debit credit pre-authorization charges go up. way up

[DJ MEW]

If you pay at the pump the next time you buy gas be aware that the gas station is going to be putting a pre-authorization charge on your account.

This charge used to be 1 dollar and you would always get that dollar back once your debit or credit card was completely billed for the gas you bought.

I bought gas yesterday morning and then checked my account last night online. To my surprise the station I went to had put a 100 dollar pre-authorization charge on my account.

I contacted my bank to ask them what was up with that, and since it caused me to be slightly over drafted if I was going to be charged for the overdraft fees. The bank informed me that the 100 dollar pre-authorization charge has been talked about for quite some time but that I was the first person to report it and no they do not consider it over drafted if it is from a pre-authorization charge.

It has been over 24 hours and the 100 dollars is still listed as the charge. I have also noticed with these pre-auth charges that ,Speedway gas stations especially, it can take many days for the correct total to be charged and the pre-auth charge to be refunded.

[justiceischeap]

1. So, if you don't have $100 in your checking account

You can't get gas... Joy.

[DJ MEW]

6. You should be okay to buy it still

if you don't have it in your account your over draft protection should take care of it but that is a dangerous assumption to make.

[Justice]

2. wow, this is pretty important,

particularly the lag in correcting the total/refunding the pre-auth charge. Who gets the float on that money?

[KyndCulture]

3. $100? ok that's the first that I've heard.

It's usually only $75

seriously.... they usually only hold $75.00 from your account. Don't pay at the pump with a debit card!!!

[amber dog democrat]

4. So what does this mean ?

Are consumers loaning them money? This will motivate me to pay cash instead.

[ET Awful]

5. It varies by station. Many stations don't put any pre-authorization

While I hate buying from Mobil, they are the cheapest gas close to me, and they always put $1 on until the full charge is processed, no problem at all.

Your best bet is to tell the machine that you're paying by credit card (it always asks if you're paying credit or debit, always choose credit, as long as your card has the Visa or MC logo, it will treat it as such). OR, go in to the store and pre-pay for a specific dollar amount at the register using your card, just like you would 10 years ago. "I want $20 on pump 5." Pay with the card, enter your PIN, etc. that way they can't put a hold on anything.

[insane_cratic_gal]

9. Most places don't allow you to pre-pay

with anything but cash.

At least that has been my experience, they never allowed me to pre-pay with a debit/credit card. But then again I never specially requested that they use it as a debit card.

I know they don't with Credit card because the process of refunding the anything extra is a pain in the ass for them. Which is absurd because 20 dollars in case is only 7 gallons of gas. My lawn mower can handle that much gas!

[ET Awful]

10. Any station that can allow you to pre-pay with cash can allow you

to pre-pay with a debit card. Just tell them exactly how much you want ($20 is just an example, it can be $40, $50 whatever, just tell them you want it and put it on the debit card. I've never NOT been able to do it).

[whatever4]

12. Any station that can allow you to pre-pay with cash...

Many will not let you pay with cash, so they will not let you pre-pay with cash either.

[ET Awful]

17. Other than extremely high crime areas, I have never encountered a

service station anywhere that won't accept cash. In fact, in many areas they require you to pre-pay with cash or otherwise before they even turn on the pump.

[whatever4]

23. Well then, aren't you the fortunate one

And to hell with all those that aren't?

Yes, that is, indeed, the answer. To hell with anyone that runs into this problem. They aren't shopping around enough.

[ET Awful]

29. Take a valium and relax. The answer is actually to hell with those

who won't take the initiative to figure out how to avoid the charges.

Tell you what, find me verifiable proof of a gas station that won't allow you to pre-pay with cash.

[whatever4]

36. Thanks, but no, I'm done sleeping

through this mess of a nation and all the corruption. It's what got us into the state we're in now, too many people writing off stuff like this as unimportant.

We all know gas prices are getting more and more "important", and this issue is directly related to thatlarge, looming problem. It's inescapable, gas prices will affect us all.

This issue hurts people, blindsides them, and anyone that doesn't think it's wrong just doesn't care period.

Same attitude I heard about the Iraq war. Don't worry. No big deal. Sure.

Show you a gas station that doesn't accept cash? Not to be rude, but if you've never seen or even heard of this, it's hardly my fault you're that unaware. As I said, not your problem, and you're banking on the premise it won't ever BE your problem.

I hope you're right.

[ET Awful]

41. Presumptuous a tad aren't you?

I drive A LOT, I buy gas in a LOT of places. If it's a station I'm unfamiliar with, I pay inside, and I have them run the debit card as a credit card. If they run it after the purchase (as in you don't pre-pay), they can't put a hold, they can only charge the actual amount of purchase. If I must pre-pay, I tell them a specific amount.

Sorry, but laziness and not educating yourself on the way these things work isn't my fault, it's yours.

[whatever4]

46. Sorry, but you said it, not me. You've never seen those "no cash" places

and you asked to be told about those "no cash, no pre-pay" places

Perhaps you guy gas regularly. Again, this seems to not be your problem, and you seem to presume it isn't a real problem for anyone. That's a terrible attitude to have, now, in our nation, and it doesn't help anyone.

A business practice meant to prey on the less fortunate should be a target for us all, whether it seems likely to hurt "us" or not.

Or is it okay? Like the bankruptcy reforms? Care to offer your opinion on that one as well?

Keep the name calling "laziness and not educating yourself". It's not going to work. Shill.

[ET Awful]

52. So now, in your opinion, steps taken by a small business owner

to protect himself from being preyed upon by thieves is preying upon the little person?

You don't know a damn thing about how these stations operate do you?

[spinbaby]

62. Sam's Club/Wal-Mart

None of the Sam's Club/Wal-Mart gas stations accept cash.

[ET Awful]

68. Really? That one I can't comment on because I don't do business

with either for obvious reasons. Then again, there aren't any Wal-Mart's/Sam's Club's in my area that sell gas I don't think. . . Do you know of any in New England?

[Carni]

33. Wow here in my area they pretty much make you pre-pay

You pay the 30 bucks or whatever and the pump shuts itself off when you reach what you have paid for.

[ET Awful]

38. Most gas stations are like that. Especially ones where there is

high traffic or high crime rates. They do it to avoid theft.

[whatever4]

11. So we'll just hope they don't ALL switch to it

That's what this means, right? I'm crossing my little fingers that all gas stations don't decide to adopt this practice.

And I guess I'm not at all worried, if that happens, about the many, many people who don't have credit/debit cards. They ought to. Sure. If they don't, it's their problem...and they will certainly continue to have problems now.

Not like bankruptcy hasn't ruined finances for a few folks. Not like credit card debt/usage isn't something people are trying to move away from. NO, heck no, USE those cards damnit.

Forget about our youngest adults who don't have a lot of credit yet, and not a lot of money either. Heck with them, they'll get by. WE did, right? I got mine!!!!!!!! Yeah...

Better have a card. You have problems if you don't have a card. You don't need to drive if you don't.

If the gas stations decide.

We'll just cross our little fingers they don't all do the same thing. Like with pay at the pump pumps...they don't ALL have those pay-at-the-pump pumps now. It's so convenient, many people depend on it now, I like it myself, using those pay-at-the-pump machines, but not all stations have them.

Just most of them.

MOST of them.

[ET Awful]

15. Sorry, but I don't get upset over things like this.

For one, I never use credit cards, only my debit card.

I have NEVER had a problem.

I'm sorry if that extra 2 minutes to run into the store and pay at the cashier is too much trouble for you.

They are covering their own ass. As prices go up, so will the amount of the holds placed by the vendors who place holds. Why? Because all the machine does is verify you have funds in the bank. If it acknowledges you have funds, and you pump $50 worth of gas but only have $10 in your account, the purchase has already been approved and the vendors is in the lurch for the balance.

Unlike buying something inside, once the approval is processed, the pump is already running and won't shut off until you shut it off. It's a CYA by the merchant.

[whatever4]

25. Of course not. It's not your problem.

And that's just all there is to it.

To hell with the little guy. He's got problems anyway, if he ain't got a credit card. Got to have a credit card, else you've got problems buddy you've got problems.

Heck with them.

All of "them".

[ET Awful]

31. To hell with the little guy? I AM THE LITTLE GUY

Don't you think you're just a little self-righteous?

[whatever4]

48. Yeah, sure you are. But you've never seen a "no cash" station

And further, you aren't worried about having $100 tacked onto your account for any and all gasoline purchases. But you're a little guy. Sure.

[ET Awful]

55. Once again, you don't know jack shit about me.

I'm through with your ignorance.

Your arrogance and ignorance isn't worth wasting time on. You don't read what I say, you just attack.

Bye bye.

[whatever4]

59. And I don't want to, it wouldn't be flattering nm

[Occulus]

84. I've read every word you've written on this thread

and I still think you are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Which you are, from the perspective of people who WILL be harmed by this practice.

[ET Awful]

86. Why do you look at only one side of the debate?

Why do you have no concern for small business owners?

I carry an average balance in my checking account of under $100. I have no savings. If I get into a major snag, I'm fucked. But gues what . . . I ask questions, I pay attention to what I'm being charged, by who and for what, and I avoid every hold and fee possible whenever possible to avoid major problems.

I'm not opposed to the practice per se. What I WOULD like to see is a return to the requirement that large notices be placed on the pumps notifying customers of the hold (I know of a couple of stations around here that have big signs to that effect).

[Occulus]

32. yeah. ET basically said

"fuck you! It's your own damn fault!"

How very..... republican.

[ET Awful]

34. Gee, nothing I said conveyed that at all. . . good job of twisting words

You might want to try reading the DU rules before making your personal attacks.

Actually what I said is I am in the SAME SITUATION as him, and I know how to avoid the charges and do so.

I don't use credit cards to pay for gas, I use a debit card or cash. I have taken the time to learn which stations near me make ridiculous holds and which don't. I've taken the time to educate myself on how to avoid the charges by paying inside the store, etc.

Save your personal attacks.

[Occulus]

39. And what we're all saying is, they shouldn't be able to do this, PERIOD.

You're siding with the stations and restaurants, claiming it's okay for them to put a hold on YOUR money, above and beyond what their actual charges are. It honestly does sound like you're saying "tough shit" to everyone who can't be as perfect with their money as you claim to be.

[ET Awful]

43. No, I'm saying that as prices increase, the likelihood of

theft increases. As theft increases, steps must be taken to decrease said theft. If it is not decreased, prices increase MORE to compensate for the increase in theft.

If you don't like it, pay inside, pay cash, pre-pay, any number of things you can do besides run your debit card into a slot, punch in your PIN and pray.

You can't work the system unless you learn how the system works. I game the system constantly, and I don't get nailed.

It's a matter of educating yourself on how to avoid the charges.

[Nihil]

88. FWIW

I've actually READ your posts and it is pretty clear to me that you
are not trying to blame people but, in fact, help the other DUers
before they get into trouble.

Thank you for your time & effort.

It's a shame that some of your more vocal attackers haven't bothered
to appreciate that your suggestions might educate and assist readers
more than their repeated cries of "shill".

There is no way that a pre-auth charge should last longer than a few
hours past the transaction timestamp - that sounds like someone is
either doing it wrong or spreading it a bit thick (could be either the
trader or the bank).

At the end of the day, if you couldn't be bothered to walk to the
till, you are willingly accepting this temporary surcharge.
Rich, poor, middle class or whatever: your laziness is costing you money.

[ET Awful]

91. Thank you!

I appreciate that someone is actually putting aside the emotional nonsense and reading what I'm saying

Like I said below, I think that it's CC processing companies that are the problem. They aren't all banks. They make money while your money sits in limbo. They're also the ones who make the cc fees from the merchant.

[whatever4]

49. Absolutely. He's just not worried about it

Because it's not his problem, and he doesn't percieve it as being a problem for very many other people.

$100 sure. NO problem, I can pick that up off the street, sure, aluminum cans and paper recycling. gods...

[Bluerthanblue]

103. I understand your anger and frustration-

but your taking it out on the wrong person- ET is not telling you what is happening is good- They are pointing out ways to deal with it, and trying to make sense of why the practice is being instituted at all in the first place-
Its not wrong to be pissed- it's not wrong to be frustrated- it IS wrong to spew that anger on folks who are not 'against' you, but beside you, and trying to help. Would it be better that everyone just said "oh yeah all gas stations suck!"
"Fuck them"
"Losers!"-

What does that do to make anything better????

If you just want to wallow in the muck- go for it- I've been there, but after awhile life becomes meaningless- Saying life isn't fair is stating fact- ranting about the unfairness is necessiary- trying to rectify the unfairness is ideal, but learning how to live WITH the unfairness in the mean-time is crucial.

I believe that is all ET was trying to do- and you bit their head off- we're on the same team- lets not eat our own.

[Bluerthanblue]

101. well, I AM a

'little' 'gal' ... and I've NEVER encountered a gas station that would not allow you to pay cash. Many stations in the higher crime areas I've been in make you slide your money into a 'bank style' drawer, to the attendent who lives in a glass booth- and you have to pre-pay, and if you can't fit the whole payment into your tank, and want to fill it up you go back and get your change.

But in my over 25 years of driving, I've NEVER encountered a "NO CASH" station. I don't like the 'credit-card' necessity either- but if you USE them right- (pay off the entire balance each month, and don't get one with an annual fee) they can make life a bit easier. I had to, when I got stuck and despite the fact that I had cash money to rent a car, no previous criminal history- a squeeky clean liscence, and ample auto insurance, I couldn't even 'rent a wreck'- when my car broke down 300 miles from home with three kids, (one a baby) and no one to come get us in the middle of february- Decided I'd never let that happen again!

Most credit card co.'s will give you an opportunity to establish a credit history- my card had a 300. limit- paying it off immediately, and never being late caused them to raise it very quickly- to an amount I'll never use.

It DOES take self-control. But they are a necessiary evil in this world- just as many things are.

[DJ MEW]

71. Every Pump around where I live

just says, "Select pay inside or slide card in to reader" You can't select debit or credit. If you do your other idea of going in and prepaying and using your debit card and entering your pin then you have the issue of your bank charge for using your debit card at a POS. Most banks have a conviency charge for use of a debit card, I think my banks fee is 25 cents per transaction but that is money that you don't get back ever.

And using cash isn't as simple as it sounds. With gas in my area at 2.69 a gallon filling a tank from empty costs me 30 dollars, I drive a Neon and the tank is only 11.5 gallons about. My Sister drives a Chevy truck and filling that costs 60 to fill. Who carries money like that around with them all the time.

[ET Awful]

75. If it doesn't have you enter your PIN, it's running it as a credit

transaction (just an FYI). You don't get charged the POS fee unless it's run as a debit card and you enter your PIN (if you don't enter your PIN it's run as a credit, the merchant pays a fee, usually around 2%).

As to paying with cash (you really get it for $2.69 a gallon, luck you), people have quickly forgotten the times before pay at the pump. It's a pain in the ass, but it seems to me that once again, that's a matter of personal choice. Just as something to think about . . . isn't it cheaper to get money out of your own bank's ATM and pay cash at the station? I realize it's inconvenient, but isn't it cheaper that way? You avoid all fees. To do this, I have to drive a mile or so out of my way to go to my bank, then a mile back to get to a place where gas is under closer to $2.85 or so (it's more than $3.00 close to the bank), but it works out in the long run.

[whatever4]

7. This is such a racket - 100 dollar pre-authorization charge on my account.

This was brought up the other day, and someone on here said, basically, so what. Pre-authorizations in restaurants and what not. That they've been doing this for years. But, no, they haven't. Not like this. Not by a long shot; they NEVER had such free-wheeling access to our accounts, over something so essential as buying gas. One has a choice in going to a restaurant. One typically does NOT have a choice to buy or not buy fuel. It IS a standard in this country, and now it HAS been manipulated by big business.

It used to be $1 pre-authorization for gas, and now it's $100?? For gas, that is what is required of us, that we carry over $100 in our account, to buy gas???

Adding to the difficulty, some places won't let you pay cash, because having large amounts of cash makes them a more attractive target to rob. Cash is NOT legal for all debts, apparently, if the business chooses.

So, one has no choice, but to use a credit/debit card, and incur $100 for days??

Sure, and that isn't going to make the banks mega bucks in overdraft fees.

It's a racket. Can't pay cash? Have to have $100 dollars available in an account, in order to purchase any amount of gas?

It's racket.

And even folks on here will say it's no big deal. Because THEY have no problem keeping over $100 (the hundred dollars plus however much the gas purchase is, what, $30 or $40, right?) in their account.

Because THAT is the nation we live in. Where we feel free to spit on the needs of the less well off. Always hoping, just crossing our little fingers, that WE won't ever be so hard off, and hoping if WE ever are that someone will care.

Judging from the reactions this issue is likely to receive, because I've seen it before...no, no one will care. If you don't care now, realize fully that NO ONE will care about you if YOU don't have over $100 in your account. Just keep crossing those little fingers while you come up with excuses about why anyone wouldn't have an extra $100 in an account, about how using cash isn't "necessary" and about how the gas stations "need" this protection.

Sure. Business has never been so hot. But they need "protection" from the occasional thief. Sure, they're practically being run out of business, gas stations are so empty, sure...

How many people are going to try to justify this practice? I have no idea. Probably just as many as justified the Iraq war. It has the same "us" and "them" overtones. Elite. Self satisfied. WE have credit cards and WE aren't worried, so we'll let them walk over the less fortunate. Figuring WE won't ever be in that crowd.

All the while ignoring the fact that BushCo is working feverishly to put us ALL in that less fortunate, needy, helpless crowd. Just crossing our little fingers, knowing we're "better".

Because we have more money in our accounts. Sure.

[sendero]

8. This problem...

... could be easily solved if they wanted to. Pre-auths for things like gas or meals should expire in a short period of time, say 3 hours max, automatically.

If there is no actual purchase within that time, the auth is obviously not needed.

This is one reason I'll never convert my credit cards to debit - the potential for problems seems a lot higher.

[Carni]

13. Can someone fill me in on the pre auth for meals situation???

We rarely use a credit card and only use a debit card at an ATM to get cash so I am pretty out of the loop on this...

Do you mean to tell me restaurants are putting pre-authorization charges on your card for meals?

How the hell do they justify that OR the gas pre-auth charges?

It was my understanding that debit card purchases come directly out of your account, so if the money isn't there you can't buy.

What is up with this BS of charging extra for a week?

And how can they do that in a restaurant?

That would be like asking someone paying cash to order and pay before they prepare the food! What the hell? Can someone fill me in?

I was very shocked to find out about four years ago that hotels pulled this but they at least had the pretense of you could incur charges that they weren't aware of (stealing pillows raiding the
mini-bar or whatever) but there is zero justification for this at gas stations or restaurants unless I am missing something here?

[ET Awful]

16. I couldn't say for sure with restaurants, unless it's to allow for

gratuity since someone could write some extravagant amount for it and then get it declined after the fact . . . but that wouldn't really make sense.

As I said above, with gas stations it's understandable. Once the card is approved to turn on the pump, the pump doesn't know how much you have in your account, even if you only have $10 in your account, the pump doesn't know that so could theoretically let you pump $100 worth of gas. Then the station gets stiffed for the balance. They do it to secure the maximum amount of gas they think a person will buy. As prices go up so does the amount of the hold.

[Carni]

21. OK I hadn't thought of that--these are at the pump authorizations then

That aspect didn't occur to me! Thanks for the explanation.

I guess maybe a way around this would be to go inside and pay up front --stating put thirty bucks on pump whatever, and then just paying beforehand.

It's still inexcusable that the charges don't drop off more quickly!

[ET Awful]

27. Exactly.

I agree that the length of time is inexcusable, but is avoidable.

[Carni]

30. They've got you coming or going

I usually get cash out of the ATM at my gas station and then pay cash to get my gas--so I pay 2 bucks for that.

It doesn't seem to matter what you do anymore because they'll nab you for some type of a fee regardless!

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ET Awful]

37. Bullshit, complete and utter bullshit.

You don't know jack shit about me. I live paycheck to paycheck like most people here. I normally have a balance of far less than $105 in my account. BUT, I know how to avoid the fucking charges because I make the effort to learn instead of whining.

Your holier-than-thou bullshit is getting tiring and old.

[Occulus]

45. What's holier-than-thou is a business claiming more access

than they deserve.

What's holier-than-thou is telling people it's their own fault that they don't know how much each and every business they patronize overcharges.

What's holier-than-thou is expecting people who routinely hold less in their accounts- for whatever reason- to be okay with a business (not even a person!) to gain access to monies that are not theirs, cash they have no right to at all.

What's holier-than-thou is expecting us all to actually be okay with not being able to spend the money we earned because some other business appropriated our accounts five, ten, twenty, or however many times the actual purchase price itself was.

This practice could, for example, keep someone from being able to pay for a prescription drug. It could keep them from being able to pay for, well, literally anything.

You are flat out, unequivocally wrong in your support of this practice. It's about as anti-progressive a practice as things can get. You really ought to be ashamed, honestly, because what this amounts to is theft to prevent theft.

[ET Awful]

51. Yet again, complete and utter bullshit.

First, they don't have access to the money. (You do know how that works right?). They have no access to the cash. They don't gain from it, they don't gain interest on it, the only thing they have is insurance that the full amount of your purchase is covered.

I should be ashamed? BULLSHIT.

I should be ashamed for educating myself on how the system works? Yup, education is certainly something to be ashamed of . . . oh wait, no it isn't.

If you want to get outraged, get outraged at the thieves that stole gas and caused stations to start putting holds in the first place, then get outraged at the oil companies who are jacking up the prices.

Here's a clue for you, the majority of gas station operators are SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS who are NOT making large profits, they have to take steps to protect themselves from theft when they are laying out more and more for their inventory and making less and less off of it.

Do you know anything about the business at all? Did you know that many service stations actually charge less for gas than they are billed by the oil companies and make up the difference with snacks and drinks inside?

Have you taken one second to consider them? Nope, you haven't. You've made the erroneous assumption that since a gas station has a Mobil sign out front, they are owned and operated by Mobil. They aren't, they're a franchise, owned by a person that is not making a great deal of money.

[Occulus]

64. I give up.

You're obviously going to insist on siding with business rather than the little guy giving them business. It's really, really shocking to see this happen here, of all places.

From the beginning, my point has been that no business, of any kind, should be able to appropriate, gain access to, freeze, or in ANY other way affect the money in my bank account above and beyond what they are owed.

My secondary point has been to lambast you for supporting such an utterly reprehensible practice. No, I don't CARE "how it works" regarding ownership of gas stations or any other diversion from the main point. None of it justifies any sort of hold on my account.

Period.

By claiming otherwise, you're effectively saying their concerns about getting paid are more important that my ability to access all of the money in my account at any time I need to do so. YOU ARE PUTTING BUSINESS OVER PUBLIC, and I'm calling you on it because no business ought to have the right to do what you're defending.

None. Zip. Zilch. IT's corporate personhood run amok, as usual.

But I suppose you'd defend THAT, too.

[ET Awful]

66. LOL . . . corporate personhood? Most gas stations aren't corporate

they're owned by individuals who don't make a whole lot more than any other middle-income American.

Basically the position you're taking is that "I don't give a shit if the small business owner that runs the station gets fucked by 10 people a day stealing tankfulls of gas as long as I don't have to walk inside the store to pay."

You are showing as much disdain for the small business owner running that station as you claim I am for the customer.

I'm not putting business over public. I'm trying to EDUCATE THE PUBLIC. Apparently the public doesn't want to be educated.

[Occulus]

72. And the one thing you are NOT saying is

that this practice should be outlawed.

You're trying to educate the public about policies that negatively affect them, without admitting to how wrong those policies are.

I'm only say it's wrong, it's ALWAYS wrong, and it should not be tolerated.

Someday, somewhere, policies like this will be the starting point of a chain of events leading to someone being unable to buy something that is immediately necessary to prevent injury, save a life, or some other like situation.

Are you going to then say, "these policies are wrong," or are you going to say, "tough luck; you should have know about the policy"?

I want this practice banned to prevent situations I can't think of yet because there's no precedent. Mark my words, though- something like that will happen eventually if these policies are allowed to continue.

[ET Awful]

78. So . . . you think that the small business owner running your local

service station should have no means of preventing theft by people pumping more gas than their bank account can actually cover?

If you can find another way to reduce or eliminate theft, so be it. BUT, I'm actually trying to be fair to both sides, you are not.

I understand why the retailer must do such holds. I also understand ways to avoid being hit by such holds and understand how inconvenient they can be.

I believe the retailer has a right to defend himself (or herself) against theft. I believe the customer has the right to defend himself or herself against said holds and fees.

I've listed several ways that both the retailer and the customer can be safe and avoid the various pitfalls and hazards. You have merely attacked me for saying it.

The only other practical solution is to have you (a) enter the exact amount you wish to purchase at the pump before the charge is run; (b) eliminate pay at the pump, have you pre-pay all purchases and run the charge at that time; or (c) make all stations full service where the merchant pumps the gas and you pay for the exact amount following the pumping.

The merchant has as much right to defend themselves against potential theft as you do to be irate about the hold.

[sendero]

18. Actually...

.... unless they get your card they can't very well do a pre-auth.

My guess is that they only do that in cases where you are running a big long-term tab (drinking).

[ET Awful]

19. Ahhh, the tab makes sense :)

I never run a tab, that's why I didn't think of it. . . hell, I don't even really drink that often anymore

[Carni]

22. Ok bar tab

I also hadn't thought of that thanks...(duh on my part)

Maybe I should make myself some coffee because I am not to on the ball this morning!

[whatever4]

20. Fact is, it's an artificially created problem

Artificially created for us. There are many smarter ways this could have been managed, the issue of theft at gas stations, supposedly why this hold is used on credit card purchases. But this rises to the level of fraud, because many consumers will have no idea it's being done, whether they have any problems with their accounts or not. If they DO notice it, it will be when it bites them.

It's easy to see it hurts the consumer FAR more than the occasional theft hurts gas stations and banks. How much does a tank full of gas cost them, as opposed to vast number of legal purchases...do we really believe on here that gas stations aren't doing well, with the rise in gas prices, and the mega business it's bringing in?? One or two tanks here and there, I don't belive it costs them enough to warrent anythign CLOSE to a $100 hold on every gas purchase. It's insane. It's draconian.

It was a forgone conclusion that this practice would have a more harmful effect on consumers, many of whom will be taken by surprise by this change, than the added risk of theft . One by one, people will be slammed. There will be NOTHING they can do.

And that is what this is all about. There will be nothing "they" can do.

While the banks make bank.

A problem? More like an artfully illogical solution, typical of the BushCo agenda.

Because who does it hurt? Again? Always? The little guy.

[sendero]

24. I agree..

... and there is nothing new here.

All one can do is try to not use cards any more than you need to. I use mine for convenience, but I'm reaching the point to where I think I will use them for gas and mail-order purchases only.

But I did lose $500 cash a couple months ago and so carrying cash has it's own problems

[Carni]

26. Now add to this the fact that the gas station sees no money for 48 hours

And they pay a percentage to the bank that does their merchant processing for the customer's purchase--

The banks IMO are the ones pushing this...the merchant service's pigs get all the interest on the money they have attached for days-- plus their percentage cut and then the customer's bank gets to soak the consumer with over draft charges.

This is all banking industry driven IMO--banks are totally out of control under this bush regime.

There no longer seems to be any oversight.

[Chewy_dKos]

40. Gas Stations...

...do not make out like bandits on higher fuel prices. If anything it hurts them. They actually make very little off of their gas. Its the stuff in the convenience store that they make their money off of. With high gas prices, there is less discretionary spending left to go into the store and buy a drink or some chips, and stuff like that.

[DJ MEW]

61. I want to see the data from a tax audit of a gas station franchise chain

I hear people say that a lot. That the gas station isn't making big profits from the price spikes. But until I see proof of it I am not bitting.

I have a distant relation, I think she is my fathers cousin, and her husband and her own a few gas stations down in the Peoria IL area and every time that I have ever seen them they are driving a newer looking Jaguar or some other high end foreign luxury car.

But you are telling me that the stations make very little profit on their gasoline sales.

[ET Awful]

67. In many cases, gas stations sell the gas for less than what they pay

for it. If not less (which is technically illegal by federal law), then almost exactly what they pay.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/20025...

Is a good insight into who gets the money.

On edit: An even better breakdown:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

[Chewy_dKos]

73. I don't know about other states.....

but Wisconsin has a minimum 4 cent markup on gas, to try to stop the Wal-Marts of the gas station world from undercutting mom and pop and putting them out of business. Almost everyone here sits right on that line....4 cents. Big damn profit huh???

[ET Awful]

80. Especially when you consider that if the customer pays with a credit card

or debit card (anything with a Visa or MC logo), 2-3% of the total purchase goes to the credit card company and reduces that profit even more.

[Silverhair]

82. Mom & Pop gas stations?

Haven't seen one of those in decades. Like Mom & Pop grocery stores, they have gone.

[ET Awful]

83. Not really, I pass 3 or 4 of them on my way to work. Hell, one of them

up until Katrina was the cheapest place for miles to buy gas (averaged .10 cheaper a gallon than the Sunoco and Mobil stations up the road), but now they're at least $.05 higher than anyone else.

But, just because a station says Mobil or Exxon out front doesn't mean the oil company owns the station, it simply means that's the brand of gas they sell. Many of those are mom & pop operations.

[Silverhair]

90. OK. NT

[ET Awful]

93. I just wish there were more of them :) The service is so much better

I like the old gritty ones where it's ALL full service and the guy who comes out to pump your gas is the same guy that changes your oil and fixes your flat tire .

You don't see many of those in any urban area, but they're still to be found in small towns and such.

[Silverhair]

96. I haven't had my gas pumped in over 35 years.

Windshield? I am happy if they have a squeege in a water bucket.

[ET Awful]

97. Hehehe, the one I was talking about earlier (that used to be cheaper

but now is a few cents more) is completely old-school, they pump your gas, wash your windows, if you ask they'll check the oil and tire pressure .

They have high school kids doing the work during the summer and afternoons. I may start spending the extra few cents just to go back there because it's a cool little place that deserves the business

[Silverhair]

100. Yes, I would too. I like the part about high school help.

A few cents a gallon isn't that much, and you do get service for it.

Hey, those are cute cats. I am a cat lover. I have lots of cat stories.

[Bluerthanblue]

102. key in you illustration

is the word "few" -
If your distant relative is wealthy enough to own a 'few' stations- even on paper- then they aren't the 'typical' local service station, convience store owner-

Also, don't forget many people 'own' alot of 'things' that will disappear with the repo man after dark- and the 'small chain' stores that lie vacant in many areas-

The REAL DEAL 'little mom and pop' enterprise, is an endangered species in this corporate world- and I for one, HATE that- because when you run out all the 'little guys'- the 'big guys' will have us ALL by the ovaries- and squeeze us dry-

I DO know a real life 'little guy' and he isn't getting rich, and IS working his poor ass off.

[Occulus]

28. "some places won't let you pay cash"

My roommate's response to that practice in particular was most amusing. One night he went to a gas station which, after he pumped his gas, informed him they could not accept his $100 bill.

No signage claiming such was posted, either at the pump or on the door to the station.

My roommate requested the clerk in the station call the state police. She did so. He explained to the reporting officer that the station would not accept his legal tender and, if they refused in the officer's presence, he would be leaving without paying.

The officer's response? "Well. Have a good night, then."

My roommate left without paying for his gas, and the officer allowed it. Why? Because "This note is legal tender for ALL DEBTS, public and private."

Refusal to accept cash payment in full, unless otherwise noted to the purchaser prior to the purchase (by signage or verbal policy notification) apparently frees the consumer from paying AT ALL. Why? Because payment for services rendered was offered and subsequently refused.

If they refuse to take your money for what you want to buy, it's free.

[whatever4]

42. Nice one

See ET?? It really happens. There really are gas stations like that. REAL people, not a theory about the inner city, maybe but we've never seen it.

This one wasn't even legal, and even still, if not for the stubbornness of that individual, they'd have gotten away with it. Apparently generally do get away with it; forcing people to use credit, or submit their bank account to the business atm.

Racket. One that hurts real people.

But yo ET, if you have any valium to spare, please share. I think better living through chemistry has been mandated by BushCo too.

[ET Awful]

44. Actually, the station didn't say they wouldn't accept cash, they said

they wouldn't accept a $100 bill, this is not unusual at all (though it's normally posted). Most stations won't accept anything larger than a $20 after dark.

You really have NO CLUE how things work do you?

Hell, most gas stations (and drive-thru fast food joints for that matter) have signs saying "Nothing larger than a $20".

[Occulus]

54. Bullshit. Try again.

"Actually, the station didn't say they wouldn't accept cash, they said they wouldn't accept a $100 bill"

Who the hell do you think you're trying to kid? A $100 BILL ***IS*** CASH!!!!!

Not only that, but I argue even those policies are illegal on their face. "All debts" means "all debts", NOT "all debts an attendant can make change for".

Or does "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" mean something different to you than it does to the rest of us? Because that's not a hard phrase to figure out the meaning of.

[ET Awful]

57. So tell me, did the station say they wouldn't accept smaller bills?

No, they did not.

I agree that they should have accepted the $100 bill since they didn't have it posted.

They did NOT say they don't accept cash, quit trying to expand what they said into something entirely different.

I've encountered hundreds of businesses that couldn't accept $100 bills.

Many because they couldn't change it. If they just opened and you tried to pay with $100 bill and they only had $50 in the register, say your friend bought $20 worth of gas . . . how are they going to change the bill?

Quick, give me an answer, don't hurl your invectives and insults.

Saying they can't break $100 is way different than "we don't accept cash."

[Occulus]

77. Okay, I'll bite

In the several years I worked behind the counter in a gas station we had enough in the drawer to cover such as what you're talking about at ALL times. The solution is to ensure you have at least $100 *in bills*, and another $50 in change in the drawer. That's really not that much change, either; two rolls of quarters, two rolls of dimes, two or three of nickles, and several rolls of pennies.

We did not EVER refuse to accept any form of US currency because 1) it's wrong and 2) we were smart enough to ensure the ability to make change under any circumstances.

We always had a manager present at peak volume period to be able to add money to the drawer as needed. But, this is not about being able to make change; this is about being able to put a hold on someone's account, for a period even extending to AFTER the purchase has been paid for.

It should be illegal. By the way, this is a new practice; none of the stations I worked for back in the early and mid '90s ever did this.

[ET Awful]

79. Really? The first time I remember seeing a station that posted they

wouldn't accept anything larger than a $20 was in Phoenix, AZ around 1989 or so. For them it was because of theft (I asked the guy).

Here's an interesting article on the subject (yeah, it's a blog, but has some good info) http://tweezersedge.com/archives/2003/08/000077.html

As to it being "legal tender" from the US Treasury site:

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-ten...

" The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 102. This is now found in section 392 of Title 31 of the United States Code. The law says that: "All coins and currencies of the United States, regardless of when coined or issued, shall be legal-tender for all debts, public and private, public charges, taxes, duties and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy."

[Clark2008]

56. I had a gas station refuse to take a traveler's check

Which is the same as cash, except its got MORE protection in that my signature and the bank cashier's signature is on it and can be easily checked against my driver's license.

Even with the water markings and the inside-the-paper symbols, they wouldn't take it.

Shouldn't they be training their cashier's to look for these things instead of just assuming ALL cashier's checks are bogus? Hell, it's not rocket science and if you've hired someone to handle money, surely you trust that they're smart enough to hold something to the light and check for a water mark.

But, yes, there are gas stations who refuse cash. Didn't you read about the motorist stranded leaving Galveston who couldn't get gas because they didn't have debit or credit cards (cash only). CNN crews had to bail them out and put $50 on their personal cards to get gas for these people who didn't have plastic.

[ET Awful]

60. Ah, now you're trying to bring emergency circumstances into it.

Now the cashier's check is a different story, that's a matter of training and should have been accepted, but it's NOT cash. We are discussing cash.

Leaving during a national emergency is slightly different than stopping for gas on your way to work. For you to fairly say that station doesn't accept cash, you must prove that they don't accept cash in the normal course of business, which obviously isn't the case here. That is completely fucked up, and I disagree with the station operator in that instance, but I haven't seen anything indicating it's their normal practice. That was probably a terrified owner thinking any cash he accepted would get stolen or lost in the oncoming storm. But it is NOT the normal course of business and isn't a valid example for the discussion.

[Clark2008]

70. But cash should always be accepted

Cash doesn't say "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private EXCEPT IN EMERGENCIES."

I understand a company policy limiting the cash to smaller bills for protection, but cash, as in those folks stranded on the highway wanting to pay for $50 in gas with two $20s and a $10 (or even a $50)should have been accepted, PARTICULARLY in an emergency.

And a traveler's check IS cash - it's cash with the added bonus of being protected by the banking institution. It's still legal tender. Heck, electronic funding is legal tender, for that matter.

[ET Awful]

74. A traveller's check isn't cash, it's a traveller's check.

I've encountered stores that won't accept them before, usually because of undertrained clerks or because they've been ripped off with fake ones before. It's a pain in the ass, but no law says they have to accept it.

As to the emergency situation, I agree with you, but it is NOT an example that is pertinent to the discussion of whether or not gas stations accept cash, nobody mentioned extenuating circumstances above, and to bring it into the discussion now is not really germaine to the argument.

I believe that the station normally accepted cash, but (as heinous as it may be) changed their policy as a response to the crises/evacuation. Without knowing what their normal policy is, it's not really a valid example though.

[whatever4]

58. No clue? As a consumer? Right.

Fact is, I'm average, and whatever you are, YOU don't care about the many, many people this hurts, or the fact they had no idea they were blindly pumping into a check-bounding, credit wracking problem.

Guess none of us have a clue about "how things work"

Guess we'll all pay for it too, us "no clue" folks, while the banks make profit from our vast stupidity.

And again, still, not your problem.

What you believe, basically, is the banks have the right to rip off the general public until the public "wises up".

This is a dead argument. You truly don't care about this issue. You said from the start, you just aren't worried about it. This has devolved into an ego thing, and I won't waste the time.

[movie_girl99]

14. do you have a link to the info

where did you hear it? I'd like to read up on it if possible.

[DJ MEW]

47. I do have a link to it

but that link is my online banking account management page, besides that and the short talk I had with a representative from my bank when I called to ask about the charge I have nothing else.

But from what the woman I talked to on the phone said there should be something about it since she had heard that they might start doing that.

I also just did a google search to see what I could find so here you go.

http://www.bankersonline.com/operations/gurus_op0702c.h...
http://www.bankersonline.com/operations/gurus_op030402d...

And here is one that is specific to pay pal credit/debit cards

[Clark2008]

50. Yeah, me too.

I want to send it to my fiance. He uses his debit card a lot at the pumps. I usually have to purchase other things inside and go there to pay.

[dogday]

53. Crap we are talking about fuel for our car

not a loan. This just does not seem constitutional at all...

[whatever4]

63. But listen to the shills

And they'll tell you it's not a problem in the same paragraph they're describing different methods to get around it.

'Cause it's not a problem. And here's what to do about the non-problem...

Shills on this board

[whatever4]

65. Yo I'm done with this thread. It's shillish

I'm leaving it to the rest of you worthy souls, to deal with the shill/s on this one. I gotta leave it go, because I'm going to be cussing soon, and that's not good technique.

[Carni]

69. I have certainly not said it's not a problem

I think it's total bullshit but I blame the banks and their typical unscrupulous behavior.

[ET Awful]

85. I really don't think it's the banks either. It's the cc processing

companies (not always banks) who process the charges, etc. (some take 72 hours to process a charge, and 96 hours to process a refund). The processing companies earn interest because they act a bit like an escrow for the money during the time it's "in limbo." They are also the ones who make that 2-4% (or more) off the merchants on the transactions.

Yes, the merchant decides on how much of a hold they want, but the cc processing company decides on how long that hold takes to release and how quickly the real charge is processed to withdraw your money from your account and deposit it to the merchant.

Yeah, bankers are bastards, but you have to look at the cc processing companies who are even more insidious .

[Carni]

92. Agreed I meant the CC processors when I said banks

Ours is owned by some sort of bank (although they seem to change every six months) I have nothing but bad things to say about the CC processors!

[ET Awful]

94. Yup, nasty bastards they are :)

[DJ MEW]

99. Wasn't there a law recently about processing a charge

I seem to remember hearing about a law that Bush Co pushed through that made it so that all personal checks are forced to clear within 24 hours. I remember it because they were talking about people that float checks.

So if we are held to this 24 hour check processing requirement why aren't these businesses.

Edit

Here is the link to what I am talking about called Check 21

http://www.consumersunion.org/finance/ckclear1002.htm

[ET Awful]

104. First, I have to clear up one little thing . . .

Checks aren't forced to clear within 24 hours. What Check 21 does is allow an electronic copy of your check to represent the real thing, thus a business can transmit an electronic version of your check to your bank and get funds back immediately. It's not necessarily a 24 hours thing, it's an electronic banking thing.

Second, I agree completely that 24 hours is more than sufficient to process charges via a card of any kind, especially with high speed communications the way they are today. Unfortunately, with banks and cc companies and their high-paid lobbyists, it's not likely to happen.

[DJ MEW]

76. I am emailing the local TV news groups

Both of the two main public broadcast news groups have investigative journalism teams and I think this might be an interesting story that people need to know about.

[Mr_Spock]

81. I haven't seen the pre-auth charge yet - I assume I will someday

[MadHound]

87. Fuck 'em then, use cash or checks

It is a better idea for people to go to a cash only system anyway. You starve the CC beast, save yourself money and headaches, and it helps your budgeting to boot.

I've been on a cash only basis all of my life, and have never experienced any difficulties. While a business can mandate that they won't take bills over a certain amount, it is mandated by law that they have to except cash as payment. If they don't, then you either have free gas or one hell of a lawsuit to file.

[ET Awful]

89. Thank you.

I'll post again what I posted above from the US Treasury:

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-ten...

"This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy."

They have to accept cash, they do NOT have to accept all denominations of bills.

[dogday]

105. When people were scattering to find gas in Houston

when Rita was approaching, all that there was were cc paying pumps, which meant people with cash could not get gas in a critical situation. If that is not duress to pressure a person to get a card, I don't know what is, an investigation needs to take place. Some people were cool and took another person's cash and let them fill up on their card, but not all.

[MadHound]

106. Gee, one situation in over a decade is hardly grounds

To base a whole position on. And I guarantee you, a decade ago, before CC pumps were common place, all gas during a hurrican evacuation was paid for with cash.

It is the publics stupidity and penchant for using CCs that has brought us to the point where plastic is being catered to. If we would all stop using that plastic, it would force companies to cater to cash instead.

Still and all though, even in an emergency, it is better to use cash. When the electricity goes down, when all of those card readers don't work, that little piece of plastic is worthless.

And the more our society uses plastic, the more control is exerted on the American public by the CC companies. They extort money from you, limit your purchasing power, track where you go and what you buy. Every time you swipe that card, you sacrifice a piece of yourself to the CC corporation.

And if I was in the great escape from Houston and a service station refused my cash, either I would get free gas on the spot, or I would be owning that station after the lawsuit. Despite this vast movement towards a cashless society, the law still reads that cash is to be accepted everywhere, by everyone, all of the time, for all debts public and private. No exceptions.

[dogday]

107. Yes You would think that would you not?

Those poor people who wanted out of Houston were denied their civil rights, no doubt.....

[Bluerthanblue]

95. Fact- from actual gas station owner-

I was asked to post this here from another thread- My friend owns and operates a gas station/convience store in our small town in northern new england.
He has never had a policy of 'pay before you pump' and still doesn't, but I hope he changes that, as much as I would dislike the need to- He has to pump 1,000 gals. of gas to make up for ONE 'drive off'- that just allows him to 'break even' on what he's lost. (averaging 9-11 gallons per drive off). The guy is a kind, gentle, friendly family man who came here from India, and is simply trying to make a life for himself and his family.- He works 7days a week, 16hrs a day. Running a gas station is the LAST thing I'd like to do- the grief, worry, and harassment he gets is NOT worth the effort- I admire him for hanging in there, and NEED him to stay in business-
If you are unhappy with the 'big corporations' then fight them- the average station owner is far from a 'fat-cat' rolling in the dough.

[derby378]

98. RaceTrac pre-auth: $50 on your card

Solution: Pay with cash at the gas station, and leave the credit cards for other purchases.