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Daniel 8:25 (Scripture)

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skypilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:52 PM
Original message
Daniel 8:25 (Scripture)
So I'm at my library job and I come across a book entitled "Metaphors and Monsters" by Paul A. Porter. It is a literary-critical study of Daniel 7 and 8. I open the book at random and the first thing I see is this bit of scripture:

By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand and in his own mind he shall magnify himself. Without warning he shall destroy many; and he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes; but, by no human hand, he shall be broken.

Sound like anyone we know?

I'm not a particularly religious person and the only way I've ever been able to read any of the Bible was by opening it at random and reading whatever my eyes fell upon. a good number of times I come across passages like the one above. Let's hope that "he" shall be broken soon.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. WOW!!!
n/t
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. You're better off staying away from "prophecy" in the bible...
and instead looking at the more basic, moral principles.

My favorites are the Gospels, outside of John. Luke with the original ending is quite fascinating -- the apostles simply found the tomb empty, and that was it. The whole part about the "risen Christ" was added to it by the church hundreds of years later.

Also good is Matthew 5-6 (The Sermon on the Mount).

When you start thinking about the viability of prophecy, it's not much different than the "end timers" who think that Revelations is literally unfolding before our eyes.
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JewelDigger Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Why don't you like John?
n/t
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I find John to be the most "evangelical" of the gospels
IMHO, it is a little more heavy on the "accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior" view, as opposed to the idea of being true to God through living by basic moral principles (which I find to be well represented in Matthew).
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. true..
However, I like John because it has Jesus stating over and over that he is here to teach people to love each other and also he predicts that people, even if they claim to belong to the church, will be killed because they are different.
John 15:18 "If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me before it hated you"
I understand that to mean that Jesus KNOWS people are going to be hated for who they are (e.g., blacks, gays, etc), and he is sad because of that. I interpret John to be showing Jesus in a very accepting light....
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roughsatori Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. "God is Love" (John 3:16) Is the best summation of Christianity
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 02:41 PM by roughsatori
I have ever read.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I've actually always had a different take on John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have life everlasting.

My interpretation of this has always been more in the vein of the need to accept Christ as the Son of God and savior. And that has always been just about my biggest beef with mainstream Christianity.

However, I guess the alternate take on it could be that God was talking about him/herself in this passage, and that it is the recognition that God is nothing less than the source of all life. And that is MUCH more in line with the way that my spirituality has developed.
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roughsatori Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. 1John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
That is the quote. But yes the other quote could be looked at as the proof or metaphor of love.

Also, in the Apocrypha (I can't remember where exactly right now) it is said that John lived to a very old age. He went to live in a cave like a hermit and when he was sought out to teach of Jesus he would simply say: "Love one another." "Love one another" is more direct and clear then even "God is Love."
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beanball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Amen brother
one of the problems hateful men and women sometime use the bible as justification for their UNGODLY acts,just as others wrap themselves in the flag inorder to justify UNGODLY acts,My bible tell me that I should get knowledge and with that knowledge get understanding.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Perhaps I need to go back and re-read it again...
The last time I really spent any time reading my bible was when I was becoming increasingly disillusioned with mainstream Christianity, before I switched over to UU.

But you are absolutely correct in pointing out those messages. Perhaps I was just a little too blinded by my own disillusionment over evangelism to see anything else.... :shrug:
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I understand
Hell, I'm an atheist.
But I find the figure of Jesus to be utterly inspirational, a symbol of what we should all try to be- love people no matter what they do back to you. Take mercy on your enemies. Lift the poor up.
People forget that Jesus also said the rich will not enter heaven...which I find amusing :)
People focus so much time trying to find out who to hate. Often, IMO, they completely miss the point of Jesus: no matter what happens, no matter who you are, Jesus died for the salvation of EVERYONE ON EARTH. He did NOT say "just Christians, Jews, whites..".
And yes, if there was a God, God would be pure, pure love.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. We all have things revealed to us in different ways...
But I do have to say that I agree with your take on Christ. In fact, that is the main reason I left mainstream Christianity and became a UU -- because the emphasis, even in liberal Presbyterian churches, was on Christ the savior. I came around to seeing the importance of Christ as being much, much more about how we live our LIFE.

And yes, if there was a God, God would be pure, pure love.

Like I said, things are revealed to us in different ways. I'll just say that, in the way that things have been revealed to me in my life, I have come to realize that God is a purer love than any of us can possibly imagine on earth.
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I agree with you about the whole salvation thing, I joined a Unity church
I also have been reading "A Course in Miracles", which basically puts it that forgiveness of others is key to your own inner peace. The UCC doesn't emphasize saving you from your sins, either, and they are a traditional protestant church. I was raised in the UCC and never once heard the terms hell, antichrist, satan, etc. in a sermon or a Sunday school class. We did have one nutty teacher who was big on the stories about Abraham almost sacrificing Isaac and Lot's wife being turned into a pillar of salt, but she was the exception, not the rule.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. you might check out Thomas
available now. It was not included in the Bible, probably because it was more empowering to the individual in it's general tone.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. The reason the Secret (Thomas) Gospel was excluded, IMO, is...
that it has a very intriguing story about Jesus coming upon a young man all dressed in white whose beauty was stunning and who Jesus befriended and spend 7 days and nights with. This is supposedly the same person alluded to in the story about Judas betraying Jesus.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Actually, it's Mark with the original short ending
But I quibble. One of my favorite passages in the Christian Testament is John 9, where a man blind from birth is brought before Jesus. Folks want to know who sinned, the man or his parents, such that he was struck blind? (The obvious implication is that the blindness is a curse from God.) If it was the parents, why did God punish the son? And how could the son have sinned before he was born?

Jesus doesn't address the question, but heals the man of his blindness. He says that the man is blind so that the power and glory of God can be made clear to the larger society. The question of who sinned is a wrong question, and takes focus away from where it should be. Let God render whatever judgments might need to be made; our duty is to restore the community and learn how to live together.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It's not a quibble, it's a valid correction.
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 02:31 PM by IrateCitizen
ON EDIT: That's a pretty good selection from John, though.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Well, it may be a valid correction
But I'm just too anal about such things for my own good. :hi:
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Sephirstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. By your rationale...
Is God using people like Fred Phelps or Strom Thurmond as caricatures to the evil power of hate, so that we may realise the glory and good that is love, mercy, and compassion?

Such people must have unwittingly granted permission to God to use their absurd bigotry to accomplish the opposite of the hate they spread to the world.

Or maybe I'm just too tired.
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skypilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I'm not getting sucked into Bible prophecy
I just thought it was a cool passage to come across at random. You have to admit, it does have a certain resonance considering the current occupant of the White House.
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RobertFrancisK Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. Marc has some incredible passages
A lot that can be used to argue against "religious" conservatives. "Leave what is Cesars to Cesar and what is God's to God" can counter the prayer in school arguement. And there are a lot of anti-establishment, anti-wealth passages.
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roughsatori Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. Your post reminds me of Bibliomancy: using books for divination
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 02:44 PM by roughsatori
Many use the Bible that way. There are various techniques. One is to ask a question then to open a book at random and read. One uses one's mind to discover the correlations and guidance that may be found in the text. Some look at using the Bible in this manner as a way of having your question answered by "God." (Some have derided bibliomancy as an "Occult" practise.)Others look at it from a Jungian perspective: the collective unconscious will inform your choice since there really is "no such thing as an accident." Jung taught that, and quantum physics seems to be indicating he was right in regards the mechanics of existence, not just in a mystical way.

I do sometimes think that the Torah, Gospels, Sutras, Upanishads, etc. are rich repositories of the collective unconscious. So yes, I agree that there may be much in those texts that foreshadows or describes how evil works in the world, and that would include the snake that Bush* and his kind are.
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skypilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Well, here's hoping...
...that the collective unconscious, the mechanics of existence, or whatever, just gave me some scoop today.
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Tyler Durden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. NOPE. You're ALL wrong!
1 Corinthians, Chapter 13:1-13 (from the King James)


Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,
and have not charity, I am become sounding brass, or
a tinkling cymbal.


And though I have prophecy, and understand
all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all
faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not
charity, I am nothing.


And though I bestow all my goods to feed , and
though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity,
it profiteth me nothing.


Charity suffereth long, is kind; charity envieth not;
charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,


Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is
not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;


Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;


Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things,
endureth all things.


Charity never faileth: but whether prophecies,
they shall fail; whether tongues, they shall
cease; whether knowledge, it shall vanish away.


For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.


But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in
part shall be done away.


When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a
child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put
away childish things.


For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to
face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also
I am known.


And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the
greatest of these charity.


That could have been written by any genius of good will. Just happens to be in the Bible.
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LEW Donating Member (809 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Beautiful passage
and very fitting. Should send to the pResident....
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Paul's very best. But why are we all wrong? n/t
.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. There is a lot in the Bible that could be seen as ...
prophetic. think it is pretty darn cool tha tyou opened up to that particular passage. It's happened to me before, but the clarity of that one is unique.

For those that don't believe in God, (BTW, I am a Christian), the Bible CAN be a wonderful source of information and moral guidance. The big thing the Fundie's and the 'Christian' RWnuts fail to see, is that the Bible must be taken in context. They pick and choose the verses they want, and allow the rest of the lesson to wither on the vine.

If these people were serious about being, "Biblically Correct", they would have to take EVERYTHING literally. That means a return to slavery, stoning, (for a myriad of offenses), gouging out eyes, ripping out tongues, mass slaughter, dashing babies heads against the walls of a building. (Damn, sounds like neo-cons already)!

They choose what fits their agenda, and that reflects out that ALL Christians are like they are; (which is incedibly far from the truth). Instead, I find it far better, to follow what Jesus said, and at least TRY to walk the walk.

Remember, "seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened for you". We are told to look for answers, not suppose that we have all of the answers.

:kick:
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JewelDigger Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Ehm, I'm not a biblical scholar by any means
but when you write this paragraph especially:

If these people were serious about being, "Biblically Correct", they would have to take EVERYTHING literally. That means a return to slavery, stoning, (for a myriad of offenses), gouging out eyes, ripping out tongues, mass slaughter, dashing babies heads against the walls of a building.

I wonder if you understand the concept that the Old Testament was the 'original covenant/contract' that God made with people. You state that you're a 'Christian', which means that you believe that Jesus was/is 'the Christ' - the anointed one - the one who was prophesied in the Old Testament.

With Jesus's arrival and fulfillment of the OT prophesy's, the Old Testament covenant/contract was fulfilled/finished/ended/over - it wasn't torn up and thrown away, it's COMPLETE.

God made a New Covenant/contract with people which is based on 'grace', which is totally a gift from God; a person can't EARN it; it is freely given by God (free meaning 'God doesn't have to give it and there are 'no strings attached' for people who accept this) - not 'the law' (as is particularly laid out in Leviticus)

So, people who go by the 'law rules' of the OT, or suggest that people should go by them, don't understand that that's completed and 'over'. People aren't required to go by those rules anymore.

While the OT 'law rules' aren't necessarily 'wrong', Jesus said that 'if we love God with our whole hearts, souls, and minds' and 'love others as ourselves' we will be doing all everything of the Old and New Testament. (<----- that's a bad paraphrase - can't quickly find the exact passage - see, I told you I wasn't a 'scholar')
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. But that was what I meant by being 'pick andchoose'...
as far the Fundies are concerned, they do not care about the covenant being being fulfilled, ("I am not here to change the law, but to fulfill it), thereby breaking that covenant. As far as they are concerned, it is all melded into one, therefore the hatred of gays and women, as well as anything else that is mentioned in the OT as being 'despicable'.

They use the OT to validate their fears.

What Christ mentions as far as sins go, hypocrisy takes the others on by about 4 to one. That should tell them something, but it falls on dead ears.

:kick:
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JewelDigger Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
28. WOW!
This sure got on 'page 4' of GD 'real quick'!!!!
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Sephirstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
31. Rove?
...
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Dob Bole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
32. Thanks
I'll be using that verse.
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