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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 09:57 AM
Original message
Cindy Sheehan attacks pro-war Dems
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/index.php?id=P2396

Cindy Sheehan Rails at the Democrats

Joshua Frank writes:

In a recent article in these pages, I criticized Cindy Sheehan for going soft on Hillary Clintons warmongering. Well, I was wrong. Sheehan hasnt gone soft on Clinton; she's attacked the New York senator for her hollow position on the Iraq conflict.

At a rally outside Hillary Clintons office in New York, Cindy Sheehan declared to the crowd on hand that Clinton must either speak out against the war or risk losing her job. In fact, New York antiwar advocates are hoping Sheehan will run against Clinton in the Democratic primaries in 2006. Others out West are hoping Sheehan will take on Dianne Feinstein in California.

In a recent interview with the Village Voice Sheehan contended that she was so frustrated by top Democrats like Hillary Clinton who should be leaders on this issue, but are not, arguing that it is time for them to step up and be the opposition party. This war is not going to end unless the Democrats are on board with us.

It sure would be nice if more antiwar activists were to follow Cindys lead on this one. If the majority of protesters took their protests to the front steps of each elected pro-war Democrat as well as Republican, we might have a big-time movement on our hands. Ill admit it; Sheehan is savvier than I gave her credit for. She knows that the antiwar movement should stick to the war, not lesser-evil politics. Too bad Sheehan wasnt making headlines during the 2004 elections; if she had been, the antiwar movement might have not been so soft on the pro-war Kerry campaign.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. The Vichy Democrats
will not oppose the war, since they think that Rush Limbaugh and his ilk will yell at them.

I would like to to see Sheehan run against Hilary or Feinstein. These people need a reality check.
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flordehinojos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
45. if cindy could beat HRC she would be a wonderful replacement for the NY
senator...but, if running against HRC would only cost New Yorkers a democratic seat in the senate .... then, it might not be such a good idea...although, frankly, with the kind of democrats milling around the senate these days..it is almost as if there were no democrats in the senate and only one stupid voice in the government.

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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. It's time to put up or shut up from the pro-war Dems, and BRING IT ON!
Either this is an immoral war or it isn't. Either this is an illegal war or it isn't. There is no middle ground. You are part of the problem or part of the solution. Make your choice, stand your ground and let the ballots fall where they may. The clear majority of Americans consider Iraq a mistake and want our troops back home. A clear majority. We don't support bushco*/exxon's dirty little oil way. We want our friends, our neighbors, our kids back home.

Stand up, be counted. You're either for bush* and his war of shame or your against the pretender and his wars of vanity and greed. Run Cindy, run. My only regret is that there's only one of you.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
3. She's RIGHT. The Dems had a chance after the DSM memo came out
to jump on that and say..."SEE! WE WERE LIED TO AND WE REGRET OUR IWR VOTES." Did they do that? HELL NO! THEN, Cindy led the anti-war movement and that was ANOTHER chance to jump on the issue. Did they do that? HELL NO! I hope she runs against Hillary or Feinstein. ALL the Dems need a wakeup call. I would work on Cindy's campaign!
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. DU'ers should help start financing her campaign, IMHO.
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 10:23 AM by Amonester
Contribute to Cindy Sheehan's election, I say! :bounce:
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
4. Glad I started attacking pro-war Democrats before Iraq was attacked
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
5. Cindy Sheehan for President. (The Disaster pResident can't...
...even compete with her in any "way" I can think of)!!

:patriot:
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
6. Message to Capitol Hill Dems: Either grow a spine or resign. . .
:kick:
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KingFlorez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
7. Cindy should stop
The Democrats are not who she should be attacking, since most are against the war.
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Blah blah blah....
That opinion might have worked here even a year ago.

But it's time for these people to put up or shut up. People are pissed off, and they're getting more pissed off all the time.

WE PAY THEIR SALARIES TO VOICE OUR OPINIONS FOR US. They're not doing that. They're sitting back and letting us be pissed on instead.

These idiots are taking up space where we could have REAL liberals in the chair, not Republican wanna-bes.

And if they don't cut the cord of that albatross from around their necks, they're going to begin losing in droves. I myself have no problem voting against them.

FSC
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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Most are against the war????
What planet are you living on?

What about the unqualified support for the continuation of the illegal occupation of Iraq by such "leaders" as Howard Dean, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, etc, etc.?
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. These people did not support the invasion, they support not
letting the place turn into a terrorist quagmire after Bush's wreckless invasion. Dems cautioned that once we went in we may not be able to leave for some time, this was ONE of many reasons to oppose this war.

There is a difference between supporting the invasion and supporting the so called occupation. In fact, Cindy's point is that we need to "start" bringing troops home. She uses language like "bring them home now" but even she is not for the immediate withdrawl of troops according to her statements on last nights "Hawdbaw."

I support Cindy, I support Dean. I realize that even intelligent people disagree at times.

As to who's position I support on Iraq, I don't think we should be there. But, I'm open minded at this point, beyond that. In principle I support cindy, but in reality - it's not that simple ... ???
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frictionlessO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
61. I agree somewhat, but is already a terrorist quagmire because we are
there.

Supporting occupation is not good for anyone except for Bushcos corporate lovers.

Bushco will never accept any plan from the left (and lets not forget that millions of us were screaming our heads off not to sign onto the IWR, because we knew it was a sham and so did the ones who sgned it because we saw many not sign onto it for that very reason). Its not about plans anymore its about all Dems standing united and holding this entire administration accountable on every single thing about the worst stain that has ever been put upon our nation in its entire history. There is no working with these people, so like Cindy has urged its time to just stop everything else and focus on anything that will indict and impeach these war criminal and their profiteer cronies in the corp sector.


Countless millions the world over were saying the inspectors are not finding a damn thing that the intelligence was being fixed and that the fall out was going to be horrendous to the Iraqi people, to the American people and more over to the world in general but our allies in particular.

If an idiot like me could figure out what was going on well before the war then why the hell couldn't most of our leaders?

That being said, this is not about reviewing the past, its about what do we do now. The answer to that if you want to end the illegal and immoral occupation of Iraq is indictment of nearly the entire administration. If you want free and clear and verifiable elections, indictments. If you want better deals for unions and the working class, indictments. If you want to try and save the environment, indictments. Civil an dgay rights, indictments. If you want anything these guys don't, indictment is your only way out.

For any so called Dem not to see this plain and ugly truth and to focus on anyting that will not lead to it is in my and millions of others views, unthinkable. There is no more coming across the aisle on our side, if the righties want to bring back their party in an honorable less extremist and fanatical form than they will cross over to us. If not... than nothing has really changed anyway... we have nothing to lose but countless lives to save and there just is no other way.

Our Dem leaders must shift all focus to this, becaus they are not going to get elected in any meaningful numbers, they are not going to end the occupation, they are not going to help get much needed GLBT rights, they are not going to shore up the education system, they are not going to be able to help the poor of this country in any significant way. If the stood up en mass united and started doing counter offensives every day against the spread of lies and revisionist history (a sorta shadow gov. like many of us suggested when Kerry conceded), and spoke truth to power in plain language the majority would rally strong behind them and the apathetic masses whose votes would be far more valuable and larger in number than the mysterious middle, would come to our side finally because we are presenting a distinct opposing view.

Then again... this is just my feeling.

Sorry for the rant and I really only disagree with that one point I made at the beggining.
Stay strong and level headed, we need that.

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. Thanks fictionlessO
I really think were in a no-win situation, and it's a matter of figuring out how we lose the "least" in the short - and long term. :(

Peace
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
75. "so called occupation"
is there a better word for it? BTW, it just happens to be illegal, always was, always will be.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. I don't have any other suggestions for the word "occupation."
I meant not to imply that there is a better term. In fact, were I to think of a better word, I'd call it the "haliburon-ation." ;)

As for me personally - I was ALWAYS opposed to this war, and the shit that's going on in Iraq today, is PART of the reason I was opposed. I knew that once we went in we would destabalize the region even more and we'd have a potential civil war/terrorist haven on our hands. I knew that we'd create a much larger problem then Saddam Hussein. We'll unfortunately, I was right and so were many who marched against this war along side me. We are in a no win situation as far as I see it, thanks to Bush-co.

This President never had a plan to get out, only a plan to make a buck. And, here we are today.

Democrats need to devise an exit strategy and demand Bush use it.
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imperialismispasse Donating Member (836 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
84. If I remember right
Hillary did vote yes on the war. So yeah she did support the invasion.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. She supported "war as a last resort" and urged caution to my recollection.
The only notable Dems who were gung ho to my recollection were Miller and Lieberman.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
34. No, I want her to keep on. Too many Dems are wishy-washy about the war
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 12:12 PM by katinmn
I believe it is naive to think that we can fix the problems in Iraq.
Can the same imbeciles that lied to get us into the war, suddenly
become geniuses who are capable of crafting a peaceful exit strategy?

I believe it is naive of Dean and others who claim we can have "an
orderly disengagement from Iraq," and further that withdrawal
creates "a risk of civil war."

Iraq is already in a civil war. Even CBS News admits that.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/26/eveningnews/m...
Not only is it in a civil way -- it's a three or four-way civil
war that extends to all neighboring countries. There is no possible
way that any US administration - Republican or Democrat -- can
neatly arrange peace and democracy in the region and leave with the
whole package tied up with a pretty blue ribbon.

Our occupation of Iraq has been wrong since the beginning. Ethnic
tensions have long existed but the US presence and favoritism toward
one group over the others have added to the problems exponentially.
The very best thing we can do is get out, and get out now to prevent
our own country's further decline.

edit: fixed link
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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
59. "Iraq is already in a civil war" - Yes!!
What many people seem to be missing in this discussion is the fact that the major cause of the problems in Iraq is due to the continued occuptation by the U.S. military.

If the troops were to leave now, the situation is more likely to improve than worsen. I'm not saying that all the fighting will all of a sudden stop, but by removing the illegal occupation, the situation has a better chance of being resolved.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
8. Good for Cindy, it is about time that ALL warmongers get called out
Every single person who voted for the IWR, for the increasing war funding bills, or who wants to put in more troops and material into the war needs to be called on the carpet and kicked out of office. People are dying due to this illegal immoral war, and we need to leave now. Contininuing to support the war, out of either genuine convictions or out of political expediency puts all of that innocent blood on their hands too.

There are no sacred cows when it comes to this issue, I don't care if it Bush or Hillary, if you supported this war, you've got to go now. Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter, a warhawk is a warhawk, and they have all got to go.
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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. Well said, MadHound!
This is the #1 issue right now, in my opinion.

This govenrment has wasted enough lives and resources as it is. And we have so-called Democrats calling for throwing good money after bad, not to mention the precious lives that will be wasted with this policy.

Make no doubt about it: this is about the insane plan for Global Empire and anybody who supports it should be held accountable.
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Mizmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
9. All we like to do is beat up our Democratic leaders
God help us if we ever, you know, supported them. Of course we are totally unable to help them or ourselves so they do what they have to to survive.

Maybe if they knew they could count on us they'd be less wishy-washy.
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. How difficult is it...
to take a progressive position for the progressives that support you and then stick to it?

They're more worried about their donations from fat cats and their pork barrel crap than they are about us.

There are a few Congress critters that follow their hearts and stand up for their constituents, and they are beloved. The rest of them are wishy washy because they're afraid their funds and their Washington buddy network will dry up.

Quel dommage.
FSC
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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. "They do what they have to to survive"???
So, in your opinion, supporting a criminal war that has made this country less safe, cost tens of thousands of lives, wasted hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars, is what you have to do to survive?????
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Mizmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. She can't count on her progressive base
so she doesn't take progressive positions.

Should politics work differently? Yes, of course, but here we are with the system we've got and nary a progressive leader in office.

But let's blame them and not look in the mirror, shall we?
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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. So truth and justice are all thrown away in the
name of political expediency?

Are you forgetting that this administration lied about every aspect of this war? So for political expediency we should go along with a string of lies that has cost this country dearly?

What about the thousands and thousands of innocent Iraqis slaughtered in a war based on lies? So war crimes are dismissed in the name of political expediency?

Is that the state this country has come to?

Thankfully, people like Cindy Sheehan are answering NO to this question.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. Screw leaders. Democracy is not about leaders, it's about people. nt
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
32. They "counted on us" in 2004....
...and we responded. ABB! Many TRUE Liberals worked for, donated to, campaigned for, and voted for a "Pro-War Anti-Labor" Democratic Party Presidential Candidate and Platform.

Never again!
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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
63. I second this post - no more votes for pro-war Dems! - nt
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
19. Pro war, or Anti-quagmiracle terrorist haven.
Dean's position is that we should never have invaded Iraq, but since we have and Bush f-d it up so badly, we have no choice but to thread water until we can be guaranteed that leaving won't be a danger to the US - when it wasn't before the invasion.

I understand Cindy's position, and respect it. I also understand Dean's position and respect it.
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Careful, that sort of common-sense position is treasonous 'round here
and will get you flamed quicker than you can say "well-thought out".

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
57. LOL - Ohhhhhhhhhhh believe me, I've been flamed!
:hi:
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. mzmolly, I understand your position, however....
Now, you need to do someone a favor and follow through with your words to concrete action.

Get yourself to the nearest recruiting station. there are many troops that do not respect Dean's position, and want to get home. Having fresh volunteers in Iraq would help.

I don't say this with any meanness, I would wish that you would reconsider your position, or have the courage to follow through on what you believe.

Dean has adult children he could encourage to go to what he nows considers an important job, it would certainly enhance my respect of him if he said he has encouraged them to sign-up.

For those of us who consider this whole invasion, and every continuing moment of the occupation a crime against humanity, we will to do all within our power to bring the troops home NOW.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Both of you need to find and read Dean's latest interviews.
He is changing on this issue. Look it up.

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Do you have a snip of his position today?
I know Dean continually examines the evidence and is not afraid to adjust his position when facts change. I respect his opinion because of that.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. His FTN and MTP interviews both.
And other statements made. He can NOT go against what is in the DNC platform at this point...that the Iraq war must succeed...or something like that. But he is recognizing the danger.

I am tired of the ones going after him on this issue. They should be going after the ones who supported and voted for it...and they not back him into a corner as chair.

If this be official PDA policy, I think it may backfire on them.

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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. It really doesn't matter what Dean or Sheehan think...
What matters is that we've FUCKED Iraq up. His position means a hill of beans, when their infrastructure is in tatters and people are dying as a direct result of our actions. Go tell an Iraqi mother whose children are starving that Howard Dean has her back. Yippee.

Yes, it is an immoral war, and an immoral occupation. But to abandon the Iraqis lock stock and barrel after the fact is even more immoral. Downright evil, if you ask me. Where's the justice in that?

Yes, US troops are dying, and it's terrible. Obviously the position we're in is untenable, for both the Iraqis and the US. But we have to find another solution to do RIGHT by the Iraqis. It's our moral obligation.

I want to hear a plan that saves both US lives and rebuilds Iraq, not just knee-jerk "troops home now" or another masturbatory statement from Dem leadership. I don't pretend to have the answer, but we all know it ain't gonna be found with Bush at the helm and Halliburton at the trough.
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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
60. "a plan that saves both US lives and rebuilds Iraq"
Here's a plan: turn it over to an international group. Yes, the U.S. can be a part of it, but the control of what they do should not be in U.S. hands.

Of course, this will never happen, because the reason this administration and their Democratic supporters started this thing is to maintain control in Iraq for the oil, and also as a strategic base of operations for controlling the region.
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #60
66. There's one option...
That's more positive proactive thinking than I've heard from both Dean and Sheehan. That's what I'm talking about!

The DEMS started this war?!? Man, pass whatever you're smoking. To equate voting for a war based on manufactured intel to actually starting it is a logically-challenged position.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #60
90. We can't do that - Halliburton might lose a contract or two!!
:sarcasm:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #31
62. Paternalistic, "white man's burden"
BULLSHIT. Iraqis will have one less pitbull attacking their families, culture, economy and infrastructure with the *MIC OUT of their country.
These protestations of "altruism" are sickeningly disingenuous. The United States has invaded, occupied and RAPED Iraq. Your troops are continuing that POLICY in the prisons there UNABATED.

GET THE RAPIST OUT OF THE ROOM.

The very idea that he should "stay to clean up the victim's private parts" is an appalling mentality. The Iraqis are not some clueless primitives, unable to work things out in THEIR OWN WAY. Doing RIGHT by them is acknowledging the fact that they are COMPETENT in the context of THEIR society. "Abandon them," indeed. :puke: Take your troops, mercenaries, corporations, weapons and self-righteous bullshit back to your own shores where it belongs.
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #62
71. Catchy rape metaphor! Can't get enough of it!
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 01:43 PM by Hobarticus
Simple, brutal, and sensationalistic. Only an asshole would argue with it. BushCo would be proud. What next, telling me I hate America?

When you're done with your rant, consider that I never said the Iraqis are clueless primitives. I do believe that we owe them the benefit of the doubt to rebuild their society without our involvement, but it's kinda hard to rebuild their society with NO FREAKIN' INFRASTRUCTURE. They don't even have the means to rebuild it if they wanted to. A constitution that they 'wrote themselves' doesn't do anybody any good if they can't read it in the dark.

Read some history. The Russians walked out of Afghanistan without doing anything to clean up their mess. Afghanistan is a third-world nation as a result, ripe for religious extremism and lawlessness which encourages things such as rape. Hard to get the rapist out of the room when he's there to begin with.

And if it's white man's burden (nice touch, you're firing on all cylinders now!) to want to get their electrical grid and water system back up and running after we bombed the fuck out of it, then call me burdened. And equating that with "wanting to clean up the victim's privates"...jeezus, I'm speechless.

Ask Cindy if she thinks her son's a rapist, by your definition.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
87. Well said!
We created this situation. We should have never been there, but we are and we can't ignore it and hope it will go away. We left the Iraqis in dire straits before (see Bush #1) and we can not do that again. We've really really screwed this up, but we could make a change today and start repairing the mess we've made.

Big question is: who will do that? So far NO ONE I've heard has a good plan or a way out without hurting the Iraqis further.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Puleeze.
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 11:49 AM by mzmolly
I did not support this war, and I never supported the US military enough to enlist. The people who joined have already done so and I feel for them. Unfortunately, most of the military supported Bush in the past election, so they likely supported the invasion as well.

Have you ever supported any war? How bout WW2 or intervention in Rwanda?
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tatertop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
74. have you enlisted yet?
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. Did you enlist for Rwanda, or were you opposed to US intervention?
My father served in a war known as Vietnam and I am as opposed to that war as I am this one. I don't think people who are opposed to the war should enlist, you?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
76. are you saying that leaving
would create a danger to the US? How?

please consider also that the longer we have stayed the worst the violence has become. IMO, our very presence there is what gives credibility to the suicide bombers etc. to many across the ME.
If our occupation fuels the violence, I dread to think what 'treading more water' there will result in. This situation is in downward spiral, and NOTHING we have been doing is helping.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. I'm saying that it may. I don't know, I haven't all the answers thus I
have to rely on Democrats whom I respect to give me the what's what. Are you saying that it was wrong to have trepidation about going in because getting out would be difficult? Are you saying that when we leave peace will suddenly break out in Iraq and the terrorists will go home? Are you saying that womens rights will be strengthened when we leave and the likes of the Taliban won't take over?

What I propose is that Democrats (a think tank) come up with an exit strategy and demand Bush use it. I don't claim to have all the answers. I remain open minded frankly.

As I've said in principle I'm opposed to remaining in Iraq, but in reality - I don't know that leaving will make everything alright?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. one thing is for certain
The Neo-Cons with Bush have opened a Pandora's Box releasing terrible "demons" that can't be put back. What these people have done is so seriously castistrophic, there cannot be a 'happy ending' to this.

I support all the Ds that are calling for an exit plan. It is just that I believe those running the show now cannot do ANYTHING that doesn't create more evil. Their motives are so contrary to peace. Nothing good can happen as long as Rumsfeld, Cheney etc. are calling shots. Therefore we disagree on a simple premise I suppose, but I know that we both want the best.
It just amplifies the horrific crime that has been done. All roads are fraught with suffering and tradgedy.
:cry:


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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. I agree ...
this is a no win situation. There is no "pretty" way out of the mess Bush has made.

I join you in your tears :cry:
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
77. I would love to understand the "Pottery Barn" Dems,
but until someone can explain to me how killing more Iraqis is suddenly going to "fix" the problem, I will remain skeptical and support an immediate cease fire and withdrawal ALL American Forces and Corporations. Things are NOT getting better, they ARE getting worse and will continue to deteriorate unless SOMETHING changes. The US has absolutely NO CREDIBILITY in Iraq or the World.

I DO believe that in the immediate "Cease Fire and Withdrawal" scenario, the UN WILL step in if they can be assured that there will be no inteferenced from the US or US Corporations.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. If I believed that the moment we left "killing" would cease, I'd be right
behind you. As for the "pottery barn" analogy, it's part of the Geneva Convention. Granted the current administration does not give a rip about the GC, but Democrats should. Also the UN has said they WILL NOT step in because Iraq is too dangerous. It's a shame what Bush has gotten us into. A bloody damn shame.

I propose a Democratic think thank devise an exit strategy and then demand * use it. But, until we have a cohesive, well thought out strategy were just flapping our lips in the wind.

:hi:
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
20. It is the cover provided by pro-war Dems . .
. . that gives this admin the ability to torture with impunity and give sweetheart deals to their political buddies - knowing that a Dem party in dissarray over the war will never go after them over this.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
22. I would like to know what she said about Dean at the PDA meeting.
There is a diary at Kos right now by one of the leaders of PDA, and it is really upsetting to read. Dean's write-up about their meeting was very appreciative of her, a nice article.

The diary at Daily Kos by David Swanson is very divisive.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Kick because I want to know.
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 12:00 PM by madfloridian
Apparently at PDA she said she told Dean off or something. The diary at Kos by the director is insulting to a good man. Dean was quite glowing in his praise of Cindy.

I don't like these tactics.

http://david-swanson.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/28/1...

Dean is an honest man, he is one who stood up for us. If this is PDA's position now, and by many accounts I understand it may be....then it is a shame.

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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. David asks an important question:
"Does Dean have any idea what the most pressing concern of most Democrats is and which position they take on it? "

It is the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE. Just because some think it is too "hard" doesn't mean they can continue to sweep it under the rug.

Put up or shut up and move aside for others who will do the dirty work.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. "Put up or shut up?"
So you consider Dean is doing the dirty work for the party? What a shame that is.

We have our own weekly rallies with Peace and Justice. I don't like to be told to put up or shut up.



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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Don't put words in my mouth
I said if Dems find the issue too difficult, they should step aside and let others who are more brave deal with the issue. It is the single most important issue and we're tired of being ignored and going without representation.

No where did I say Dean was doing dirty work.

And it is a presumptuous statement for you to imply you do more than I do as far as working for peace.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. A contest?
I just wanted you to know I did not sit on my butt. I am tired of being treated like I do. This is like a spitting contest for peace, only the DNC and Howard Dean will be the victims.

I hate this. You can not even give me credit when you see the pictures.

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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. My comment was addressed to elected officials
Are you one of those? If not, you shouldn't be all bent out of shape.

Pictures are not germaine to this discussion about the lack of representation by elected officials.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. What I do is germaine to the discussion.
I am very active in anti-war events, and I do get "bent out of shape" when I am talked to like that.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. Again, what did she say about the meeting.
I don't see anything written down, and I would have to go through all the videos at PDA, which I am not going to do.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
30. Start a Camp Casey at every legislators home office:
http://meetwiththemothers.org /

I signed up to be a point person for all visits to my legislators.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
35. Another mud-slinger by Swanson from PDA board...what's going on?
This one is entitled Is Dean Drunk? Really really cute.

http://www.democrats.com/node/6284


Home Blogs davidswanson's blog
Is Dean Drunk?
Submitted by davidswanson on September 28, 2005 - 10:37am.Howard Dean
By David Swanson

Cindy Sheehan met with Howard Dean last Saturday.

Then she showed up at a Progressive Democrats of America conference on Sunday and recounted what had happened at the meeting. Dean, she said, had showed her his plan to build the Democratic Party, which included a long platform of issues. That list did not acknowledge the existence of the war.

Cindy said she asked Dean whether the war would be part of the agenda. He replied, she said, that he'd like it to be but couldn't figure out how, because it was such a hard question. "Hire me," Cindy said she'd told him, "because I don't think it's hard!"

Now Dean has released a statement bragging about the fact that he met with Cindy and suggesting that people should meaninglessly "support her" whether or not they support the war.

Does Dean have any idea what the most pressing concern of most Democrats is and which position they take on it? If so, is he experiencing any neurological problems? Is he just drunk? Can we get a Congressional investigation?

______________

cindy's statement may be included in the video of the PDA event on Truthout.org
http://www.truthout.org/multimedia.htm


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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. There are too many people who demand black/white thinking on the issues.
"Your unpatriotic or you support the war."
"Your for the war or against the occupation."

It's all bullshit.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Yes, you are right.
It is BS.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. And don't you love the title: "Is Dean Drunk?" I mean, wow.
:hi:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. It just goes to show you the level of intelligence possessed by the
black/white thinkers. ;)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. And the comments are divisive as well.
For the communications person of PDA to be asking "Is Dean drunk?" is a little bit pathetic to me.

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #64
89. Indeed it is. What's progressive about that shit?
:shrug:
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #38
91. Bravo!
:applause:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Thanks
and welcome! :hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
HoosierClarkie Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Why don't you go and take a vacation....
it seems that's all your kind are capable of. It might help your bitterness.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
HoosierClarkie Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:43 PM
Original message
People die
from bitterness. It really is time to take a vacation. Have a nice trip. :patriot:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. People would be ALIVE today that are not with Saddam in power.
Now YOU TELL ME, how removing Saddam improved your self centered existence? How has removing Saddam made 'MERIKA, safer?
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Translation: "I have a liplock on Dubya's arse!"
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. LOL!
:thumbsup:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #40
52. Well, now weren't you people livid about Clintons blowjob. And aren't
you all crying in your whisky about the pro-choice issue? Perhaps you and Limbaugh and Hannity and your pathetic pretentious buddies should be the ones who leave this country.

I realize that most Republicans have their basic needs met, but the fact remains that many children in THIS country do NOT have enough food to eat, don't have health insurance, don't have that home and two cars you do. As for me, I want things to get better. You go ahead and settle for "every man for himself-ism" and make sure your get your ass to Church this Sunday so you can live with yourself.
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faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. Not the whole US, just your ilk!!
" you make the US out to be a demon bent on world domination and destruction."
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
53. As well as she should! eom
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
58. Cindy's bought into her own hype
She told an NPR interviewer just as an a scheduled interview was getting underway that "I have two minutes." Needless to say, the NPR person was incredulous. "Er, you have two minutes?"

Then there are Cindy's friends, like wacko anti-semite Malik Rahim. Plus Cindy's comments about "military occupation" in New Orleans. Clearly, someone on the left has been making her drink left-wing kool aid.

I liked some of the other Gold Star anti-war moms better. They were more down-to-earth, less willing to stray from the subject of the war, less to start talking about other topics they know nothing about.
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #58
73. Yeah, she's not exactly helping herself.
Exhibiting the same kind of black-and-white thinking that got us where we are now. I'm glad to see someone else seeing that.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #73
88. Uh oh, hobarticus and brentspeak...
You may get in trouble for that kind of talk here! I did the other day. :spank:

That said, I have to agree. My point Monday (yes, I'll dare say it again) is that IMO I'm afraid Cindy's crossed over the point where we're now losing more than we're gaining. She's alienating people while we're trying to win support for the anti-war movement. I think she did a great thing by "rallying the troops" but maybe she just needs to take a breather, take a moment to step back and think before her next step.

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
65. Pro-war politicians of either party should be challenged.
Good for Cindy. I hope she does challenge DLChillary in the primary.
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BigBearJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
67. I'd vote for Cindy in a heartbeat. Conyers/Sheehan 2008!!!!
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Now that's the ticket! Conyers/Sheehan! Woo Hoo!
Edited on Wed Sep-28-05 01:19 PM by TheGoldenRule
:applause:

:woohoo:
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Ahem.
:eyes:
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
72. This war is not going to end unless the Democrats are on board with us."
--Cindy Sheehan

True! But also, this war is not going to end unless we Democrats clean up the corruption in our own party connected to the $4 billion electronic voting boondoggle.

The lavish lobbying and "revolving door" employment and other crap that is going on has led to DEMOCRATIC election officials signing contracts for their states that include SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code in election systems owned, controlled and serviced by far right wing Bushite corporations--mainly Diebold and ES&S. All Democrats are now beholden to these companies and to their bought and paid for election officials, and not to the voters.

Unless this is changed, we can only expect more of the same--death, destruction, impoverishment and war profiteering.

It cannot be changed at the federal level. Bush's "pod people" in Congress and collusive Democrats are the ones who created this election system disaster, and there is no way, now, to force them to undo it. I wouldn't want them to go anywhere near election reform--they will only make it worse.

It must be done at the state/local level, where power over election systems still resides, and where ordinary people still have some influence. We need...

1. Paper ballots hand-counted at the precinct level (--Canada does it in one day, although speed should not even be a consideration, just accuracy and verifiability)

or, at the least...

2. Paper ballot (not "paper trail") backup of all electronic voting, a 10% automatic recount, very strict security, and NO SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code! (...jeez!).


Throw Diebold and ES&S election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' NOW!

------------

I would prefer to see Cindy Sheehan as president. But I will settle for her as U.S. Senator from California to replace Diane Feinstein. Good God, can you imagine a REAL PERSON--one of the unprivileged, and a victim of this horrible war--running for such an office? The voter turnout would be enormous, and, if it weren't for Diebold and ES&S, I'd predict an 80% to 90% win the primary, and 60% to 70% in the election.

Imagine having a Senator who got arrested at the White House for protesting the death of her son in this unjust war! Just imagine it! Wow!

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True American Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-28-05 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
83. I know there was somthing more to 911
Have you read the Sibel Edmond's story. I never know about this story until today. I urge everyone to read this story about the Bush Cover up. The Aurthur is Real Time.

Post a reply to Real Time in order to keep this story front and centered.

The Truth will prevail.

True American.
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