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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 09:51 AM
Original message
Poll question: Is the abortion debate about controlling sexuality?
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 09:52 AM by benburch

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. bah I don't like either option
It's not about 'life' and it's not about 'controlling sexuality'

It's about one group of people foisting their so called 'morals' on others, regardless of how hypocritical, dangerous, and illogical they are. It's about blind belief in an irrational thought. They aren't doing it to control anyone's sexuality, and they aren't doing it because they have an overarching love for life which trumps all other causes. They're just ignorant, hypocritical, illogical, and dnagerous.
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I think they have severe control issues.
The politicians want to control the voters, and the anti abortion people want to control women and validate their personal beliefs with egregious laws.
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Beaver Tail Donating Member (903 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I Agree
It is a matter of control. YOU got it right on the Mark IMO
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. how about red herring to bait the stupid and...
a very secondary concern about keeping up the supply of cheap labor.
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electron_blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
36. yup
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BringEmOn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
4. They don't care if black or brown babies are aborted
They want to stop aborting white babies. They are very afraid of becoming a minority.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. You sure got that right.

Anybody ever heard them worrying about the Chinese girl babies who are aborted because of the one-child policy?
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. There's much antisex involved, as proven by the "rape or incest" exception
put forward by some. As I said in a different and now locked thread where the OP said he couldn't think of a circumstances where abortion would be morally acceptable except in cases of rape or incest I said:

"What's interesting is that if I wanted to pick the non-arguable circumstance , the one that would give anyone pause, I would have picked yours, where continuing is futile at best and causes suffering.

"But for most anti abortion folk, it's about the sex, and that those who play must pay. So if you got knocked up in rape or incest, it isn't like you enjoyed it so you get a pass at an abortion even if it's a form of murder for other folk who get pregnant enjoying sex. Go figure."
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. Exactly, it's that they want women to be punished for
having CONSENSUAL sex. If she was raped or an incest victim, she didn't choose to have sex and then enjoy it.

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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
33. But when you examine their attitudes to women who get raped...
you hear stuff like;

"Dressing that way she was asking for it."

"It only became rape when he didn't want to have a second date."

"She said 'No' but she meant 'Yes'."
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
41. You got it!
If it were truly about life, then the fetus that resulted from rape or incest would be just as worthy of protection in their eyes. Of course, there are those hard-liners who do believe that abortion should be prohibited in all circumstances, including to protect the life of the mother. But with them, there's no consideration for women as anything but walking wombs. They'll say stupid things like women who are raped can't get pregnant because the woman has to enjoy sex in order for conception to occur (a US lawmaker actually said something like that!). Or they are against abortion but the death penalty is a-ok, as are wars for oil. There are very few people who are pro-life, in the sense that the life ethic is consistently seen in all their views.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #41
75. Gosh, can you believe in a culture where ads, TV shows,
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 10:33 AM by raccoon
movies, etc., constantly talk about sex, sex, sex, there is still such ignorance?

And from a lawmaker!!!! what an ignoramus.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
56. I think "punishment" is key
The same "pro-life" people are often pro-death-penalty.

It's not about life. It's about punishment.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #56
76. Absolutely. nt
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mestup Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
7. It's about several things.
Depending on the person/group against it.

For some it's about racism, for others about controlling sexuality, and for churches, politicians, and pro-life nonprofit agencies it's definitely about CASH. Millions of dollars generated as campaign contributions.
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soleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
8. I think a lot of right wing people suffer from having bad parents

Not bad people as parents as much as people who don't know how to parent. Suffering from a lack of compassion and living in a constant of fear, they live in states of deep denial and force their children to repress their emotions and their true selves.

Feeling abandoned, children of right wing parents, like their parents before them, often become religious fundamentalists and form a fantasy bond with a better parent - Jesus/God.

Along with fundamentalist beliefs, I think they form an over identification with what they view as another abandoned child, the aborted embryo or fetus.

In rescuing the fetus they're actually attempting to rescue themselves from their own bad parents.

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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Ooooh! I never thought of it that way before.
THAT takes some pondering.
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. Ever read Alice Miller?
She's a German psychologist who has written several books that touch on the impact of German child-rearing practices in the 19th century on the ability of so many Germans to be complicit to a genocide.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I'll HAVE to look that up! nt
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mestup Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Definitely read Alice Miller's "For Your Own Good" n/t
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soleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. I've actually read a lot of Alice Miller
My views are definitely influenced by her work.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
53. I think sometimes they feel unwanted
and fight legal abortion out of a fear thier parents would have chose that option was it available to them.
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
9. That's part of it but not all.
Anti-choicers want to control peoples lives - plain and simple.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
12. Damn. Wow.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
13. Chastity Belts For All.......
THEY will tell you with who,with what,when,where and how you will have sex
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
14. If you listen to women who are anti-choice, you find that
deep down, they hold Victorian sexual attitudes, believing that sex is disgusting and downright evil outside of marriage. Therefore, pregnancy is just "punishment" for that "transgression."
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. And if you look at the rate at which their men cheat on them...
you'd realize that they still think sex is disgusting WITHIN MARRIAGE!
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. I've heard fundies say that.
Sex outside marriage is a sin and sex inside marriage is a necessary sin.

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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. That is disgusting on SO many levels.
Ewwww.
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
16. I think it is a control issue
when men get involved. And I don't mean that as a derogative to all men, only those who choose to get heavily involved in the anti-choice issue. The key word there is "anti-choice" which is the real synonym, regardless of how much they try to paint themselves as "pro-life."

Men who want to take away the choices a woman has upon getting pregnant should stay the hell out of the issue since they can't give birth, and it's a choice of the "body" who is pregnant, which is the woman.

Women have had so much shit thrown at them for centuries and have always been second class citizens to these kind of men. They will never allow women to be "important" in any sense, and those that do get to be "important" are either treated like or act like men in order to stay there. Think about it--the perception of a strong woman ruler is one who exudes arrogance, bitchiness or just plain brutality. At least here in the U.S.A. that is the way it's been. In the rest of the world, there are many women who have been able to remain both feminine and strong without giving that up. Golda Meir, Indira Gandhi, Princess Diana--these are good examples of strong female leaders.

For these kind of men, it's all about control, strength and brutality. Each and every one of them has some extent of misogynism inside of him, whether it will ever come out or not consciously.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
22. I believe it's about seperation of Church and State
The morality argument of abortion is based on religious faith.. that you are obstructing God's will and comitting murder.

It is a faith-based decision that the unborn is an independent entity.

And to legislate abortion is to legislate the faith of religion.

I don't buy the inverse argument that killing is illegal is based in Christianity. We know killing is wrong, instinctively and religions have picked up on that instinct to create a set of morals.

But there are many faith-based wrongs that come out of making abortion illegal... so many so that it becomes a decision of faith alone.

We must resist any attempt to blur the lines between church and state. Some day Christianity may be the minority here, and I wonder what the RW Chrisitians would think if the Pledge changed to Under Allah instead of Under God...
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. The day when Christianity is a minority is almost here, in fact.
The trends say about 20 years according to an article I read a couple of years back.

And if you count actual churchgoers, I venture to say that it is here already. There are many people who claim Christianity who are not churchgoers.
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StatsBabe Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
26. I've always thought that it's about rich white people
who delayed childbearing until they were well established in careers and such, not being able to conceive. Fewer blonde, blue-eyed babies to adopt because of abortion and loss of the shame of illegitimacy. I truly do not think the righties care about any-shade-of-brown children.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. You mean, they wouldn't adopt a non-Aryan baby?
:sarcasm: I'm Shocked! Shocked I Tell You! :sarcasm:
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Hi StatsBabe!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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StatsBabe Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. Thanks! I've been lurking for over a year!
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Well, I'm happy to have drawn you out, then!
Let's hear more from you! :hi:
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
27. Turning something into a class one disagreement never works.
Class one disagreement being, where one side cannot explain the other's position to the other's satisfaction.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Actually, quite useful.
If you want to motivate "troops" to fight.

Which I do.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. So it's brainwashing of your own side?
:wow:

A good number of the world's biggest conflicts are class one disagreements. I have no illusion I'll stop something that big by pointing them out on an Internet message board, I just figure that a certain very few out there might be enlightened by knowing this codification of the concept.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. No... It is making the criminality of the other side obvious.
I want US to understand them, but I see no utility in;

- Being able to explain to THEIR satisfaction their position. Their position is not even logically consistent, so I can see zero utility there.

- Trying to get them to articulate our position to our satisfaction, because that is clearly never going to occur.

Wilson's law states; "Communication is only possible between equals." and therefore, we will never manage to communicate with them as they do not consider and will never consider us to be their equals.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. What you've just told me...
...is the kind of thing repeated as a justification for pretty much every class one, the ones we cause, and the ones caused against us.

Like I said, I don't expect them to stop in my lifetime. They were there when I was born, and they'll be there when I die.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Well, then...
Tell me how we, unilaterally, could solve this one?
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. I never offered to.
But neither did you.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. Well, then...
If you cannot provide an alternative, what is the point in criticism?
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. You don't need an alternative...
...to know something won't work (and in the abstract is the cause of a great amount of suffering and misery in the world).
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. Then you capitulate.
Unacceptable.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. On what point do I capitulate?
Don't waste my time or that of others.

You capitulated that you were turning this into a class one disagreement in message #29.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. You give them what they want in re. Abortion.
If you fail to oppose they get what they want. That is how this country works.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. No I don't.
If you fail to walk up to a line of anti-abortion protesters and spray them with submachine-gun fire, do you give them what they want by using another tack? Of course not.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. What a good idea!
I'll have to try that some time! :sarcasm:
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BeTheChange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Try what? Killing people?
What is a good idea?
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. In his defense, he is not advocating trying anything.
The sarcasm graphic would indicate that you should not take what he said seriously.
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BeTheChange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. I guess graphics are loading for me right now..
as I dont see one... thanks for the clarification tho. I was a bit alarmed.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
38. i dont think its so black and white
i do believe some prolifers honestly believe abortion is murder (and i can see why because i hear how religious leaders go on and on about it)


but i think most educated wealthy men (esp those in government)who are against abortion are so cos they want to control women...
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. I agree that they THINK they are prolife b/c abortion is murder
But when you get into a dialogue about abortion with the fundie-fied it will usually start out being about the life of the unborn baby and then will quickly devolve into a discussion of the behavior of the woman. Every time. Trust me, there is a huge dose of woman-hating (subtle and not-so-subtle) that is injected into the rhetoric they get from their religious leaders.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. yes but i have heard pro life women talk about this too
and they strongly feel that abortion is murdering a baby
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Oh certainly. I don't doubt the sincerity of their views.
When I talk about abortion with people like that I try to keep the conversation focused on real solutions, such as making health care and support available for women so they'd be less likely to opt for abortion. I also talk about contraception, and that's when it can get problematic. A lot of these folks don't like birth control because they've heard the nonsense about how the pill causes abortions or they believe it leads to "promiscuity". Which of course, leads to the judgments of women's behavior.

So I agree that it IS about life for them to a large extent, but the other elements are ALWAYS present.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
39. Yes, among other things.
Anti-choice shit heads don't give a fuck about human life but their own, sorry ass. That's why they post bullshit on political boards instead of enlisting in the military and serving in Iraq. No, the chicken shit, ball-less cowards would rather come here and post strawman arguments rather than BE A MAN themselves.

Know what I mean jellybean?
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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
44. It's all about punishing the woman
for having sex as far as I'm concerned. End of Story.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
47. So many reasons
Forcing women to have children as "punishment" for being sexually active outside of marriage.
Sexually repressed fundies that believe sex is dirty and disgusting ALL the time and only do it to reproduce, so no one else should enjoy it either.
Fear of white people becoming a minority in this country. (Too late for that, it's happening, fundies) Re: underlying racism.
Hatred of all those that would ignore their "god" and should be punished for their "sins" by being forced to have children.
Control of women by men that are weak and want the government to do it for them.
Need by the economic machine of masses of the uneducated lower class for cheap labor, soldiers to fight their wars. (children of single mothers; larger, poorer families)
What I want to know is, whatever happened to the Republican support for Planned Parenthood? I remember when in the late 60's, early 70's that this was a pet cause of them to keep white folks from being overrun by brown people. It seemed that all the Repub wives had fund raisers for this all the time back then.


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kick-ass-bob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
49. Controlling sexuality? How about just "Controlling Women?"
that is more fitting.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
50. In many cases it is about controlling WOMEN'S sexuality
But there are some sincere pro-lifers who also oppose war and violence in general.

Pro-lifers are not all hypocrites.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
51. Wow....talk about a push poll! No middle ground provided for the
..obvious choice. :eyes:
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Then feel free to start your own poll. nt
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. No need for him to, because I just did.
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sable302 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
52. Not about controlling sex
as much as controlling Christian voters
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #52
62. You may have a point there...
But what motivates those Christian voters? Controlling sex.
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Beacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
57. Yes, because they want to go after Griswold too
They want to do away with contraception as well
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
59. My vote is....
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 02:23 PM by Balbus
3. This is an asinine poll.

thank you.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
63. i will tell you why. rape incest abortion allowed
i often have this conversation especially with males. they say if raped then abortion ok. no i say. murder is murder. if you see it is murder then you cannot ok it for rape. screw the victim, the woman, she has to suck it up and have baby if raped. no they say. she didnt ask for the sex

then, you just took it to moral judgement. the punishment of no abortion is because the woman ok'ed the sex ergo they have to pay price for immorality. but because she didnt ask for it in rape she is allowed to murder, your excuse for anti choice. that is a moral decision, a punishment on morality
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BeTheChange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
66. Horribly baiting choices....
Im not a supporter of abortion. I wont ever try to stop someone from having one or denigrate them for doing so, but it would never be an option I suggested to anyone. I would never accompany a friend to an abortion clinic.

For me, it isnt about controlling sexuality. It's about respecting life. I do believe that life begins at conception. I do believe that we have choices. I do believe that outside of rape, pregnancies can be prevented thru dilligent use of birthcontrol methods. Infact, I believe in concurrently using multiple birthcontrol methods. Symptothermal Rhythm along with cervical mucus monitoring paired with a condom, diaphram, cervical cap, gels, foams etc is a very cost effective and empowering method of reliable birthcontrol. Yes, I said empowering.. because this is all about having control of our bodies, right? How sad it is that so few women even know their bodies. Does it take effort, yes.. a couple of minutes every day. I think it's worth it to avoid having to make a decision regarding an unwanted pregnancy.

I dont care if you have sex before you are married. I think that it is most satisfying in a committed and loving relationship, but it's not up to me to define a committed and loving relationship. That is a personal experience and decision. You can be in a committed and loving relationship without a piece of paper just as well as with one. If you pursue another form of sexual satisfaction, it isnt up to me to judge that either.. My only hope is that it is one that makes you happy, truly happy and fullfilled.

And yeah, Ill go ahead and say it. If you wont, for whatever reason, invest in yourself and your future enough to make sure your partner and yourself are safe from disease and unwanted pregnancy...then masturbation/mutual masterbation can be very fun and intimately rewarding.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Non-push poll version here.
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 02:40 PM by LoZoccolo
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

As you can see, the number of "no" votes has already exceeded that in the original poll, and the point spread is different than in the push-poll version.
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MamaBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
69. Another Factor
Another factor for the very religious in their desire to end the practice of abortion is to curry favor with their punishing God.

There are some denominations within Christianity that only see God (and therefore Christ, who they equate (and in some cases, conflate) with God) as a punisher, a bringer of justice. And they have been taught since infancy that this all powerful God will weigh each soul according to his own whims, which may be guessed from reading scripture.

In their eyes, to save "babies" is to save these souls for later salvation which, in their hearts, is what they desperately want to believe this God wants. Otherwise, it's the lake of fire for everybody.

They really, really want some points in the "good" column because they know, as all of us do, that we are imperfect beings.

The difference is, in a universe with no punishing God, your flaws are something you work with, try to overcome perhaps, try to learn from. Your quick temper, or your failing to be compassionate, perhaps your greed, whatever. We all have them.

When I finally got it through my head (if not entirely through my soul yet) that there was no eternal daddy waiting for me with a huge strap and a chip on his shoulder, my failings of character were not so frightening. And when my failings started to scare me less, then I could start to be able to see other people's shortcomings as, well, shortcomings. Maybe more like expressions of their own pain and doubt, and not the extrusion into my universe of some great evil that would not only damn them to Lucifer's kingdom, but drag me down there as well.

Hell is real for these folks, and some of them privately believe that if they don't put an end to the sin of others, they will be tainted with it themselves.

I try to see them with compassion, but I cannot trust them.
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mandyky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
72. Abortion won't be the end of it
They want to end divorce and punish single mothers.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. And Birth control. ALL Birth control.
Everything from condoms to pills to wives being legally able to say "No".
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mandyky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #74
77. EXACTLY!
and all the while theyclaim tobe pro life they are women being back tosecond class citizens.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
78. It's about the Republicans' sadistic nature
I think prohibiting abortion is about right wingers making their right wing dreams come true. What are the hopes and dreams of right wingers? Here you go:

1) To have a patriarchal society where women (except for mega-rich women) are treated as prostitutes and slaves;
2) To be allowed to physically, mentally and emotionally punish publicly and privately, other human beings;
3) To have a militaristic, fascist, Nazi-like society;
4) To have a state religion that consists of a pseudo-christianity Republican version (which omits all statements by Jesus regarding being kind, loving others, and doing good for the most helpless of our society).

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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
79. This entire thing is about pushing a 'morality' on others...something
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 12:14 PM by rasputin1952
the "Right to Lifers" can't figure out. After all, if they were'nt such hypocrites they'd figure it oput themselves. One should always take a position back to it's source/base. It takes sex, (in most cases), to procreate. It is the sexual act they are against...unless they are involved in the act themselves, then it is OK.... :grr:

On edit: I know this is the simplistic argument that I have out forth, but my coffe intake has been low this AM, and I am in need of a caffeince fix before I feel like getting into the psychological aspect of this matter.... :)
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
80. Every Person Voting "NO" is Fooling Themselves
That's right; all 5 of ya.
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newportdadde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
81. Option 3: Its about controlling votes.
Subjects like abortion help divide all of us who are the have nots which keeps us from coming together to create change.
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