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screaming_meme Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:59 PM
Original message
It is painfully clear democracy is DEAD in America
Hate to say it, but it's true. And this is just the beginning.

The Diebold machines and punchcards lent an easy victory to the billionaire in Enron's pocket. Who knows what his share of the spoils will be but we all know that the only thing that Arnold worships (beside his ego and Hitler) is cold, hard cash.

People of California, WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU? You were our shining hope of being a model of liberal tolerance, open-mindedness, environmentalism and socio-economic justice. Now you're throwing it away to elect a groping satyr with a bad accent as your leader. I weep for our future.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. You bet.
Life will go on. The quality will continue to diminish - but hey...who cares?
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maxanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. thanks so much
we need more angry right wingers around here.
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Kitsune Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. How is it campaigning dirty
to point out that the other guy is a complete fucking scumbag?

I refuse to believe that Arnold could actually be elected without massive, massive vote fraud. Californians aren't that stupid.
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wbc Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Vote Fraud?????
Is it possible that the voters really wanted to get rid of Davis?
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Kitsune Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Get rid of Davis, sure.
Vote for Arnold? I'm sorry, I have a higher opinion of human intelligence than that.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
49. Bustamante ran shit for a campaign.
And that stupid driver's license thing didn't help any.

Bake
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
36. i heard the tweety crew wondering if there wasn't a backlash about the
grope stories. i hope someone is studying the exit polls like our lives depended on it,
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Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
39. "I refuse to believe . . .
. . . that Arnold could actually be elected without massive, massive vote fraud."

The next time someone asks "why do we keep losing elections," go back to this statement. People who are incapable of facing realities that are staring them in the face aren't going to win a lot of elections.
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brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wait a minute -
Rethink that "People of California" crap. You know, we didn't put Bush in. We had this more current phony election imposed on us by a fool with a couple of bucks too many who was then told to take a hike by the White House- and did as he was ordered.


What? You want us to be the ones held responsible to stop the flood alone?


If it's true that Arnold has won - and I'll wait - it's because we have a surfeit of fools in this country. And, IMHO, it behooves everyone in every state to put down their mouse - and become active.


This criminal MisAdminstration's power has been bestowed on it by a nation that's asleep - too busy - too depressed - too lazy. Don't blame California.

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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Leave Californians alone
The majority of them now have both a governor and a president that didn't win the most votes.
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is how it is.....
In The New AmericaTM, either the correct candidate, or the candidate receiving a plurality of the votes cast, wins the election.

In cases where the correct candidate and the candidate receiving a plurality of the votes cast are not the same, the correct candidate wins the election.

The ballot is a terrific responsibility, and it is susceptable to being used the wrong way.

People cannot be relied upon to exercise the franchise responsibly, so there must be mechanisms in place when situations arise where the wrong candidate is inadvertently elected.

Welcome to the one-party state.
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wbc Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. This is how it is.....
Presidential elections are governed by the U.S. Constitution, which provides for an electoral college, not a popular vote. I don't know who really should have gotten Florida's electoral votes in 2000, but I do know that a presidential candidate must get 270 electoral votes, not a majority of the popular votes.

As for the recall election, it was conducted under the California Constitution and election law. It was legal, it was kosher. If people want to change these rules, fine, put an initiative on the ballot.

I don't understand how Democrats justify being so anti-democratic just because we lose an election. People don't like this. These attitudes are a surefire way to lose future elections.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
48. Democrats anti democratic?
You must be a freeper troll. Either that or a far left greenie/ naderite (and to be fair most of them opposed the recall).
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HitmanLV Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. daying democracy is dead in america...
...on a day where 15 million people voted in California is just a bit disengenuous and over the top.

You win some, you lose some.

When you lose, it doesn't mean the system isn't working. Time to retool and get the message across that's all.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. You're wrong
The system isn't working when a disgruntled millionaire can get this recall on the ballot in the first place. It's a fundamental lack of respect for our political traditions that allowe dthis to happen in the first place. This is just the next thing. First impeachment, Florida, redistricting, now recall. It is a concerted strategy by those who don't care about the system. They will use any means possible to win. That is the problem.
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HitmanLV Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I disagree.....
Disgruntled millionare or not, it wouldn't have got to the ballot if Davis was popular and sucessful.

Disgruntled millionare or not, Davis will lose his vote of confidence 59-41.

Our traditions are fine: people in Cali have tried recalls 33 times. This is the only sucessful one. Sucess doesn't make it any less respectful of our traditions than the other 32 times.

Impeachment was a bad call, but Clinton didn't help things at any stage of that game.

Florida was a mess, but it was the Gore team that took it to court, not the Bush team.

Redistricting is nothing new - the party in control sets the districts. It doesn't immediately become unfair when one side gets the short end of the stick.

The problem is the dems are losing the confidence of the people. Everything you mention is misdirection. Sorry, but if the dems had people's confidence, the landscape would look different today.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Blaming the victim
1. WHat politician, at some point in their term was not popular. At his lowest Harry Truman was at 24% approval, worse than Nixon got to. Is there any doubt Truman would have been recalled had it been possible. Just because a politician is unpopular does not make recall a legitimate thing to do.

2. Davis should not have had to face a vote until the next election, that is the point. If politicians become afraid to make tough decisions because they can be recalled at the drop of a hat, it isn't too long before chaos reigns

3. This may be the first successfull recall, but I guarantee you it won't be the last. Do you think the right is going to be content with this victory. So far this extra-institutional method of overturning elections has been very successfull for them.

4. No one disputes Clintons bad bahvior, but the language in the consitution about "high crimes and misdemeanors" was put there to prevent such abuses of the power to remove the President.

5. The Gore team took it to court because of a summary judgement by the Republican Secretary of State stopping a legitimate recount. And he thought that a Presidential candidae would not want an accurate vote count is mind-boggling

6. Traditionally, in this country, redistricting is done only once every 10 years, after the census becomes available. It has never been the practice to redistrict every time there is a change in who controls the state legislature. It is simply another power grab in defiance of our long standing political traditions

7. I would be saying the same things were it the Democrats trying to subvert our political way of life.
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. This is a defeat for the DLC
Not necisarly a victory for the Repugs.

First off, I should not that I have yet to see one pricinct report any thing. In fact, the last offichal word I heard was that it may in fact take a week to count the votes. It acures to me that the press may be calling it earley, then as the days pass, begine pounding their shew and start demanding that the state call it for Arnoled, even before the votes are counted.

This is going to end up in the courts folks, I stand by that prediction.

But I digress.

Davis is DLC, and the DLC play book reads like a republican romance novel. The DLC's primary job in office, is to rase more money for the next election. So when the lights went out in CA, Davis was more worred about where the money was going to come from. Not the rate payers of CA. Davis spent the whole crises in the board room negosating with Enron. And of course the moment Davis grew a back bone, Kenny Boy would throw the off switch and cow Davis into backing down.

The people of CA are still largly uninformed about what happend. I bet you most even beleive offichal Enron party line. Where the mediea will not report this, Davis must. But even after the crisses has ended, has any legislation been intorduced to deal with this? Has the dem controled statehouse there submited a bill to repeall the deregulation?

Nope.

To repeat the sentement of another. Davis lost, becase he didn't clean house.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. I heard a Berkeley political science professor on the radio today
He said the ONLY reason the recall made the ballot was Issa's multimillion dollar campaign. There had been a previous less-funded recall attempt that went nowhere.

Apparently the recall forces took a lesson from the way millionaire cranks have been able to get questionable referenda on the ballot and pass them in various states by paying signature gatherers by the signature.

I saw this happen in Oregon several times. The anti-tax, anti-union, anti-environment initiatives, put on the ballot through false advertising, deceptive sales pitches on the part of the signature gatherers, and outright fraud got so bad that the unions and environmental groups struck back with their own initiative, which required that signature gatherers be paid by the hour, not by the signature. It passed with very little advertising, accompanied by screams and howls from the professional petitioners.

As in the attempted recalls of Oregon's governor Barbara Roberts in the early 1990s, the right-wingers blamed Davis for things that the public was unhappy about, but which were not his fault.

IF Davis is out, and we're still talking IF here, it will be the triumph of cranky, sore-loser millionaires who know how to manipulate the public with half truths and who are able to influence the media with their millions and their connections.

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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. Wrong!
It was Bush's'* team who took it to court! BTW did you come here to gloat or just misstate facts?
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E Pluribus Unum Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #28
40. You do not know your facts Texas.
Gore first went to the courts to demand that four
counties recount their votes. These counties
just happen to be his strongholds.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
41. Lies and the Lying Liars who tell them
BUSH took it to court first. The recount was proceeding, as it automatically kicks in Florida. Bush filed the first injunction to cease the process.

And again, you obfuscate, misdirect...yes, redistricting is nothing new. But it has never before been pursued in this fashion, a full 3 years after the census.

Very Fair and Balanced, Hitman.

Yes indeed. Fair and Balanced.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
47. The Gore team took it to court?
It was actually the Bush team that the case to federal court. What was supposed to be a state issue, became a federal one at the behest of the Bushies as it was them that took the case to the supreme court.

You definetely are on the wrong board. It's one thing to criticise Davis and other democrats but trying to justify the redistricting in Texas is way over the top.
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wbc Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. You're Wrong
So far as the recall is concerned, the system worked just fine. Look, this was NOT a close election. Darrell Issa had a LOT of help dumping Davis; ie. apparently a huge majority of the voters in a very high turnout election. The people spoke loudly. I think it's important to get the message.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Missing the point
Elected officials should not be subject to random recalls simply because they are unpopular. What politician has not been unpopular at some point in their term. Harry Truman sunk to 24% at one point. The reason the founding father specifically did not put in a provision to recall elected officials was because of the chaos they knew would ensue. Politicians need to be able to make hard decisions sometimes, and they have to have the confidence to know that they will not be immedietely kicked out of office for making them. Havng elections at regular intervals gives time for the effect of these decision to be weighed by the voter, and fo those making the hard decisions to adequately explain their actions.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. That's right.
And, as an example, just watch the Democrats go downtown to file a petition to recall Arnold tomorrow morning.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. I agree.
I'm sorry, but this is BS.
All I have to say is one thing in response to "the people have spoken":
Californians now have both a president and a governor who came in second place when the votes were counted.
There is something very, very wrong.
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kong bao ji Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Not a valid comparison
Come on. This is a completely illogical line of reasoning - at least be honest about this. The percentage to vote to recall Davis is completely incomparable to the percentage that vote for Ah-nold. Everybody that votes, can vote both on the recall and on the canideate who would become the governor in the case that the recall goes through. I would think that a more fair comparision would be to look at the percentage that voted for Ah-nold and the percentage that voted for Bustamante (as a proxy Davis votes.)
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Hi kong bao ji!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #26
35. you might want to check your count
LATimes shows Arnold got 2% more than "no to recall"
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wbc Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. Democracy is alive and well!
This is a wonderful country and, here, the people rule. I thought the recall law was a little screwy but the recall petitions got a huge number of signatures, both sides had a fair chance to win, and the people spoke. Whether or not Davis won the election last year, he is clearly well hated now, he was removed by legal means, and Arnold won fair and square. I really, really think that Democrats need to engage in some introspection, else there will be lots more nights like tonight.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. You really are a recall apologist all over this board tonight...
aren't you?
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wbc Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Recall Apologist
Yeah, I guess I am.

I just find it so frustrating to see such willful refusal to face reality. Excuses, rationalizations, and namecalling are no way to win elections. Furthermore, I love American democracy and it makes me very sad to see it denigrated.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
45. That is such a load of Fair and Balanced BS!
Makes you very sad to see it denigrated, eh?

But the Brooks Brothers Riot in which operatives paid and flown in by the Bush campaign disrupted lawful counting of votes in Miami-Dade...that didn't bother you a bit?

Or perhaps DBT Choicepoints scrubbing tens of thousands of African-Americans off the voter rolls because their name, in many cases was the same as a felon from another state? No prob, eh? Democracy ok, eh?

No no, I know, those 10,000 absentee ballots applications "fixed" by helpful Republican operatives (including ex-CIA man and Buishevik Charles Kane) who had two lovely weeks alone with the Florida State Voters' Database? All peachy?

Oh, I see. The fact that Exit Polling went down in 2002, conveniently, as there were a number of upsets, particularly in Touchscreen Voting Georgia, involving double-digit "suprise" swings? Nothing to see here, move along.

How very Fair and Balanced of you.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
46. If the people 'rule'...
...why did the RWing Supreme Court 'rule' that the votes couldn't be counted in Florida?

- As to the Cal recall..it's a rich man's game. A petition and recall of that size is impossible without being bankrolled by someone with a lot of bucks.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. your last paragraph contradicts the rest of it
You show some disordered thought processes.
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Snellius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
18. Get a grip. This is democracy fighting back.
People just got conned in the wrong direction. But eventually they'll figure it out. The deficits are a ticking time bomb. The trouble for Arnold now is that he's really going to be held to fighting the "special interests", which even he knows are not really teacher's unions or Indian tribes. Eventually he'll have to choose between business or quality of life (revered in California) and he will make the wrong choice. All Republicans do. He will realize he is there only at the behest of the money powers that be. His cluelessness may alter him in directions he or his supporters did not foresee.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. What a well-thought, mature statement.
You're quite a good sport, aren't you?
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
23. Even without fraud,
this proves the system's broken.


From NOFX's "The Idiots Are Taking Over":

it's not the right time to be sober
now the idiots have taken over
spreading like a social cancer, is there an answer?

...

there's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated
political scientists think the same one vote guess some monkeys are inbred
majority rule, don't work in mental institutions
sometimes the smallest softest voice carries the grand biggest solutions

what are we left with?
a nation of god-fearing pregnant nationalists
who feel it's their duty to populate the homeland
pass on traditions
"how-to-get-ahead" religions
and prosperity the asymbolic culture
the idiots are taking over

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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Good post.
My sentiments exactly.
There's something wrong with our culture. I don't know for sure what it is, but I have a hunch it has something to do with the TV (or the abuse thereof.)
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agincourt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
31. If the vote is accurate at all,
it certainly shows that if BushRove want to screw your governor they can get away with it. It also shows not to try to balance your state budget unless it's legally mandated, or you won't last long as governor.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
33. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
37. The .....
... the sheeple have spoken. Spin it all you like, but enough Californians actually think this is a good idea to get Arnold in.

Unless there is a big discrepancy between the official results and the exit polls (and I've heard no evidence of that) then it's clear that the sheeple have made their decision.

I feel sorry for Democracy but not for California. They made their bed and now they can lie in it. To think that Arnold can solve problems better than Davis is beyond ludicrous. It is almost a "what the hell" vote. Their problems are going to get a lot worse before they get better. c'est la vie.
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DemNoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
38. I agree democracy is dead
The number of people who vote is not alone an indicator of a healthy democracy. A successful democracy depends on a well informed electorate.
What we have just seen is one of the worst decisions ever made by a body of voters in this country.

This election was a referendum on the intelligence of the voters; the outcome is horrifying.

One of the most complex political jobs in the world has just been given to a totally unqualified individual based entirely on celebrity and marketing. There is no reason to believe this is only a freak incident, it may become a trend. I think anything is possible now.

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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
42. whats wrong with Californians?
Edited on Wed Oct-08-03 09:09 PM by Ardee
The same thing that was wrong with the national electorate in the '00 elections I would imagine. I just knew that, after the victory for the dark side, if that is what it was, that many here at apology central would fly off the handle and blame everybody and everything in an effort to avoid the obvious.

Yeah, it was the rigged voting machines, yeah it was the media that failed to cover the democratic candidates, yeah ( well that was correct insofar as Camejo was concerned, only the San Jose Mercury News covered him), yeah it was the semiliterate voters , what were they thinking?

If, in a bastion of liberalism, a solidly democratic state like California the democrats could screw the pooch so very badly, if union members, latinos, women all deserted the democratic candidates (and there were, after all, two democrats in this race) in support of a man who has never held elective office, refused to debate, refused to speak in anything but generalities and won by smashing cars with a wrecking ball then some democrat somewhere has got to stop the sniveling and realise that the people are simply fed up with the same old verbiage, the same old empty promises, the same lukewarm bullshit!

This is far from the end of the world, Skippy, it is the end of the "it was all Naders fault" illusion. Arnold is, after all , a moderate republican, at least his indications are as he supports a womans right to choose, though not her right to choose to have him leave her alone, he supports gay rights, is moderate on gun control and ,best of all, has a solidly democratic legislature in Sacramento to stop any foolishness.

>http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/modules.php?op=modlo...


This was such a devastating defeat for the democrats that cooler heads than those here at DU will long ponder these results. If ,after this debacle, the party does not do a large amount of self evaluation then they can all become completely irrelevent and out of touch.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
43. Taps was played on Dec. 12, 2000...a day that will live in infamy
Edited on Wed Oct-08-03 09:06 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
44. Not yet.
Edited on Wed Oct-08-03 09:13 PM by Octafish
And not as long as the men and women in government service believe in the US Constitution.

Don't let the crapola from Kally-fornia fool ya. It's the best they can do right now, even with a captive media.

Why worry? We don't need no stinking stolen elections.

We the People the Good Guys got the Constitution on our side. And the Truth.

Image

"(It's) time for the human race
to enter the solar system."
Moron Governor George W. Bush Jr

EDIT: Darn HTMLization of brackets.
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