Who's willing to take it to the streets if Arnold wins?

[AP]

Poll question: Who's willing to take it to the streets if Arnold wins?

Will you protest the end of democracy in California if Arnold becomes governor with fewer votes than the No vote gets?

Poll result (64 votes)
Yes.	(4 votes, 6%)	Vote
Hell, yes.	(2 votes, 3%)	Vote
Fuck yeah.	(52 votes, 81%)	Vote
YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!YES!	(3 votes, 5%)	Vote
I'll have to think about it for a split second...and...yes.	(3 votes, 5%)	Vote

[VermontDem2004]

1. No

I hope I don't get accused for "right wing spin" but Arizona was going to have a recall about 10 years ago for a very unpopular and racist republican governor, but later on a scandal erupted and the recall was unnecessary because he got impeached. My point is it is not undemocratic for having a recall, having more yes then no votes mean most people want him gone, that's democracy. The replacement gets more votes then the other replacements and becomes governor, that is democracy. In democracy the majority rules. Now if I lived in California I would vote 'No' on the recall and tally one for Bustamante just so you know.

[chadm]

4. And when someone becomes goverer with 30% of a vote...

in a Democracy, you have another recall and get him out.

[VermontDem2004]

9. If 30%

is more then the rest of the other candidates yes it's democracy. You have to remember there are around 200 candidates running, Ventura became governor of Minnesota with 38% of the vote which was more then any other candidate.

[AP]

47. But if 30% is 19.999 points less than the percentage of people

who wanted to keep Davis, is that democratic?

[AP]

5. Oh, come on! It's democracy when you have an election where

the guy who comes in second place wins?

[Terwilliger]

7. It's a democracy because that's the rule of law

and since Democrats did nothing to stop the recall law before, I have to assume they didn't have a problem with it either

[AP]

11. It was a stupid law passed by undemocratic idiots

a century ago. And who's going to overturn the law? The second someone did, the other side would have destroyed them. Can you imagine?

Back when the recall law was passed, women and blacks couldn't vote 'cuase that was the law.

It took a revolution to change those stupid laws too.

Right now, we need a revolution for democracy.

[Terwilliger]

16. so if it's politically expedient to do the wrong thing...

do it anyway?

Your revolution idea is interesting...tell me, just where will the voices for this revolution come from?

[AP]

24. It's the wrong thing to object to undemocratic laws?

Like I said, step aside Terwiliger. Don't get in the way.

[Terwilliger]

36. Why didn't the party object to the law if it was so undemocratic?

they had 90 years to change it!

[AP]

40. Terwiliger, think about it.

I'm going to tell you this as well: Comprehension is not requisite for cooperation.

However, comprehension is nice. Overturning this law is a huge political hot potato. Who is goint to overturn it? The minute you do, you raise suspicions. Why would someone want to remove the recall mechanism. They're up to no good. Neither Democrats nor Republicans overturned this law. It's a tool to keep the rich in power as well, and both parties are worried about what the rich think. It doesn't make this law right.

[Terwilliger]

55. so what do you suggest?

How do you sustain year long protests?

Who's going to back you?

[AP]

60. So, what are YOU suggesting?

Razor blades to the wrists? Lengthwise cuts?

[Terwilliger]

74. answering my question with a question?

[Forkboy]

AP isn't interested in answering questions

just browbeating those that dare disagree.

[AP]

86. Answers? I'll protest publicly. Forkboy, you don't seem interested

in democracy.

[Forkboy]

87. that's your opinion

and not a very valid one.

But continue showing how tolerant you are of those who disagree.

[JVS]

64. Oh no, Terwilliger is speaking on the side of law and order

They better bury us all with snow shovels in case we go to hell!

[Terwilliger]

75. JVS

that was out of left-field...what do you mean?

[AP]

22. If you're not interested, T., then just step aside.

[Terwilliger]

34. step aside what? the rush to the streets?

[AP]

41. You seem really intent on dispensing the blue pill today!

What's your problem?

[Terwilliger]

49. I'll go in the streets with ya

when are we going?

[VermontDem2004]

10. Who said second place?

(Say gray davis loses and Arnold wins)

Most people wanted Gray Davis Gone. MOST

Most people wanted Arnold as the Replacement. MOST

There is nothing undemocratic about a recall, where were you in the late 80's in Arizona? Where were you when some freepers tried to recall John McCain but failed to get enough signatures?

[AP]

17. Hello? Say 51% wanted Davis gone, but he's not allowed to run

on the second half of the ballot where he still might have received more votes than the 500 other candidats.

Please explain to me how that is democratic?

This recall takes two emotions..."do you like this guy?" and "if you could vote for someone else, who would it be?" and divides them up in a way so that you can get a different result than if you had a normal election in which you asked "among all these people who want to represent your interests, who do you want?"

I wish we could vote for Republicans the way this recall is run.

People DON'T LIKE POLITICIANS. They vote for the best of a bunch of people they don't really like all that much. JFK, Nixon, LBJ, Reagan, GHWB, Clinton, Carter, GWB all probably would have lost elections if they were separated out from the rest of the pack and you first voted on whether you liked them. But that's not how we run elections.

This stupid law is DESIGNED to get out of office someone who would win a DEMOCRATIC election.

[VermontDem2004]

21. You are talking about two different ballots

51% what Davis gone that is a majority

A recall is different then a regular action a recall's sole purpose is to determine whether or not the majority of the people want the currect governor gone.

It is up to the second ballot to decide who the governor is, if one of the replacements gets more votes then the others he is governor.

[AP]

25. Read my post about why there are two different ballots.

They have two ballots BY DESIGN to get the undemocratic result they want.

The TWO BALLOT part is part of the problem.

[ComerPerro]

26. AP, I agree

To me, a vote of "no" on recall is a vote for Davis. Say "no" gets 47% (losing to "yes", at 53%).

Then suppose Arnold wins with 32% of the vote.

47% of California wants Davis, 32% wants Arnold. Arnold wins.

Its bullshit.

[AP]

30. Thank you. Clearly you don't get your news from Fox, CBS, NBC, or ABC

You still have your critical faculties.

Thank you.

[ComerPerro]

35. Critical faculties? I don't know about that....

I think its just that I am really cynical.

And, we can always recall!!!!

[xxqqqzme]

90. Excuuuuuze me

but less than a year ago there was an ELECTION for Governor in CA. If everyone was so fucking fed up w/ Davis - why was he on the ballot? He was elected w/o rigged voting machines, recounts or the Supreme Court. This recall is many things....one thing it is NOT is democratic!

[Emillereid]

23. Seems to be a trend in democracy that the second place finisher wins --

RE-DEFEAT BUSH!!!

[Selwynn]

18. Agree. Sad but true.

[quinnox]

2. Sure, I'll take to the street...

in joy!

It's a joke!

[Terwilliger]

3. er, yeah...sure

like that will do a DAMN thing

[AP]

6. It'll send a message to the media that we haven't taken the blue pill.

[Terwilliger]

8. uhh...did you see the anti-war protests?

We didn't take the blue pill either, and nobody gave a damn.

[AP]

13. Those anti-war protests might be part of the reason Bush's

popularity ratings are so low today.

What do you think that national mood would be like today if there wasn't a mood then that produced those protests?

[Terwilliger]

19. if there wasn't that mood then there might not have been a war

and your question would be moot

What atmosphere do you hope to create? Civil war? Republicans wont be out in the street talking disenfranchisment if Arnie wins.

And you people are fine purveyors of how bad the system is...you know, that same system where you folks tell me I have to shed ideological notions for the good of the cause

[AP]

27. Bush wasn't democratically elected and he won't behave democratically

and THAT'S why we went to war.

which is why we have to make a stand now.

We should have taken it to the streets in Dec 2000. That's when you could have stopped the war.

Are we going to make the same mistake with California?

[Terwilliger]

33. I was in the streets in January 2000

in the streets in April 2002 against the war

please don't tell me about being in the streets

What you seem to fail to realize is that (mainly) only Dems care that there's no democracy....and only some Dems, not all

[AP]

45. Why do you want to stop now, then?

If you've had enough, then why discourage all those DU'ers who might remind you of a younger, more idealistic Terwilliger circa January 2000 or April 2002.

What has happened since April to make you such a cynic?

[Terwilliger]

50. the war...

the fact that Democrats wouldn't (and still won't) do anything they should do...

you know...stupid shit like that...stupid shit like thinking there might be someone in government to represent all of us that would go into the street..

Fact is, AP, Dems would run away from anybody who went to the street to protest. "Get over it" Kerry said...get over it, indeed

[AP]

61. So, uh, it's game over. Bush wins?

Did Bush play the war exactly right? Did it break the backs of everyone willing to protest in defense of Democracy?

[Terwilliger]

76. play the war?

what are you going on about?

what do you suggest??

[meisje]

12. whatever

no

[L.A.dweller]

14. If anything i would be there to protest against this media spin

and favorable bias towards Arnold. IT is disgusting.

[davidinalameda]

15. it doesn't matter if he gets fewer votes than the No votes

it's two separate ballot issues

[AP]

28. Have you taken the blue pill?

Read my post above about why there are two different ballots.

[AP]

20. Hey, who likes this Thunderclap Newman song?

Call out the instigator because there's something in the air.
We've got to get together sooner or later because the revolution's here.

And you know it's right.
And you know that it's right.
We have got to get it together.
We have got to get it together now.

Run through the fields and houses 'cause there's somthing in the air.
We've got to get together sooner or later because the revolution's here.

And you know it's right.
And you know that it's right.
We have got to get it together.
We have got to get it together now.

Call out the instigator because there's something in the air.
We've got to get together sooner or later because the revolution's here.

And you know it's right.
And you know that it's right.
We have got to get it together. We have got to get it together now.


(I should note, I'm NOT advocating violence...think of "guns" and "ammo" as being metaphors for "truth" and "justice").

[RebelOne]

29. I'd be willing

but I don't live in California/

[slackmaster]

31. No

Sorry, but the Constitution of the state is the supreme law.

If you don't like the recall provision, tell your elected representatives that you want it changed.

[AP]

32. If it said that women couldn't vote and blacks were 2/5 people

you wouldn't protest that?

Folks, it's OK to protest bad laws which produce undemocratic results.

[slackmaster]

37. Good example of a Straw Man argument

If it said that women couldn't vote and blacks were 2/5 people you wouldn't protest that?

That is not what I wrote.

Folks, it's OK to protest bad laws which produce undemocratic results.

That's another Straw Man. I never said it wasn't OK to protest.

I said I would not protest. I would start writing letters to my elected representatives and suggest some changes to the Constitution, which I have already done in fact.

[AP]

39. Comprehension is not requisite for cooperation.

If you don't get it, that's fine. Another thing to consider...

This is your last chance, slackmaster.
After this, there is no going back.
You take the blue pill and the story ends.
You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe
You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
Remember that all I am offering is the truth.....

[slackmaster]

44. I think you are overestimating the significance of this event

It is not the end of the world or even the end of Democracy if Gray Davis is ousted by a majority of people who cast votes today and someone else replaces him. It's just an event in an ongoing history of how our systems of government adjust themselves. With an adversarial system it's inevitable, even desirable for conflicts to flare up and for power to shift one way then another.

[AP]

46. When unelected people have control over the lives of millions

it's a very significant issue.

And if I guy comes in second in an election and wins, that's 'unelected', in my book.

[slackmaster]

48. Voters are not so shallow that they don't understand how this works

If more than half of the people vote Yes on the recall that means they want Gray Davis out no matter who wins Question 2.

If they don't like those odds they can vote No on the recall.

It's an unusual election, but those are the rules.

BTW - Gerald Ford became President of the United States even though he got ZERO votes for the office. We all survived the experience, although his limo damn near ran me off the road once.

[AP]

51. Here's a motto I've never lived by "but those are the rules."

If the rules are wrong, you protest them, and you change them.

You don't sit back and swallow the blue pill.

[Terwilliger]

53. unless you're told that the Democrats will take care of things

then you're expected to just sit and take it

[slackmaster]

57. Knock yourself out protesting

I think time would be better spent composing thoughtful, clear communications to state senators and assembly members.

[AP]

63. I bet you'd have time to do both if you wanted to.

[slackmaster]

71. I have other tasks that are more pressing right now

It would be nice to be either young and underemployed or in school, or older and retired. Either way I'd have more time for outdoor fun activities like going to protests. Right now I have responsibilities like work, my volunteer activities, and constructive political dialogues.

I applaud your willingness to protest, but must send my regrets this time.

[AP]

72. that is unless you're too busy slacking or mastering

and mastering your slack, or whatever it is you do.

[Forkboy]

77. your rudeness and snotiness to those that disagree

certainly isn't doing a damn thing to show your maturity in dealing with any real tangible things that might help.

[slackmaster]

79. My job involves Time Control

I am a Living Time Control Master and a Supreme Supervisor of the Church of the SubGenius, and you will respect my authoritayh.

[Terwilliger]

38. thank you for bestowing on us our sense of citizenship

[AP]

42. Thanks for sharing with us your sense of complacency.

It's really easy to dismiss.

[AP]

43. Thanks for sharing your sense of complacency.

[Terwilliger]

52. as Ive said...I've been in the street

I did more than most Democrats did...SO WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU LAYING THIS SHIT ON ME?!?!

[AP]

58. Because I'm responding to your negativity.

Nobody made you post to this thread. And, jeez, listening to your negativity almost makes me want to slit my wrists. So, instead of giving into defeatism, I'm giving you a lot of shit.

I thought that much was obvious.

If you don't want shit laid on you, stop listening to Morrissey, get out in the sunshine for a little light therapy, and stop complaining in this thread.

[slackmaster]

62. How much more negativity would it take for you to slit your wrists?

I'll be happy to help my buddy Terwilliger out on this one.

[AP]

66. So, you propose a little citizen activism and people want you dead?

Hmm.

[slackmaster]

67. ou-yay issed-may the arcasm-say

orry-say.

[AP]

69. itto-day

uhday.

[Terwilliger]

78. I've been asking (since my first post) what you suggest

You, me, and slack can go protest...ok...we will...

what happens then?

[slackmaster]

80. I got arrested at a protest once

It made me miss some classes and was generally a sucky experience.

[Terwilliger]

88. I'm not worried about being arrested

I just want to know what effect my protest will have on anything :shrug"

[Forkboy]

54. Other than making yourself feel good

what would it really accomplish?

[AP]

59. You really need an anwer to that question?

I see we have a lot of work to accomplish here.

What issue would make you take it to the streets? Just curious.

[Forkboy]

65. I do need an answer

like many I did take to the streets against the war and it didn't change a damn thing.

So please,instead of a smart ass condescending answer how about really answering honestly.

[AP]

68. You're right.

Forget about it.

Sit home. Read DU. Don't do anything.

Sorry to momentarily upset your sense that that was doing something.

You've convinced me I'm wrong.

Go back to what you were doing.

And feel good about it.

[Forkboy]

70. I see you can't actually answer the question

and have to resort to childish behaviour and insults.

sad,but expected based your previous answers in this thread.

[AP]

85. I can't tell if you don't like me because of something

else I've posted at DU, or if you really really just don't like groups of people expressing in public their dissatisfaction with the slow demise of American democracy.

I don't know if I'd have more respect for you if it were the former or the latter.

[Forkboy]

89. Still wont answer my question I notice

and I could care less if you respect me or not.

And please stop putting words in my mouth.If does your argument no good and makes you look even more foolish than you already are acting.

[Forkboy]

91. kick

[sujan]

56. NO

[Blitz]

73. Not a chance

No way, no how. I want whoever is in office to succeed and for the situation in the state to improve. tying up my city will do nothing to accomplish that.

[slackmaster]

82. Not only that, the surf's up!

Northwest swell coming in now!



Cowabunga.

[Mari333]

81. I will boycott everything in California

and never visit again as long as the sexual assualter is in. I used to like to visit, but I think all womens groups should boycott the state until the rapist in charge is ousted.

[slackmaster]

84. You are slipping into hyperbole

Nobody's accused Arnold of rape. At least not yet.

[knight_of_the_star]

83. I will

And I'll bring along some friends. I know that the legislature would have no issues with making ahnuld's life totally miserable.