When you all have your great purge of the "commies"

[Ignoramus]

at your commie-free demonstrations. What form is it going to take?

Will you have lists of approved slogans, or lists of banned organizations? As groups change, will you have a committee to rank the relative comminess of organizations?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. huh?

[K-W]

4. There has been a legitimate streak of anti-communism

running through the ANSWER and ANSWER inspired thread.

[ElectroPrincess]

16. Gee, I'd term it more McCarthyism rather than legit proof that

we all are PINKO Commies if we *dare march* next to thos UNCLEAN ANSWER FOLK.

They B threatin' ing ya know?

[K-W]

22. Yes, that too. EOM

[Just Me]

19. Well, I'd characterize it as neo-McCarthyism. But, who cares.

We should be reaching for the objective of unification beyond criticism.

Hell, we have the indictment of Abramoff and Delay, the fate of Plamegate, neo-con spy scandal, the Frist breach of securities, and so many other exposures to celebrate,...TOGETHER!!!

[ret5hd]

2. why don't we have HEARINGS!!!??? That'd work, right?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. someone please explain to me

[Ignoramus]

7. It's related to the ANSWER issue

ANSWER is a group formed to unite people based on the issues of anti-war and anti-racism. A couple of communist groups have been leaders of the organization, and they have some whacky ideas, like support for pretty much any country that claims to be socialist. See:

http://www.authoritarianopportunistswhocozyuptogenocida... /

People here are saying they won't attend any demonstration that has ANSWER at it. Or, they want to create new demonstrations that exclude ANSWER.

[ret5hd]

8. before Delay's indictment, manys primary bitch...

was about A.N.S.W.E.R. 's (goddamned commies!!!) part in the rally saturday in D.C.

But since the news about Delay, it had pretty much died down. Now, I guess it's time to start again.

[jonnyblitz]

5. it's gonna be an exclusive group of white limousine liberals...

only one topic will be allowed to be discussed. none of that "free the scary black man named Mumia" crap. and there will be loyalty oaths.

[Zuni]

6. this is ridiculous

just because some of us aren't comfortable with supporting groups that cheer North Korea or Hamas does not make us Joe McCarthyites

[Ignoramus]

10. Yay

I'm glad you don't want to exclude people who unite to form a united front against the occupation in Iraq.

[Zuni]

Hey, I marched on Saturday in DC

I just would prefer if groups that are really anti-war, pro-human rights would be in charge.
ANSWER doesn't support human rights when their guys do the killing

[LittleClarkie]

116. Isn't that kinda redundant

"unite to form a united front" -- as opposed to...?

Sorry. I'll reel in my inner copyeditor. Just reminded me of me college days and a quote in the college newspaper about "egg omelets" -- as opposed to..what? Omelets made out of tin cans?

[sendero]

135. Some people..

.... are concerned with what is effective. Developing a message and staying on it is one of the Dems' weakest points.

Excuse me if my "liberal credentials" and my "big tent" doesn't include liking it when the looney left hijacks our message.

Thanks if I don't want to give the right yet more ammunition with which to paint Dems as a bunch of fucking crazies, the very fucking same thing that has marginalized us already.

Excuse me if, after watching our country fall so far from grace I couldn't have even imagined it 5 years ago, I'm ready for a modicum of pragmatism and less nutcakery.

I'm solidly against the war. You have to stop the hemoragging before you can worry about the warts like Mumia, and the chronic constipation like Palestine.

And guess what my friend - organizing a march like that is not rocket science and if the price is having to give a platform to a bunch of throwbacks to the 50s then the price is too high.

[Fenris]

11. "At long last, have you no sense of decency, Sir?"

[ret5hd]

13. from someone who's...

hobbies are contract killing and running a meth lab, i think that's kinda funny.

[Zuni]

15. A guy has to earn a living, you know?

[ElectroPrincess]

23. B.S. ! You extrapolate to the EXTREME - to intimidate us into NOT

demonstrating at ALL. Yes, that's what the wealthy investor classes would like. Make the sheeple AFRAID of those bad ole' commies who kill babies in the night. Boo!

[Zuni]

26. I'm sorry

your post is ridiculous

please bother someone else

[ElectroPrincess]

30. No, you are behaving rediculous.

No matter how much you degrade and bully us, you can NOT guilt trip people into kissing the DLC's ass. Pass that along to Donna, will ya?

[Zuni]

32. who said anything about the DLC?

please stop talking to me.

[asthmaticeog]

False binaries are teh funny.

Wanna see my excluded third term?

[Zuni]

44. that is HUGH

[KittyWampus]

72. snort, this is the most unintentionally funny thread in GD in a long time

[jonnyblitz]

25. then stay the fuck home next time. nt

[Zuni]

27. mind your own business

and do not ever speak to me again

[sniffa]

80. don't ever speak to me again?

if you reaLLy want that, you can have it y'know.

[asthmaticeog]

33. BRILLIANT.

People should stay home from Iraq war protests because they aren't supporters of Kim Jong Il. Nobody should attend unless they're in 100% compliance with hyper-left doctrine. Who's McCarthyite?

[Fenris]

38. US OUT OF PUERTO RICO!!!!!!!!!!!

[asthmaticeog]

53. US OUT OF NORTH AMERICA!!!!!!!!

[Fenris]

57. US OUT OF THE MILKY WAY!!!!!!!!!!!

[asthmaticeog]

58. US OUT OF THE COSMOS!!!!!!!!!!

Top that!

[Fenris]

61. US OUT OF DIMENSION X!!!!!!!!

[Zuni]

40. thank you

It is time to make the anti-war movement a "big tent"

[K-W]

47. Except that isnt at all what he said.

He said stay home to the person who didnt want to associate with communists. Nothing that was writting supports your interpretation that he suggested anyone who isnt a supporter of Kim Jong Il or comply with any ideology. That is pure spin.

[asthmaticeog]

49. He's complaining about "purges" while telling people to stay away.

Spin that.

[K-W]

64. He is complaining about ideological purges while

telling someone to not come if they cant tolerate an ideology. It is entirely consistant if taken at its actual meaning.

You are arguing as if he directed his comments at all people who disagree with communism, when he rather obviously directed them to a person who was arguing against including communists.

[asthmaticeog]

75. Zuni was not arguing aganst including communists.

He was arguing against needless message drift that alienates our allies in the struggle against this war. And he's right.

[Zuni]

76. I never said do not include communists

What i said is that ANSWER has no moral credibility---they are not anti-war or pro human rights if one of their favorite regimes, like North korea, is doing the killing

Look up writings by The International Action center and the WorKer's World Party---defending everything from Tianamen Square Massacre to Stalin (they originally broke off from the US Communist Party when the CP followed Khruschev in denouncing Stalin and because they felt communist support for the USSR invasion of Hungary in the US was weak)

[HEyHEY]

99. Or what, the KGB is gonna get him?

[Hello_Kitty]

73. Thank you

Last time I checked, the goals of those people were not those of progressives, liberals, or Democrats. I don't shy away from the "commie" label because I know it's bullshit. But that doesn't mean I intend to join the real communists.

[ElectroPrincess]

81. Wow, who exactly are the real communists? Hellen Keller?

Do they have fully formed faces or do they hide under our beds at night? This would be hilarious if you were not so pathetic in trying to give us the BIG RED SCARE!

Bugga bugga BOO! Watch out for those folks!

http://www.raggededgemagazine.com/0901/0901ft3.htm

[crispini]

9. Congrats!

You are now an official member of the "DU Drama Queens!" Please continue to mistake legitimate discussion, discourse, and debate for purging and repression. Let the snark flow! Keep at it, maybe you'll get an Oscar nomination!

[Zuni]

18. ...

[jonnyblitz]

29. .......

[Zuni]

46. ...

[clitzpah queen]

129. What is this?

War of the smilies?????

[jonnyblitz]

34. well, the "legitimate discussion" HAS been about purging...

good try though.

[crispini]

42. Oh, please. Most of what I have read has been people

expressing their concerns and discussing the fact that -- SURPRISE! -- people who watched it on C-SPAN had a different impression than people who were there.

This is just more BS DU hysteria, I don't care WHICH "side" you're on.

[ProfessorGAC]

136. A Question, Johnny

Wouldn't a legitimate discussion about "purging" require the ability to actually carry out said purge? People can have differing views on this, but it seems the whole "purge" notion is hyperbole. No?
The Professor

[QC]

92. All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my closeup!

[Just Me]

12. Hey, my friend,...we should let this go,...doncha' think?

Trust me when I say, "it's okay",...in spite of the court of opinion.



It's okay. Besides, we have some big fish to fry and we need a huge campfire to celebrate!

[norml]

14. Nuts!

I agree in many ways with with the unspoken comment of Jon Stewart.

There were too many side issues that I agree with put on the center stage.

Those issues might have been OK to mention in passing, but should not have overwhelmed the event.

There were too many side issues that I don't agree with put on the center stage.

I don't like Communist/Marxist Parties.

I see such Parties as Totalitarian.

Our little UNL NORML/HEMP group was paid a visit by The Socialist Workers Party.

They wanted us to work with them.

Everyone except the guy (english department status seeker trying to look cool by welcoming communists to UNL) who invited them thought they were nuts.

Other than that one visit we never had anything to do with them.

We did sometimes work with Amnesty International and an Ecology group on campus called Ecology Now, however at our events we were always in charge.

We may have mentioned other issues in passing, however we stayed mainly focused on NORML/HEMP issues at our meetings, at our booths, at our rallies, and in our testimonies before the Nebraska Legislature.

Maybe I could help with a few tips from some of our rallies.

One thing for sure, we always had a balance of music, speeches, and marching during the day, and we always had a fund raising concert that night.

We'd get the hall for free.

We'd get the bands to play for free.

I'd run around putting up posters.

We'd make hundreds of dollars every time, and educate a lot of people on the issues in the process.

Might not this be something to do?




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[ret5hd]

24. Hall for free? Bands for free? Labor for free?

Taking others hard earned cash for education?
Sure sounds COMMIE to me!

I'll NAME NAMES!!! I'll NAME NAMES!!!

[norml]

37. As a student group we got the hall for free. We asked bands that would

play for free, either for the cause, or for exposure. Members of our group would provide the free labor.

We were committed.

What's so hard to understand about that?

[ret5hd]

41. What's so hard to understand about a pointed jab done with a smile?

[norml]

77. Did the pro war rally have anti-abortion speeches? How about the flat tax?

Did they mention the flat tax?
Did the NRA make a presentation opposing firearms regulations?
How about the "Wise Use" people? Did they get to slam the environmentalists? Were the voices of the West Bank settlers heard?
If only they were.
Then their rally would've been as ridiculous as ours was because of these bozos hijacking the event to push their own agendas.
That's not to say I don't agree with some of the agendas that were being pushed.
It's just that we lost focus because of too many agendas other than the one that brought us together were being pushed.

[ElectroPrincess]

36. I hope you can recognize THEM ...

if "Communist/Marxist Parties" would get your attention if they landed on your head and set up camp? :curtsy:

Yes, calling everything about ANSWER "commies!" is as out-there as some of THEIR membership.

[norml]

67. I can recognize them, as they are the convergence of the left with the

right.

[ElectroPrincess]

70. no shades of gray?

Take notes fellow DUers for this is what will be shoved down our throats. You either love the right of center corporate selection of the DLC OR you are ostracized and called a "pinko commie."

It won't work this time.

[norml]

87. You know that's not me, and you only prove I am right by making such an

argument that I suppose you think is supposed to intimidate me by calling me DLC.

I wonder why "Right to Life" didn't make a presentation at the pro-war rally?

I wonder why no Right to Bear Arms speeches were made?

Nothing on their so called "Fair Tax" anti-progressive taxation movement.

Nothing from their "Wise Use" anti-environmental movement.

I wonder why they didn't make speeches on every other item on their agenda?

Maybe they didn't want to look as ridiculous as we unnecessarily did.

[ElectroPrincess]

93. Yes, of course you're right. Why? Because you say so ...

My main point is that you are welcome to strongly disagree with certain stances of ANSWER and IF those stances irritate you personally so much that you will not join them in an anti-war march, so be it!

I march with pro-choice women and men during THESE ANTI-WAR MARCHES despite the fact that I'm a liberal Catholic who is pro-life in my personal views. Why? Because that is a personal and family moral choice, NOT the state's business.

This is your choice but it is not appropriate to "look into a gift horse's mouth" as my farmer grand-pa would say, i.e., ANSWER may not represent *all* our views but they held ONE hell-of-va *anti-war rally* and march.

For that one FACT, I will not trash them. And yes, I do not agree with the "free Mumia" crowd.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Hmm I wonder can I have a discussion over the Dialectic

with you? I mean there are differences between Stalinism, Leninism, Pure marxism, Communism, and Socialism, as well as Social Democrats. That is just scratching the surface, so care to tell me in essay form what are the differences between each one of these groups? Oh and I am nice here I have not included Maoism, or Castro, or Kim Jung Ill...

you may start with Marx as he stood in 1848 (the year he penned that tract of his with Engels, and the latter day Marx after he refined his theories, with Das Kapital... please do try to keep this simple.

If you want to go for the brownie pints you may want to use the Cambridge School (historians mostly) and in particular Spencer.

Care to do that... I'll be happy if you even know the difference between Stalinism and Classical Marxism as well as the SD movements... mebbe then you may be able to get off that crazy corporatist horse of yours and stop mentioning the DLC when ANSWER is being criticized for Free Mumia and Cuba Libre.

[ElectroPrincess]

96. Like I state before Nadin, I'm impressed but that's not the point ...

If the "Free Mumia" message pisses you off so much so that you don't want to march with ANSWER, go for it! ... In the interim, I'll get out my textbooks so we can get "real heady and somewhat inane" at some point in the future?

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Free mumia dies not belong in a brign the troops home rally

end of discusion

[ElectroPrincess]

105. That's cool, and IF we ever have the $ and gonads to sponsor

such a MASSIVE rally, we will leave "Free Mumia" off the agenda.

No arguments with me on this particular topic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. Hmm we are working on it

see this little debacle is going...no what am I saying, it is already leading to action.

Oh and by the way I was at the local rally here in SD and when they started with Free Palestine the crowed thined out... though ANSWER was nowhere to be seen. Oh and all secondary issues were dealt with, in small tents on the edges. Got a great T-Shirt and Bunper Stickers... that is how you deal with free mumia... or cuba libre

[ElectroPrincess]

110. I feel no need to "deal" with the Free Mumia crowd, they have their

goals and I have mine. That's what we lack as a Party - tolerance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. As I said there are ways of dealing with it

we had the Farrakhan boys here... they had their table... the Communist party was there, they had their table... nobody told them to leave or go away, or do any of that sort... they just did not have a place on the stage. The communists even had some kids distributing their paper, which I had not seen in literally 15 months....

That is the way they should have handed it in DC... ANSWER gets a nice table on the side.

Nobody is silencing them, they just don't take the stage, the day is about bringing the troops home... why is this so difficult for most people to understand I don't know, but it is.

Oh and do I agree with Farrakann? No... did the kid who tried to get me to take the paper bother me? No, I even had a nice conversation with the kid and realized, damn... for a foot soldier she has no clue about the history or ideology of the Party... what bothered me is... when I started hitting her with Hegel her "boss" took her away for I might make her think... sad when a non member knows far more about Marxism than the foot soldier... she did slogans I did theory... and history... hey that history degree is useful from time to time... but her boss taking her away as I went heavy into theory spoke volumes to me.

[ElectroPrincess]

126. That's cool, whatever it takes to effectively get a SANE message

across. I guess that my main point that I wish to drive home more than anything else is that we have a HELL of a lot to worry about the with regard to already entrenched corporate fascism to be PICKY (do a detailed background check) about specifically those from ANSWER who stands along side us during an anti-war march.

The majority of what some call *evil commies,* are basically harmless IMO "sheltered" types, not your FLAMING blac bloc freaks. Those evil commies that the FBI were afraid of included honorable people like Helen Keller and Dorthea Day.

No, I think the fringes of both the left and the right are *scary*, however, the people I've seen representing ANSWER did not come across as "wild eyed" nor potentially violent. If they did, I sure as hell would not have went there with my young daughter.

To be effective in helping to end this immoral war, we need to focus on the people who already have a stranglehold on our country's purse-strings and want to give EVEN MORE wealth to the military-industrial machine.

First things first.

[Mandate My Ass]

17. Best ANSWER thread EVER!

And I swore not to click on another one no matter what.

[tlsmith1963]

20. Despite My Anti-ANSWER Stand..

...I never said that anyone should be "purged". In my case, I was just talking strategy. I think we need to make the antiwar movement a wider movement if we are going to beat Bush & the neocons. There are people who are more moderate, & they are also against the war. Unfortunately, ANSWER turns them off. We can deny it all we want, but it's true. And if we lose the moderates, we are done for. The Vietnam protests worked because even moderates were involved in the protests. If we decide to only be far-Left, the neocons will stay in power. This country is in bad shape & cannot afford to keep being led by those horrible people.

Tammy

[symbolman]

21. It will be called

Americans.

Who are YOU to tell ME WHO *I* HAVE to associate with?

How DEMOCRATIC ARE COMMUNISTS? HOW DEMOCRATIC ARE THEY? THEY'RE NOT, they are COMMUNISTS, NOT DEMOCRATS..

GET IT YET?

This isn't a matter of Stereotyping someone as a "hippie" or a "liberal", these are people working AGAINST DEMOCRACY and we are supposed to support that?

I do not want to be RULED by Communist ethics anymore than I want to be ruled by Despots like Bush..

These people take SAUDI money, remember them, the ones that KILLED 3000 american when they flew planes into buildings?

YOU want ME to associate with THEM?

Forget it, and that's bullshit about limosine liberals - I'm nearly fucking BROKE from fighting this regime, yet I'm willing to call a bunch of people with money and work with CLEAN people to get a march going we can be proud of.. not filled with bait and switch FAILED systems of govt oppression..

They are ALL for freedom while they support CASTRO..

THis is nothing to be flippant about.

[ElectroPrincess]

28. Yeah, I get it = you and yours love to intimidate and bully ...

It's not limited to the Pukes, you know. Those, "get in line, or else!" guilt trips are the M.O. of the DLC democrats. Always the same players with the same meme. It does get OLD and FAST.

Now's your cue to call me an anti-semite?

[demobabe]

78. Anti-semite?

Many other things come to mind to call you, but not that.

Communists are not Democrats. This is not the Communist Underground, this is the DEMOCRATIC Underground.

DEMOCRATIC Underground.

DEMOCRATIC Underground.

DEMOCRATIC Underground.

[moddemny]

98. "you and yours love to intimidate and bully ..."

Love to intimidate? A lot of the Anti-ANSWER folks are making legitimate arguments, pointing out the hypocritical views ANSWER has that cannot be reconciled and for that they are being called, redbaiters, freepers, mycarthyists, etc. Who is ignoring the facts and now trying to bully (not that's its effective at all) people through slander into another position?

[ElectroPrincess]

106. what slander? I'm merely covering my behind - not on the offensive

[Ignoramus]

31. Practically

If you get green day to play american idiot near the white house. ANSWER will be there. What will you do?

You seem to be saying you don't want to try to exclude people for being "commies". Great. If you both hijack ANSWER's demonstrations, and have your own media events. Great. I'm only concerned if you want to try to exclude "commies" and want to discourage people from demonstrating when ANSWER is an organizer.

[symbolman]

48. Answer can do what ever the hell they want.

It's a free country - if we put up a stage that doesn't feature their horseshit then let the marchers choose who they want to listen to, it's their choice too..

If they want to have Democratic Leaders who aren't afraid to take to the microphones because they aren't backed with a bunch of Trotskites then so BE IT.

Let the people DECIDE, but at LEAST give them a choice, between rancid philsophies and forward thinking people who choose DEMOCRACY..

Loyalty oaths, threats, such bullshit.. I'm beginning to think that there are some hired guns running around here sowing discontent, and you know what?

They really suck at it..

Bye bye now, enjoy reveling in your self abandon - I'll be with the band that screams Bush is an idiot in front of the white house and hundreds of video cameras making a film of it to be shown all over the country as PROOF you can have FUN AND Change the world..

A WORLD PARTY would be nice, as long as it's a FUN party..

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. see you there Symbilman

Ah yes, see you there... even if I have to keep puting cents away for a trip to DC

[K-W]

35. Your anti-communism is showing. EOM

[ElectroPrincess]

39. You want to go nutz and arrest these people like they did in the

50s, don't expect me to be your team member.

You demonstrate a complete LACK of tolerance. It must be hard to please you in most any way?

[Zuni]

43. are you pulling this nonsense out of your ass?

[ElectroPrincess]

45. And I think the SAME of you

On edit: In fact your HATE of "pinko commies" is almost palpatable. Maybe you are in the wrong party? ... the party of lock step "We hate commies!" is called Republican.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demobabe]

79. What, so...

...the Democratic Party is a party of "we love Commies?"

Who is paying you to be here and say this crap?

[ElectroPrincess]

85. That's the point, you're spinning like a top ...

I only said that I was NOT ashamed to march next to folks who were more LEFT than myself. After all, they did the lion's share of organizing this MASSIVE rally.

But it's absolutely chilling how some of you are attempting to INTIMIDATE us into thinking THAT WE ARE COMMIES if we choose to march with ANSWER on a common cause = anti-war.

Guess what, communism is NOT contagious. I come from a long line of proud US Army military veterans ... so no fears I'm going' commie on your seemingly paranoid ass anytime soon.

My point is your blatant disrespect of a fairly well organized march and your complete LACK OF TOLERANCE for anyone who's politics are to the left of yourself. "However, you choose to define it, it's COMMIES under every bed?"

[demobabe]

123. Nobody said Communism was contagious

And we're not intolerant of communists.

The march wasn't the problem. It was the rally and ANSWER manipulating the timetable to bombard the only coverage of the event with topics that had NOTHING to do with getting our troops out of Iraq.

When I originally heard of the event, it was being promoted everywhere as an anti-war rally and march to bring our troops home. It wasn't the Free Palestine or Free Mumia or Free the Cuban 5 rally and march. It was the Iraq anti-war rally and march.

We need one strong message. The beginning of the rally with Cindy and Jesse Jackson and the Raging Grannies was good, but what came after that was pure freak show. That's horrible for our cause, commies or not.

[ldf]

65. yawn....

what's wrong? you aren't feeling loved?

if answer is so great why do they have to trick people to attend their events, take over the podium to spread their myriad agendas which they KNOW will alienate most people, and lie to people to keep them from rightfully walking off in disgust?

you harp about a lack of tolerance....

well, i am willing to set aside my unwillingness to be a second class citizen, harassed, beaten, possibly KILLED for being gay, in order to focus on getting bush out of the whitehouse.

to bad answer isn't willing to focus. but they DID get on tv, and they DID turn people off. it's almost as if that is their sole purpose.

it certainly makes one wonder....

[ElectroPrincess]

74. What's wrong with you that you feel a need to ask about my love life?

You "new way" democrats are a real work of art. I think I may just back away from you folks, i.e., where's my crucifix! LOL

[K-W]

69. ... I dont think I mentioned anything about arresting anyone. EOM

[Redstone]

52. Whoa. What was that you just said?

I've stayed out of this whole discussion, because I don't know enough about this "ANSWER" group to feel like I can legitimately form an opinion of them. And I couldn't make the trip to DC, so I can't form a legitimate opinion about what happened there.

But.

Do these people really take money from the Saudis? If that's true, I can't see why any DUer with even a shred of conscience or ethics could possibly support them. Period. If they take money from the Saudis, they are our enemy.

Do you have a link to supporting data? Please post it if you do.

Redstone

[Mutley]

62. Agreed.

I've never heard that, but if -- IF -- it's true then none of us should be supporting them.

[tlsmith1963]

66. Especially Since Bush Also Takes Saudi Money

If ANSWER really *does* take Saudi money, how can they live with themselves knowing that Bush does the same thing? Wow, those Saudis really have a *racket* going, don't they?

Tammy

[fujiyama]

86. Do you have a link for them taking Saudi money?

I'm not doubting it but I would like to verify it.

And personally I dislike the organization because I feel they are apologists for dictators and even various jihadist terrorist groups like Hamas.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

51. Beware the Red Menace!! The Cubans are coming!!

Fidel and his hordes are secretly preparing to invade Miami in '52 DeSotos and force everyone to accept universal health care, better education, listen to great salsa music, and eat black beans and rice!

Oh, the horror!!

[unkachuck]

101. precisely....

....a friend of mine just had an operation....he owes $40000, $40000 he hasn't got....

....right about now he'd trade all the cheesy rights he has, rights that if he went to use them would only marginally exist anyway, for one decent Universal Healthcare plan....

....if given a chance, many would give up their 10 minutes of democracy every two years for 24 hours a day 7 days a week universal healthcare....what good is friggin' democracy if you're dead?....

[Mutley]

55. So, is this going to divide the left?

Are we going to split into two factions; Cool With ANSWER, and Not Cool With ANSWER? Are we going to make blacklists of each other, and send in undercover trolls to report on what each is saying?

Wait, aren't we all working towards the same thing in the end?

[ElectroPrincess]

59. Ask the DLC ...

I don't go out to INTIMIDATE those left of center to "fall in line"? It's up to the leadership of the Democratic Party. But don't underestimate those of us who are fed up with the investor classes always getting corporate welfare to the detriment of the average American Citizen.

[Old and In the Way]

60. Precisely comrade!

Can't we all just get along?

[Mutley]

128. Precisely!

[PowerToThePeople]

63. It is my belief that there is a secondary battle we are starting...

And we are starting it too soon. First we need to regain the "Government for the people, by the people." After we have stabilized that we will have to address the underlying economic conflict and class war which exists in this nation. But first let us regain the people's voice. It IS our government, they are our employees...

[tlsmith1963]

71. Exactly

First we put together a coalition that includes moderates, because the most important thing is to get rid of the neocons. After that, we can discuss other issues. Hey, I want to discuss economic issues, too. The neocons have made life miserable for anyone who isn't rich. It *does* need to be addressed. But first things first.

Tammy

[ret5hd]

68. they'll use whatever works brother...whatever works...

if that means funding answer, they'll fund 'em. if it means denouncing answer, they'll denounce 'em. if it means joining answer, they'll join 'em.

personally, i don't give a fuck about answer, and (my opinion) the ONLY reason anybody here does is because CSPAN plopped a couple of stationary cameras in front of answers stage rather than covering the (much more massive) march...AND NOW, RATHER THAN BEING PISSED AT CSPAN, ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC...WE GET PISSED AT ANSWER!

doesn't make sense to me.

[Old and In the Way]

56. My biggest complaint about ANSWER

Can't they update their rhetoric? It was corny in the early 70's. It's downright embarassing today.

[Just Me]

83. Now, we're getting somewhere.

I, personally, admire ANSWER a LOT because they provide a broad platfom for numerous peoples' opposing oppression.

The problem isn't ANSWER, per say,...but, rather, the raw passion expressed by the spokespeople. I understand that RAW PASSION because I have felt it and expressed it,...and discovered that, such emotion cannot be digested by most folks.

If I were to advise ANSWER, I would direct them to teach their constituents how to better convey their passion. That learning is extremely difficult when you are a witness to and/or personally affected by such oppressive activities.

However, if we all examine the likes of the most impactful leaders towards social and economic justice,...you will SEE that they delivered their message in a calm, centered, powerful way, no screaming or escaped emotion involved.

Actually, the disposition of those leaders are an example we should ALL take under our wings. Avoid emoting AT people and focus upon drawing them into your humanity,...our humanity. People are attracted to common human passions expressed in inviting, in embracing terms. People WANT to be invited into a vision of social and economic justice.

I believe we should ALL get more centered as a body of human beings inviting the rest of humanity into our fold of advocacy for equality.

[Old and In the Way]

91. Deep six the revolutionary-speak and talk like normal human beings.

that'd be a start. My problem isn't with ANSWER, but if they are a front for the WWP, I'm not particularly interested in supporting their goals.

[Just Me]

112. My Mother and I watched,....didn't even comprehend WWP.

What we commented upon is the spokespeople from around the globe expressing their advocacy against economic and political and military abuse, which was wonderful. That was good. But, there were others, whom I can't identify, who caused confusion even though I am certain they were connected.

I know little about the WWP (and assume they advocate labor? and/or workers' rights? which can't be bad,...yes?).

I honestly do not understand the thingy with "ANSWER,...(as) a front for the WWP". Geez, I could accuse any one of us or any organizations of being "a front" for pretty much anything under the sum. I mean, C'mon.

ANSWER is a b-r-o-a-d coalition of many orgs and peoples and passions and purposes. I embrace that 'cause it's the STUFF that makes democracy REAL.

[Old and In the Way]

124. Here's a very good article about WWP from David Corn

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/50/news-corn.php

"This was no accident, for the demonstration was essentially organized by the Workers World Party, a small political sect that years ago split from the Socialist Workers Party to support the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956. The party advocates socialist revolution and abolishing private property. It is a fan of Fidel Castro’s regime in Cuba, and it hails North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Il for preserving his country’s “socialist system,” which, according to the party’s newspaper, has kept North Korea “from falling under the sway of the transnational banks and corporations that dictate to most of the world.” The WWP has campaigned against the war-crimes trial of former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic. A recent Workers World editorial declared, “Iraq has done absolutely nothing wrong.”"


Draw your own conclusions. I really don't even have a bone to pick with ANSWER, I think I have common ground with many of the causes. But this would certainly explain why Democrats won't be seen on a stage that's associated with the WWP. I think their brand of socialism is a bit too extreme and authoritative for my tastes.

[ElectroPrincess]

127. Yes, but right now, unlike David Corn,

I'm not going to get "righteous" about the folks who want an end to the KILLING in the Middle East.

You're right that the message gets diluted with socialistic blather during ANSWER rallies. However, unlike "elitist Democrats" such as the likes of David Corn, I will work with the non-violent left in the areas where we can concur. Two of those key areas are "Anti-War" and the promotion of "Universal Health Care."

I DO instead, FEAR the entrenched government cronies much more than the little old ladies, old men and not-worldly young people who seemingly are throwbacks for the "peace and love" gatherings in the 60s. Nope, I do not fear the vast majority of the ANSWER people I've come in contact with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. The problem is that their leadership is NOT

peace loving and idealistic. They are hard core Stalinist who would not mind runnig a Gulag or two... in that respect they are falling from their edge and stretchign hands and touching the John Birchers... that is not the image they want you to see... and they also suport the N.Korean regime, why you will not see any Democratic leadership sharing the stage... and as is they hijacked the event from United for Peace and Justice...

Most Commies, don't scare me, for most American commies are exactly what yuo describe... the leadership of these guys, does... if they managed to get into power, somehow I suspect they would crack down even faster than our current fascists, who have not because they are essentially quite bad at it. Was looking for another word... that is why I am begging people read, find out, get informed... they are not harmless.

Oh and the best place for them is a table, off to the side, and away from any bloody microphone. Now knowing the nature of hard core stalinist organizations... they won't take that... sorry but that is part of the reality. In fact I would not be too surprised, after readying Pitts account, that United for Peace and Justice walked out becasue they had a schedule which IA violated... not that I could prove this, but would not surprise me.. they were NOT on the schedule according to the UPJ schedule.. this was suposed to close with Cindy at 12:30 and why she said, see you over there at three... (concert)

As is I might tell you that after this, somehow I doubt many people will fall for the bait and switch... and at this point they should just live with the fact, people are unto them.



Oh and letting them have a table is as far as my compromising with IA.

[Old and In the Way]

82. I'm thinking maybe I should start my own splinter group

American Anachronistic Revolutionary Party. AARP for short. I need to work on the agenda, though. It'll definitely encompass the following themes:

Peas and just us.
Non-Worker's Rights
Israeli Occupation of Tel Aviv
Free Screetch Movement
Discrimation of the Disjointed Disabled.

Do I need a steering committee, though? If so, Rack and Pinion or Recirculating Ball?

[Just Me]

90. *LOL*

Luv ya!!!

Seriously, though, as I have previously posted,..."Where is the liberal tolerance?"

I understand the concerns with effective communication. However, the persistent destruction and abandonment of folks and groups and orgs is just,...NOT LIBERAL. I've read vicious attacks against MoveOn, Soros, Fonda, Andy Stephenson (loving your soul), Will, me and other DUers, Cindy, the Peace House, etc. etc. etc.,...and those attacks are such an obvious violation of anything comparable to "liberal" that I am convinced there is an orchestrated imposition of "ideas".

At any rate, all of life is NOT a political game in spite of those who want to impose that psycho-belligerence on the rest of us DECENT, CARING HUMAN BEINGS. Yes, we have to cope with that hell-pit of humanity,...but, we are not RULED by that game 'cause we are larger than that sewer.

[Old and In the Way]

95. Liberal tolerance?

I see injustice everywhere I turn. But until we take back control of government, nothing changes...in fact, it gets worse. How do we take over the reins of government? By convincing a clear majority (so large a majority as to be impossible to allow vote fraud to occur) to vote Democrat. How do we do that? By appearing more centrist, moral, and American than the criminals in charge today. Counter-intuitive, I know.

Once we take back the reins of power, we drive the Party further left. As more people see the tangible benefits of a progressive agenda, the agenda will sell itself. Party Discipline, comrade.

[Just Me]

109. That is the insanity: OUR people are being exploited rather than,...

,...represented. OUR people are being subjected to the same form of exploitation that the government-backed U.S. multi-national corporacrats have been IMPOSING upon weaker peoples abroad.

Democracy has zero-tolerance of exploitation of humanity's weak and/or oppressed. Period.

Democracy is all about EMPOWERING a people,...the absolute rejection of exploiting and disempowering those who are supposed to hold the reins on those who prove to abuse wealth and/or status.

[Old and In the Way]

122. Excellent!

Revolution-speak! Extra points for lots of "exploitations". You could have been on stage Saturday. I am totally clueless what you just said. And I have a Poly-Sci degree.

Who is "our people"? There aren't enough "our peoples" voting to win an election by ourselves. We need "no one's peoples" and, even better, "their people" to vote "our people" into office.

You need to frame your conversational english in regular people's language. You want to connect with 2% of the population, keep speaking in those terms. The rest will either have no idea what you are talking about or assume your a commie and stop processing your message.

[JanMichael]

84. It'll be sponsered by Walmartzilla and the WTO I suppose.

Count me outta that one.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

88. woe is you the persecuted

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

111. I know I'm an asshole.

always have been really.

i'm sorry, but are you persecuted too? didn't mean to leave you out. That must have felt doubly persecutory, I really feel horrible.

[norml]

89. Free the Armed Revolutionary Heros, and the Clinic Bombers!

Left = Right, at the extremes.

[ElectroPrincess]

97. Yeah, and Go Big Red!

I'm talking about the Nebraska Cornhuskers (UNL College Football team) NOT those Commie Bastards. ROTFLMAO

[norml]

117. I've never followed sports very much. About the only sports I enjoy

watching are the ones that involve beautiful girls jumping around.

[ElectroPrincess]

125. Oh, I loved college football while attending the University

of Nebraska at Lincoln. Nope the WOMEN cheerleaders in college didn't do anything for me, but those memories of watching some of da guys in the huddle ... well, let's just say that some of them had nice tight backsides.

Nope, I'm not shocked you like GIRLS not choosing to use the terms gals or women. That speaks volumes in my book since I burned my training bra for women's equal rights.

[HEyHEY]

100. I don't know, that whole system smacks of 1930s USSR

[incapsulated]

104. Help, help, I'm being repressed!

[LeftyMom]

114. Oh for fucks sake

I've tried to stay out of the whole ANSWER flap but your post really needs a response.

The problem isn't ANSWER's communist tendencies, which they're welcome to. I really don't give a shit if they whack off to the little red book and wipe up with the flag, they're entitled to thier own political beliefs. The problem is that when ANSWER is a major organizer of a rally the press and to some extent the public interprets a seamlessness between the protesters and our cause and ANSWER's agenda.

Put simply we can find better representatives for the anti-war movement and progressive activism in general. There's no reason that we the anti-war majority should lend ANSWER legitimacy if they can't be trusted to use that legitimacy wisely.

Nobody's saying you can't post at DU if you want to free Mumia or save the whales or stop global warming or free Palestine. All that's being said is that it may be politically advantageous to to encourage a more focused and perhaps somewhat more moderate organization arrange future demonstrations.

[Ignoramus]

118. The point is whether you will unite or not

This thread is not about ANSWER, it does not argue that you should agree with the groups involved with ANSWER, it's about demonstrations. The only large demonstrations in a while have been organized/hijacked whatever by ANSWER. The demonstration is the demonstrators, not who gets the permit.

I read all these people saying they won't "support" ANSWER, or they want to "shun ANSWER" or "kick out" ANSWER. Or people say outright that they won't go to a demonstration that is organized by ANSWER. Or they say they can start their own demonstrations without ANSWER.

So, this thread is asking the question: what form is this shunning going to take? If you are going to start your own demonstrations, how are you going to keep ANSWER out?

Do you hate "commies" more than you oppose Bush? Do you hate the "commies" more than you support your fellow activists?

I suggest adding to the demonstration. Hijack it, if you must. Don't try to exclude "commies" or stay home because you don't support "commies".

[LeftyMom]

120. I'm not saying to stay home

I'm saying that some more reputable group (MoveOn, PDA, heck even DU) could do a better jobor representing the anti-war movement. I don't give a shit if ANSWER shows up, I just don't want them percieved as speaking for me or for progressives as a whole.

When we march in thier demos we lend ANSWER a legitimacy thier platform does not suppourt and thier radical and dicator friendly politics reflect badly on us.

[Ignoramus]

121. Good

ANSWER will probably be at any big demonstration. ANSWER will probably organize/hijack more large demonstrations. ANSWER will be on CSPAN.

If there is a massive demonstration, the perception will be that a large number of people oppose Bush and they will be associated with ANSWER if people watch CSPAN.

If people don't go to the demonstrations, the perception be that a small number of people oppose Bush and they will still be associated with ANSWER if people watch CSPAN.

Given that Bush agenda opponents will be associated with ANSWER, either way. It's better to have the perception be that there are a large number of Bush agenda opponents.

[ElectroPrincess]

130. Then tell THEM (Democratic Party, MoveOn.org, etc.) to show us HOW!

Otherwise the MASSIVE marches will be sponsored by ANSWER. Why? Because they kick a** in the organizing department. Perhaps if you are unafraid of "catching communism" some of our gutless democratic strategists may take the time to study how this group EFFECTIVELY networks.

Face it, we have been impotent so far at orgainizing a TRUE anti-war march without the other LEFTY groups.

Instead of openly disrespecting ANSWER, or the promotion of TRENDY antidotes for *dealing with* them (commie bastards), how about we honestly meet with each other (your people with my people) and agree on a FOCUSed agenda to *first* help get this Iraqi Occupation to end?

[NuttyFluffers]

134. wow. learning from ANSWER how to throw a rally. that'd be smart.

that's an absolutely brilliant idea. obviously they delivered the numbers, so obviously they're doing something right.

but to *learn* from ANSWER, instead of bitch and moan... it's like an evolutionary leap you're talking about! wonder if the democratic party or dlc will ever have detente and learn from their tactics... aha, who am i kidding.

hmm. some don't like answer, but they produce the results -- the numbers -- so a sensible person would say let's learn from them so we don't have to be dependent on them. stop it, stop it, stop it, monty! you're making sense! my brain is hurting! O_o

[clitzpah queen]

132. A minor problem with MoveOn "representing" the anti-war movement

Isn't there? MoveOn did not even send out any emails advertising the Sept 24th march. MoveOn is suppressing discussions about Iraq for fear of alienating that sector of their membership that does not believe in rapid withdrawl. Anti Iraq-War has Not been their focus.

[ElectroPrincess]

133. Thanks for the Info :-)

You provide an interesting insight into the Democratic people who are against immediate withdrawal.

I hope and pray that these good people "see the light" before we lose 58,000 + of our best and brightest (our beloved children) to this immoral and illegal occupation of a sovereign land.

[tkmorris]

119. I agree completely with LeftyMom

I won't even add anything except to say that if you really want an effective, focused, anti-war movement then having (allowing? whatever) ANSWER organize your most attended rallies is not very useful. Which is of course what I interpreted her to be saying in the first place so I guess I've added nothing after all.

I gotta tell ya though, this thread has so much bad argument, downright silly tirades, hyperbole, prima donnas, trolling, flamebait, wounded egos, and rage disguised as rational discourse it's downright embarrassing. What the hell is going on around here? I guess we've got to sink a good deal further to realize we are all on the same side here.

[T Town Jake]

115. You chose your DU moniker wisely....

n/t

[Moderator]

137. Locking...

This is flamebait and this conversation
has run its course.