Will you finally admit there was a coup d'état in the United States?

[Q]

coup:

A brilliantly executed stratagem; a triumph.

A coup d'état.

A sudden appropriation of leadership or power; a takeover: a boardroom coup.

A sudden, decisive exercise of power whereby the existing government is subverted without the consent of the people.

------------

- We just can't seem to admit it. It couldn't happen in the land of the free and the brave. But what further proof do we need that democracy was subverted by the Bushies and the Supreme Court in order to install a puppet president* to do the bidding of the neoconservatives and their corporations?

- What further proof do you need before you realize that our once-free press has become an instrument of those who now use it to hide the truth and solidify their power base?

- What will it take for you to finally realize that the US House and Senate have been subjugated and made the servant and rubber stamp of the Bush* government?

- What else has to be said and done before Americans accept that they no longer live in a free country and that their government now serves itself instead of them?

- Democrats MUST begin and continue a dialogue about what really happened to America. The 2000 election. 9-11. Shadow government. Homeland security. Patriot Act(s). Government secrecy. Election rigging. Profiteering. Breaking of treaties and trusts. Character assassination of opponents and the suppression of dissent. Preemptive strikes and illegal invasions. PNAC. The murder of thousands of innocents for ever-changing reasons.

- The ONLY way to win back our government is to recognize that the neoconservatives are playing by a different set of rules while their opposition still clings to concepts like fair play and free and fair elections.This is how they plan to stay in power: They will lie, cheat and steal...and encourage us to play by the very rules they gave up on long ago. While we rush to the polls to vote...they're busy making sure those votes don't count. While we cheer on the real public servants and truth-tellers...they're hard at work making sure these voices are never heard.

- What does this mean in terms of the 2004 election? It means that those who have taken power by deceit will keep it by deceit. The Bushies will not submit to the law of the land and have no intention of relinquishing their ill-gotten power to the will of the people in the next national election.

- There was a coup d'état in the United States of America. Admit it so that we can go on to the next step and return our government to the people.

[judy]

1. I'm with you, Q!

I think this is true, and they have taken advantage of the fact that people are in denial, and do not want to talk about it openly.

This is why I think that Smirk will be reselected in 2004. There is no way they will let go for something as trivial as the will of the people.

[Abe Linkman]

2. No doubt about it.

Very well done. Right on the money, too.

[frank frankly]

3. yes and yes

I'm well past admiting it! In my little corner of the universe here, I'm doing everything I can to stop it.

Very good summary and explanation.

[einsteins stein]

4. Before, we fought with our vote

now that is being taken from us.

We still have the Internet, and truth is the ultimate weapon, but we are limited by the means to get the truth out to those who have no access to information.

We had the free press, but that has also been corrupted, or appropriated.

With what weapons will we reclaim our country, Q?

DU?

[Nay]

16. Unfortunately, propaganda is the ultimate weapon, not truth.

A lie can travel around the world while truth is still pulling its pants on.

[einsteins stein]

17. Hmm, is that the truth, or just more propaganda?

I really hate questions like that...

[BeFree]

5. When??

About 2 years ago. We've been coup d'ed under for years and years now and 2000 was just the latest version.

When will the sheeple lift their snouts from their constant grazing and see that the shepherds are, in reality, Wolves? That's the question that needs an answer, eh?

[MuseRider]

6. Yes, Q

you are exactly right on all charges. What do you propose for the next step because so far what we have been trying is not working very well.

[cosmicdot]

7. I've been convinced ... it's on-going ...

... has been for a number of decades ...

I think "American Pie" ... the music ... really died on December 12, 2000.

[Junkdrawer]

8. A small, ruthless (but well funded) minority has taken over the country...

What we saw last week was the beginnings of the counter-coup. And it is more than CIA vs. the White House. Highly placed insiders in all branches of the administration are fighting the Rove/NeoCon takeover.

Rove is starting to fight back hard. He wants to know who told Dana Priest that he called six reporters before he called Novak. So he set up a sting: he asked Ashcroft in Justice to set up a deadline for all possible evidence in the Plame leak matter, THEN he had all the evidence sent to the WH council to be “reviewed”. And he used the media fascination with CA Recall to hide the outrage. Here’s the AP story:

White House to screen leak material
Lawyers may spend 2 weeks examining responses to probe

ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON, Oct. 7 — White House lawyers will spend up to two weeks screening responses turned in by roughly 2,000 staff members asked what they know, if anything, about the unauthorized disclosure of an undercover CIA officer’s identity.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/973047.asp?0cv=CB10

I fully expect that one of the coup members will die in ambiguous circumstances so as to deliver a warning. Many here will say it's Rove, "sensible" posters will call that tinfoil, but the warning will be delivered.

Moral: If you’re going to fight Rove, it HAS to be quick and decisive.

[YourDad]

65. what things would these kind of people do to us?

whenever something like this happens the innocent people always suffer first. it is not just a political enemies thing. hitler did not just go after his rivals, he went after defenseless jews. when bush and rove and that gang finally get the power they need what will happen to normal american citizens?

[FlemingsGhost]

9. Quite often, revolution/civil war follow a coup d'état.

How's that for a sobering thought?

I think it's fascinating that Americans ignore history, convinced we are immune to the natural cycle of economic/social change.

[JanMichael]

10. It can't happen here! We're the bestest, smartest most honorable,,,

...people on the face of the planet!</sarc>

[NaMeaHou]

11. I am certain of it

and, I am certain that it also occurred during the Reagan presidency, but old Ronny was tougher than they thought.

Come on. The brother of the assassin was going to have dinner with Neil and that's just a coincidence?

[JackRiddler]

75. Let's call it sloppy...

This is not definitive evidence (though my tendency is to assume a presidential shooting is almost always a political assassination by a group, not a crazy "lone gunman"). If Hinckley's bro and Neil knew John was about to shoot Reagan, why would they draw attention to it by scheduling a dinner? Unless they thought no one would know. So the first question is, who revealed that the dinner date had been set?

[dofus]

12. Whaddya mean finally admit?

I've been using the term coup ever since December 2001.

[einsteins stein]

13. Well, Q, You Don't Accept PMs, So I Have To Ask Publically...

Are you suggesting civil disobediance, or something stronger?

[Q]

24. Sorry...was talking with my daughter on the phone...

...and then began wondering what kind of world she will inherit.

Hmm. The next step?

- I hate to sound trite...but here goes: the truth will set us free. How so? We must shake ourselves free of this denial and fear. The 2000 election WAS stolen. There's a REASON why the Bushies are hiding the presidential papers, national energy documents and the facts surrounding 9-11 and the Iraqi invasion. There's a REASON they have to govern in secret.

- We can begin by accepting the truth about what has happened and simply refuse to 'move on' and 'get over it'. Support the independent media and those few public servants struggling to get the truth out in a nation absent a free press. Simply put: refuse to move on.

[Zhade]

69. More will need to be done.

We've been doing exactly what you suggest. And it's a good strategy.

It is not, however, the entire battle plan. Much more will happen, with or without us. This country is now caught in the slipstream of radical change.

There will be stronger actions. It's fooling ourselves to think otherwise.

[Astarho]

14. Which one?

The failed coup in '98 (the impeachment)

The coup of 2000 (the SCOTUS putting Dumbass in the White House)

Or the attempted coup in CA (so they can pull off the 2004 coup to keep Dumbass in the WH)

[Cocoa]

15. in theory, maybe

but in practice, Gore conceded, and Bush has been recognized around the world as the president, and has been governing as president for almost three years.

[einsteins stein]

18. That's more to Gore's credit than Bush's

Gore's concession is probably the only thing that stopped millions of angry voters from rioting in the streets.

[JackRiddler]

76. Why is this to Gore's credit?

Thanks heaps for folding, Al. You like what we have now better?!

[NaMeaHou]

20. Recognition does not exclude illegitimacy

This country has done it for many a dictator over the years.

Gore conceded, as he told it, because he didn't want any more devisiveness - best for the country. He was wrong, but what could he do besides start a revolution? The supreme court had stopped the recount.

No one knew how bad it would get.

[Cocoa]

33. but it makes it kind of pointless to dwell on

In the same way, I totally agreed with Bob Graham when he said Bush could be impeached. I think there's tons of grounds for it.

But I also agreed when Graham said it was academic, since the republicans control the House.

[in_cog_ni_to]

19. Yes.

Now, what are we going to do about it? Revolution anyone?

[Zhade]

70. It's going to happen.

I've been saying it for a couple of years now - we will see another civil war, possibly followed by a revolution if the true criminality of the neocabal is laid bare and their followers turn.

All I can say is: get your supplies ready, and keep your eyes sharp. It's going to be brutal.

[piece sine]

72. fer-git about it!

do think the consensus here at DU in any way, shape or form mirrors the real world. This is an interesting place to excercise ideas but it doesn't begin to reflect rank-and-file positions. Besides, if there was ever was a real coup, DU would cease to exist. No...it more likely folks like Q are thinking emotionally and not logically.

[Zhade]

113. Not my experience.

People I work with openly say "coup" when we're with people who know the truth.

Friends and family know it was a coup as well. Denying it doesn't make it go away. I'd love to be wrong - I WISH I was wrong - but sadly, I am not. There was a coup.

We have to deal with it now. And I'm here to tell you, I have heard the "R-word" spoken by many people - more than I thought would even be awake.

You and I here on DU are actually not too far off from "the real world" - when dealing with people who aren't deluded by the corporate media and beguiled by Britney Spears and Survivor.

[Nottingham]

21. I have always believed it!

This is obviously not a Democracy !

[Ed Lebrock]

46. This is obviously not a Democracy !

>>This is obviously not a Democracy !

Maybe you were being sarcastic, but the United States is most definitely not a Democracy...we are a Representative Republic.

[Padraig18]

22. ADMIT it?

FFS, I've maintained it since Novermber 2000!

[slackmaster]

23. The pendulum has swung too far but it's no coup d'état

Democrats MUST begin and continue a dialogue about what really happened to America.

Affirmative! It is the DUTY of the minority party to raise important questions and challenge authority at all times.

What does this mean in terms of the 2004 election?

It will make the choices more clear and stark than any ever seen by most voters. The system is working.

[Gringo]

25. The coup happened in Nov. 1963

And has continued since with a people too dispirited make a change. The hippies in the 60's thought they were revolutionaries, but most of them never put everything on the line the way the socialists, unionists, populists, and "wobblies" did a hundred years ago. They keep enough of us, JUST ENOUGH of us JUST WELL-FED enough that the millions who are starving and breaking back for a living will never have enough support to make a real change, whether through rebellion or at the ballot box. It's a brilliant system if you're in the power elite. But now I'm starting to sound like Chomsky on a bad day, so I'll just say: Yes - Dec 2000 was an illegal, bloodless coup d'etat. I'm still not sure whether 9-11 was the Reichstag, though...

[Unforgiven]

26. Not Just Dems

I've said this before in posts and I'll say it again. Not until the average idiot has been stripped of nearly everything he or she owns or cherishes, will they look around and BEGIN to even WONDER WTF happened. The average U.S.citizen or RepubliCON is incredibly ignorant,they're too lazy and stupid to think on they're own. The only semblance of intelligence in this country resides here in this place we call D.U.

[kodi]

27. dec 12 = stauffenberg

[Q]

32. It shouldn't have to be said...

...but the Democratic party has to stop pretending that it's just politics as usual or that the opposition isn't really trying to cheat us and circumvent our Constitution.

- We should EXPECT the opposition to lie and cheat and be prepared.

[MuseRider]

41. OK, Q,

It seems we need to find several Democratic Representatives who are willing to speak out (I am not talking about the candidates) and let them have it with mail and calls. Get a few of them flooded and either worried or encouraged. Then we move on to some others. I have no reps to write to, Repubs all and they act like I have spit on them when I try to talk to them. I simply can't think of anything we have not already done. If you can think outside the box better than I go for it. I am open to any ideas, ANYTHING. We need to tell the dems who have not stuck up against this cabal that we don't care who they have taken money from if they will stand up now and throw these guys out we will forgive them, relieve them of their need to stay status quo. We may need to contact the Republicans who are honest to goodness real conservatives and let them know what is going to happen if they don't stand up to Bush*. I don't know, I am tired and not thinking too clearly but I am open to all suggestions.

[quaker bill]

28. Not exactly a coup

The military was not involved, but it has had the same effect.

The sales pitch to "elect" Bush* had as much validity as the sales pitch for the Iraq war. Even the most of the people who voted for him did not get what they thought they were voting for.

It has been a long time since the last time the government had an interest in which books you checked out of the library.

What's all this about Nuns on the "No Fly" list?

Citizens detained by the government indefinitely without charges, access to a lawyer, or even notification of relatives?

Coup or not these people are remaking the country into something new and completely different. This is not the freedom or the country the founders had in mind.

[Zhade]

114. Not all coup d'etats are military in nature or violent. Many are not.

NT!

[spanone]

29. Yep!

[Jacobin]

30. There is simply no doubt about it

Turn on the fricking TV. Read any mainstream paper.

Then go read a paper from abroad.

Propaganda nightmare 24/7 propping up the junta. The lies are so baldfaced as to be laughable, if it weren't so serious.

[MoonRiver]

31. Yes, of course, absolutely! But just when will Americans wake up?

Probably long after it is too late, sadly.

[ShaneGR]

34. My problem with your presentation

You say "neoconservatives"

You should start saying GOP (Republicans). Period. The problem isn't the Republicans in general. This has to do with the leadership in the Republican party. Without elections, there would be no neo-consevative control. The neo-conservatives do not run the elections. The Republican party committees do.

And you wonder why I freak out so bad when liberals, who I mostly agree with, start talking about the Green Party. These are desperate times, and we need to come together or you can kiss our asses goodbye. All of us.

[Q]

80. You're parsing words...

...and of course the 'junta' is the leadership of the Republican party. But...their party is obviously going along with their plans.

- You could start by not being 'freaked out' by liberals. They are probably the most 'faithful' of the party. Where we probably disagree is the direction of the party. Many of the more conservative Dems STILL insist (despite all the evidence to the contrary) that the party must continue to move 'right' in order to appeal to the so-called 'swing' voter. This completely disregards the fact that the BASE of our party can bring more than enough votes to win any election. They simply await a leadership and not the virtual rubber stamp we have now.

[Blue_Roses]

35. Just thinking the same thing

what is it gonna take...? Sickening if you look at how they have lied cheated and stolen their way, not to mention how they continue to dupe the CIA and others who take a stand against their tricks.

[Q]

39. Well...many say they know there was a coup...

...while many others still can't understand why we keep 'losing' elections. We're not losing them...we're being prevented from winning. And when we DO manage to get into the WH...we're not 'allowed' to govern (Clinton-Gore).

- What all of you have just described is the makings of a banana republic...not a democracy.

[Flying_Pig]

36. Well, here's an "atta boy", for stating things I have believed since

the 60's. And just like back in the 60's, I can see no way to peacefully dislodge the fascists that have taken over this nation, other than actually "storming the Bastille".

One more chance (the 04 elections), and that's all I am willing to give it. If we lose, and/or, there are not major changes in this nation, then we will all have to make a choice: Fight, leave, or grab our ankles...... simple as that.

[even]

37. Oh Please!

Is there anyone here that disagrees? You are a boat rower always looking back. What is the next step? I thought so. No answer,just whine and bitch. Your post is not helpfull at all.

[Q]

43. No...I'm a boat-rider pointing out a giant leak...

...and the useless effort of trying to bail the water with a teaspoon.

[Andy_Stephenson]

47. I was going to say thimble...

but it won't work either..

I am afraid if California is lost to the NAZI there will be no other choice but to fight I think.

[Snellius]

38. Desperation born of fear of capitalism in collapse

Tick, tick, tick

[Skip Intro]

40. yes

yes, i beleive every damned thing you said. it makes me so f**ing angry at times that i just want to explode.

what i don't get tho, is the rank and file repukes - how they all just fall in line and accept "victory" at all costs. At one time, I would have bet that a majority of them were actually decent people who just held a different view, certainly not people who'd rejoice in Wellstone's death or any victory by cheating. Don't any of them really believe the "golden rule" and the Christian values they trumpet? Are they all fine with stealing what they want? That's the part that's hard for me to believe. Or was.

yes, its time to realize what threatens our nation and our world. its time to be realistic about the lengths to whcih they will go. its time to fight on thier battlefield. i agree.

what steps are needed? what step is next?

[nannygoat]

49. Repukes put their party before their country

It's amazing to me how well disciplined they are, all talking the same right-wing spew and lies, from the White House to Rush Limpballs, everyone gets their talking points and sticks to them.

[enki23]

42. a coup?

talk to your fellow fucking americans. there's no coup. we're a nation of fucking idiots. the fucking idiots, otherwise known as "most everybody," deserve exactly what they get.

of course, *i* don't. but what the fuck. life ain't fair. the world deserves better than the two-legged parasites clinging to its skin, but "deserve," in reality, doesn't mean shit.

[greekspeak]

44. I'm cynical today

Audacity after audacity after audacity is served to the American people on a constant basis. Its like a Golden Corral Feedin' Trough stocked full of BS. And the people keep buying the spun news and the garbage spewing forth from Chimp's mouth, which is so vile that I swear he winces as he speaks sometimes. They got away with that aircraft carrier USO show with Chimp as the star. They are getting away with this ridiculous Texas redistricting by the republican party. California--CALIFORNIA--is apparently going to be governed by a fool that is an admitted Republican philanderer. So, there has been a coup. Don't expect to get more than 10% of Americans to even listen to you, and don't expect more than 1% to do something about it. Maybe if you take away their Paradise Hotel and their ubiquitous Judge______ shows they will gripe a little.

[leftofthedial]

45. whaddya mean admit?

it is fact.

[the_real_38]

48. Finally?

I've been 'admitting' it to the point it sounds like bitching.

[beanball]

50. The coup d'etat

By the BFEE,2000 the Whitehouse,2003 the statehouse(ca).lookout Chicago you're next.

[Selwynn]

51. The coup started long before 2000, so welcome to the parade.

[Q]

52. I'll leave you tonight with this thought:

"It was not expected in this age, that nations so honorably distinguished by their advances in science and
civilization, would suddenly cast away the esteem they had merited from the world and, revolting from
the empire of morality, assume a character in history which all the tears of their posterity will never wash
from its pages." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Philadelphia Democratic Republicans, 1808. ME 16:303

[HitmanLV]

53. No and No

You win some and you lose some.

There was no coup when FDR built his dynasty.

There is none now.

Democrats are not connecting with voters. If they did, tonight would have just been Oct 7th, not Recall night.

[Q]

You're obviously part of the 'move on' crowd...

...or with those intent on keeping the truth from the people.

- We know the truth. No amount of naysaying or propaganda will silence us. We KNOW when we're being cheated out of fair elections and when our Constitution is being shit on by neoconservative traitors.

- Democrats 'connected' in 2000 and Gore won the election. Election fraud and illegal SC decisions were covered up and Americans were intimidated into accepting lies.

- Don't try to piss on my shoes and call it rain. It's very insulting.

[HitmanLV]

57. don't see bogeymen and ghosts around every corner....

..it's insulting.

[Q]

58. Either refute my points...

...or go away. If you don't want to deal with the truth...that's your problem. Don't make it mine.

[HitmanLV]

61. There is no need to be rude

There is no coup in the USA. We lost an election in the largest state of the union. In 3 years, we can win it back.

Losing a few doesn't mean we are becoming an occupied nation.

The press isn't perfect, but they certainly weren't uniform in pulling for Arnold. The LA Times, for example, pulled out all the stops to derail Arnold in the home stretch. It didn't work.

The House and Senate are in control by the Republicans, but they are not subjugated at all. bush hasn't gotten everything he wants, and won't. Look at the recent court appointments that were stopped cold - how is that subjugation? No rubber stamp there.

You then list a bunch of stuff, (Florida, 9-11, etc). You raise legitimate issues on policy, but none of that means that there has been a coup in the usa.

The only way to win back government is to stay sensible, smart, and keep the terms of the debate civil and respectful. Anything extreme or over the top helps Bush. It's a question of strategy and effective communication.

Being shrill and vitriolic will alienate people, not win them over (witness Bush at the UN recently). The same dynamic is true domestically. I hope you can see that.

Otherwise tonight is a warmup for Election night 2004.

What does this mean for election 2004? It makes Cali compeditive, forcing the DNC to spend time and money there that would have been spent elsewhere. That's a problem. Your observations otherwise (taken power by deceit) are shrill, over the top, and serve only to hurt your credibility with independents. You won't convince many folks talking the way you do.

There was no coup d'état. Losing an election (or 2) isn't the end of the world - look at the Republicans: Totally shut out of power in 1992, and returned to dominate the House and Senate in 1994, a dominaton that pretty much lasts to this day. After 8 successful years of Clinton, Bush won 30 states to Gore's 20 & DC - that's not deceit or voter fraud, that's political reality. Gore won more popular votes than Bush - that's not deceit of voter fraud, that's political reality. After a sucessful 8 years with the presidency, Gore should have been able to score more than the 20 states (including his home state and Clintons) he won. He didn't or couldn't. That's a problem. But it doesn't mean there has been a coup d'état.

The truth is, by adopting your posture, you give too much credit and influence to the Gore voters and states, and not enough to the Bush voters and states.

Losing isn't suffering a coup. Sorry to disapoint you. Build towards winning. That's the way to succeed.

Like I said, you win some and you lose some.

A lot can change in 2 years. You have to give it a chance though, and work in a produtive manner.

[Q]

87. Of course 'losing' isn't suffering a coup...

...but stealing elections IS a coup...especially when the highest court in the land makes a 'one time' decision to stop the legal counting of the votes.

- You're not paying attention to the overall pattern. A coup is about usurping the Constitution and circumventing the people's representatives through deceit and intimidation.

- We're now a lawless nation that has disregarded the UN, broken international treaties and use 'preemptive strikes' without evidence of threat.

- A coup is more than about elections. It's everything that takes place afterwards. Shadow governments. Using war and threats of war to incite nationalism and silence dissent.

[HitmanLV]

107. get a grip...

Stop reliving Florida 2000. The truth is that the florida votes were counted (twice) and that the court decided to scrutinize several counties, at the expense of the others, was unfair. We may disagree, but it's not hard to see that the position does have a point.

The supreme court decision that decided this was 7-2, a detail lost of most of the critics of the way florida 2000 was handled.

A court could rationally look at the facts and come to the conclusion they did.

Not getting to keep on counting votes (that have been counted twice) isn't a coup, sorry.

The pattern is the dem message isn't getting accross, and not resonating with people. If you solve that problem, you solve the political losses.

As for lawlessness and the UN, no president is bound by what the UN says - Clinton did his sucessful Kosovo campaign outside of the UN entirely. Kosovo presented no threat to the USA, yet we mobilized NATO to action.

Now we may agree or disagree on that, but it doesn't mean the USA is a lawless nation. Same thing with Iraq - we may agree or disagree, but losing the public debate doesn't mean the campaign is necessarily illegal.

Of course a coup is more than elections. Every political party uses fear to motivate people. It's politics. The republicans use war and issues of physical safety to motivate people. The dems use fear over more personal issues (reproduvtice choice, economic issues, fear of being poor, unemployed, sick) to motivate people.

Neither of these patterns adds up to a coup. By thinking the way you do, you marginalize yourself in the eyes of many people who might otherwise vote with you.

And that isn't wise.

[Zhade]

115. You're either woefully uninformed - or willfully uninformed.

NT!

[Selwynn]

117. I opened this post hoping to find a strong argument

and instead found vapor...

Good job Zhade. I was somoene undecided in this argument. I said the "coup" happened long ago, but I didn't mean what Q means - I just mean that the country has strayed so pathetically far from the democracy that was originally intended that its hard even worth keeping up pretenses anymore, and the decline began with the industrial revolution.

As far as the tinfoil conspiracy theories of stealing "elections", I agree with Hitman on every point. The entire system is fucked to hell on all sides, but aside from that, not victime to the kind of paranoid theories being suggested...

That being said, I still had doubts, I was willing to be convinced, I was open to the other point of view, but in response to good argument, I go to this post, with a half-witty subject line and no content. Not nearly as convincing.

[HitmanLV]

120. I agree with you

That we have strayed from our original intent as a nation is undoubtable, but I think that cuts all ways. Sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad.

The Senate wasn't intended to be elected directly by the people - that changed, and I think that's a good thing.

The national budget wasn't intended to include many things it does now. Sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad.

I agree with you also, and thank you for agreeing with me, that a lot of the talk in this splinter of the thread is unproductive. The debate will not be won with alienating language.

Keep the faith - we didn't get here in a day, and we won't get out in a day either.

[HitmanLV]

119. I am neither....

...I just don't think paranoid talk, living in the past, or blaming people is ever the answer to a problem.

I can see both sides of arguments - life is seldom 'I am smart, my opponent is stupid; I am honest, my opponent lies; Those who agree with me are enlightened, those who are not are either on the take or uninformed."

Capturing the terms of any debate is the first step toward winning it. Bogeymen, conspiracies, 'elected/selected,' and related thoughts diminish our voice, not increase our credibility/electability.

[indigo32]

101. Q

I agree completely that 2000 was a coup...
stolen... no doubt about it...WHO LET IT HAPPEN and WHAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT IT NOW but to fight on to 2004. Frankly at times like that I think we needed a press to step in. It was not and is not happening. Ronald Reagan took care of them.

Yesterday... well people voted for Arnold overwhelmingly. Was it all because of a Repuke controlled press... so I suppose in a way... but they DID vote for the man.

I guess I'm at a loss as to what the point of these posts is sometimes. What do you expect us to do? Right now... things are bad but could be MUCH WORSE... but for the pressure we continue to exert. What you are seeing is a power struggle. One that has and will always exist. I don't see any benefit pushing things to violence... I simply don't. I think we need to ask ourselves what our ultimate goals are. Is it punishment of the wicked... is it peace and prosperity...what? I often wonder if we've even determined THAT answer.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

89. Please read the rules

and don't call DUers Freepers. If you think that somebody deserves to be thrown out, hit alert.

[E Pluribus Unum]

73. I disagree hitman. Dems did conect with the voters.

Davis message was loud and clear. He said more of the same if
I continue to be Gov. Arnold said lower taxes and less
spending. The voters heard both messages loud and clear and they made their choice.

[Astarho]

102. It is possible

that Dems did not connect with voters and there was still a coup.

There was no coup when FDR built his dynasty.

There almost was, ask General Smedley Butler.

There is none now.
The actions of the US Supreme Court were in direct violation of the Constitution. A bloodless coup, but a coup none the less.

[Solly Mack]

54. Yep. Yep. Yep.

::::::::nods head vigorously::::::::::

[ixion]

55. I have said this since the Chimp was selected...

And what is causing me great distress is that it continues and it is getting much, much worse, and there are only a few of us out there who seem to give a damn.

I don't mean this is affecting me in a casual way. It's making it difficult to work. It makes it difficult to concentrate, or to be happy. I cannot be happy in a land of Nazis. That's just not the way I'm wired.

This is just getting started, and it is going to get much worse, I'm afraid.

[Q]

56. CNN just announced ARnold elected gov....

...the coup continues.

[Q]

59. Consider this thread...

...in your dreams tonight.

[Cocoa]

60. enjoy your champagne, Q

but we'll have the last laugh when our unnamed dem kicks George out in 2004.

[Q]

78. Champagne is nice...

...but you won't see me celebrating any time soon.

- Watched a few minutes of the Democranator this morning. Strangely enough...it sounded just like Bush's* 'acceptance' speech: full of bullshit and promises he can't and won't keep. Many seem to think and hope that he will be 'okay' because he's 'pro-choice'. That's naive thinking. He OWES those who bought his way into office.

- Your post implies that I don't WANT Dems to win in 2004. All I can say is you're not looking at the larger picture...and you haven't learned the lessons of the past.

[farmboxer]

62. All Democrats Need To Do Is Tell The Truth!

Republicans have to lie! The truth to a Republican is like a cross to a vampire!

Yes, America had a coup in 2000. President Gore should be reelected!

[opihimoimoi]

63. I'm in too

Count the Opi in for the long haul.....

Come, we go lick wounds.

[YourDad]

64. I will admit it right now

things are getting very scary in america. those on the right care about power and they don't care what they have to do to get it. they are rigging elections left and right and just imagine what they will do when they have finally consoldiated power all over america. it will be the nazis all over again. i don't think most people will wake up in time.

[Piperay]

66. No finally about it, I have known it

since the Selection of 2000 and now the theft in my own state confirms it completely.

[Iverson]

67. been arguing that for a long time

That is why seeing Dems embrace "bipartisanship" is so very outrageous.

[Zhade]

68. Someone has to be awfully ignorant, afraid, or both to avoid seeing it.

I admit it completely.

And we need to fight back.

[joanski01]

74. I'm with you all the way.

These people can do anything they want and get away with it. Yes, there's been a coup. After Arnie, I hold no hope for us in 2004.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

77. yes Q...i will NOT give the freepers - who will be here lurking in troves

the pleasure of reading my disgust...

HOW ABOUT THEM REDSOCKS?...maybe the Mt Everst summit prayers broke the curse

[Q]

79. My friends...there is always hope...

...but hope is not enough.

- You may have noticed that I began this thread before Arnie was 'elected'. I knew it was a done deal. Just as the coverup of the outting of the CIA operative was a done deal. Just as the LIES about Iraq and WMD was a done deal. And so on.

- It won't do much good to elect a Dem in the WH if the House and Senate remain subjugated and are only called upon as a rubber stamp for decisions made by the junta.

- What happened? Why didn't the Party back Kennedy up last week when he came out with what the whole world knows is the truth? Why did they ignore Byrd BEFORE and after the 'war'? My guess is that the 'conservatives' in the party have too much influence and have advised to keep a 'low profile' so as to not appear 'unpatriotic'. But we're way beyond worrying about how we look to the opposition. They've declared war on US.

- Many of the same people who voted for Bush* in 2000 will vote for him again in 2004. Dems will do the same. This once again sets up a scenario where Bush* can sneak through on technicalities and 'mistakes'. The media will do the rest.

- And yes...the FReepers and the fearful will be out in force to advise that the 'people have spoken' and that we're just 'sorelosermen' for complaining. Sound familiar?

[Cocoa]

90. confused thinking

You're displaying it and encouraging it.

It won't do much good to elect a Dem in the WH if the House and Senate remain subjugated and are only called upon as a rubber stamp for decisions made by the junta.

This is nonsense in so many ways:

-- who said anything about not trying to win the House and Senate? Just this week Tom Daschle introduced a slogan for 2004: "12-2-1" meaning 12 seats in the House, 2 in the Senate, and the White House.

-- but ignoring that flaw, the Congress is not a rubber stamp, even now, even with Bush as president and the dems in the minority. You persistently ignore all dem successes, even as a minority, in blocking Bush.

-- but setting aside those two flaws, if the dems win the White House, that means Bush is gone, and so what can you possibly mean when you talk about the junta. The junta would be gone.

The only thing consistent about your posts is that it's consistently, overwhelmingly negative, that it feeds on all the things that DUers are angry about and it totally ignores all the positives.

It's a mishmosh of truisms and nonsense conclusions, and I wonder why you work so hard at it.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

81. intellect, common sense and thought are dead in america..corp group think

now reigns.....we have given our minds away to them and we are MINDLESS SLAVES dragging stones building their pyramids....we are SLAVES lets not kid ourselves anymore...freedom NEVER did exist

where is our Moses?

[Q]

84. Given that we KNOW that RWingers have cheated in the past...

...and that many GOP-owned voting machines have no paper trail...who can really say if ANY election is above board? That's the question we're going to have to face with each and every election.

- Please don't despair. We're not on the 'wrong' side...just the side that doesn't have a voice at the moment.

- But before we can fight the junta...we must convince many within our own party that we don't have to be like the political enemy in order to win. They've misinterpreted the reason why we've 'lost' time after time since 1994. They fail to take into account that the opposition is no longer playing by the rules.

[deutsey]

82. I've been saying that since December 2000

[messiah]

83. What needs

to happen will not with wishy washy moderates. Being practical tells us that 90% of the time that moderates will not stand against the enimies of democracy.

[VOX]

85. Yes, it happened 3 years ago, in Florida...

Everything that's happened since then simply plays out a familiar pattern.

Your observations and suggestions are quite profound, Q. thanks for posting this.

[Q]

86. Unanswered questions and 'coincidences'...

- I'm hoping that more 'moderates' participate in this discussion. Do they feel everything has simply been a series of coincidences since 2000? Do they feel that Clinton's impeachment was about lying? Do they think the 2000 election was 'stolen' or just 'close'?

- Here's the rub: we're the party of the poor, the worker, the disenfranchised. We represent those without money or property...those having a difficult time right now just surviving. Yet...here we are trying to be like those who represent the rich and the ruling class. Where does this leave those we USED TO represent? Do we simply hope they vote for us because there is no alternative? Have we given up on working to win their vote?

- Most of the poor and working class no longer vote because they feel their vote is wasted or they've simply lost HOPE. Instead of wooing the 'swing' (conservative) voter...the party must return to its roots and fight once again for the working class.

[NoKingGeorge]

92. How good are you on ideas ?

Instead of eloquently stating the obvious, why not present well reasoned ideas to turn the tide. Specific and doable ideas are what we need.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

88. to keep my sanity i must believe that Arnold is a democratic plant

in the GOP....

there's no place like home...there's no place like home....there's no place like home...clicking heels together 3 times

[Q]

91. Arnie is an opportunist...

...he'll go with the flow of the money. But HE is the least of our problems.

- The Dem party has lost their identity and have become opportunists just like Arnie.

- Did you notice how Kennedy's speech about Bush's* phony war has been completely ignored by the party machine? This was a great opportunity to open up the dialogue and begin investigations and hearings. But once again a brave Dem has been left to flap in the wind...left to be characterized by the RWingers as a voice that doesn't represent the thoughts of the party.

- Was Kennedy right? Did Bush* lie about the reasons to invade Iraq? Are they using a 'time of war' to prop up the power base of the GOP?

- We've allowed too many 'scandals' to pass by without inspection or investigation. Bush* has been given one free pass after another...only to give the impression that he's innocent or right.

[dweller]

93. this thread

and this one
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

need to meet and not fall off the front page, so

dp

[Q]

94. Good Morning!

- Let's talk about the coup in America. Any takers?

[Q]

95. Okay...for those who don't understand what a coup is:

What is a Coup d'Etat?

One of the landmark studies of the mechanics of coups d'etat was first published in 1968 by Harvard University. Coup d'Etat: A Practical Handbook was written by Edward Luttwak, a conservative scholar with a long career in the national security system. During the Reagan-era, he served as a "consultant" to the National Security Council and the State Department. Currently, Luttwak is senior fellow of "Preventive Diplomacy" at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think-tank with close ties to US intelligence. He is also a member of the National Security Study Group of the Dept. of Defense.  3  

In his study, Luttwak writes that while a coup may have characteristics of other, more violent forms of extra-legal seizure of power, "the coup is not necessarily assisted by either the intervention of the masses, or, to any significant degree, by military-type force."  4  

But if a coup does not use warfare or a mass uprising to seize control, then where does it get the power to do so? "The short answer," Luttwak says, "is that the power will come from the state itself... A coup consists of the infiltration of a small but critical segment of the state apparatus, which is then used to displace the government from its control of the remainder."  5  

Normally, a coup does not seek to destroy the basic structure of the existing government, which is more typical of a revolution or a war for liberation. Instead, Luttwak explains, those undertaking a true coup d'etat "want to seize power within the present system, and shall only stay in power if embody some new status quo supported by those very forces which a revolution may seek to destroy."  6   (Emphasis in original.)

In other words, the coup takes advantage of the governmental structure itself, as well as the bureaucratic nature of modern governments. There is an established hierarchy, an accepted chain of command, and standard procedures that are followed when instructions come down this pipeline. So long as the instructions come from the appropriate source or level of authority, they will almost always be followed even if from a new, and illegitimate, holder of that authority.

Luttwak explains that a coup "operates by taking advantage of this machine-like behavior: during the coup because it uses parts of the state apparatus to seize the controlling levers; afterwards because the value of the 'levers' depends on the fact that the state is a machine."  7  

Thus, by gaining control over a few carefully selected pivotal points of power within the government bureaucracy, the plotters of the coup can effectively gain control over the entire "machine" of state.

http://www.lumpen.com/coup2k/framer.html?pg=2

[Cocoa]

96. that would be great if we lived in a dictionary world

take a leap into the real world where there are nine great candidates and one scandal-enmired chimp whose poll numbers are plummeting.

A practical suggestion on how to do this. Once in a while read some newspapers about actual things that are happening in our government. There's an excellent "Latest breaking news" forum here at DU.

[Q]

98. Don't try to force your ignorance of the state of the union...

...on others. I posted the definition of a coup so people like 'you' could understand. I guess I've failed in that goal.

- You've reduced yourself to someone who watches 'polls' and validates your opinion by what's happening in the 'news'. But then again...you can't quite explain how the Bushies have been able to attain so much power in so short of time. You can't explain supreme court decisions or why 9-11 remains unexamined or why Bush* lies about Iraq and war go mostly unchallenged.

- Read the post before yours and try to understand it in the broader context of American politics.

[Cocoa]

100. I think you're right in a lot of ways

Most of what you're saying I long ago internalized. I've never considered Bush to be legitimate. He's a squatter, and I think a lot of dems and citizens in this country and around the world agree with that.

So that's where we are. The most powerful country in the world is being run by an illegitimate regime, and it shows. It's completely tragic, and it's hurting people, but it's where we are.

My response is to focus on ending this tragic situation, and the only way to do it is through the ballot box.

I totally reject what you said above, and elsewhere, about the futility of voting.

[Q]

103. Dupe...

...sorry bout that.

[Q]

104. "Futility" is YOUR word...

...not mine. What you seem to be saying is that we shouldn't be worried that our opponents are ready and willing to use illegal means to stay in power...and keep us FROM power.

- You don't seem to see the contradiction in your agrument. You say we need to 'end' this 'tragic' situation...but by using the very ballot box that has been proven in the past to be manipulated. In other words...you're still depending on democracy and the vote to 'save us' even after these concepts have failed.

- Reject what you want. I prefer to try to repair the system before we have to depend on it to 'elect' the next president.

[Cocoa]

105. here's your words from a post above

It won't do much good to elect a Dem in the WH if the House and Senate remain subjugated and are only called upon as a rubber stamp for decisions made by the junta.


You promote various flavors of futility, that don't really have anything in common other than being defeatist.

-- nothing will change with a dem president, because the republicans will still control Congress.

-- nothing will change with a dem president, because the dems are the same as the republicans.

-- a dem can't win, because the republicans control the media

-- a dem can't win, because the republicans are going to fix the election

-- the dems can't win, because they don't stand up to the republicans

"There's no hope" is really the only consistent theme in your posts, the rest is just confusion and contradictions and things everyone already obviously knows, though presented as new.

[Q]

106. You're referring to different topics...

...and trying to blend them into one argument.

- I stand by what I said. It should be obvious by now that our congress is bascially rubber stamping for Bush* on the major issues.

- You should be ashamed of yourself for implying that the rest of the sentences are quotes from me. These are your interpretations of what I've posted....or just shit you've made up out of thin air.

- You're distorting my positions. Saying the RWing owns the media doesn't automatically translate into the Dems losing. It means that we should use this knowledge to fight them. Same goes for the rest of your non-quotes.

- And then you end your post with a grand lie...saying that I've suggested that there is 'no hope'. This makes it pretty clear that you haven't read this whole thread and that you're engaging in attack politics.

- I have no idea what your obsession with my threads is all about...but please stop misquoting me.

[Zhade]

118. The lack of a jackbooted approach is why people refuse to see the truth.

Those of us who have acknowledged and accepted our fear, and desire even more now the end to this madness, must remember this: people are not just ignorant, they are afraid of knowledge, because who wants to know deep down that they have been lied to for their entire lives by the government they trust?

We will continue speaking out and spreading the word. We should be prepared to help those who want to know but are terrified. They, like us, are barraged with abuse - deliberately-inflicted government and corporate abuse.

We must save everyone we can while we fight. They deserve a chance to rectify things, too.

[bring_em_home_bush]

97. ~

There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.
John Adams

[donsu]

99. Yes a coup using rigged voting machines

nt

[noiretextatique]

108. never thought otherwise

voter purge in florida (coincidentally bush's brother is governor)
faux scotus decision (coincidentally decided by republicans on the court)

1+1 = COUP elementary, my dear Q.

[Q]

110. It should be elementary...

...but I'm getting to the point where I don't give a shit if Democrats realize the danger they're in. Hell...the party is still 'debating' how far to the right they should go in order to win elections.

- Dems are so obsessed with winning they can't see that the opposition is set to make sure they can't win...even if they get the most votes. RWingers are laughing their asses off at us and smirking at how stupidly we respond to their dirty tricks and shitting on our Constitution.

- I'm ready to give up and retire to my cabin in the mountains. To hell with it all.

[noiretextatique]

111. room for anyone else in that cabin?

after yesterday (i'm in california), i am about ready to head for the hills myself. i hear an ever fainter whisper that says "this is just the darkness before the dawn," but i'm beginning to wonder...

[Q]

112. I wonder what all these 'moderates' are going to say...

...if Bush* stays in the WH after 2004? Who will they blame then...Nader? Rove? My guess is they'll blame anyone BUT the Dem party.

- Much more of this shit and we'll have to rename it the Titantic party.

[BiggJawn]

109. Admit??? Hell, I called it for what it was in November 2000...

"Bloodless" Coup.

[sweetheart]

116. yes, impeach the bastards for treason

Then find every republican voter and bury them head down so they can see better.