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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:43 PM
Original message
"Footing the bill" for other people's children
I'm curious about something I noticed in another thread that really disturbed me. Do those without children here really believe that it's unfair that their taxes go to education and playgrounds?

I'd honestly like to know if it's just an isolated opinion. For those who resent that their taxes go towards "other people's children," please explain to me how this country would function if it was everyone for themselves.

I hope this won't turn into a huge flamewar; it seems to be a topic that people aren't able to disagree on without calling names and becoming enraged. If you can, please try to disagree with me civilly.

Thanks.
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AverageJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's the social contract
We all pay for services that serve the greater good, whether we directly benefit or not. Anybody who thinks otherwise doesn't understand basic civics.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. i'm guessing this is the isolated opinion
while we are childless, the hub & i are enthusiastic supporters of the public schools, reason, it greatly increases the value of your house & this does put money right back in my pocket when it is time to sell my house

good schools are good for all, even if you're a completely selfish sob
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Not Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. I agree, but
interestingly, I have found a lot of people who find it somewhat incredulous that I would volunteer my time on the school board with no children in the system. And these are people who should 'get it'.
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charlyvi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm single. no kids
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 01:47 PM by charlyvi
And I don't mind paying taxes for schools, health care, etc. The reason being I want the next generations to be educated sufficiently to never elect an administration like the present one again.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. I educate their kids.. they help me out in my old age
we all do better, when we ALL do better

achingly simple
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SaveAmerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
129. Well said, I know some who don't drive but I'm guessing some of
their taxes pay for road repairs, etc. How 'in the bedroom' would the government have to be to tax people according to their daily usage of America. You're right, simplicity is the key.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. don't have children, never will
and i think public education is incredibly important and benefits everyone.

i also think that people should consider whether they can afford children before having them, which is a separate issue.
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dretceterini Donating Member (329 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. I wish people who choose to have children...
were a lot more responsible about it. Here in Utah, the average family size is bigger than anywhere else in the US. The LDS religion, to some degree, supports this.

There is a joke that has become pretty standard around here: Mormon women should stop having children at 39; 40 is just too many. :)

Perhaps there should be some sort of graduated tax based on the number of children a family has. Maybe then people would think more about the responsibilities involved before having them!
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. yeah, i don' t understand the tax deduction thing
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 01:59 PM by kineta
for more than a certain number of children. i suppose it worked when the population wasnt't 6+ billion. it's a complex issue though.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. I wish birth control and sex education was more available
and certain churches stopped pushing the procreation stuff.

We also need to get the fundamentalist Christian attitudes OUT of our policies and programs.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'm permanently childless and have no problem with my tax dollars
going toward schools and playgrounds.

Oil wars and corporate welfare? 'Nother story entirely.
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jedicord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. Everyone's tax money goes to something they do not use.
"Other people's children" can also be "other people's medical needs", "other people's highways", "other people's parks", ad infinitum.

Flame away at me, but using children in this argument is just plain BS.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
133. the inequality has been exacerbated in recent years
Property taxes and schools are not such a big issue, but they become another straw on the camel's back. A few years back there was all this congressional and media hubbaloo over the "marriage penalty" but apparently there is no similar outrage over the "childless penalty".
Consider my 2002 tax return. My AGI was $10,198.47. My income taxes were $249 minus an earned income credit of $68, and congress regularly considers eliminating the EIC for childless people.
Compare that to a single parent with one child and about twice my income $20,000. Their EIC is $1474, and their income tax bill is $108, assuming they take nothing on line 45 - credit for child care expenses, and assuming they do not put $1100 in an IRA.
Then look at a family of four with $35,000 income and their tax bill is $469. The situation is worse today too, since the child tax credit has gone to $1000 per child (a move which only helped couples with income over $30,000) AND the credit has been extended to families with incomes over $125,000. Ah well, at least I do not have any children who will have to pay off the deficit.
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moc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. Supporting children supports society
There is no more basic truism than this. Societies which invest in their children and their children's well-being increase productivity in adulthood, thereby benefiting society as a whole.

FWIW, I can give you citations out the whazoo if anyone disputes these facts.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. It certainly is for the common good.
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 01:50 PM by ultraist
One need only to consider the correlation between crime and lack of education. A lower crime rate benefits all.

Pay now, or pay MORE later. Education is one of the best investments we can make, as a society.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. Don't have children
and at 54, very unlikely to have any.

I never object to paying for better schools and playgrounds-in fact, just this past week I voted in the local school election asking about tax levies, and voted for the higher rate.

My philosophy is that we are all one, interconnected, and what I do for one affects all the others. Now if I know that a school district wants funds so they can do something I deem harmful to kids (like teaching creationism instead of science), I will not support that funding initiative. But it wouldn't be based on the argument of "other people's kids".
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
10. I certainly hope that no Dem is that selfish!
I'm glad to pay taxes that go to feed children in poverty, pay for medical care, and support public school systems.

What have we become if we are so selfish as to not care for our most deserving and vulnerable of our community?
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
12. Those people who complain forget
that they as children used those playgrounds, parks and schools and other people without children helped pay for the facilities.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
69. Exactly, Shraby, you took the keystrokes out of my hands.

These people complaining probably went to public schools themselves.

I don't have children, but don't mind supporting public schools.
Illegal, immoral, imperial wars--I have a problem paying taxes for that.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
13. The same argument would be for the elderly
"I don't use Medicare, I shouldn't have to pay for it"...and it could go on an on.
A society does not or should not directly impact one person greater than another...it should benefit all.
You can't possibly expect to use all the services that society has to offer...but you should be able to use what you need.
At least...that is how it is in Horse's head. :silly:
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
82. Well, not quite the same. Similar lines, but
with the comments about the elderly, one difference is that everyone who is not elderly will be elderly at some point in their life (unless they die young).

But not everyone without children will have children.

The difference is that being elderly is an inevitablity.


But that doesn't take away from you point.

Like I said, its along the same lines of thinking.
Just, different.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #82
88. Yet...everyone was a child once too
:)
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #88
110. Yeah but they aren't anymore
So they don't care. They got theirs, now they don't want to contribute to the very same system that helped them.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. I think that it is incumbent upon any civilized society to provide
for that society's future. Therefore, the society has to make certain that future citizens are well educated and well cared for. This just isn't even a debatable point as far as I can see. Every member of society has a vested interest in the welfare and education of every other member, otherwise we aren't a single "society", but, rather, a geographically grouped collection of "societies". This is a real "no-brainer"...
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
15. The country wouldn't function.
Societies need educated people. For some bizarre reason, many people don't understand that it was someone else's child that built their car, toaster, road, building etc. and that without educating other peoples children, they wouldn't have those things.

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. If they are conservatives they do.
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 01:51 PM by Cleita
I even know old people, whose children are grown, but who attended free public school while they were at home, say that they shouldn't have to pay for other people's kids because their kids are grown. :eyes:

It happens with young conservatives too. Younger people don't think they should have to pay for Social Security or Medicare because they say their grandparents seem to be fine. It doesn't occur to them that maybe the reason Grandma and Grandpa are fine is because of Social Security and Medicare.

:banghead:
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Catbird Donating Member (633 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
18. Childless willing taxpayer
I don't think of my taxes as going to "other people's children." I think of them as going to my society and the education of its future citizens. Besides, I went to public schools (mostly) when I was a child. This is payback time.

I can find lots of things that I'm upset that my taxes are used for, but this isn't one of them. Education is a much better investment than payoffs to Halliburton and Brownie, for example.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
19. No. Not at all!
But I don't think I should be eligible to get a ticket if I (to use an example) wanted to sit for a moment and remember what it was like to be a kid, maybe spin myself once on the merry-go-roud or sit in a swing for a spell.

I certainly don't think anyone should be ticketed simply for sitting on a bench for a spell, and I don't believe publicly-funded playgrounds and benches and so forth should exclude adults.

There's a child-only playground in my area, and it's been empty- 100% deserted- every time I'm there. There isn't any place there for adults, even for supervision, so it sits- paid for, and empty.

I think that's what has vexed so many on that thread.
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LizMoonstar Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
42. wtf? they're ticketing adults for using playgrounds?
i'm at a loss. i love playgrounds. what is wrong with people?
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #42
63. See my response #49 below
At first glance, it does sound shocking, but I think the law isn't that unreasonable, given the reasons I mention.

I think in the case of the woman who was ticketed, it was ridiculous. The cops should have just pointed out the sign saying that this area was reserved for kids and their parents and I'm sure she would have understood. Instead, they were looking for someone to ticket, either out of arrogance or just not thinking; who knows.

Now, granted, I love swingsets myself, and I think they should have some for the big kids, too. :)
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
49. Yes, this was the thread that surprised me
Maybe people weren't meaning to make that inference, but it was there, and one poster said it specifically.

I agree (and agreed on the thread) that it was absurd that the woman was ticketed, but I just happened to disagree that it was a fascist law and a sign of the black helicopters coming to get us.

I think it's also a matter of living in a big city, where I guarantee you (in SF anyway), if a single individual who is not there with a child is sitting on a playground bench, nine times out of ten they are not there for innocent reasons. Maybe the law itself goes overboard to stop the problem, but it is a very real problem, and doesn't indicate that parents are just too lazy to watch their kids. Pedophiles, as well as drug users, drunks, and generally scary people frequent such areas in big cities, and even a few feet away from your kids, something can happen. And these "kids and parents-only" zones are always small spaces surrounded by much larger open spaces with plenty of benches for everyone.

That's why I found the law reasonable. In many cities, there are just so few places for children to play...why can't they have there separate spots?

Thanks for responding. I appreciate your view.
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Seansky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
21. well, I don't have kids, and the way I see it is that AS LONG AS kids
get educated, I'm more than happy to do everything in my power to help, including paying higher taxes since we'll need educated adults to keep a healthy economy for when I'm older and can't longer work.

BUT KIDS AREN'T GETTING MUCH OF AN EDUCATION ANYMORE..Why do I have to cover the cost for schools teaching intelligence design? I might as well volunteer as a teacher. that would be better contribution to the future of our kids...and our older years...

Sorry for the caps...
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. my kids are getting a good education. i have been in two public
schools the last year. for 6 years i paid for private school and taxes to public school.

i hope you feel better knowing there are a lot of good school adn teachers, educating a whole lot of kids, seeing you arent experiencing the public school system since you have no kids in it
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Seansky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. I volunteer for a youth at risk org. in my state...I visit some elementary
school, attended mostly by Mexican kids. Not too sure everyone is receiving the kind of education your kids are, but I'm glad yours are.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. cool. that is good ot hear. i just have to put a lot of the responsiblit
on parents. i know what you say. and lower income community the lack. my children went to the school in our district. poor. lots of rental. kids in and out thru out year. i certainly see the issues facing this school, i also saw the hard work of the teachers. my boys teachers were just thrilled i worked with kids at home, and stayed connected to teacher, and informed. they dont get a lot of that in this area

had kids moved out of district to a new and rich school, that is so poor it doesnt have books. again, it is the parents staying on top of what is happening in the kids day, and making sure things get done, even without books

but no schools have i seen a collectiveness of noncaring teachers or principles.

now i have not been in big city, really poor schools either
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #41
61. "A new and rich school that is so poor?"
had kids moved out of district to a new and rich school, that is so poor it doesnt have books
What do you mean by this?

If you haven't seen the institutionalized classism and racism that goes on in public schools, you are not looking close enough.

I've dealt with public schools for 10 years and I've seen a lot of it. And yes, the teachers/faculty perpetuate it.

That's not to say, that there are not good teachers, because there are. Some are very dedicated and understand that many parents cannot afford to help out at the school, they are too busy working and trying to survive.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. i understand ultraist all the dynamics in the school
working and poor parents yada yada. i am fighting for the help to the poor woking family fighting so hard to put food on the table, adn cant we give them a little help in after school programs, where kids will be fed, tutored in homework and have company, until parents come home. instead of going home to an empty house

the parenting issue i dont just give to the poor and working. the private school i had kids in, had the same issue, parents not connected to kids and helping at home with the kids work and behavior. i dont think this is a class issue

you sound harsh on the public school system, as i say, i can only go off the three i have experienced. a private, a poor district and an upperincome district. i cant praise enought the admin and teachers in the poor public school, and their caring. they dont want those kids to go thru uneducated. jsut silliness. they are fellow humans, not uncaring monsters

you can only go off your experience

what i mean a new and rich school that is poor. all money went into the building of the school. has no money for books, supplies, field trips yada yada. it is poor. they are going to need a couple years of fundraisers and such before they are going to be able to get all this stuff. schools are having to do with a lot less because of our king george, dontcha know
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #70
80. I didn't say they were "uncaring monsters"
But what I did say, is many do go along with the systemic racism and classism that is found within all public schools.

http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/archivedarticles.asp?...

Institutionalized racism doesn't need to involve racist people in order to exist. It refers to organizations, processes or policies that, because of their specific history, have been structured with a racist rationale and thus operate in a racist manner public education, for example.

People may say, "Well, I'm certainly not a racist." It doesn't matter: the system has been in place for a long time, and it was developed by people who endorse the aforementioned philosophies, not minorities. Today, the system has been fortified by economic conditions.

Most minorities in the past belonged to the working class or lower (when your people are enslaved for hundreds of years, it takes more than a while to get to the top). Thus they lived in low-income areas with poor schools, away from the nice suburban schools; a de facto segregation of sorts. This is less the case today, but nonetheless, it's still a problem. Poverty is still relatively higher among minorities.

History is a pattern, it's dynamic it doesn't stop and start all over again forgetting the past as many would like to think. These two factors the segregation-born philosophy that minorities are different and the economic disadvantage that marks many minorities today affect the way our country is shaped.

Institutionalized racism doesn't claim that everyone is a racist it acknowledges that people are genuinely confused or unaware of how things they do or organizations they're a part of are promoting inequality. Let's take an example:





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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. also last five years we have embraced dummy down of people
and kids. that has nothing to do with schools. i jsut see outside factors as pretty relevent also
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Seansky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. No argument here on that one.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
75. I am so glad you posted that!
All we here these days about the public schools--and it's been this way for at least 10 years, probably longer--is so negative. It's hard to see how people working in their schools don't just throw up their hands and quit, hearing all this negative crap.

I know there are bad schools. I know there are bad, poorly funded schools. But there are also good schools. Lots of them.

I finished high school in the 1960's and the schools I went to were awful. This was in a poor rural county in SC. The tax base just wasn't there. Some reactionaries believe that the schools went downhill because of integration. I can tell you that's not so. When I went to school the schools were still segregated, and they were awful, where I lived, at least.

And while I'm at it, I might as well mention that there were pedophiles in the schools then. My sixth grade teacher was a dirty old man who tried to cop a feel of the girls' boobs. My mother and some other parents, to their eternal credit, got his ass fired. If that happened now, he'd probably end up in jail.

I've had occasion to visit schools once in a while since I left. Some of those, admittedly in more well-off counties, looked wonderful compared to the schools I went to.

Another thing, when I went to school, nobody questioned whether it was a good school or not. You just went to that school because it was down the road.

Of course, I was a kid then and wouldn't have been discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of the local schools. But I really don't think parents talked about that much in those days.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. i allowed the stories convince me to send kids to private school
for 6 years. i had to get kids out of this christian private school adn "settled" for public. i was so happily surprised the stories were bullshit. lol. nephews going to different public schools in city. i have been really pleased, even with schools working with less money and bush's texas no child left behind that makes it even harder for teachers and the school

nope. they dont get my ridicule, they get my thanks and appreciate and supporting them, and working with them
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lcordero2 Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
22. huh?
Don't have children but I'm all for extending the public school system in hopes of covering the first four years of college (at the very least) :D
I draw the line at babysitting though. I don't want somebody else's bastard in my house.
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
65. Lol
Yes, mandatory babysitting duty would be a bad idea. :D

I agree about the college...other civilized countries provide college education for their citizens. It's sad that this one doesn't. :(
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
23. Used to be called "giving something back" but that's out of fashion. nt
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
24. i guess you could say kidless people got education for free and
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 01:55 PM by seabeyond
paying it back now. as their parents paid for their education adn so on and so on

my kids will pay for their education when they get old enough to work. i am paying for mine now, that i got when i was a kid
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
25. Freepers believe that.
Folks who think about it for a second realize that those children will support and care for us in our old age. They'll do that with Social Security contributions, with keeping society as a whole going, and some with their personal service as nurses, etc. I want these kids to be as smart as possible and make as much money (ie be able to pay taxes) as possible.

And hey, maybe it's not so bad if they live happy healthy lives while they're at it.
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
28. I dont have children
but someone saw to it that there were decent schools, parks, and libraries when I needed them.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
29. A Democrat said that???
I'm shocked. The idea that our taxes go to help other people and their children is, to little ol me, the foundation of the Democratic Party. I pay my taxes without a ton of complaint because I know they are benefitting myself and others... people I will never meet.

Reminds me of the republican woman ranting at the bank a few months ago. She was complaining that her local taxes were raised to pay for schools! SHe was very huffy! She said, "I don't even have kids in school anymore!!!!". I politely and calmly said to her, "oh, but your children went to school, someone ELSE with no children in school paid for your children's education. That's how it's supposed to work.". For good measure I added, "It IS the Christian way, you know". Boy.. that shut her up!

Do I like paying taxes? Hell no! Do I understand why I pay taxes and the benefits of them? Hell yes.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. And I bet SHE went to public school too.
Unbelievable how selfish some people are. They got theirs but they don't think they should let others have their fair shake.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #36
79. Yep. I have a relative by marriage
who is elderly, on Medicare, but if somebody else doesn't have insurance through their job, she thinks it's their fault for not having a job that provides insurance. Yeah, like there's enough jobs around that provide medical insurance for everybody who needs one.

I think Medicare should be expanded to cover everybody. But I digress.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. It takes a village to raise a child
for those who don't have kids, surely you have family that has kids. Somehow everyone does benefit from this regardless if they have kids or not.
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
30. Well, we paid for THEIR school when they were kids.... and for their play
grounds and their public parks.

So it's just a republican greed thing, I guess.
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Sgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
31. I've voted for tax increases
for schools before, and will again. I may or may not have children, but a well educated society supports us all.

If parks should exist (and I believe they should), then they should exist for all -- including the children.

That said, I do have problems with some issues re/ children that have to do with personal finances. For instance, the rebateable child tax credit is IMHO a give away, and should be repealed. Its fine to tax all, and provide needed services -- including direct support to families who need it, but the taxes should be fair and equal.

By the same token, I believe the marriage "tax" should be abolished.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
32. What i don't understand
Is why school districts are tied to house values in a neighborhood. This stinks of classism. All school districts countrywide should receive equal funding.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. Yes, that is a prime example of institutionalized classism
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 02:25 PM by ultraist
And racism. Black neighborhoods are disporpotionately rental and poorer areas, thus lower property tax areas. Rich white folks who want all of their prop tax money to go to their kids' schools. Elitists don't believe in the democratic way of fair redistribution.

IMO, the existing tax distribution method is effectively, segregated schools, which of course was outlawed by Brown vs. Board of Edu. I don't understand how they can justify it as a legal form of redistribution. Would they legally say, one neighborhood doesn't get full fire and police services because the property tax base is less than other neighborhoods? Where is the logic of their method?
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
33. I don't think my tax money should go to education
for people who are in this country illegally or their children.

I don't think my tax money should go to health care for people who are in this country illegally or their children.

I don't think my tax money should go to pay for welfare for people who are in this country illegally or their children.


However, if you're here legally then by all means, I wholeheartedly support the use of my taxes for education, health care and social programs.

I have a huge problem with illegals and their families in this country.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. I guess you should blame the children then for the circumstances
of their birth that they have no control over. :eyes:

Too bad, that child could turn out to be the next Einstein, or Jonah Salk, making a huge contribution to our world if given the opportunity to get an education, but no you don't think they deserve it.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. It's not that they don't deserve
it's that they are here ILLEGALLY.

If they want to come to this country, that's fine. There are processes in place that they can follow to become a citizen.

Look at it this way: if someone broke into your home and moved in and used your stuff and ate your food and took your money and took advantage of you without regard for you, would you condone it?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. Okay one more time, the reason their parents are here illegally
is because some American gave them a job. No illegals get welfare unless their American born children are entitled to it. I know that for a fact. You shouldn't begrudge any of them health care because most likely they have handled the food you eat somewhere along the way and if they have an untreated disease chances are good that you will get it.

If you want to end workers entering the country without documents, then you have to make it not worthwhile for the employers to hire them.
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
62. You don't have to be a citizen to enter this country legally
Hell, you don't even have to become a citizen to stay in this country.

And that second argument sounds very similar to some more RW crap I have seen flung against the walls.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #38
64. You must also feel we should cut off all foreign aid
If you feel children of "illegals" don't deserve to go to our schools and benefit from our healthcare, then you must feel that unless the child is American, we shouldn't pay.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Exactly. Let's just let the children in our country starve
go without an education, and die unnecessarily from lack of health care. Hell, just release them on the streets and let them fend for themselves. They don't have a right to food, shelter, medical care and an education if they are not Americans.

:eyes:

But, many of the children of "illegals" ARE US Citizens, as they were born on our soil.

Regardless, whether the child is here and not a citizen or somewhere else, like Darfur, we have a moral responsibility to do what we can to provide for ALL of the children of the world. We are the wealthiest nation in the world, for fucks sake.

I cannot believe the selfishness and cruel ways of some. Sickening.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Do you live in a border state?
Do you see the affects on your state's budgets due to illegals?
Do you see the affects on your state's education system due to illegals?
Do you see the affects on your state's health care system due to illegals?

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fleabert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. I do, and I TOTALLY disagree with you....
are you from planet earth?

do you see the affects of ignoring children's needs on both a global and local level?

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moc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #47
57. I live in a border state
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 02:27 PM by moc
The U.S. needs to come to terms with the role of migrant workers in our economy. As long as we enjoy low cost produce in abundance in our grocery stores as well as low cost labor to mow our lawns, tend our children, clean our homes, etc, there will be a role for illegal immigrant workers in our economy.

Portraying illegals as taking everything but giving nothing to our economy is inaccurate. Furthermore, illegals pay millions of dollars of taxes into the U.S. treasury that they can never claim.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #47
60. So, if there is no one out there to pick your food, you are going
to see the effects on your grocery shelves, your budget and the money your government will have to spend to bail out the farmers who will have crops rotting in the fields. I live in a border state and I know what the racist propaganda is that is put out to make you believe they are screwing up the economy. There are some very simple fixes if people sit down and work them out.

In the meantime, I want to know that I'm not going to get hepatitis when I eat a salad and that kids who aren't in school aren't roaming around in gangs while their parents work two and three jobs.

I also don't see anyone complaining about all the Brits and Canadians working here illegally who cross from the other border. How about that? They are also sending their kids to our schools and availing themselves of our health system, what little is left of it now even for Americans.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #47
66. Yes, I live in Texas.
Your profile is strangely blank.

Texas has no State Income Tax. Schools are mostly funded by Property Taxes, so even renters pay. Trust me, landlords do not absorb the increases. Higher Sales Tax has been proposed for education & everybody pays Sales Tax. If the kids are here they should be educated. It will benefit all of us.

Bush & his successor have done more damage to our state budget than any undocumented workers--or their kids, who are probably US citizens.

I've got insurance at work; co payments have gone up & choices have gone down. This process started with Bush as governor; Gov Goodhair is owned by the insurance industry.


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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. Well said Bridget Burke.
Thanks for injecting some facts into this conversation.

:yourock:
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #66
84. My profile is strangely blank?
Who the hell do you think you are?

I've been around since early 2001.

I've supported and donated here.

California does have income tax.
San Diego has city tax.

My tax dollars are being spent to educate people that should not be here in the first place.

I'll re-ask my question from above:


If someone broke into your house and used your stuff and ate your food and spent your money with no regard to you, would you think it's OK?

If so, then you're not much more than a tool.

If not, then your entire argument falls on its face.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #84
94. Your analogy is false.
I stand by my argument.

California used to have a fine education system. Didn't proposition 13 have more to do with its sad decline than undocumented workers & their children? Of course, your precious tax dollars are the most important thing in the universe.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #96
102. I know who I am.
And "asshole, redneck" opinions resemble yours more than mine. (Not that all rednecks or assholes; neither are all assholes rednecks.)

If somebody broke into my house I would call the police or check the locks--anything other than passive whining. But I still do not accept your analogy.

I am truly sorry that you are so near starvation. Please post your name & address so I can send you some canned goods.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. No thanks. I don't eat canned or processed food.
I prefer to buy and eat fresh.

So tell me how my analogy is wrong.

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fleabert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #104
145. your meals are the result of the labor of those you disdainfully refer to
my family thanks you for your derision, and my husband thanks everyone for the public education he received.

Several of his mother's younger sisters went on to complete college, and as part of the 'first generation', he and his sister were the first Americans in his family to complete college.

Putting immigrants children thru the school system works for the whole of society.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #94
101. How is my analogy false?
Explain yourself.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. First, prove that it is true.
And tell us about Proposition 13.

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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. I don't think so.
You claim my analogy is false.

The onus is on you to prove that it is false.

Otherwise, you are incorrect.

But you won't accept that answer, will you?
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #105
108. Your analogy is faith-based & cannot be disproved by logic.
I am not so close to the poverty level that I want sick, starving & ignorant children living in my city & state. However, most immigrant children I know are healthy & well fed because of their hardworking parents. They really aren't all on welfare.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. Nice non-sequitor there.
Care to actually address the points in my analogy rather than just spew that it's "faith-based"?

So you'd be OK if someone broke into and moved into your house, ate your food, used your stuff, spent your money and had no concern for you or your welfare?

Obviously you are, otherwise you would make a valid point that my analogy is false.

Checkmate.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #109
111. If somebody broke into my house I would do something about it.
Besides whining.

Peoples's lives are not a chess game.

Have fun with your analogy!

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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. I'm sure you would.
You just go right back to your pretend world and live it up.

Glad to see you don't even believe in your own nonsense to be able to back it up.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. So, you're sitting at your PC
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 04:23 PM by Bridget Burke
While those folks who broke into your house are eating your food, using your stuff & spending your money with no concern for your welfare.

It must be crowded.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #114
116. Yes it is getting crowded in California.
And I'm sitting at work, arguing with you rather than getting my work done.

I'm still waiting for an answer from you as to how my analogy is false.

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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. I wonder how many of those illegal immigrants
sit at work wasting time on the computer, rather than doing the jobs they are paid for, hmmmmm?
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. And they probably don't have very good analogies, either...
Unless they take some while they are at Dweeb's house.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #118
127. Why don't you stop bashing and explain how my analogy is false.
Your strawman argument is getting old.

Why can't you explain how my analogy is false, as you repeatedly claim.

Is it because you know you are wrong?
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #117
126. I don't know, but what would your point be?
Because I really don't see one in your statement.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #126
135. I just find it ironic that someone complaining about
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 07:42 PM by Scout
illegal immigrants "taking" things (education, medical care) that don't belong to them is stealing time from his employer by posting on the internet.

:shrug:

ETA: you admitted yourself you were not getting your work done because you were arguing on the internet.

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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #116
131. Sorry, but...
I don't think the janitorial staff in your office building is arguing with someone on a message board instead of getting their work done.

You were saying about the immigrant workforce...? While ripping off your employer???

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl::
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #132
137. Nope, I was posting from home, I don't rip off my employers.
And where did I assume the janitorial staff were anything in particular?
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fleabert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-29-05 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #109
146. so what you are really saying, based on your question...is that
you think illegal immigrants, PEOPLE, with full intention and belief:

'break' into this country
eat 'our' food
use 'our' stuff
spend 'our' money
and have no concern for 'us' or 'our' welfare

?

that is the oddest thing I have ever heard. Do you actually know anyone who is in this country illegally? You do realize this includes students whose visas expire, people with Green Cards that expire, and people who cross the border intending to stay a short time, and end up staying a lifetime? And a lot of them end up becoming citizens in the long run, their children born here are citizens and stay here, and their children, and their children, etc... all of these people contribute to the wealth of this nation- and not just monetarily- consider the culture they bring, the languages, the knowledge, the history, it goes on and on.

you are over-simplifying something that cannot be simplified. These are flesh and blood PEOPLE...not just a number in a newspaper article or a statistic in a study or census, and I bet you would be shocked if you went out and actually got to know any of them in a personal way. Shocked by how much empathy you might have for their situation, and how much it might make you think of how your own family came to this country.

you insult my family when you make simplifications like this.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #101
142. Because undocumented workers contribute to the wealth of this nation
so when they receive social services they've helped pay for it with their labor. You can take the petty chickenshit rightwing approach and blame Mexicans for the budget issues, or maybe you could consider that it's the organization of our economic system which exploits their labor that is responsbile.

The healthcare and education systems are inadequate? No fucking way in hell it's the Republican's fault. It's gotta be the goddamn Mexicans.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #84
120. I pay taxes in California. I have no children in public schools.
I hope that my tax dollars are paying to educate the children of illegal immigrants. I do not like the notion of withholding a basic education to any child. Likewise, I do not mind paying for basic health care for everyone and wish we had socialized medicine for all.

As for your question, if a crook broke into my house, I wouldn't think it's OK. I don't condone lawbreaking. The problem I have with your analogy is you think the crook is the illegal immigrant while I think the real crooks are the business and political interests who support our broken immigration system. They're the ones misusing your tax dollars. By hiring illegal immigrants they are depressing their costs and not necessarily passing the savings on to you. You, on the other hand, are expected to subsidize their unpaid fringe costs through taxes. Without willing employers, there would be very few illegal immigrants.

Our immigration policy doesn't work. The time to revise it is long overdue. Legal residents and citizens should not have to compete with a lower paid workforce living under a different set of rules. Seasonal migrants and other short term foreign workers should have the protections of minimum wages, workplace rules and conditions and access to basic taxpayer-funded education and health services just like everyone else.


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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #120
128. I agree that our immigration policy doesn't work
but why should we continue to provide incentives for these people's families to follow them here?

If we cut the aid to illegal immigrants and their families, they will stop bringing their families here.

You say you don't condone lawbreaking, but at the same time you're turning a blind eye to these people who enter our country illegally.

I'm not saying the corporations that hire the illegals are innocent. But I don't think my tax dollars should go to reward people who break the law.

That's the way I see it.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #47
74. I live in NC, we have one of the fastest rising Hispanic populations
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 03:27 PM by ultraist
And I'm more than happy to see my tax dollars go to CHILDREN, regardless of whether or not they are American.

FYI: Many of the children you are referring to, ARE US citizens. They were BORN here.

Should we send them back and let them starve and go without medical care and an education?

CHILDREN HAVE A RIGHT TO food, shelter, medical care and education, regardless of their nationality!!!
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #47
83. See message 50, last paragraph. nt
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #47
100. I'm in Colorado - we have many thousands.
I don't blame our financial woes on illegals.
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. Even if their child was born here
Which makes them a US citizen?

So you want a whole class of people to be dumb, sick, and mal-nourished. Where have I heard those ideas before?

I consider the illegal problem to be one of the tiniest, most insignificant problems this country has and personally think it is primarily brought up as a tool for closet racism.

Besides, Bush will fix the illegal problem. When he gets done with this country won't be anybody wanting to come here.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #33
51. your ire is misdirected IMO. US business interests WANT the illegals here.
they make sure they get in, even smuggle them in. the illegals are mistreated routinely. enslaved sometimes. its the "marketplace" at work.

IF it was truly an issue, believe me, the INS and the US border patrol would have found a way to stop the influx. long as it's a source of cheap (below minimum wage) labor it's not going away.

I think those who pass laws to care for the illegal aliens and their families do so as a "nod" to the businesses who wouldn't operate without the workers...and so that circumstances don't get so bad that an outcry results in curtailing the traffic.
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fleabert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #33
53. in large part, illegal immigrants also have illegal documentation, such as
fake socials, and they use those papers to get employment, actual employment. That means taxes are taken out, and things like SS benefits are never collected by these people. so we, natural born citizens benefit tax-wise on illegal immigrants working in this country.

Ever wonder where that lovely SS surplus comes from? this is one way extra dollars end up in the coffer.
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #53
91. That is true for the most part.
Illegal workers are still being taxed on their income (for the most part) and pay local taxes whenever the purchase products.
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #33
71. will you refuse the taxes that illegals pay then?
sales tax, income tax withholding (most are not paid "under the table"), etc? Without illegals to rent housing, many landlords would pay less property taxes, as the illegals' willingness to pay high rents for poor housing is holding up values.

Contributions by illegals are holding up social security - funds witheld for social security numbers that are likely bogus number in the billions of dollars per year.

Would you return this money to the illegal immigrants then?
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #71
86. I wouldn't refuse their taxes
because they shouldn't be here holding jobs in the first place.

Yes, there are laws on the books that are supposed to prevent corporations from hiring people without documentation.

When's the last time you heard about one getting fined?

:crickets:
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #33
81. I don't think people who're in this country illegally get welfare
or their children either. If by welfare you're referring to TANF.

Can you provide a source?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
93. So you'd rather those children grow up to be violent criminals?
I mean, it's not like you have one iota of ability to prevent them from entering the country.

So if they stay - and they will, as long as our government looks the other way and lets companies hire them for near-slave wages that are still better than where they came from - they need to either be educated, or you'll need to vote for more law enforcement so the ignorance that leads them into lives of crime doesn't come back and kill you.

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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
143. Damn straight.
And you know what else pisses me off? Motherfuckers who flaunt the law by smoking pot. They should rot in jail, because that's what the law says. If something is the law, then it is automatically right.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
40. I have no problem paying for education and playgrounds and such
for other people's kids. I do have a problem with huge federal/state income tax 'credits' (off the bottom line) for children. If you elect to have a child or a dozen of them, you already get a tax exemption for each one. When I raised by son (now almost 36) as a single mother with a dead-beat ex, I didn't even get a child care credit.
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
58. I understand where you're coming from
But if you think about how much it costs to raise a child, it doesn't equate to much of a "bonus" for the parents...it barely helps at all. The single or child-free person is still way ahead. But I also think there should be some kind of reward for having the sense not to overpopulate the world, so I grant you that. :)
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
68. You are going to complain about the child tax credit
When corporations and the wealthy get huge breaks that dwarf the pitiful child tax credit, just because you didn't get yours?

Geez, I am starting to think the post early this morning about DU moving to the right may have had some merit.

Posts about them awful illegals, about tax breaks for parents being wrong.

What's next, somebody gonna tell the "homos" to get back in the closet and "darkies" to get in their place?

Damn, guess maybe I should go do some work and take a break until we tilt left again.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #68
89. Guess I hit a nerve. I'm a believer in 'zero population growth', something
from the past. I reproduced myself. I'm asking why our federal government encourages people, who complain about the high cost of raising a child, to have more. A child tax credit is an incentive to some. I work with a gentleman who now has 8 children. We make the same salary....I pay the highest rate as a single individual...and he pays nothing in federal taxes! I am therefore, subsidizing his family. He and his wife decided to continue to have more children. You know, I'd like to put more than 10% in savings, but I have to pay 38% in taxes and pay my mortgage, eat, and stuff.

Yes, corporations and the wealthy do not pay their fair share either.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #89
99. exactly
two wrongs don't make a right ...

give tax credits/incentives, whatever for one or two children ... after that, you are on your own.

I don't mind paying taxes for "other people's kids" but I don't want to support mindless, endless breeding that some people seem to be doing.
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #89
115. I am familiar with the term ZPG
But if you think those pitiful tax credits and deductions help much when it comes to raising kids you need to check some figures.

Like the cost of groceries, school clothes, doctor's visits and all the rest.

Sure, there may actually be some people who "have kids for credits" but I don't think it is a serious enough issue to do away with them.

And I still say those who complain about "subsidizng" others are usually on the right wing of the spectrum. Sharing the wealth and helping your fellow man is the only reason I am on the left. Take that out and you have absolutely nothing left.

Frankly, and this not directed entirely at you, but considering my current financial state with two kids still at home I could care less about any struggling single person. Try explaining to your kids why we can no longer afford things. How we lost a business because the economy tanked because we have a lunatic in the WH. At least you only have yourself to worry about. Me, I am about one bad break from getting a gun.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #115
125. Ok, you "could care less about any struggling single person" and
someone else (not me) could say that you elected to have the two kids. Do you think single people don't need groceries, clothes, or doctor's visits? I believe in "fairness" and justice for all and I do contribute to help those in a lesser financial bracket than I'm in. By being single, I am subsidizing my fellow Americans' part of the load of the cost of government, roads, schools, etc. already by paying a higher rate of taxation. If you think a $3100 per child exemption and a $1000 per child tax credit don't make a difference in the tax payable, calculate your taxes without them. If we have the identicial income, you will pay taxes on $6200 or $9300 (if you are married) less of that income than I will. And I stated that I did not have a problem with the exemptions. But then with the tax credit, you could also receive up to $2000 off the bottom amount due.
That is the equal of another $8000 in income (one owes $2000 more in taxes in one were reporting $36,400 than if one was reporting $28,400).

I don't find my position any more 'right wing' than you stating you don't care about 'any struggling single person'.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
76. I'd rather see a tax credit than a deduction.
Someone in a 10% tax bracket has their tax bill reduced by $60 with a $600 deduction, while someone in a 38% tax bracket gets a reduction of $228. I'd rather see a $150 credit. That helps the low income taxpayer ... who sure as hell needs it more.
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Suziq Donating Member (953 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
46. I Have Such a Problem . . .
with this attitude. My family and my sister's family live in the same town in New Jersey. Taxes are extremely high, but the schools are excellent! People move to this town knowing damn well the taxes are high, but are willing to pay to guarantee their kids get a good education.

My hubby and I have no children, but my sister does. Her children benefited greatly from the public school system. Now that her children are out of school, she is bitching about having to pay the high taxes. Her "I got mine, screw the next family" attitude really pisses me off.

She totally disregards that our taxes also pay for street maintenance, fire department, police, etc.

My answer to her - move out then.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
52. don't have kids. don't mind paying taxes.
as long as i'm not ''punished'' for not having kids by paying at a higher rate or denied comparable tax breaks for singles.
that's all.
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DrZeeLit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
55. Wouldn't want to drive in a country where a generation cannot read.
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 02:29 PM by DrZeeLit
Sounds funny.
What I mean is... we all have a stake in the future.
Reading, writing, basic human values. It's a collective responsibility to insure rights for the next generation, and the next, and the next.

They did it for us. We do it for them.
What's that quote?
Something about we don't pass down our place on earth, we borrow it from our children?
I don't remember the exact words.

Sometimes, when I'm really focusing, I remember that everyone was a child once, everyone was a helpless baby.
The ragged homeless man I pass on the street, the reeling drunk in a bar, the dead soldier, the convicted murderer, the opera singer... it goes on and on.

Taking care is our legacy and our birthright.
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
59. when I hear anyone touting that attitude, I "see" a republican...
"me first" and "I got mine" and to hell with anyone else. The common good? "COMMUNISM!!!! AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!"



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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
67. We have no kids, OK with us
I went to a state university.

It all evens out.


That and children who are not properly educated are a problem for everyone, when it comes to crime and to just generally functioning in society.

They aren't my kids, but if they grow up ignorant it IS my problem.
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
72. Thanks everyone for your comments
I'm relieved to see that most of us get that people with kids aren't getting some free ride at everyone else's expense.

I shouldn't assume that one or two comments indicate the mood of the board.

Thanks, DU. :grouphug:
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
77. I'll choose education over illegal wars and corporate welfare any day
but I'm a parent so maybe I'm biased. Actually, I believed this long before I had a kid. Building and maintaining a strong country means that our people must be educated. I'm bothered by the "screw everyone else" mentality that runs rampant in America now...I see so many people who call themselves Patriots but don't want to invest in the very country they claim to so dearly love and honor.

I don't see much of this on DU, but I don't doubt it's there. The greatest irony is that those who don't want to help to mentally strengthen and prepare America's children are the ones acting childishly. At the end of the day though, when these people are elderly and in need of quality treatment, they will depend on the education of the next generation to take care of them. Lesson: Be careful what you wish for.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
85. I read that thread... I didn't get the same vibe from that statement
It is continuously astonishing to me that those who believe I should foot the bill for their children's education, recreation, etcetera, also believe that the above law is appropriate.

The poster said nothing about being annoyed or upset about having to pay those taxes. All s/he said was that all taxpayers should have equal rights under the law. At least that's what I got from it.
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mcar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
87. There was a thread on this several months ago
that was just hideous. I could not believe it was here on DU; it was so mean-spirited. Posters were referring to parents as "breeders" and bitterly complaining about how parents get everything and people without children have to pick up the slack.

Fortunately, most DUers are rational, like all the posters on this thread. :toast:
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
90. We don't have kids. But, better education than "defense".
Even though I see the educational system in this country more intent on churning out obedient worker bees than providing a real education, it beats the hell out of complete ignorance.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
92. When I didn't have kids, I didn't believe that.
It's selfish and short-sighted, IMHO, to not want to pay for those things just because you can't immediately benefit from them.

People of our stripe are supposed to be for improving EVERYONE'S lot, not just our own - or so I've been led to believe.

I do have one caveat - vouchers are a no-go, because they are exclusionary, and that violates the aforementioned principle.

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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
95. I don't
Hubby and I don't have kids and it's okay with me that taxes go to public schools. Hope this helps. I also hope that the "kids" out there don't go along with cutting Medicare and things for the older generation which we're fast approaching.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
97. No kids here, and no I don't mind. eom
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MODemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
98. Someone before us paid for our education
I want our children to have a good education. That is our best hope for the future.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
106. Ummm... we all started out as children who played on playgrounds
and went to school, right?!

Children who have no schools or safe places to play may grow up to be criminals who may victimize childless old people!!

Just kidding.
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Cobalt Violet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
107. Someone's tax dollars went to educate me.
And my tax dollars go to educate someone else. That's how it works. I have no kids and never will but I think we should be spending MORE on playgrounds and education.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
112. Not this childless single
I think that some parents are more selfish than I am in that respect--they don't want to pay for public schools, and especially not more for schools that serve dark-skinned children in inner cities, because their little angels are all in Gated Acres Country Day School.

I, on the other hand, realize that today's schoolchildren will be out in the workforce (or trying to break into the workforce) in no time at all, twelve years at the most.

We have a choice: they can be well-informed or ignorant.

Some people short-sightedly would rather have a generation growing up ignorant than pay another dime in taxes.
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UncleSepp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
119. The children I help today will help me tomorrow...
... it's part of the social contract. I choose not to have kids for now, but I gladly support public schools, parks, art programs, after school programs, and other benefits for kids and families with kids. It's good for society, and what's good for society is also good for me. If the social contract has been upheld, as a grandma-aged person with no grandkids and no kids, the same society I supported as a young person will support me as an old person with a community center, public transit, and (dare it be hoped?) social security.

What I don't like is when it is assumed I am always available to work, because I do not have children. This is an extension of my intense dislike for salaried work without fixed hours and of the concept that an employer gets to judge if a person's use of time is valid enough to justify time off of work that is either outside of normal working hours anyway, or is guaranteed vacation or floating holiday time. For me, it's a labor rights issue, and really has very little to do with children or parents.

Most of all, I really, really don't like the valuation of everything in terms of money.
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True American Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
121. Everyone should be involved in this story.
Have you read the Sibel Edmond's story. I never know about this story until today. I urge everyone to read this story about the Bush Cover up. The Aurthur is Real Time.

Post a reply to Real Time in order to keep this story front and centered.

The Truth will prevail.

Justacitezen.com

True American.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
122. There is an inter-generational bargain in civil society
People without children will someday rely on "other people's children" when they get old and ill.. They also reap the benefits of having the younger ones around to pay into the social security they will eventually collect. It's not too much to ask, to have an educated , well-fed, successful crop of young people coming along behind the elders.

We cannot "pick and choose" the things we like and inbly pay for those things..

Survival of the fittest, is not a pretty sight, nor is it one bit civil.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
123. As a gay man , who is fighting for equality
I feel I should be paying less taxes than strate Americans, as I have less rights. The fact that strates pay less taxes for each child(burden)they put on the county.I would have no problem If , I had the same rights. I do Not. They are always getting out of work early and stuff too. I had a grievance a while back when a manager scheduled a gay guy to work Christmas cause the others have Families. WTF?. I vote against familiy friendly and military(for obvious reasons)propositions, not cause I begrudge it, but first things first sorry
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
124. no i dont feeel any resentment
that i wont breed and some of my money goes into the school system...i feel deep resentment that my money goes into corporate welfare though
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
130. I'm childfree by choice
I don't resent my taxes going for public education because I realize that we all benefit from an educated populace. I'm a bit more ambivalent about other things like the tax credit for parents, though. Why do families that earn $100K a year deserve a tax break because they have kids? I'd prefer to see help going to kids that truly need it. But on the other hand, that doesn't bother me nearly as much as massive tax cuts to billionaires.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
134. My kid is grown and successfully "launched"
So now I'm paying for "other peoples kids" like others paid for mine.

It evens out, don't you think? But, what about people who never had kids?

OK....

Why pay taxes that buy fire trucks if you never smoke in bed?
Why pay taxes that pay for Cops if you never need one?
Why pay taxes for trash pick-up if you recycle and compost, OR, why pay for a recycling program if you're a typical Murkan who throws it all away?
Why pay taxes for sidewalks if you drive everywhere?
Why pay taxes for streets and traffic singnals and streetlights in sections of town you never visit?

Need I go on?
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laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
136. I hope I'm paying for other people's children.
Nobody can help the circumstance they were born into and I'm glad to be able to help someone else's child succeed.
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really annoyed Donating Member (650 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
138. No annoyance here!
My taxes go to public schools that are educating my oldest niece and nephew. Plus, education benefits society as a whole.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
139. Not here - I believe in the value of building the community
public education has a major value for all. I have no children (but many nephews and neices) and I have NO resentment for paying these taxes. It is a value.
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
140. I don't care where my taxes go unless
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 10:33 PM by GoneOffShore
they're going to corporate welfare, defense contractors or big business.

I don't have any kids, but I really want good public schools. Here's why: Good public education can produce good citizens who understand the social contract and know why it's important to keep it. If they understand the social contract that means that they won't go around committing antisocial acts (as long as the other end of the social contract is kept - ie, if you're a good citizen, able to get a job that pays well etc.) and contribute to the whole of society.

A guy I work for occasionally told me he came back from a weekend shoot for a beer company at a NASCAR event and had an epiphany while he was working. "I looked around and realized that the tattooed, pierced and beer guzzling hoards that I was filming were the very people who will be taking care of me - or not - when I'm in my dotage."

I don't mind taxes - as long as those taxes pay for the things that are really important: Infrastructure, public transport, environmental protection, public education, arts programs (don't get me started on how important the arts are - far more important and effective than sports programs - kids who are involved in the arts have fewer disciplinary problems, attendance problems, are more likely to be involved in student government, are more likely to go on to higher education), public health care.

We have a really twisted view of taxes in this country IMHO. (Not that people in other countries don't try to avoid taxes by any means available to them. After all - CASH IS KING!) "Taxes are evil." Well, that depends. Taxes can be an instrument of social change. If they tax the poor unfairly, they can keep them poor. If they tax the rich 'unfairly' they can drive money out of the economy, so some people seem to believe. I think that taxes are a 'necessary evil'. We need to have them as an instrument of social policy - to prevent the rise of a class of 'super rich' oligarchs who believe that because of their wealth they are above the law.

I'm not arguing here for a society where there are no rich people, but I am arguing for a society where poor people (and remember that "the poor are always with us" for one reason or another) are provided with at worst, the basic needs to survive. Remember that most of us are only one accident, one lawsuit, one illness, or one natural disaster away from depending on the government or 'the kindness of strangers' for support.

So, tax me fairly, but tax every other bugger fairly as well. And no damn flat tax either. And a graduated income tax is certainly fair as long as it is administered correctly.
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
141. Self delete
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 10:27 PM by GoneOffShore
Duplicate post
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
144. I made a comment about protesting
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 10:50 PM by BuffyTheFundieSlayer
because I'm childless and will forever be so, yet my tax dollars support many programs for children. However that was followed by a winking smiley, indicating that I was joking. I realize that my tax dollars go to support many programs I will never use, just as other peoples' tax dollars help support things I may use that they don't. It's all part of the way things work here in the US.


Edit to move apostrophe
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