A few words about "conspiracy"

[buzzsaw_23]

Richard M. Dolan studied at Alfred University and Oxford University before completing his graduate work in history at the University of Rochester, where he was a finalist for a Rhodes scholarship. Dolan studied U.S. Cold War strategy, Soviet history and culture, and international diplomacy. He has written about "conspiracy" in the following way:

"The very label serves as an automatic dismissal, as though no one ever acts in secret. Let us bring some perspective and common sense to this issue."

"The United States comprises large organizations - corporations, bureaucracies, "interest groups," and the like - which are conspiratorial by nature. That is, they are hierarchical, their important decisions are made in secret by a few key decision-makers, and they are not above lying about their activities. Such is the nature of organizational behavior. "Conspiracy," in this key sense, is a way of life around the globe."

"Anyone who has lived in a repressive society knows that official manipulation of the truth occurs daily. But societies have their many and their few. In all times and all places, it is the few who rule, and the few who exert dominant influence over what we may call official culture. - All elites take care to manipulate public information to maintain existing structures of power. It's an old game."

"America is nominally a republic and free society, but in reality an empire and oligarchy, vaguely aware of its own oppression, within and without. I have used the term "national security state" to describe its structures of power. It is a convenient way to express the military and intelligence communities, as well as the worlds that feed upon them, such as defense contractors and other underground, nebulous entities. Its fundamental traits are secrecy, wealth, independence, power, and duplicity."

[salvorhardin]

1. And therefore by extension

every thing is a conspiracy?

No? Well skeptics aren't arguing that there aren't any conspiracies either. Watergate was a conspiracy. Obviously Tom Delay and TRMPAC were a conspiracy as was what Ken Delay and the upper management at Enron were doing. What we argue against are those specific conspiracy theories that are either pure hokum to begin with (chemtrails) or those conspiracy theories whose foundational facts are sourced from people and websites shown repeatedly to be hokum (David Icke). We also argue against those conspiracy theories that would involve so many people as to be unbelievable that any secret could be kept. Watergate involved just a handful of people and look how that fell apart, so why would we assume that conspiracy theories involving hundreds or even thousands of people could be kept secret?

[buzzsaw_23]

3. Conspiracies

are not all alike.

Noone is suggesting everything is conspiracy.

However of course the fundamental operating technique of the hierarchical governmental structure is conspiratorial meaning they get in rooms and 'breathe' together. Maybe we could just label it 'organized greed'.

Most importantly it is essential to lend credence, rather than outright dismiss, the notion of "conspiracy theory" so as to allow people to come to terms with how this government really operates so as to formulate effective methods for countering its sinister nature.

Now of course Mr. Icke is not to be considered in the realm of conspiracy and when his postulations are lumped in with the large body of "conspiracy theory" it marginalizes the entire framework.

Realpolitik

[Caution]

2. I have one word. Evidence. If you dont have evidence

you are simply making shit up. Why is it that people who identify themselves as buying into conspiracy theories cannot admit when a piece of evidence is shown to be wrong? Why do they inevitably attack the person who refutes the evidence as "part of the conspiracy" ?

When conspiracy theorirsts can show me one damned piece of actual irrefutable evidence as defined scientifically then I will begin to spend more time on that ONE theory. And one theory being true DOES NOT make them all true.

I mean for bob's sake the same group of people couldn't hide a freakin burglary and we are meant to believe they are capable of the types of conspiracies that are thrown up on DU every 5 minutes? Gives me a break!

[undergroundpanther]

4. I have my own experiences as evidence

I have my friend who went through similar shit too.We used to empathize with each other to cope.
We both were used by the government in some sort of testing.
We both have been hurt by it too. Some of my experiences are really x files sounding.But I know it occurred. But if I try to tell myself I am making it all up,or deny what happened,or minimize what I know is true(and always knew)I will make myself crazy. I spent years trying to live a lie which was a "normal life".. Now I can't do that anymore. I would go crazy if I had to lie to myself like that.So when I face up to the truth of my own life experiences I find I can never trust or believe the words of any so called powerful people or their self serving hierarchical organizations again.
But that's just me,you may not have lived through what I did,so saying the government is not a bunch of sociopaths and a crony club who's #1 job is exploit and cover ass it isn't the same sort of toxic denial to you.But for me to trust any of the people in the military or in certain corporations or with certain connections is impossible.

[Caution]

7. One true example does not make all examples true.

Evidence must be provided before any of us should accept ANY conspiracy theory. Plain and simple. And when evidence is refuted, those who push a theory shoudl either accep tthe refutation or provide better evidence rather than continue to blindly push their theory.

[mattclearing]

5. But what about when the official story has no evidence?

JFK's assassination, as well as more than a few aspects of the official September 11th story, seem to make no sense when compared to the evidence.

At that point, one has to start coming up with alternative hypotheses that better match the evidence.

[Caution]

9. Try actually reading the Warren report

Seriously. Most sincere investigators of this "conspiracy" actually accept the official report. It is only those investigators who have a book to sell and those who are ignorant enough to buy their wares who do not accept the official report.

I know the "magic bullet" as it has been called (but only by the conspiracy theorists themselves) seems pretty crazy but ask any trauma surgeon what bullets can do post-entry.

[buzzsaw_23]

6. How the U.S. Secretly Fed Radioactivity to Thousands of Americans

Plutonium Files: How the U.S. Secretly Fed Radioactivity to Thousands of Americans

AMY GOODMAN: So let's go through the experiments. The 18 people injected with Plutonium, none of them knew that that had happened to them. But moving on, in a Massachusetts school, 73 disabled children spoon fed oatmeal that had radio isotopes in them, radioactive isotopes. What happened?

EILEEN WELSOME: In that case, this was a nutrition study and they were given radioactive calcium and other radio isotopes.

AMY GOODMAN: Every morning?

EILEEN WELSOME: In their oatmeal, it was either mixed into the oatmeal or in the milk. And these boys did not know what was being given to them, nor did their parents. And in fact, they were told that this was really something nutritious and good for them. They were asked to give blood samples, urine samples, feces samples.

<snip>

EILEEN WELSOME: Basically, they confirmed that thousands and thousands of experiments had been done on U.S. Citizens. That the victims were the most vulnerable people in our society: the young, the disenfranchised, the poor, people of color, people who did not know enough to ask questions. In other words, the subjects were not doctor's children or friends of their doctors; they were people who were vulnerable.

<snip>

Suggested Reading “The Plutonium Files: America’s Secret Medical Experiments in the Cold War,” by Eileen Wilsome. Pulitzer Prize winning journalist.

Read the entire interview here:http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/05/1357230

[Caution]

8. See the above post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4995319&mesg_id=4998533

[buzzsaw_23]

10. The examples are numerous

documented and idisputable in the situation/case I cited. Noone, absolutely noone denies this happened. Not even the Pentagon. But you can keep it from public view. Clinton gave an apology to the people and their families who were unwitting guinea pigs. Didn't hear about that? Came on the same day as the OJ verdict.

Eileen Wilsome won The Pulitzer Prize for her five-part series in the Albuquerque Tribune on the nuclear experiments that the Pentagon/scientists did on numerous people.

Know about the "downwinders"? Google is your friend

The Warren Commission was a whitewash.

[Caution]

11. Does this prove that chemtrails exist?

No. This shows that the government performed some highly morally reprehensible experiments in the nuclear realm. Does it have ANY bearing on MIHOP? No.

In fact, while those experiments were conducted in secret, the fact is that the information got out, because wide-spread large scale conspiracies are VERY difficult to maintain.

The Warren commission was a whitewash you say? Evidence please. Been looking for that for the better part of a decade. Haven't found any yet.

[buzzsaw_23]

12. Agree that no two conspiracies are alike

What it does is show, through this specific example, that there are all sotrs of activities that are being done by our gov't without public knowledge. Some, I would suggest, are done with many people involved. Others require fewer people involved. There are also hidden activities where some people don't know how they are involved as the work is highly compartmentalized.

There are numerous examples.

The trap to avoid is to lump "chemtrails" and David Icke with these other conspiracies. These conspiracies once unmasked are then put into a different category, like crime for example, and we move on to dismissing other "crazy" conspiracy whispers until they are discovered/acknowledged etc....

There are also many conspiracies where the evidence is forever hidden, destroyed, etc...

[Caution]

13. It does not show there are "all sorts" it shows there is ONE.

Each individual theory requires evidence. That there have been government coverups in the past does not mean there are government coverups in the present.

Are there coverups? Certainly. Should generalized conspiracy theories be given credence based on this? Absolutely not. Evidence must be presented. That's all I ask. If you feel that something is being covered up and that thing is specific, provide evidence. If you cannot, then go out and do some research, do some investigating, but do not present something as evidence when it is not. The apparent pan-caking collapse of the WTC does NOT indicate a controlled demolition. It never has and it never will. It is NOT evidence. It has been thoroughly and completely debunked as a credible piece of evidence. That many of the MIHOP'ers refuse to accept shows their ignorance of what the Scientific Method is all about. The real "trap" is to not require evidence and to simply take the fact that the claim is being made as evidence in and of itself.

The fact that some things are never discovered does not make anything else credible. This is a common fallacy that conspiracy mongers fall into and I'm not going to sit here without arguing against it.

[onager]

14. Agreed!

I can't find the thread right now, but I saw something amazing the other day on DU.

IIRC, the thread simply started out as a mention of the planned 9/11 memorial.

Within 10 or 11 posts, the conspiroids showed up and it immediately degenerated into a circle-jerk...with all the Konspiracy Kooks reinforcing each other's pet theories about planned demolotions, the collapse of Building #7, etc.

I'm not about to "nurture" these people. I think Kos had the right idea when he booted the lot of them off his site, and I'm sorry so many of them seem to have found a new home here.

Ironically, all the MIHOP garbage about 9/11 sounds exactly like some of the baroque anti-Clinton conspiracies that the right-wingers were spinning just a few years ago.

[buzzsaw_23]

15. The most often used

methodology used for convictions by a prosecutor is "conspiracy law". Ask one.

"It", by itself does mean all sorts but shows an example of which I could post many, many, many, more.

Of course these slip into the memory hole and the next "conspiracy" is poo-pooed.

These "people" (The higher ups in the Pentagon, e.g.) DO get together in rooms and plan "stuff", (Illegal invasions e.g.)

I would also suggest there are no conspiracies that you or I could conjur up that are as wicked as what our government is brewing on a daily basis. It's on auto-pilot at this point and they're in motion 24/7

[Caution]

16. I would argue that the most abused methodology used by

prosecutors are the conspiracy laws (something which I am intimately familiar with). This is because far too many people are credulous and believe anything they are told. If there was more education regarding the Scientific Method maybe this wouldn't be such a big problem.

I challenge you to post your "many, many, many, more" conspiracies and I'll bet you that I can post twice as many that are whacked out nut job completely silly "theories."

Your argument is actually self-defeating. If there are true conspiracies out there then only by proving them while at the same time dispelling the falsehoods of the incorrect ones (the VAST majority) can we begin to address the problem. By lending credence to absolutely ridiculous theories a position on government accountability is undermined in the same manner that "one theory proves all theories" gains acceptance within the wider conspiracy theory community.

As to your final point, suggest away, but making a broad generalization like that just does exactly what I stated above. Be specific. Provide evidence. Otherwise you are just fear-mongering and causing most rational people to doubt you.

[buzzsaw_23]

18. At the moment

I am not in a place (Meaning at my personal computer that I know how to operate properly) where I could pull up more info to share with you.

Do you not believe folks in high/low places conspire?

Tuskegee
Acres of Skin
Mossadegh
Torrijos
Chavez
Arbenz
Branded and color coded ("Orange") Revolutions- NED, IRI, USAID etc..
NSA

[Caution]

20. Sure I do. In fact I'm 100% sure they "conspire"

But then again my buddies and I conspire all the time.

Some of those items mentioned are known issues. Would you like a list of conspiracies that are complete claptrap and hogwash?

Some of the above were found using good old investigative tactics and then the Scientific Method applied to the evidence found with bad evidence discarded to force the government to release the truth.

Some I'm not familiar with except on broad generalities. What is the "NSA" conspiracy? I know what the NSA is and what they do, I also know that their activity is properly secret due to matters of national security. Chavez? Do you mean the supposed attempts to discredit Chavez through the election that was funded by the US recently? Not much of a conspiracy there, it was pretty much right out in the open.

Seriously, while there are hidden government programs, they are generally discovered over time thanks to things like the FOIA. Government accountability and transparency are great things. Putting out whacky conspiracy theories like the multitude of ones revolving around MIHOP on 9/11 are detrimental to the cause of transparency because those theories are ridiculous on the face of them and they make rational people less inclined to be interested when a whistleblower comes forward. Why do you think the Bush crowd keep claiming "left wing conspiracy types!" ??? It's because the people like those here on DU who espouse this claptrap are undermining the credibility of those of us who believe rationality and evidence are paramount when showing government malfeasance.

[txaslftist]

25. Dude, I don't even know what "chemtrails" are, and don't care...

...the facts that OBL was trained by GHWB, remains uncaught, is admittedly not sought, has family connections to BFEE, worked on behalf of our CIA in Afghanistan;

combined with GWBs own pre-9-11 admission that he wanted a "Pearl Harbor" type event to push his policies and the PNAC's call for a "galvanizing" "catastrophic" event from the Middle East...

Had me thinking MIHOP a long time ago. The fact that "Azzam the American" and OBL both released videos right before the '04 election seemed a bit contrived to me, how about you? OBL's video says basically "I don't care who you elect...your security is in your hands"...

Bullshit. If he didn't care who we elected, why did he release it right before the General Election? If he did care who we elected, who did he want us to elect? The guy running on "I'll save ya from the terra" (terra shows it's ugly head) or the guy running on "Wrong war, wrong time"?

And if OBL is manipulating our elections on behalf of Bush (whose policies, by the way, are making OBL's family rich) now, why is it so difficult to imagine that he was working for Bush pre 9-11?

[Taxloss]

17. Oh, please.

If this was being trotted out to defend a particular theory, one that was backed by evidence and had merit, then it would be tolerable. But your apparent aim is to put all conspiracy theories on an equal and highly regarded footing.

And that's a misguided and destructive tactic. You automatically discredit important work that is done around legitimate concerns - such as around potential vote fraud - by equating it with wacko theories about how the Bilderberg Group is going to kill 80% of the population of the world.

What's more, you legitimise the baseless, unproductive and demoralising influence of valueless "panic panic! we're all going to die when the government launches a biological attack! Woe and Gloom!".

Those threads are just anxiety-masturbation. They do nothing. And you want to elevate them to the level of the work of the Plame investigation.

[txaslftist]

19. Buzzsaw23 is spot on.

Look, no one wants to acknowledge that conspiracies go on, because it shakes one's belief in the reliability of "common sense" and the concreteness of the world.

You use Watergate as an example of how a conspiracy can get bungled and accordingly all conspiracies must be impossible to maintain. Horseshit.

I defend drug dealers in Federal Court. If you knew half of the shit that goes on within a drug conspiracy, things that slip under the radar basically forever, including murders, bribery, official corruption, the purchasing of judges, the complicity of border patrol guys... It would really surprise you.

And you know what? These dealers are stupid. I mean dumb as a box of rocks, and they can put together a conspiracy that will fly right past a sharp federal prosecutor just by keeping their mouths shut. These complicated drug conspiracies involving sometimes dozens of people in different states and countries speaking different languages...these things are for a few hundred thousand dollars profit. The only guys the feds can be bothered to prosecute are the ones right there in front of them, while the real network sits out there in C.Juarez and Tijuana, uncaught, unthreatened and invulnerable.

You think smart covert CIA types can't put together a conspiracy that lasts, undetected for decades? Gee, do the words "Iran Contra" mean anything? What about "Tuskegee Experiment"?

You think the guys that uncovered these scandals weren't called crackpots at the time?

The problem with MIHOP and 9-11 is not that it would be impossible or even difficult for the Rovean Empire to connect up with a CIA trained former Saudi/mujahideen operative to do the deed. The problem with MIHOP and 9-11 is that it is inconceivable that Americans would have both the audacity and the cold-bloodedness to do this to other citizens. If you can get past that mental hurdle, the accomplishment of the attacks is really technically quite simple.

And yes, the implications are terrifying. But so are the implications of Diebold stealing votes and the suspension of the writ of Habeas Corpus. Just because a thing is horrible to contemplate does not mean it is not happening. The words "Buchenwald" and "Treblinka" come to mind.

[No Exit]

22. You bet he/she is, and so is your post! n/t

[No Exit]

21. Wackiest conspiracy theory ever:

That 19 people, said to be Arabs (although for most or many of them their identity has never even been proven by that vaunted "evidence, cold hard evidence" that a poster here demands), hijacked two jets and drove them into the WTC because a guy named Osama Bin Laden told them to... and this guy Bin Laden just HAPPENED to be protected by the Taliban in Afghanistan, which fact demanded that we invade and conquer Afghanistan and the Taliban... and this of course had absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that the Taliban had contracted with an Argentine company named Bridas, disappointing the hopes of an American company named Unocal...

[Taxloss]

23. Yeah, that is pretty wacky. n/t

[txaslftist]

24. And that Osama guy...

...just happened to have been trained by the CIA. Who just happened to be headed by the father of the current president at the time...
...who just happened to become president himself...
...who just happened to have close connections to the family of the said Osama guy...
...who just happens to remain uncaught to this day...
...and it just so happens that the current president is egging on an attack on Iran...
...who just happens to be about to convert their oil exchange from dollars to euros...
...which by sheer coincidence is going to basically demolish the family holdings...
...of the same guy who happens to be president...
...and friends with the family of the guy...
...who ordered the WTC attacks...
...who remains uncaught...
...and just happened to issue a video tape days prior to the election of that president guy...
...which caused just enough of a bump in the polls of the guy...
...to account for a sudden and weird jump in the vote counts...
...on the electronic voting machines provided by the guy...
...who promised the election to the other guy...

But that ain't evidence. That's coincidence.
Sheer luck.

[No Exit]

26. Beautiful!!

Kind of like the Hinckley coincidences, too.

The assassin's family just happened to own an oil company which happened to be about to suffer a huge fine from the government, whose VP just happened to be the father of Neil Bush, who just happened to have dinner with the brother of the assassin the night before Reagan was shot--and it just happened that if Reagan died, Neil's Daddy would've become president...

[txaslftist]

27. It's just coincidence...

like Bush's pre 9-11 statement that he needed a Pearl Harbor type event...
...and the comparisons to Pearl Harbor in his speeches afterward...
...and the calls in the PNAC manifesto for a catastrophic event...
...and the fact that the signatories of the PNAC are key players...
...in the administration of the guy...
...and include the father of the guy...
...and the secretary of state of the guy...
...and a lot of advisors of the guy...
...who needed a Pearl Harbor event...
...with a connection to the Middle East...
...who said with a bullhorn, "make no mistake, we'll catch the guys..."
...who haven't been caught...
...who now, according to the guy, "aren't a priority"...
...and we don't know where they are...

Man, I just wish there was some evidence, though.

[Skinner]

28. Locking

This is a troll. The member who started this thread was formerly banned under a half-dozen other usernames.