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If Arnold wins, should NorCal seek 2 states?

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dkamin Donating Member (283 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:38 AM
Original message
If Arnold wins, should NorCal seek 2 states?
NorCal and SoCal are basically like 2 states anyways. NorCal is progressive, high-tech, highly educated, without any significant diversity issues. SoCal has serious diversity problems, with ethnic ghettoes and rife and strident racial divisions; it's much more conservative, it's much more low-tech.

If the SoCal GOP bastards can hijack my state, I don't want them to be part of my state anymore.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think California has grown too big for a state
It's larger than most countries. Splitting CA into two makes sense to me. Heck the decit will be halved in the process! (4 Billion each!)

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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
2. Hey wait a minute!
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 11:41 AM by ronnykmarshall
So just throw us liberals in the southland out like trash??

Nice unity.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. yeah, I agree
they've logically been 2 different states for years... they should split, with San Francisco as the capitol. :-)
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
4. it's faster and easier to just recall the groping nazi.
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
5. YOUR State?
Uh, don't you live in NYC??

Sorry but this holier than thou 'tude coming from Northern Cal or anyone outside the state pisses me off.

I lived in SF, so please don't even start.
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dkamin Donating Member (283 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. yes
i'm from norcal, i'm out in nyc for another year, and then back to norcal.

so i consider it my state.

didn't want to come off as holier than anyone. but realistically, the repubs have a stranglehold on socal, and the progressives have a stranglehold on norcal.

the cal budget problems wouldn't be so bad if the repubs from socal hadn't held up the budget.

the cal budget problems wouldn't be so bad if the repubs from socal hadn't passed prop 13.

and so on.

socal republican dominance is holding back norcal.

no disrespect intended. just what i perceive to be the facts.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Go Ronny!!
:-)

this is one of my pet peeves!
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Right on Nini.
Having lived in SF, I got so sick of the anti-SoCal feelings. I don't care how much the previous poster tries to spin it .... 'tude is 'tude and it's just damn rude!
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dkamin Donating Member (283 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. whatever
i don't understand your position. i don't have any problems with PEOPLE from SoCal. i have major problems with the policy directions that SoCal takes NorCal in.

California is a behemoth state right now, and what you have is a culture war in it between the South and the North.

as for 'tude, you're the one spinning the 'tude. i'm stating that i think NorCal and SoCal are so fundamentally different that, given the size of Cal, they should split in 2. especially if SoCal can somehow get Arnie elected.

it's pretty clear that NorCal is going to go overwhelmingly against Arnie as they do every Republican. the whole anti-affirmative action thing, the anti-immigration thing, the anti-tax thing, they all originated from SoCal. to deny that is to spin the facts.

and yes, i will say it, and be proud to say it. this country would be a better place if orange county didn't exist. period. and i'll point to its congressmen as exhibit 1.
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Again
So with this suggestion of spliting the state, you're still basically saying to hell with us in SoCal.

I loved your line of how SoCal is "holding back NoCal". Yeah, two female Democratic Senators and twice elected Democratic Governor. Yeah SoCal is just pushing the state back into the dark ages aren't we?

Talk about spin.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Henry Waxman is from down here and he is a dem and awesome
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 12:29 PM by nini
L.A. has a democratic mayor.. Most city councils members and US House members are dems

we helped put two democratic senators in office

etc...

yep, we're holding you back alright.

:eyes:



on edit: replied to the wrong thread .. but you get my drift :-)
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Waxman is my Rep!
One of the few to stand up and tell it like it is towards Bush. He and Barbara Lee are two jems from California.

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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I love his guts....
especially when he puts it to W...

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RandomUser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
6. No
States shouldn't be split just because there's a disparity in politics. This is how change happens. A red state can change to blue, or a blue state can change to red. And these political climate changes will be smoothed out with time.

Upstate New York is republican-leaning, and NYC is 5 to 1 Democratic, but that doesn't mean NYC should become it's own state.
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RandomUser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Ditto for Florida
You've got the conservatives in the panhandle and liberals south. Almost all states have a mishmash of politics.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
9. Please show proof of all these statements..
Otherwise, I will chalk this up to another show of arrogance from the North.

I do NOT GET this superiority thing with you people. It amazes me you are at war with us when most people down here don't even know why or how deep the hate is. It's like it's cool to bash on SoCal so everyone does it.

There are good AND bad in all parts of this state. Accept it - get over it.




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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. It's like talking to a wall, Nini.
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 12:13 PM by ronnykmarshall
I guess with the recall coming to an end, it's time for the SoCal bashing to start.

These rants just show how we tend to eat our own. I love San Francisco and spent 14 of the best years in my life there. But even in SF, there is no shortage of short sidedness and bigotry towards people. In this case, Southern Californians.
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Snellius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:54 AM
Original message
They've been talking about this for decades
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 12:43 PM by Snellius
I grew up in Northern California when the animosity between the sophisticated "City" and LALA Land was pretty strong. SF was always libertine and LA was Birch central. But since the 60s it's not so easy to separate. There are strong conservative bastions in the north, especially in the Valley, and progressive enclaves in the south. The thing to remember about California is that most Californians are from somewhere else. California has always been a kind of fantasy creation of what those who flee there want it to be.
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Wazzup Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
11. IF Arnie wins...
...or even if he doesn't he'll have sexual battery charges brought against him. A recall pettition will surely follow any indictment.

This recall fiasco is an embarrasment to our state...especialy if Arnie wins.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. Hi Wazzup!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
14. Those comparisons don't hold up to scrutiny
NorCal and SoCal are basically like 2 states anyways.

Yes, but not necessarily in the ways that you mention.

NorCal is progressive, high-tech, highly educated, without any significant diversity issues. SoCal has serious diversity problems, with ethnic ghettoes and rife and strident racial divisions; it's much more conservative, it's much more low-tech.


Diversity problems? Come again? There is more diversity in S. California than anywhere I have ever been in my life, and that's a good part of everywhere.

Ethnic ghettos? Ever been to Oakland? How about E. Salinas? N. Cal has the same thing in this respect as S. Cal.

As far as high tech/low tech, there is a very large high-tech base in S. Cal, but it's not as exclusively IT-centered as N. Cal and it's spread out over a much large geographic area.
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Socal LowTech?
Ever hear of this thing called the "entertainment industry"? Know what it runs on these days? There is more high-tech in Disney's Burbank facility than left in Silicon Valley these days?
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. That's my point: S. Cal is not 'low-tech' in comparison to N. Cal
Meaning that to call one high-tech and the other low-tech is unwarranted based on the evidence.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
18. SoCal will never let it happen
Both tax dollars and water flow from Northern California to Southern California, making SoCal's very survival dependent on the presence of its northern neighbor. If we cut SoCal loose, most of their leaders know that we'd start charging them for the water (hey, we're destroying our wetlands, fisheries, and rivers so they can water their lawns, so they can darn well PAY for that water) and that they wouldn't be self sufficient tax dollar wise. They would NEVER allow that to happen.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. tax dollars flow down here?
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 12:24 PM by nini
I thought ours were going up there to fund BART?
:evilgrin:
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Nope
Between state programs and infrastructure maintenance, Southern California (roughly defined as everything south of the Merced River) consumes far more tax dollars than it generates. If the state split, the LA school system literally couldn't afford to keep its doors open.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. what are the population numbers for these areas?
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 01:46 PM by nini
I assume it is more populated down here but I honestly dont' know the numbers. If we have many more people, shouldn't spending should be in proportion ?

seems we're more crowded.

LA Unified is a whole other can of worms.. sigh
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SaintLouisBlues Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. LA: 16.3 million; Bay area: 7 million
San Diego: 2.8 million

Sacramento: 1.7 million

Fresno: .9 million

Bakersfield: .6 million

These are the California metro area populations amoung the top 50 nationally, as per the 2002 World Almanac.

Lots more people in S. Cal.

But if you split in two, you can't run out that nonsensical "if California was its own country it'd be the sixth largest economy..blah, blah, blah."
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
19. yes....
TO ARMS! TO ARMS!!

We'll establish the front from San Luis Obispo to the Sierras!
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
20. Keep LA with Norcal
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 12:29 PM by DBoon
If you insist on your provincial NorCal attitude, at least recognize that the largest county here in the south has some very fine progressive politics at all levels. Santa Monica can compete with Berzerkely any time. Even has a Green elected official. The LA mayor race was basically between a mainstream liberal (Hahn) and a progressive activist (Villaragosa). Many good solid progressive Democrats come from down here. Check out:

http://www.losangelesalmanac.com/topics/Election/el01.h...

LA County is 52.32% Democrat, 27.59% Republican. You want to split up the state based on lifestyle - say so. There is no basis for a north/south split based on politics.

If you took a few minutes away from sipping your Napa chardonnay, maybe you'd find out there are some good things happening down here.

Now if you are serious about splitting the state, I'd suggest making the "southern half" consist of San Diego, Orange, Riverside, San Bernardino, Kern, Kings, Tulare, Inyo, Fresno (home of freeperland), and maybe some other central valley counties. Keep LA, Ventura, Santa Barbara, and SLO with the "north".

Actually, just splitting San Diego and Orange counties into their own state would do the trick.

I am tired and fed up with NorCal snobs who believe everything south of Monterey is some kind of banana republic. I swear your guys are worse than New Yorkers.
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SCDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
23. Division between East and West parts of state
I was born and raised in So Cal and I think there is more a split between the west and east parts of the state.... meaning East of Sierra Nevada and west of. I just think of Fresno and Bakersfield and then up north like the communities of Chico and such... isnt Fresno home to Freeperville. I've been out of the state for about 7 years now but my whole family still resides there.
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bluefire2000 Donating Member (79 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
31. Differences are more granular than N/S
I've lived most of my 35 years in NorCal, but my family is originally from SoCal (as in since 1850), and my brother lives there now.

I can travel 45 minutes East of liberal Berkely and be in one of many very conservative--mostly working-class--places. In fact, I'd say the majority of places outside the bay area in NorCal are conservative. But if I keep going East to, say, Grass Valley, a couple hours further, and it's mostly liberal again. So, I don't think the North/South split is quite accurate, accept maybe on a very macro level.

But, the South does take all our water, and they say "The 80" instead of "Freeway 80", which is terrible!
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
32. WELL, then what about
us Democrats down in the Southern part of the state. You want to just cut us off and leave us at the mercy of the repukes who would then totally take over EVERYTHING, aw sh*t! Every election I thank God for the Democrats up north because without them we might not have Boxer and some of the other statewide Democratic office holders. Also we aren't as repuke controlled down here as we were in the past, my area has alot of repukes but we still managed to put in a Democratic Congresswoman...Jane Harman.
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