great!

I was knocked out by this -
thanksalotW.com

kinda puts the blame where it should be...

[jhawk_tim]

2. Okay,

How about some examples? So many posts talk about how much greater it is somewhere else but never cite examples. I grew up in Missouri - The "Show Me" state.

[meganmonkey]

6. Healthcare and reliable, safe public transportation

to name a couple big ones.

Imagine how $5 gas wouldn't matter as much if you could actually get places without a car? I stayed in a tiny village in Germany, about 1000 people, and there were 2 train stops there. I could get anywhere in Europe by train. Affordably. To the next town over, or 3 countries away.

:shrug:

[meganmonkey]

7. Ooops, dupe post

[MyNameGoesHere]

9. No need to show you

take a trip to some other countries where they have universal health plans and see for yourself. Talk to the people who benefit from it and make up your own mind. I do not believe you will find these answers in Missouri.

[readmoreoften]

15. I grew up in NJ

We're the "Go There And See For Yourself" state.

Sweden, The Netherlands, Germany (especially Northern Germany), Austria (especially Vienna), Switzerland, and Spain are really fantastic places to live with high rates of education, low crime, fantastic architecture, and gorgeous landscapes.

I love my country, but these nations far surpass us when it comes to education and quality of life.

[jhawk_tim]

19. But,

Sweden is about the same size as New Jersey. Those countries you mention are easily connected by mass transit because they don't span the vast space as well as diverse countryside that we have.

[MyNameGoesHere]

21. Funny

I traveled all over Europe for over 3 years and never once had a car. Even little towns of a few people had some type of public transportation. And i believe Europe is a tad bigger than NJ.

[jhawk_tim]

22. Yes, a tad bigger than NJ but,

Half the size of the US

[Touchdown]

64. Bzzz. Wrong again.

Austraila is bigger than the CONUS. Since I was held hostage in Missouri's roach motel for 10 years (KCMO), then I'll show you.



BTW: Sweden is the size of California, and has a fraction of the population. France=Texas, Germany=Montana, Russia=Alaska. Ireland? Now that's the size of Missouri.

[MildyRules]

70. Actually, you're wrong...

Australia is slightly smaller than the continental US.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/as.html#Geo

[Touchdown]

71. So then we're both wrong.

If Australia is slightly smaller than the CONUS, and Europe (only counting west of the Urals) is bigger than Australia, then it does not equal that Europe is HALF the size of the US, does it?

Funny you should criticize my lack of knowledge, and not the more outrageous claim of our Missourian friend here.

[MildyRules]

73. Well, I don't think he was counting Europe

all the way to the Urals, first of all, (many people tend to view "Europe" as the EU and not as a geographic entity that encompasses part of Russia) but I was not commenting on his post. I didn't even read it until just now. Was just commenting on yours.

[Touchdown]

75. Oh' I see.

Good excuses.

BTW: Who are these "many people"?

[MildyRules]

76. I'm not making an excuse

You jumped on him for being wrong when you, in fact, yourself were wrong. Deal with it. Be a big boy.

[Touchdown]

77. Oh' I am. No big deal.

You're playing favorites and gleaning what you "THINK" he meant, and I don't have to be anyone's favorite. I'm dealing.:hi:

[MildyRules]

79. Wasn't playing favorites at all

And I guarantee that most Americans have NO idea that Europe stretches all the way to the Urals. Hell, most Americans couldn't FIND the Urals on a map.

[Qibing Zero]

28. Psst, Sweden is over double the size of NJ.

But yes, if you don't consider the northern half of the nordic countries, the rest of europe is pretty well easily connected. Don't forget the mountain ranges and much varying terrain though, which make things just as difficult as things here would be here if the US was squeezed in together a little more.

[tocqueville]

34. double ? ten times yes

8722 square miles NJ

173 746 square miles Sweden

The Swedes have a well developed local and long distance tranportation system with trains and buses.

Subways or trams in major cities.

Very few highways, but many 4 files roads.

Distance isn't the major reason for the difference between the US and Europe. The US chose an individual based system, Europe a mixture of common and individual systems.

[Qibing Zero]

69. Oops, I was going by km and misplaced a digit - knew it didn't seem right

It's actually over 20.

NJ - 20169
Sweden - 449964

[dutchdemocrat]

39. Has nothing to do with intercity travel

Inner city travel is where the US loses. The American dependency on petrol in order to get to work and back in their own vehicle rather than riding a bike, catching a bus, trolley, subway, or train in Europe is what is going to make the difference when gas prices hit the roof in the United States.

The infrastructure is simply not there. Period. I've lived in L.A. without a car... and it's ridiculous.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

50. Vast space is only part of it.

Development in Europe is generally much higher density than development in the US, especially when one compares recent suburban development in the US to that in Europe.

[Beowulf]

68. Sweden is about the size of California

and similarly shaped, yet you can easily get from Lund to Kiruna, north of the Arctic Circle - a distance of about 1,600 kilometers - by train.

[iconoclastNYC]

41. Who's supplying gas to EUROPE?

It's practically the same oil companies. You can't tell me that these companies are not making money off gasonline sold in the E.U.

[dutchdemocrat]

44. Okay. Here.

In Holland US$5 won't even get you a gallon with premium petrol at €1.40 a litre.

But the train system is excellent (free for students), most people ride bikes to get around, and the country is only a shade bigger than New Jersey.

In Europe one finds it quite easy to get around in urban settings without a vehicle and rural links are excellent.

Holland also pays for post secondary education (though that is slated for change) meaning university is essentially free (including housing, living expenses and books), FULL medical and dental for a family of four is less than €100 a month, and there are no ghettos in the cities of Holland. People on unemployment benefits (welfare) live on a reasonable amount of money and get an extra month's money every summer to take a holiday.

Yet unemployment rates are low, drug abuse statistics are lower than most of Europe, and the country has the lowest teenage pregnancy in Europe. Soft drugs don't have the allure since they are legal, and sex/nudity are not shame factors. The Dutch have a strong work ethic - but if they run into trouble - the system allows them to retain some dignity.

I have live in L.A. and Miami, so I am familiar with "life" in the US. And I have also lived in the UK, Brazil, Canada, The Netherlands, Australia, Thailand, and a few other places. Brazil even has a national health care system...

[alarimer]

51. Someone just listed a whole bunch of them

Or did you miss that message?

[never cry wolf]

54. Here's a great link, recommended reading for all.

It's kind of long and starts out about how the Danes went on a national strike to win better conditions for the workers but it goes on to describe how a typical european "welfare" state works and the benefits of such. It really is alot more quality of life and family oriented than here.



http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/welfare.htm

[zalinda]

3. Something else is different

we live a spread out life. Unless you live in a downtown area, you have to drive. In most places the bus systems are only mildly useful. Our country was built on the theory that we would always have cheap gas. A lot of our main streets don't even have sidewalks, and bike paths are a rarity.

zalinda

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

36. Actually, that's on my list...

...of "Things I've learned from living in the UK"

#7: American land use policies are stupid because fuel is cheap.

[Mr. Streisand]

42. Natural Gas Prices

I'm not as worried about gasoline as I am natural gas this winter and heating oil. Did you see the protest ribbon magnet with the inverted W? it's a great statement. www.thanksalotw.com

[newportdadde]

4. Exactly!

We get NOTHING from the jump in gas but money out of our wallet and into the hands of the large oil companies. Also our country is setup much different then Europe, is larger for one thing and more sprawled. For many of us there is NO public transportation and for other it is very limited, really only in major US cities is this a very viable method of transporation on a daily basis.

When my wife lived in Germany in a small village of around 2k people she could walk to public transit which was not very far and take it pretty much anywhere. A town of 2k say in Missouri where I grew up is about 45 MILES from the nearest form of any public transportation which was very limited as well.

Its a shame we aren't setup for it here I would love to have light rail and for awhile it was discussed but it got shot down. I think thats something our European friends need to understand when they try to compare prices with us.

[tocqueville]

8. 75% of the gas price in France is tax

about 50% goes to road maintenance and infrastructure
25% is VAT which goes in the common tax pot.

The French government has lately threatened the oil industry with taxation on their profits if they didn't sank their prices. This resulted in a 10c decrease.

The extra money cashed in (the higher the price is, the more the tax increases) is supposed to go back this winter to elderly depending on fuel for heating, in form of an allowance.

[MildyRules]

11. Biggest difference is that we don't HAVE $5 gas here...

[tocqueville]

12. yet

[MildyRules]

14. And when ours is $5

how much do you think it's going to be in Europe???

[tocqueville]

23. See my above post

The governments will probably lower the taxes. It would mean lower road maintenance, but you could live with that as long as transport flows. Besides the plans to go over to alternative energy sources are more and more implemented. The main source would be vegetable oil, it already works. It's only a tax question. Bif industries to produce biofuels are constructed, it's a sign.

[MildyRules]

25. They CAN'T lower the taxes

Look at all the services that depend on those taxes. Do you think the Europeans are going to cut back on health care, public transpiration, and the like?

[tocqueville]

27. READ MY POST

the healthcare isn't financed by oil taxes. Only the road maintenance.
An European pays in average 30% in taxes on his wage. There you have the other money.

[MildyRules]

29. They CAN'T lower the taxes

without it IMPACTING their social welfare net! Period! If they cut the taxes on gasoline, they will be forced to spend OTHER tax monies on "road maintenance" (BTW, taxes on petrol in Europe pay for FAR more than just road maintenance).

[tocqueville]

46. Difficult to get eh ?

Transportation is vital to the system to work. So if the transportation becomes to expensive it threatens the whole welfare.

Mainenance is mostly the EXPANSION - and some repair of the existing infrastructure. The expansion can be slowed through lower taxes, it doesn't have to stop.

I told you that the vast majority of the money is coming from OTHER sources. The oil tax in France gives 25 billions Euros/year which is nothing compared to the 44% of the French GDP which is made of taxes. the French GDP is 1,426.6 billion.

Do the math. Period.

[MildyRules]

47. Perhaps if you

used proper definitions. Maintenance is not expansion. Taxes on petrol in Europe fund MUCH more than "road expansion" (using your definition).

Europe is much more than France.

High taxes on petrol helps Europeans fund their relatively high standard of living. European countries CANNOT afford to sharply reduce taxes on petrol without significantly 1) raising taxes elsewhere or 2) cutting back on services.

[tocqueville]

53. central European countries are similar

with the exception of the UK

the main sources of income though tax are VAT (25% of the price of every good or service sold), income tax, corporate tax and capital tax.

Most of the welfare system in a country like France goes though the corporate tax which is about 40% of the wage (an employer hiring somebody for 1000 euros have to pay 1400 euros, the 400 euros extra go to the state). It finance big parts of medicare and most of the pensions.

The 25 millions I named are only a part of the nearly 700 millions collected in taxes in an economy like France which is one of the major ones equal to the UK and somewhat lower than Germany.

Discussions show here that a LOWERING of that tax would reduce the price of gas if it went over $6 a gallon. The Europeans are paying today about 1.20 euros the liter and it's considered the above limit.
People don't want to pay more. The problem isn't still so much private transportation but with the price of fuel for agriculture and fishing. This can be PRIMARILY regulated by lowering the TIPP (maintenance tax).

Of course this would impact the new projects (they are mostly a tunnel between France and Italy) and maintenance. Maintenance can be maintained by somewhat increasing the fees for the highways (even if partly private, tax will give more).

French law regulates how the fuel tax is later disposed, it doesn't go in general kettle.

My point is that a lowering of fuel taxes won't really impact on welfare. And regarding to other countries, they have the same amount of tax coming from fuel compared with France. Many countries have far less cars, Germany isn't much bigger than France. But as an average the fuel tax isn't probably much more than 3-4% of the total tax package.

So it's a complete misconception that the European welfare is financed by fuel taxes. The major part comes from the VAT, the rest from corporate and income tax.

[MildyRules]

58. Fuel taxes account

for 4-5% of total tax revenues in Germany and France. Agreed it is not a HUGE amount, BUT, if petrol taxes are reduced, revenues will HAVE to be increased elsewhere, or services cut.

BTW, in one of your earlier posts you said that 25% of French petrol taxes went into general revenue, but in this one you said that none of it goes into the "general kettle"....which is it?

[tocqueville]

62. I said the VAT is 25% on EVERY good sold

which means that every time you buy something (except for a few products or services) 25% of the price is tax (in reality it's more 22%). It's true that this part goes in the general kettle, and it applies to a PART of the 25 millions retrieved in fuel tax (within the 3-5%). But the majority of this tax doesn't come from fuel.

You can still lower the other tax ("the maintenance tax") - you don't have to take it all, but a part of it.

When the oil was at $70 the barrel, gasoline increased with 20-30c in France. Now it's back at the "accepted" price, but through other measures than tax cuts. The government under pressure from public opinion threatened Total (the third biggest company in the world) with extra taxation if they didn't lowered (after all they are making huge profits). It worked. And the other companies followed.

I can agree that lowering the fuel taxes cannot be used indefinetly.
But in today's situation it would have a minimal or no impact on welfare, since the financing come for other sources. But it might impact on coming reforms, expected raises. Which doesn't mean that the welfare level would be lowered, only slowered in its developement. It's a big difference.

Europe is going through a lot of readjustments and the major handicap is unemployment which lowers the consumers ability to buy. This is changing slowly now in the right direction.

I think that the major problem regarding fuel is if Iran goes over to a petroeuro instead of a petrodollar and China follows. That would be like nuking the US. But it's not good for Europe, because the US is our major trade partner. Can't the US afford our stuff, it's a loss for both.

[YapiYapo]

56. Biofuel ?

Really why did de villepin said biofuel is a energy sink in International Energy Agency then ? They know it will never replace oil, thats why he said, "nous sommes entré dans l'aire de l'apres pétrole".

[tocqueville]

72. I don't really understand what you mean

but... what I know of :

biofuel is mostly ethanol (from beets) and/or vegetable oil (colza)...
You can also add wood, mostly from normally not used waste from saw mills (but that's for heating).

I don't know what Villepin meant but he is right when he says "we have gone into the post-oil era". I think it was more a peek into the future than anything else.

You cannot replace oil TODAY yes, but it's imperative that you prepare today for the day it becomes too expensive because too scarce or too difficult to extract. Oil shales are not an alternative unless you want to dig up most of Wyoming and a bigger part of Colorado.

France is in the middle of the fight between oil companies and agricultural ones. Biofuel cannot replace oil today for public transportation, but it could do it for the agricultural (tractors) part in the beginning. There are huge areas that could be converted or which could be reopened. I think you could run a substantial part of the machine park on those fuels. France have a lot of non exploited resources and the main reason it hasn't worked more than on little scale is mostly tax reasons. All that because of the oil lobby (it's not only Texas). It's bound to change.

France will go on in producing most of it's energy through nuclear power. If you could reduce the oil consumtion to the production of plastics, pharmacy products and fertilizers, very much would be won.

Cars could be hybrids in the beginning (electric/biofuel). All what you really need is a strong political impulse. Germany is more and more leading that way. But France has the ressources.

[jhawk_tim]

16. Good point!

I only paid $2.95 this morning. That is high but it isn't the $5 that this thread leads one to believe we are paying.

[LostinVA]

35. How much did you pay last year? Last March?

And no reason for the raise. There is no reason for it to be this high. Don't EVEN mention the hurricanes. It was $2.50 two weeks before Katrina hit.

Having your oilmen in the government isn't helping things.

What was gas under Clinton. Oh, sorry -- guess he used THAT money for the Clinton Library too.

Just like glass.

[Mr. Streisand]

43. Bush is why it's high

www.thanksalotw.com/Story

[dutchdemocrat]

37. Jimbo

Where does it say you are paying US$5 on this thread? No point... you mean.

[chelsea0011]

17. Only being in France, my opinion is fairly limited, but

it is a completely different lifestyle. All the cities, tonws, and villages I visited are all self-sufficient with the auto not needed to get by. I didn't see the super market that we all drive to get groceries. Instead they still have the markets that specialize in certain items. You go to the bakery for bread, meat market for well, meats, and the cheese shops to get well, cheeses. Schools and entertasinment are local walk-to's. My town. I drive everywhere to do anything.

[tocqueville]

26. the majority doesn't live in such villages.

But in a middle sized city you can still do much of the above. You drive to the supermarket, 1-2 times a month.

Where I live the tramway first line has replaced 55 000 trips a day which normally were by car. The second line, soon ready will double that. The town is about 350 000 inhabitants.

[never cry wolf]

61. I lived in Versailles for a year

While in college. It is essentially a suburb of Paris. Four fellow students and I chipped in and bought a used VW van for our mandatory twice a semester independent study trips through europe but we rarely used it for other than that, maybe once every 3 weeks between 5 guys. Versailles has 3 train lines that go into Paris, once there you can take the metro to within 2 or 3 blocks of anywhere in the city, cost of the metro was about 75 cents. On the short half mile or so walk from school in the palace's stables to the house we were boarded in there were 3 bakeries, 2 meat shops, 2 delis, numerous cafes and nearly anything else you'd ever need.

We were lucky in that our landlady allowed us unlimited showers, many students were limited to 2 or 3 a week due to energy costs. On our trips we could buy a shower in a train station for about $1, $5 if you wanted HOT water.

We chose the van for our transportation for economical reasons because we also slept in it but many students traveled by eurail pass. I did for 2 weeks at christmas to meet my parents in Madrid. I left our van group in Rome and had a couple of days to kill so I went to Vienna and Geneve, each time timing my trip so I could sleep overnight on the train. You can get just about anywhere in europe by public transportation and some walking. I noticed that europeans generally had thick calves and ankles.

BTW: This was 1978/79. My friends back home driving their boats and muscle cars complained that gas was almost $1 a gallon, we were paying about $3.50 but I am sure travelled alot farther for less money overall.

[tocqueville]

74. it has changed since then

Where I live there are 3 bigger supermarkets, and about 10 smaller. Add to that a big store (food + clothes) in the middle of the town + a huge mall. Then 3 open markets and the Arab market.

The small specialized shops still exist, but the small butchers/charks have nearly disappeared due to much tougher hygiene conditions.

The local French little grocery store has nearly disappeared but been replaced by the Arab one, open all hours. It sells basically the same stuff, but makes its money on selling booze late (after 21.00).

The center of the city is car-free (areal of about 5 square miles).
The tramway (a second line to be open soon) transports about 1/4 of the population everyday. It might go up to 1/3 after the new line open. A 3rd line will open 2011.

[ComerPerro]

20. Thank you for posting this

I get so tired of the justification for high prices in the US, by people who say "Well, imagine the cost in Europe. We get a bargain!"

Its BS. Its about as annoying as the, "Imagine if your car ran on some of these other liquids"

Then they list the prices of other liquids that are sold by the gallon, including bottled water. Yeah, your car runs on water and you are going to fuel it with Evian.

And, yes, Milk is more expensive than gas, thank you. I'll take comfort in that, next time it takes me two gallons of milk a day just to get to and from work.

[NJCher]

30. choice

Why don't we have as much choice in transportation as we do in consumer products like laundry detergents or deodorant or hair sprays?

I have to drive everywhere because I live in the suburbs of NYC. I would much rather take public transportation and use my time wisely instead of operating a vehicle. Let someone else do that while I work or write or enjoy music and read or whatever.

But noooooooooooooooooooo, we couldn't do that here, could we? It's an "every man for himself" system. No thought for the group at all.




Cher

[LostinVA]

32. And many of them can easily use public transport

or bikes to get to work.

And, they have inexpensive, tiny cars that get great gas mileage.

[McCamy Taylor]

38. Mass transit.

[RedRocco]

45. I would gladly pay $5/gal

in exchange for healthcare and an educational system that works

[LostinVA]

48. Me too!

[Straight Shooter]

52. Do Europeans have the same fanatical "love affair" with their cars?

Are Americans singularly distinctive for their incredible attachment to their cars as if the car were a living being? Do Europeans name their cars like many Americans do?

Another thing. When I rode the bus in Houston, I was annoyed at having to do so because there was no sense of privacy and it was noisy, but it was great that it was available. Yet everywhere I'd look, there would be countless vehicles with only one person in the car. It's, like, this is my territory and I ain't gonna share it.

Maybe Europeans are more comfortable about sharing their personal space than Americans, which would help explain why Americans want their beloved little metal boxes all to themselves.

[Marr]

55. The big difference is that their infrastructures were built with high

gas prices in mind. Their lifestyles are based around it as well, with people usually either working closer to home or taking public transit.

High gas prices *are* a greater hardship on Americans than Europeans, because we simply don't have the infrastructure to cope with it.

[Ladyhawk]

67. Also, the population is more spread out.

It's next to impossible to live without a car in a rural area. I live in the biggest town in the county, but it's still a teensy town. It has a couple of small public transit buses that run around. I've heard them called "loser buses." I guess if you can't afford to have a car in this county, you're poor and pretty much screwed.

[jmatthan]

59. In Oulu, Finland, here are some issues that you should consider

1. The bus service that runs almost to the minute (as otherwise we would freeze in the -35 C in winter). Children travelling more than 6 km to school get free bus passes. Mothers with prams and push chairs go free in buses.

2. We have an excellent bicycle track across the entire city which makes it very easy to use a bike, even for little children. Cycling to work - even 10 km is no great hassle.

3. Most Finns believe in a healthy life style, which means they walk, jog or run more, so skiing, skating, roller skating, are very relevant in daily life.

4. Speed limits on highways and motorways ensure best use of petrol. (40, 60, 80, 100 and 120 kmph in different circumstances).

5. House are extremely well insulated ensuring that there is very low energy loss. Town heating systems are being installed almost everywhere.

6. The high price of petrol is mainly in taxes (60-70%) which ensures that the road maintainence is excellent all around the country. Excess amounts are used to fund environmental and reserach programmes on energy.

7. Although income taxes are high (from 11% - to 30%), the social services are extremely good making it worthwhile to support the commons.

8. Over 99% of people belong to labor unions - so there is no panic when one loses a job, giving a more stable mentality when living life.

That is not to say that there are also many minuses in Finland - and I have written about them in many forums. But we have a standard of living which is obviously infinitely better than in the US although our cost of living is also high.

[NJCher]

80. very interesting, jmatthan

Your society sounds so organized.

I don't know why we can't do something similar here in the states. It makes so much sense.

Here it's a front page story when a major city decides to provide wireless. :crazy:




Cher

[jmatthan]

81. Forgot to add

The entire University, City centre, the businessl and high people use areas, have free acceess by wi-fi to the internet.

[enid602]

60. Madrid

Little Madrid (pop 3 million, including suburbs) has more miles of subway than NYC.

[thinkingwoman]

65. I say this all the time

and people ignore me.

I would HAPPILY pay $5 for gas if that money went somewhere to benefit society.

I don't think record oil company profits benefit society.

[thinkingwoman]

66. P.S. Recommended. nt