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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:13 PM
Original message
On ANSWER and their defenders
Ok, ok first off ANSWER DETRACTED from the message, you don't believe me, watch the daily show, yesterday's show on the repeat... Jon did a very good job of shining a light onto that problem.

That said, for most of you who claim we are on a red baiting and bashing mission, and are using the you are DLC looking for purity, I will ask you to do the following

Seat down and study the history of Marxism and Communism and Socialism... no, they are NOT the same animal. Ghere are differences between Stalinism, Leninism, Classical Marxism, Communism, and Socialism, as well as all Social Democrat parties.. for the record the Democrats, the left wing of the Democratic party in the US, is the closest to any of the SD parties in Europe, even if not there yet. Now I am just scratching the surface, so care to tell me in essay form what are the differences between each one of these groups? Oh and I am nice here I have not included Maoism, or Castro, or Kim Jung Ill... Those three deserve their own chapter as well as Lithuanian school and my personal favorite, Ceausescu.

You may start with Marx as he stood in 1848 (the year he penned that famous tract of his with Engels, and the latter day Marx after he refined his theories, with Das Kapital... please do try to keep this simple. I know it is quite complex... that is why I am begging you to keep it simple. References to the Hegelian Dialectic are not only suggested but encouraged as Hegel and his Study of History influenced Marx's economic and social analysis. Please do feel free to tell us how.

If you want to go for the brownie points you may want to use the Cambridge School (historians mostly) and in particular Spencer.

Care to do that... I'll be happy if you even know the difference between Stalinism and Classical Marxism as well as the SD movements... mebbe then you may be able to get off that crazy corporatist horse of yours and stop mentioning the DLC when ANSWER is being criticized for Free Mumia and Cuba Libre. I will also be tickled pink if you can tell me the difference between THEORY and PRACTICE. Now if you really want to go for super brownie points compare this to Adamn Smith hand of the market place, Ricardo's economics and Keynesian economics as they were applied during the New Deal (and why the revolution did not go forht in the US)

Oh and while yuo are at it, also explain to the class, if you care, the role of the NKVD in the small fight between Stalin and Trotsky after the death of Lenin and how that affected the development of Russia in the first forty years of the USSR... you may want to add in that part of the essay, I don't know the pruges of the 1930s and the 1950s... as well as the Gulag system..

That said I am not affraid of Commies ok.. not at all, the theory is grat and MARX'S criticism of 19th century laizze faire economics is spot on, and unfortunately is again quite current... it is not marx that scares me...

Now go on, find a little about this, and after yuo finish your studies, go back and look at ANSWER and do tell me again how democratic they are... ok...

Oh and once again Free Mumia did not belong in this, nor did Cuba Libre or Free Puerto Rico.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. My answer to ANSWER
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

ok, just funning....ANSWER doesn't bother me per se, to each his own. But I wonder if people really understand their relationship to the WWP? Now that is one extreme authoritarian bunch of socialists.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I have to say it, that is a humorous thread
and the post above is an expansion on it

I am also going to say this, many of my teachers in school WERE hard core marxists, yes you read right, hard core classical marxists... and they hated Stalinists, with a passion.

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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. A.N.S.W.E.R. again....
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 11:43 PM by hiley
Why not just read this speech at the link below and stop worrying about it?
We must all work together to stop this war..

The Anti-War Speech Everyone Is Talking About

Etan Thomas Electrifies Anti-War Washington

By Dave Zirin

09/28/05 "ICH" --- Every generation the wide world of corporate sports produces an athlete with the iron resolve and moral urgency to step off their pedestal and join the fight for social justice. A century ago, it was boxer Jack Johnson, flaunting, as WEB DuBois put it, "his unforgivable blackness." In the 1930s, "the Brown Bomber" Joe Louis and track star Jesse Owens took turns spitting in Hitler's eyes, and Mildred Babe Didrikson continued to show that a woman could be the equal - if not superior of any man. In the 1940s and 50s, Jackie Robinson, Pee Wee Reese, and the Brooklyn Dodgers advanced the cause of civil rights through the transgressive act of the multi-racial double play. In the 1960s, Muhammad Ali, Jim Brown, Bill Russell, David Meggyesy, Tommie Smith, and John Carlos showed how mass struggle could ricochet into the world of sports with electric results. In the 1970s, Billie Jean King used a wicked forehand, and took to the streets, to demand equal rights for women, and Curt Flood showed the labor movement - and the bosses - how to go from crumbs to a bigger piece of the pie. In the 1980s Martina Navratilova came out of the closet and onto center court, with her girlfriend on her sinewy arm in plain view of all.

snip---

Here is the transcript. Read and pass it along it has the power to topple tyrants.

Giving all honor, thanks and praises to God for courage and wisdom, this is a very important rally. I'd like to thank you for allowing me to share my thoughts, feelings and concerns regarding a tremendous problem that we are currently facing. This problem is universal, transcending race, economic background, religion, and culture, and this problem is none other than the current administration which has set up shop in the White House.

In fact, I'd like to take some of these cats on a field trip. I want to get big yellow buses with no air conditioner and no seatbelts and round up Bill O'Reilly, Pat Buchanan, Trent Lott, Sean Hannity, Dick Cheney, Jeb Bush, Bush Jr. and Bush Sr., John Ashcroft, Giuliani, Ed Gillespie, Katherine Harris, that little bow-tied Tucker Carlson and any other right-wing conservative Republicans I can think of, and take them all on a trip to the hood. Not to do no 30-minute documentary. I mean, I want to drop them off and leave them there, let them become one with the other side of the tracks, get them four mouths to feed and no welfare, have scare tactics run through them like a laxative, criticizing them for needing assistance.

snip--

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10435.h...


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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. OH GOD!!!!! NOT ANOTHER THREAD...
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 11:28 PM by BayCityProgressive
I left for a few days hoping I would come back to no more ANSWER threads..can we please give it up already? ANSWER was not the only group there and didnt take ANYTHING over..if you dont like them move along..united for peace and justice had a stage too..I was there. Seems like a lot of self righteous people here would rather bitch about people who actually do things while they eat oreos over their keyboards.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. they are obsessed. i am telling ya. i am getting worried...
:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. BayCityProgressive
I don't have a problem with A.N.S.W.E.R.
Just trying to have people read the speech Etan Thomas made, (it was excellent) instead of bitching and moaning...
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. Marx had a few things to say, the rest were pretty much full of it.
But I don't care much, that's not new, I just don't want
all this to detract from our successful anti-war demo.
:hug:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Exactly and they did detract
Stewart shone that light nice and tight... That is why I mentioned TDS, that was a masterful critique of the non message control
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Only because anybody paid attention to them. nt
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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. On the subject
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 11:33 PM by BayCityProgressive
of Workers World Party..just so you know they have a branch in Detroit and had an "All Peoples Congress" a few yrs back and guess who attended? The DU's beloved John Conyers who knew very well who organized it. Much like ANSWER. I have met people from workers world and no I am not a member..they are very top down and secretive i dont even know how you become a member...but they keep contact with Conyers. Can we have thread after thread for weeks on end bashing him now?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Yeah let's go for it.
All this obsessing over a commie splinter groups is so productive.
I'm sure the Bolshies are going to take over and enslave us all
real soon now.
:hi:
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. hope not..
Can we have thread after thread for weeks on end bashing him now?



:nuke:
UL has a request of Congressman Conyers here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. freeper rant re: "anti-american" march saturday :)
did you REALLY watch the protest?? did you REALLY see WHO was protesting?? the communists, the stalinists, the muslums, the gays, etc, etc, etc, it was Not an anti war protest, it was just ANTI American protest..and I have a big problem with that!!! You don't like it, get your ass to France!!

for anyone who believes protests marches don't accomplish anything, i counter with just the fact that they make some of our worthy opponents this apoplectic makes em worthwhile.

discuss...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


peace
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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. hm that
freeper rant sounds a lot like a lot of Liberals here. Which is precisely why I do not consider myself Liberal. if a Liberal isn't the one to start something they don't support it. Not to mention they look at other points of view and oppressed people out of ivory towers sipping their latte. That's why I consider myself a leftist. Liberals only advocate the slightest of reforms..treating the symptoms..but God forbid we get to the root causes of things.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. sounds very familiar - and it is a damn shame that some folks can't see it
when the limo-libs attack lefties it only furthers the neoCON agenda.


more...

peace
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Some comments are unfortunately reminiscent of Ochs: Love Me I'm A Liberal
(From: http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~trent/ochs/lyrics.html )

Love Me, I'm a Liberal
By Phil Ochs

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
Of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
As long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crane?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New Republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democtratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. And that's why I'm turning you in - sounds like a DLC top 10 song ;-)
thanks for sharing :toast:

peace
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #24
45. Too late. Some day I may FOIA my FBI file, but
I'm afraid I'd be disappointed and find it ro be smaller than I like to think.

Thanks for all you have been doing!
:yourock:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. Trust me your FBI file is quite large
just from posting on these boards (Fuck hoover), maybe not as large as you may like, but hey...

I know mine is... for multiple reasons and it has grown.

And no, they don't all have to do with the last five years.

;-)

When I came to this country they opened it, when I became a citizen they did another background check and when I married to the Navy they again did another one...

;-)
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I feel better.
But I'll bet the FBI missed some good stuff....

Our different backgrounds may lead to some differences in our assessments of ANSWER (you reference Eastern Europe (I presume) and see "The State," while I look back on the role of the commies, even the Trots, in the US and see long history of effective participation in just causes, from unions to civil rights and so on.

We agree on most things, and the concerns you raise are valid, even though I think your fear/mistrust of the ANSWER Coalition is unrealistic.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. Actually I did not come from Eastern Europe, but south of the
Edited on Thu Sep-29-05 02:33 AM by nadinbrzezinski
border.

Oh and I don't mind their communism.. even if they are hard line stalinist. Hell it would be fun to get into a doctrinaire discussion with any of them... it could be lots of fun... and I have the education to do it

;-)


My big issue with them (as well as many groups from the right) is their antisemitism, which is on the rise it the US.

When I hear their presentation of the Palestinian Israeli crisis (and it is a crisis) the hairs in the back of my neck go up... I've heard that song and dance before, not only as a historian but as a Daughter of the Holocaust who actually took the time to study the rise of Hitler in detail and his war on the Jews... that took me to how the Ruskies used antisemitism as well, and it is now fashionable and I have heard college students who are Jewish who are afraid to even speak out in campuses.

Now let me clarify, as I have done in a far longer thread... the Israelis are not saints, not at all... no I am not going to defend their actions, such as the wall, or the incursions. I am not gong to defend Hamas either... but I am not going to white wash the history either, for either side.

Moreover, as I have clarified in an even longer thread, when they try to connect the war with the Palestinian issue I have to laugh, given that the war on tera truly has noting to do with that... not at all, as AQs little platform does not have any destroy Israel or cooperate with the PLO anywhere even close to the top of the list... it is all about the Great Satan, which is us... and the PNAC papers have nothing to do with Israel, in spite of Krystol's wet dream he posits in the American Spectator (or for that matter Buchanan's who has never liked Jews or Israel).

That is my issue with answer... to me it is like an african american voting for Republicans, which is akin to Chickens and Colonel Sanders... by the way, the extreme right wing scares me for the exact same bloody reason...

that said Americans in general are not very politically savvy, so it is time for people to get an education of where movements comes from... oh and Trotkytes are far more tolerant of Jews, after all Leo was a Jew (and one reason why Stalin hated his guts, if not the main one)

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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Thanks for the clarification.
I'm not going to try to speak for SLP or any of the ANSWER groups regarding I/P issues, but even Michael Lerner andorsed participation in these ANSWER-related Anti-war events despite his well-documented dispute with ANSWER over those I/P issues. I think he got it right.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. As i said
being a daughter of the holocaust gives me a view of the world that is a tad different than Rabbi Lerner, who is a mentch... that I will give him
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Pissing some people off is both a duty and an honor. nt
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niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
17. OK OK "I hate ANSWER!" Let the Rats eat Julia! n/t
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Hmm my decoder ring from project X is broken...
damn I need a new one...

;-)

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niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. I'm on a pathological 1984 kick right now. Can't stop myself n/t
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. Oh missed it fully
I guess to Room 101 with me...
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
19. Regardless of ANSWER's politics
They organized the largest antiwar demonstration since Vietnam. And I will march again if they organize another protest.

And you can sit at home and watch me on C-Span.
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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. EXACTLY
I love these liberals who sit around ona chat room doing nothing in regards to activism and whining about everyone else that does. Either organize a bigger march or shut up.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Been there done that
insofar as marching, hell I will gladly compare notes in this pissing context on what yuo and I have done to piss off the regime... I am expecting to be in the first round up when the police state finally arrives.

;-)

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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #20
47. Go to Takebackthemedia.com
and tell me I do Nothing.

Say it.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. No you don't
neither do I.

;-)

There are days... what annoys me about this is the levels of assumptions... you know the saying, everybody has an ass_________ it is just that some ... you know the rest...

What can I say, heard that many times over the last 20 years

;-)

And in the case of soem of these folks it fully applies....

The other... the first step to a fuck up are assumptions.

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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
58. "I love these liberals who sit around ona chat room.........."
Edited on Thu Sep-29-05 11:33 AM by moddemny
..... doing nothing in regards to activism and whining about everyone else that does."

Yeah us Anti-ANSWER folks sit around doing nothing, I wonder how I got two hours of video from the march?

Looks like the media aren't the only ones good at spin, lots of people on this board practice it too.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. The march *was not* shown on C-Span.
All we could see was ANSWER for several hours.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. Whatever
I'm not going to let media manipulation stop me from marching. We already know the media is going to report on whatever they want to report on, regardless of what is actually happening.

Florida 2000, WMDs, voter fraud, etc.

And I'm not worried about Joe Six Pack sitting on his ass at home either. From what I saw on Saturday, people of all ages, social status and ethnicity were marching together for two reasons.

To get rid of Bush. And to stop the war. All the other issues became side issues.

And I'm not going to let a side issue prevent me from working on the big issue.

This movement is picking up an energy. As long as we keep the momentum going, there is no stopping us.

We got Bush against the ropes now. He is falling apart. This is not a time to sit around and bicker about the side issues.




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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #31
38. And the movement could have grown even more if "Joe Sixpack"
could have seen all of the marchers.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Granted Joe does not watch the SPAN but I fear if he
flew through it between beers and plays... and saw this... and turned in the morning to oh Limbaugh and heard bout the 30 marchers in DC...

So you are right, the cognitive disonance woudl not hit if C-SPAN bothered to show the march.

Ah yes perception is part of the problem.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #38
44. Nobody said it was going to be easy
The media is not on our side. I'm not going to let them divide us. That is exactly what they're doing right now.
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. If you're in the march
we won't see you on C-Span, that's what all the complaints are about!

ANSWER speakers is all we'll see, poets and lovers and angry screaming Philipino women, we'll see lots of them, and if you like watching that sort of thing, people yelling (why on earth do the ANSWER speakers SCREAM like that?) then you'll love the coverage. But we will NOT see the march!

I can't believe the fits being thrown by people here because we simply reported what C-Span covered. They covered three hours of ANSWER speakers, and NOTHING else!!

The crowd disappeared, so by the end of the three hours, there were a few stragglers left, as one more speaker screamed his way into history. What he was talking about I have no idea, I was still waiting for the March, but C-Span switched to some rightwing BS after that!!

I thought people WANTED tv coverage!! But now I'm seeing people say 'who cares about coverage'. So which is it, do you want TV coverage, or not? Because if you do, make sure ANSWER doesn't get to the mike and the cameras first.

If you think media coverage is not important, then by all means, let ANSWER grab the mike, they will not let it go, and maybe there's a really bored person somewhere who might watch their speakers.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. Read my last post
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #28
46. Then why isn't your complaint about C-Span?
C-Span is the one that didn't cover the march, not ANSWER. ANSWER didn't hog the cameras-they didn't make the choice about what was televised. C-Span did, and you're fooling yourself if you think that they were trying to make us look like a fringe group, but would try to report honestly if ANSWER wasn't there.

ANSWER did a great job organizing the march. I was there. I saw it. The speakers were immaterial. And The Daily Show is a comedy and they would have found something else to laugh about anyway, because it's a comedy. The biggest laugh-and the bit everyone remembers-from that segment is the comparison to the freeper "rally".
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #28
54. I'm with you!
None of this fighting makes a bit of sense to me either. :freak:

It would have been nice to have seen the march, but I guess it was more important for us "armchair quarterbacks" to take our punishment (for not being able to travel thousands of miles to DC to march for Peace) by watching ANSWER drone on and on for hours about everything BUT getting the hell out of Iraq! :eyes:
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eggman67 Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. No, I can't
They won't show you on CSPAN.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. There goes my Hollywood moment
As I said in this post, I don't expect or care what the media does and says. I already know they're not going to say the truth.

But I'm done with sitting around and bitching about something needing to be done, but nobody doing anything. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
22. As I said the other day, I don't know enought about ANSWER
to have an informed opinion one way or the other, but I have learned a few things in the last few days, and am understanding more about why so many people are against this group.

However, I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to hear people better when they are not talking down to me, or being sarcastic. You do include things to look up, and I appreciate that, as I can learn even more, but using phrases like, "if you want to go for the brownie points", "I'll be happy if you even know the difference between Stalinism and Classical Marxism as well as the SD movements...mebbe then you may be able to get off that crazy corporatist horse of yours," "go for super browie points", and "also explain to the class" I find to be offensive, and frankly, it makes it hard to continue reading what you and others have written.

Again, I appreciate the actual info you refer people to, but can you leave out the put-downs? Please. Perhaps many people who don't understand the intensity of some DUers dislike of ANSWER are people like me, who don't know that much about them. I dare say, some like me will probably look into them more, and may come out thinking like you do, but please don't address us with the equivalent of "hey, stupid!"

Peace
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. that was a line one of my profs used
when he had us write essay exams... he was an avowed Classical Marxists by the way, I have used it in essay exams they few times I have written and given them...

Sorry will take them out in the future... I thought he was being rather cute... and my students loved it.

;-)

By the way if you want to start on this... do some readying on any good history of the USSR... there are several out there, some are rather pro establishment and some are rather not, but msot Classical Marxists HATE Stalinism

But my apologies... just one thing I got from this profesor... I wonder what has happened to him and what he thinks of all this mess... I went to school, graduate school, in the early years of Clinton and I do remember him saying many anti bush and anti reagan things back then...



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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #26
36. Thanks nadinbrzezinski
I guess I posted my comment because some of the posts over the past few days have seemed almost rabid. You comments certainly were NOT rabid, but I was feeling kind of defensive. I will look into this more. I love studying history, though my main love in that field is American history, but I will definitely do some more research, as my knowledge in the history of the USSR is rather lacking.

:hi:
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moddemny Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #36
59. The posts seem almost rabid.......
Edited on Thu Sep-29-05 12:09 PM by moddemny
because ANSWER offends some groups of people the way neo-nazis and the KKK offend other groups of people (pretty much everyone). The WWP thinks tianamen square was a battle between students and the army as if it was on an equal footing. They want Milosevic free which will offend a lot of people from the Balkans and even the people who don't live in the Balkans but watched the news every night from surrounding countries like Italy are going to think ANSWER is a bunch of kooks. That's recent history and not even taking into account all the other countries where people lived under Communist tyranny. I respect Nadin's nuanced views on Marx but a lot of Eastern Europeans are not willing to give a communist system another chance because they are afraid despite a marxist's noble intentions there will always be another Stalin waiting to knock off the next Trotsky. That fear may be the result of their trauma, but it is a very very very deep trauma nonetheless.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
27. Just Like Old Times
When I saw some of that Marxist stuff at the demos it was more of a nostalgia trip than anything else,
because they were around the antiwar demos in the '60s too.
I was mostly amused to see that they were still around, since they'd been awfully quiet for the past couple of decades.
Their ideas didn't go anywhere then and they aren't going anywhere now,
but if they want to help us end this stupid war, that is probably the most useful thing they can do.

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Ignoramus Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
32. It doesn't matter much in this context, what "ANSWER's philosophy" is
I am obsessed with the threads about ANSWER, because they aren't about ANSWER. They are about demonstrations.

The issue is not ANSWER or the groups assocaited with it. The important issue is the practical one.

People are saying that they won't go to demonstrations that are organized by ANSWER, or that they want to somehow kick out ANSWER. This is effectively an attack on demonstrators and the movement, and support for Bush, not an attack on ANSWER.

I don't agree with various aspects of WWP or the Socalism and Liberation party, and I don't like the yelling done by some people in ANSWER, I don't like the tired slogans etc. I worry about how they are perceived by the public. That doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. We are doing something bout it
Edited on Thu Sep-29-05 12:49 AM by nadinbrzezinski
and I am for giving answer their table, where they can do their slogans and their propaganda to their heart's content. I don't want them on the stage. The reason is perception.. that said they are on the stage... I stay home because they detract from the final goal fully and completely and play into the Freeper perception war... call me silly, but some of this IS marketing...

And they ORGANIZE it, for many reasons I stay home...

To add given the nature of top down stalinist organizations I also don't believe they will accept just a table, or not having a place on the stage. I might be wrong, but I sincerely doubt it.
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Ignoramus Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. Then you are aiding the bush people and opposing the demonstrators
Edited on Thu Sep-29-05 12:56 AM by Ignoramus
A demonstration is the demonstrators, not the people that buy the porta-potties.

You are saying you dislike ANSWER more than you value demonstrating with your fellow activists.

A dwindling demonstration, with ANSWER on CSPAN, is less effective than a massive demonstration with ANSWER on CSPAN.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. We will have to agree to disagree on this one
Edited on Thu Sep-29-05 12:59 AM by nadinbrzezinski
fully and completely

I do understand why perception MATTERS...

And I will say this again, when the police state is fully established I fully expect to be in the first round up... well ahead of Ramsey Clark in fact... so care to compare creds here?
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Ignoramus Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Dang
I also understand that perception matters. ANSWER will be at the demonstration. For a while probably, ANSWER will organize the demonstrations. A massive demonstration with ANSWER on CSPAN, will be more effective perceptibly than a tiny demonstration with ANSWER on CSPAN. You not attending the demonstration doesn't cause the perception anti-bush people don't support ANSWER, it gives the impression that anti-bush people are small in number and support ANSWER.

Creds? Is it a joke?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Again we will have to agree to disagree
and as to creds it is NOT a joke... I've done enough to have a nice noose round my neck... okay...
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
52. You've had a couple of good threads today.
I never studied Marxism and its offshoots nearly as much as you have, obviously, but I think I'm seeing your point, the basis of which seems to be that perception- our OUTWARD PRINCIPLES- matter.

And I'm totally agreed with you, there.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. Yes perception is critical
It is truly marketing... and branding

I think the way it was handled here in SD was correct, everybody and their sister had a table... and it was funny to see the Farrakhan folks side by side with the Communist party and the DNC... but neither of these three had a spot on the stage.

Where they made their mistake was when they started with the Free Palestine, that is when the crowds thinned....

Many of these secondary issues, even if distantly related, belong in teach ins because most Americans don't know the difference beteween the left wing of the Democratic party or the Right wing of the Party, let alone the intrincacies of Al Qaida, or Hammas or heck lets mention it, free mumia...
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Exactly right. The secondary issues are not a ***RALLYING POINT***.
And they shouldn't be used as such. That's political stupidity.

*Some* of those seeds need to be planted. But they shouldn't be showcased- yet.
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
60. All I can say is Thank God for Good Timing.
Hurricane Rita kept ANSWER out of the media's spotlight and largely prevented the hard left from showing its ass.
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