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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 11:55 AM
Original message
Seeing Creation and Evolution in Grand Canyon
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/06/science/sciencespecia...

These people are so crazy - they will invent their own truth - we wonder how they could follow BFEE - they are willing to be blind to facts.

<snip>
GRAND CANYON NATIONAL PARK, Ariz. - Tom Vail, who has been leading rafting trips down the Colorado River here for 23 years, corralled his charges under a rocky outcrop at Carbon Creek and pointed out the remarkable 90-degree folds in the cliff overhead.
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Nicole Bengiveno/The New York Times

Two rafting trips along the Colorado River through the Grand Canyon reached different desitnations in the debate over creationists and evolution. Above, a group sponsored by the National Center for Science Evolution.


Tom Vail, the Canyon Ministries group leader, pointed to a layer of rock during a tour in the Grand Canyon.

Geologists date this sandstone to 550 million years ago and explain the folding as a result of pressure from shifting faults underneath. But to Mr. Vail, the folds suggest the Grand Canyon was carved 4,500 years ago by the great global flood described in Genesis as God's punishment for humanity's sin.

"You see any cracks in that?" he asked. "Instead of bending like that, it should have cracked." The material "had to be soft" to bend, Mr. Vail said, imagining its formation in the flood. When somebody suggested that pressure over time could create plasticity in the rocks, Mr. Vail said, "That's just a theory."

"It's all theory, right?" asked Jack Aiken, 63, an Assemblies of God minister in Alaska who has a master's degree in geology. "Except what's in the Good Book."

For Mr. Vail and 29 guests on his Canyon Ministries trip, this was vacation as religious pilgrimage, an expedition in search of evidence that God created the earth in six days 6,000 years ago, just as Scripture says.

<snip>

This is when I find these 'faux christians' nuts - totally wacko
A book that was written 60 years after the man's death - how close to the truth are the facts - as I watch the spin on * - makes you wonder about the spin on the book -

Christian principles are terrific but these religions are evil
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BloodyWilliam Donating Member (665 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. People thump for creationism because they have no concept of science.
Master's in geology? Where did he get it, BJU?

All this stupid crap is really just the matter of squinting at a picture until you think you see a sailboat. Rather than look at evidence and and then draw conclusions, or rather than form hypotheses and then test and challenge them, these people go into "science" with a preconcieved notion of divinity of their beliefs, and they look for any possible shred of proof that can support that notion.
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frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. the flood
Some years back I was the summer tour director and year-round fossil preparator at a large enclosed paleontological site. I could count on at least one person in every tour group saying something like: "Well, now if that's not evidence of the FLOOD, I don't know what is!" Some of these people got downright beligerant when I explained the geology of the site.

Few things irk me more than brazen stupidity.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 12:01 PM
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2. "It's all theory, right?" It WAS, about 40 years ago...
...but not now.

I'm wondering exactly when Mr. Aiken got his masters, and what work he did to get it.
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BloodyWilliam Donating Member (665 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Isn't the AoG one of the scarier, more fanatical Christian sects? nt
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Technically
Its still a theory. We may accept it as fact but in science we never close the book. We always are prepared to revise our theories should new evidence come to light.
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BloodyWilliam Donating Member (665 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Actually...
Actually, the existence of evolution IS an undisputable fact, at least on the microscopic scale. Viruses and even insects have been SEEN to evolve.

The theory behind it is "why?" That's what science does. The why we may never know, but we may never know the why behind gravity. that's why gravity and its causes are a theory, while gravity's existence is an undisputed fact.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. It's a theory, but it's not "all theory" anymore.
The plasticity of rock under temperature and pressure over time has been repeatedly demonstrated experimentally.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. Anyone who says "just a theory"
Edited on Thu Oct-06-05 12:15 PM by NCevilDUer
has no understanding of the fundamentals of science.

And anyone who is a biblical literalist has no understanding of the fundamentals of Judaism, the foundation of their own religion.

ON EDIT

I guess what I'm saying is that fundamentalists aren't.
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
7. I visited the Grand Canyon in August
And said "OH MY GOD!"

It is the most impressive thing you'll ever see.

I'm sure with all the stuff that God had to do, creating a massive hole in the ground was right up there on his list.

I also visited Walnut Canyon and the cliff dwellings, which used to be oceanfront 1.5 million years ago. God has a crazy sense of humor, he does, messin' with those poor tour operator's heads.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
10. Its a fucking job....religion is a means to make money/a living/get rich
sometimes/and ego feeding....attention whores, wannabe the control master/ etc

They should read the bible...find out WHO wrote the thing and WHY...

and for what purpose....who got rewarded, who got fooled, and who died for the phoney wars of aggression under the guise of speading "GOODNESS OVER EVIL".

Its all there... see how the Levites conned the Hebrews to do their dirty work of aggression/suppression/and plunder. Its all there, read to see how they Socially engineered a system that gave them riches beyond their normal means....by brainwashing/scamming/conning/fooling
the peeps of lessor tribes.

The Social Engineering is OLD and its still with us till today.... go figure....
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. good perspective - social engineering
I have read the book several times -
Your right most patriarchial conguerors used things like books and now tv media to influence the millions.

As Gore speech said it is amazing how many of these wackos still believe that Iraq had anything to do with 911 and don't see that * kissing the saudi's is ludicrous since they financed and engineer the whole thing

It is all marketing and propoganda


The book possibly is the biggest on the planet
Wonder if since so many people were following christ - they though a book would be good to further influence

Just hard to trust people who will bend truth so much

They are a blind cult and very sick people

And this new message of * about it all being Islam and intimidation and centered in Iraq - it is incredible how stupid people are

All of this makes me so sick - and it is building to

I am watching and understanding how hilter rose and people started genocide and others did nothing - this is building faster and faster

and when people are in fear they reach for cults to help them - gurus

sick sick sick
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-06-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. To rectify...it takes education of a spoecial kind...build the information
base slowly but accruately and they will understand ... "they" are the conned/fooled peeps used and abused by the Masters of Society.

The cycle must be addressed in fruitful ways...like waking a person from a long slumber...gently and persistent... but it can be done.

The Excesses of the present Pub Masters have resulted in our Planet being in danger, More peeps need to know WHY and from WHO....

Our goal is to expand their Realms...beyond the small sphere they now have...to beyond their collective noses to new and higher Horizons...
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