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morgan2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:53 AM
Original message
will Kucinich supporters vote for the eventual Democractic nominee?
as a Kucinich supporter I'm wondering if others will vote for the eventual nominee. I don't think I would support any of them except Mosley Braun and Sharpton.
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. Why is that? Whate are AS and CMB's positions...
That aren't shared by other candidates? I'm just curious because it doesn't seem like those two have any positions that are radically different than most of the other candidates, or at the very least Dean.
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morgan2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. I think there is a large philosophical difference
None of the other candidates have even attempted to question big business as being a great thing for society. An example would be Kucinich/Mosel Braun are the only candidates bold enough to propose getting profit out of health care. The other candidates health care proposals are just subsidies to the health care industry.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. You are incorrect, morgan2
Re: big business


{Guy in the audience: Give em hell, Howard!}

Harry Truman used to say, {when} people used to say, Give em hell, Harry, hed say, I dont give them hell, I just tell the truth and Republicans think its hell. We need a balanced budget in this country so were going to have jobs in America again to invest in America. No Republican president has balanced the budget in 34 years in this country. If you want to trust the federal government with your hard-earned money, you had better vote for a Democrat, because the Republicans cant handle money. You know, the presidents given a lot of our tax dollars away to big corporations, but I think we better change our policy, because those corporations take our jobs elsewhere. What we need in this country is an investment policy for small businesses. Small businesses dont pay as well as big businesses, their fringe benefits arent as good, but they stay in their own community. We need jobs in America. We need to invest in America. Three trillion dollars. Can you imagine, if we could have taken some of that money, to rebuild our roads and our bridges, and our schools, and broadband telecommunications in the most rural parts of America so they can have information jobs as well, and invest in renewable energy and rebuilding the grid, so we can put people to work, and save the environment, and save our national security? We can do better than this. We need jobs, Mr. President, not empty promises and $3 trillion of our tax money going to your friends who are writing you those $2,000 checks to finance your campaign. We can do better than that.

http://www.thestranger.com/2003-08-28/dean_speech.html


Governor Dean, about those high earners, the nonpartisan Center on Budget and Policy Priorities has suggested using revenue from the estate tax as a progressive way to help bolster Social Security. Should wealthy Americans be contributing more to Social Security?

MR. DEAN: What wealthy Americans should be doing is paying their fair share of the payroll tax. Social Security cannot survive -- (scattered applause) -- on its present track. And the solution to that is simply to make wage-earners above $85,000 subject to the payroll tax, and that will cure the Social Security ills, if we can change presidents.

Now, you asked about pensions. A few days ago we were in San Francisco talking to the United Food & Commercial Workers. (Scattered cheers.) A gentleman over here named Larry Allen, who is a produce clerk at Wal-Mart in Henderson, Texas, took two days of his vacation to come to San Francisco for the UFCW forum. When he went back, he was fired for violating the no-solicitation clause.

If you want to protect pensions, the way to do that is to organize. And if you want to organize at places like Wal-Mart, we'd better have card check. We'd better ban mandatory compulsory meetings. We'd better fire the National Labor Relations Board, because that's how you protect working people in this country. (Scattered applause.)

And we ought to have independent pension funds that are no longer controlled by corporations. It would solve two problems. First of all, major corporations going out the door would not be raiding the pension funds in order to try to keep their company afloat. That money doesn't belong to the corporations. It belongs to the people in whose trust it was set aside.

And secondly, it would contribute to portable pensions so that if you move from job to job to job, you still get your pension. You don't have to worry about vesting anymore. We need complete pension reform in this country, and we need to start by making unions strong enough to demand it.

http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/politics/candidate...

Guest Post by Howard Dean

The post below is from Governor Howard Dean. You can check out the crossposting and commentary at www.blogforamerica.com and read more about Howard Dean at www.deanforamerica.com . Thanks!-- Matt, Zephyr and Nicco, Dean Internet Team

posted by { Zephyr Teachout } on { Jul 14 03 at 3:58 PM } to { presidential politics } { 31 comments }

Its been a busy day, but its great to blog here on Larry Lessigs blog.

Ill be writing all week, but if theres a day I cant make it, Joe Trippi, my campaign manager, will fill in for me. Thank you Professor Lessig for inviting me.

The Internet might soon be the last place where open dialogue occurs. One of the most dangerous things that has happened in the past few years is the deregulation of media ownership rules that began in 1996. Michael Powell and the Bush FCC are continuing that assault today (see the June 2nd ruling).

The danger of relaxing media ownership rules became clear to me when I saw what happened with the Dixie Chicks. But theres an even bigger danger in the future, on the Internet. The FCC recently ruled that cable and phone based broadband providers be classified as information rather than telecommunications services. This is the first step in a process that could allow Internet providers to arbitrarily limit the content that users can access. The phone and cable industries could have the power to discriminate against content that they dont control or-- even worse-- simply dont like.

The media conglomerates now dominate almost half of the markets around the country, meaning Americans get less independent and frequently less dependable news, views and information. James Madison and Thomas Jefferson spoke of the fear that economic power would one day try to seize political power. No consolidated economic power has more opportunity to do this than the consolidated power of media.


posted by { Howard Dean } on { Jul 14 03 at 3:26 PM } to { } { 198 comments }
http://www.lessig.org/blog/archives/2003_07.shtml

On health care (Note, it is my understanding that Rep. Gephardt supports single payer. You did not mention him.):

For a year now, I have been traveling this country advocating a repeal of Bush's tax cuts so that we can provide universal healthcare and restore fiscal discipline. Many have questioned the political wisdom of challenging the president on politically popular tax cuts.

I believe, however, that given a choice between having health insurance or keeping all of the Bush's tax cuts in place, most Americans will choose health insurance. My plan will cost $88.3 billion -- less than half of the president's tax cut -- with money left over to pay down the deficits run up by this administration.

My plan consists of four major components.

First, and most important, in order to extend health coverage to every uninsured child and young adult up to age 25, we'll redefine and expand two essential federal and state programs -- Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. Right now, they only offer coverage to children from lower-income families. Under my plan, we cover all kids and young adults up to age 25 -- middle income as well as lower income. This aspect of my plan will give 11.5 million more kids and young adults access to the healthcare they need.

Second, we'll give a leg up to working families struggling to afford health insurance. Adults earning up to 185% of the poverty level -- $16,613 -- will be eligible for coverage through the already existing Children Health Insurance Program. By doing this, an additional 11.8 million people will have access to the care they need.

Many working families have incomes that put them beyond the help offered by government programs. But this doesn't mean they have viable options for healthcare. We'll establish an affordable health insurance plan people can buy into, providing coverage nearly identical to what members of Congress and federal employees receive.

To cushion the costs, we'll also offer a significant tax credit to those with high premium costs. By offering this help, another 5.5 million adults will have access to care.

Third, we need to recognize that one key to a healthy America is making healthcare affordable to small businesses.We shouldn't turn our back on the employer-based system we have now, but neither should we simply throw money at it. We need to modernize the system so employers will have an option beyond passing rising costs on to workers or bailing out of the system entirely. Fortunately, we have a model of efficient, affordable and user-friendly healthcare coverage: the federal employee health system.

With the plan I've put forth to the American people, we'll organize a system nearly identical to the one federal workers and members of Congress enjoy. And we'll enable all employers with less than 50 workers to join it at rates lower than are currently available to these companies -- provided they insure their work force. I'll also offer employers a deal: The federal government will pick up 70% of COBRA premiums for employees transitioning out of their jobs, but we'll expect employers to pay the cost of extending coverage for an additional two months. These two months are often the difference between workers finding the health coverage they need, or joining the ranks of the uninsured.

Finally, to ensure that the maximum number of American men, women and children have access to healthcare, we must address corporate responsibility. There are many corporations that could provide healthcare to their employees but choose not to. The final element of this plan is a clear, strong message to corporate America that providing health coverage is fundamental to being a good corporate citizen. I look at business tax deductions as part of a compact between American taxpayers and corporate America. We give businesses certain benefits, and expect them to live up to certain responsibilities.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=...

The plan will cost an estimated, "$88.3 billion". This is paid for from some of the money saved by repealing Bush's tax cuts.

The Dean proposal expands Medicaid and CHIP to ages 25 and under. CHIP is expanded to adults earning up to "185% of the poverty level" (currently, $16,613).

For the "capitalist" half of the Dean plan: Folks with high health premium costs recived "a significant tax credit" to cushion the costs. The current "employer-based system" in use now will be modernized by upgrading it to the same healthcare coverage that "federal workers and members of Congress" have available to them.

Small buisnesses of less than 50 workers get lower rates than their larger competitors. Employers pick up the tab for 2 months in between jobs, but the costs of the COBRA premiums for those 2 months are subsidized, at 70%, by the federal government for employers. Corporations will receive "business tax deductions" as an incentive for supplying health care to their employees.
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morgan2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Maybe I overstated
but I dont believe that I am wrong. Democrats, in the Clinton legacy, have been better than Bush, but they have still sucked up to big business. Clinton's presidency allowed all the Enron type scandals to occur. Dean I'm a bit iffy on.. not to sure if I would support him, but the rest of the field seem very much along the lines with Clinton to me.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
57. I think....
I could be wrong on this, but I think you're hoping for a perfect world that will eliminate private sector interests from the political process. It ain't gonna happen. Period.

And the candidate that exactly fits your beliefs is extremely unlikely, no matter what your belief system is. Hell, most of the candidates on both sides have family members that disagree with them. You're hoping for something that just doesn't exist.

So you can do three things. 1) You can pout, vote for someone that has zero chance of winning but most accurately represents your views and wind up stuck with someone that couldn't be further from your value system, thus ensuring that NONE of the issues you feel are important will be addressed. 2) You can vote for the guy that has a legit chance that is most closely aligned to your beliefs, and while not quite all of your concerns are addressed, at least most of them are and the world doesn't quite end yet. Or 3) You can get off your ass and start working for election reform to find a system where third parties are actually given a chance.
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morgan2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. im not hoping for a perfect world just a better one
Bush is a bump in the road and will be removed no matter what I do. My state is by no means a swing state, so I think it would be more beneficial to vote for who I agree with.
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xJlM Donating Member (955 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm a Kucinich supporter first, but a Democrat second.
I've been a democrat a lot longer than I've even heard of DK. That doesn't mean I'm going to like voting for some of the choices I may have. But I am, above all else, a democrat and NOT a repug.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Really? I'm a democrat FIRST and a backer of my candidate SECOND...
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xJlM Donating Member (955 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Difference of opinion?
I understand where you're coming from, but I have to look at what the Democratic party did for me in 2002. I want some change, and I have a little trouble getting enthusiastic about the same old shit.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
3. Why do you ask?
Do you have any info to suggest that Kucinich supporters are any more or less likely to support the eventual Dem nominee?
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clar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Presumably the
reason this person started this thread is because they want to find out.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Ya' think?
And do you really think that "because" is an answer?
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
4. I'm not a Kucinich supporter
But I am fairly certain that Kucinich supporters will back the Democratic ticket. There may be a few who don't, but they probably were a few who came to the Democratic party because of Kucinich. I can't blame them for not voting. I think that is true for a lot of different candidates. They have a small contingent of such die hard supporters, partisan warriors, etc. that if the candidate doesn't get the nod, they have villified the opposition so much they can't bring themselves to vote him anyone but their guy.

I haven't seen Kucinich supporters do that too much, so I don't think most will have a problem voting for someone else.
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
5. Depends...
on who the eventual nominee is and what s/he has to say.

There's no way that I'd vote for Bush, but it is possible to vote for Senators and Representatives, local people, etc. and just leave the space blank by the President.

There's time to decide and listen to each of the candidates between now and the convention and between now and November, 2004. As we have seen, a lot can happen in the nation between now and then also.

I hope that we will also focus on getting a Democratic majority in both houses of Congress, because no matter who is in the White House, if Congress blocks every good bill that person proposes, s/he is going to be hamstrung.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
6. I will
probably
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Cheesehead Donating Member (344 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
9. Of course I will
Even those of us idealistic enough to work very hard for Kucinich and his platform have to realize that ABB is the bottom line.

By the convention we will hopefully have made our point that politics as usual is not centrist but well to the right of center and unfair to the "common men" amongst us. As admirable a person as Dennis is, and as good a President as he would be, the bottom line is to make known the scope of the demand for Progressive reform among voters.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
10. I suspect that most DK supporters WILL support the nominee
I've only found a very small number who have indicated that they won't; the vast majority of DK's supporters are loyal Democrats, first and foremost. :thumbsup:
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
67. Thank you for realizing that
I appreciate it. Still Kucinich is my first choice for damn good reasons.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
12. Not the ones who are not really DK supporters
Many Greens are using DK soley to be able to say the following to justify their eventual support of Ralphie: "I wanted to be a democrat but the only real democrat didn't win. Now my conscience dictates I vote for Nader."



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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Exactly!
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Sadly, ...
... I fear you are correct. The Green's seem to be saying "We will come back *if and only if* you nominate Kucinich". I will not be blackmailed in this manner, and if that is their position, then I say "Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out, folks."
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. BUH-bye
:hi:
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roughsatori Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
64. The new democrats want to kiss repuke ass for votes
but are happy to say goog-bye to Green party members. I think that attitude says more about why the Democratic party has become so weak, then it does about the Green Party voters. (I have only voted Democrat but this will be my last time--unless Clark gets the nomination, then I will already have voted for my last Dem when I voted Gore
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #64
75. I've noticed this too, roughsartori
And it is why this 30 year Democrat is out of the party. The "mainstream" dems want those "center" votes and those "centrist republicans", but shit on progressives and leftists. Well, after selwynn's little tirade on that other post, I'm rethinking my committment to the dem candidate in '04. I mean, how much of this is one supposed to take? The Dem. party really doesn't mind if all the leftists and progressives walk? Really? Then good luck in '04.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
42. As a disgruntled(formerly long time)Dem turned Green,
I would say that the party is damn lucky that I'm even considering a Dem candidate, much less willing to vote for him. After the massive rightward/corporate drift of the Clinton years, and the spineless debacle that the '00 election turned out to be, to find myself looking to vote in the Dem primary, much less for a Dem is a miracle.

Yes, I support Kucinich, for I see him as the only Dem candidate that I agree with and could vote for. And yes, if he doesn't get the Dem nod I'll be voting Green.

When the Democratic party drifted rightward and started pandering to the corporate dollar they lost any claim on mine or many others' loyalty and vote.
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Mel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
24. I don't think so
I don't agree with you. I think some of the Greens that support DK now where disgruntled Democrats that went Green in the last pResidental election because they believe the Democratic party has moved to much to the center.
It isn't about Nader it's about ideals and what people want. DK represents for me what democrats are all about and why I usually vote for democrats and yes I will vote for a Green but not in the upcoming Presidental Election.

Let us, Never forget that the USSC selected Bush* and Gore WON!

One I won't vote for is Joe sorry to say it but he won't work for me and I don't agree with him on issues that are most important to me I don't want to go in his direction.
I honestly don't think I will have to worry about that I don't see him getting the nomination. Am not real excited about Clark but I haven't closed my mind on him either. Joe, is about the only one I've made my decision on.

I tell you this much the Green bashing isn't going to get us anywhere we have got stop the BFEE!
I refuse to bash Greens they are more on our side than ANY Repuke out there.
Greens are NOT my enemy Pukes are!
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morgan2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. people should vote for what person running they agree with not a party
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Yes, and Karl Rove will be having this point made all over the internet
I wonder how much of that $250MM Republican war chest will be going to fund LW candidates in the next election?

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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. Rubbish. Name 2 of them here
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
60. Nader's not running n/t
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CheshireCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
15. I am a Kucinich supporter
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 10:22 AM by CheshireCat
and I will vote for the Democratic candidate for President. I only hope that it is not Joe Lieberman, because I would find it extremely hard to vote for him.

I know many Greens that are supporting Kucinich. Most of them agree that this is not the election for "voting your ideals". First and foremost, W MUST go. Without his defeat, our democracy (what's left of it) will wither and there may not be an election in 2008.

However, I am glad Kucinich is in the race. Opinions of those of us on the far-left have not had our stand on the issues broadcast in the media for a generation. Many young people are hearing these ideas for the first time.

No matter what happens, I am thankful to DK for getting these ideas showcased.

BTW, in SC, there are many Greens supporting Howard Dean. There are still a few who will never vote Democratic, but most see that no progress can be made until W is OUT!
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rbnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
16. I will vote for the Democrat!!! (nt)
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
18. Yes.
n/t
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Rainbowreflect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
20. I can only speak for myself, but I will.
Love Kucinich, but want bush out of office even more.
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shirlden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Yep.....love Dennis, but
ABB is the way to go.

:hug:
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
21. I know that one of them will
...I can't speak for the other six.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
70. real cute neder
Theres a lot more than you think. And yes I would, I happen to be too young though.
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
23. depends depends depends depends
I would love to see DK get the nomination, but I know that's not reasonable, so I can expect a more corporatist/status quo/business as usual candidate to get the nod.

Since I live in a Bush state (KY) where his popularity his higher than the national average, I have the luxury of considering third party candidates. As a small d democrat, I am going to vote for the candidate that best represents my views and the clearest alternative to Bush--that may not necesarily be a large D Democrat. But if the race here is too close to call, I likely vote for the Dem candidate, even though I don't really care for any of the front runners at this time. The system is so screwed up that the whole voting/selecting/electing process has become little more than a charade anyway. Still, I have to try to keep a little hope.
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
26. I'm a DK supporter who definitely won't vote for any other Dem (except
AS). In fact, if the nominee is Clark, I'll work energetically against the Dem ticket & for a 3rd party.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. What state do you live in? (nt)
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. Calif.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Another valued Democrat from the
"We having suffered enough pain yet, we must continue the flogging until we destroy ourselves" wing of the Party.

At least your honest enough to admit that you'll work for Bush's re-election. Wouldn't you be happier posting at FR?
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. I'm not a Democrat, precisely because Dems have collaborated with
Bush so supinely. It's rightwing & most "centrist" Democrats who would really fit in better over at FR - since they share so many of Bush's basic attitudes.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
78. Right.....so what's your point posting here?
Why don't you head over to FR and tell them what wussies the Dems are...I'm sure you'd find a willing audience for this crap.

Either you're afraid to get your squeaky clean hands dirty dealing in the trenches and compromising your perfect ideals or your not willing to confront the real problem in our society today, the fascists that have taken over our democracy today.

Either way, you'd rather carp from the sidelines..."no fault" politics...no one can never blame RichM because he'll never take sides.

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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. Don't you think...?
Don't you think that 4 more years of Bush, followed by what would likely be 8 years of Jeb Bush, is a LOT worse than 4 years under Wes Clark? Christ people, your views aren't that radically different from any of the other candidates, but they ARE radically different from Bush's. Can't you see that you're only hurting your own cause????
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morgan2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. nope
whats worse four more years of a terrible president or a lifetime of crappy presidents? If the Democrats don't offer me a candidate I could support they wont get my vote, its as simple as that.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #41
54. Actually 4 more years of Bush is worse
Bush has done more to destroy this country than any president democrat or republican in history. Not using ANY possible means to remove him from power is morally reprehensible.

Remember this when the nation is totally and utterly driven into the ground in such a way that we never again are "great." Remember it when all agree that it was Bush that brought the downfall of this republic. Remember, and feel ashamed of yourself.
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #37
49. No, I don't think so.
I think Kucinich is radically different from Clark, & that the difference between the two is actually greater than the difference between Clark & Bush. The difference between Clark & Bush is mostly superficial. If Clark wins, it's not a serious setback to the rightwing. Rather, it's a change of personalities & style, to someone else they can very happily live with. They might well even decide that they PREFER him, for a while, because Bush has introduced instability into the world. They've gained greatly from him, but are certainly aware that the hatred he arouses poses a potential threat to their interests.

The historical function of the Democratic Party is to provide the illusion of "choice," when there really is no choice. It's to provide big business with someone who looks & sounds a little different after Republican excesses have bankrupted the country -- but who won't rock the boat in any fundamental way. That is who Clark & Kerry & most of the other Democrats are.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
69. I don't think we really have a clue what Clark would be like.
Could be good, could be bad. I don't think there is any way to tell.
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twilight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. red flag warning on Clark
at least that is how I feel. Who the hell is this guy anyway and exactly which hole did he crawl out of? *grr*

:dem:
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
47. And thank you for supporting 4 more years of Bush. (nt)
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #47
59. Repeatedly hearing this un-clever phrase from Dem Party loyalists has
helped convince me that the Democratic Party is hopeless. It is composed of people, like yourself, who oversimplify serious issues & don't see the big picture.

So: Thank YOU, in your own way, for helping me to see the light.
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
65. No one is supporting 4 more years...
... and I'm not entirely happy that you choose to frame the issue this way.

I've mentioned several times in various posts that I abhor either/or thinking. It's a trap.

I truly don't believe that any Democrat needs to be ready to vote for anyone at all just to be rid of Bush. Some folks here are framing the issue as either we all unite behind the Democratic candidate whoever that candidate may be or we will be essentially giving Bush our vote.

First of all, it's entirely too soon to resign ourselves to a mediocre candidate who is not much different from Bush. That seems defeatist, at least to me. We have several candidates who are head and shoulders and more above Bush. We don't need to "settle for."

But more importantly, I think we should be asking ourselves how we can defeat Bush and at the same time install in the White House the person who will work for and fight for all our highest hopes and aspirations.

If you think that idealism hasn't got a chance in the United States... that idealism eventually has to compromise to what is "realistic" and "sensible" and "do-able," then we all might as well throw in the towel right now. We won't live long enough to see anything change.

Doesn't it make you furious that, for instance, African-Americans were freed nearly a hundred and fifty years ago and they still don't enjoy the same civil rights and human respect that European-Americans take for granted? Doesn't it absolutely frost you that the U.S. government has mismanaged and eventually lost millions of dollars that rightfully belong to individual American Indians ( Cobell v. Norton: http://www.indiantrust.com ) and now they are claiming that it will take years, if ever, to sort it all out? Aren't you really sick and tired of people who insist that "these things take time"? How much time? When people are suffering, can we really afford to tell them that we "are working on it but it will take time."

Don't you know what is happening? Some people do... read this and then substitute any "group" name for "Indians" because they do the same things to each and every group: http://www.dickshovel.com/rights.html

If I vote in 2004, I intend to vote for the person that I want to see in the White House. I don't really care if that person hasn't got a prayer of winning... I do not intend to have to tell my grandchildren that I compromised for the sake of expediency. BUT I temper that by stating that I totally have faith in the Democratic party to nominate a candidate that I can vote for with good conscience. I would really hate to lose that faith.

Don't even think about putting me in a position where I lose that faith.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. In this case, "either/or" is NOT a trap, just the truth
It's going to be either B*sh or the Democratic candidate who occupies the White House in Jan. 2005. One or the other. No third party candidate. Say what you will about "not compromising your ideals" but IF YOU LEAVE THE SPACE BLANK NEXT TO THE PRES. SPOT ON THE BALLOT, DON'T BOTHER COMING HERE TO CRY ABOUT IT WHEN B*SH HAS FOUR MORE YEARS. Just don't bother.

This is war. You can't be the Swiss this time and sit it out. Choose you this day whom you shall serve.

I'll vote Dem even if it's Lieberman, and that's saying a lot. But this country cannot survive four more years of BushCo.

Bake
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
31. Not if it's Joe Lieberman...
... not this Kucinich supporter, anyway.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. sure, but
Lieberman's not really a Democrat.
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xJlM Donating Member (955 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. My whole point about Clark
Why should I believe him? Because he says so? Let's take a look at actions.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
39. I"m a supporter of the eventual nominee
who'd vote for Kucinich.
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
40. Dennis Kucinich will vote for the Democratic Nominee...
As will the other 9 candidates who do not win the nomination.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #40
51. WWDKD?
He'd vote DEM, of course!

He's a gracious man who is adding ALOT to the campaign. The front runners are copping his ideas. DK has my support in the primary, and his supporters DESERVE to be listened to by whomever gets the nomination. DK will make sure the voices from the left are heard, because he's looking after the left-roots wing of the party. And once the next Democratic President is in power, you can bet we'll still be keeping pressure on the party.

Fellow DK supporters: Stay in the party - we'll have more influence here thru conditional support of ISSUES, but not with conditional support of the party as a whole.

What I see is a Mexican Standoff of sorts, and both sides feel they're being held hostage by their respective "wings". Both sides say "we don't need you" - but both sides do need each other. It takes two wings to fly.

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morgan2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. democratic party is using Kucinich
They love having him in the debates, but don't want him to win by any means. They hope that by having Kucinich go deep into the campaign it will bring people back into the party. Just by him being in the debates isnt gonna fool me into voting for someone I dont support. Obviously I'm not saying that they made him run, but are hoping it will benefit them.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
44. Since Dennis is the adult choice, my vote goes to Dennis
Check-off or write-in, Dennis gets my vote.

We should be viewing this as a search for an employee, not for a daddy/mommy substitute, or a spouse, or a date for the weekend, or anything else. We should be looking for someone whose record says they'll work hard for their employers, and will strive to meet our needs rather than poor-mouthing and demanding that we meet theirs.

Dennis is the adult choice, so he gets my vote.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Thank you for supporting Bush. (nt)
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #46
77. Thank you for being
such a centrist kiss ass that that the Dem party has lost it's way and pissed on the all the people who actually thought they stood for anything.
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reachout Donating Member (236 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Depends
I don't really consider my state competitive in '04. I'm almost certain it will fall to Bush by a comfortable margin. That being said, I'm willing to vote as far right as Dean before I couldn't in good conscience cast a vote for the Democratic nominee. For me, the IWR vote is a poison pill and I will never vote for any candidate for any office who cast a Yea on it. That still leaves Clark in play, but he doesn't have my support yet. I will be keeping a close eye on him over the next several months to see where he comes down on a number of issues when his back is against the wall.

I will definitely be casting for Kucinich in the primaries.
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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
74. How can you be sure Bush will win it in a comfortable margin?
when he didn't in 2000? It was only about a 3 point margin, and 2 if you add in the Nader vote in. It's VERY MUCH in play. How's the job market?
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Thanks
for your condescending remarks. Apparently, if I want to be an adult, I have to vote for someone that doesn't represent my views. This is taking one out of Bush's "if you don't agree with me, you're unpatriotic" playbook. Congrats - you're a fascist!
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
45. I was going to ask why WOULDN'T we support the nominee...
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 12:38 PM by Selwynn
But then I read the body of your post and I guess that is in question for you.

I'm not going to point any kind of finger at you. I'll only speak for myself. I'm a Kucinich supporter. Well I don't know if that's really true. If I had my way, Kucinich would be President, but I also believe there is no chance, so much so that I've been looking at other candidates I believe are more viable. So maybe that doesn't make me a "supporter."

At any rate, for me personally - it is morally reprehensible to let ideology of politics cloud one simple truth -- Bush and his regime are some of the most evil and vile people ever to hold political office, and I'm not sure our Republic can handle four more years of that without serious and lasting effects. Because of that I will support whichever opposition candidate has the best chance of beating Bush.

If we ran some loser who was polling at 15%, and the Republicans happened to run a challenge candidate to Bush who was polling high enough to show a real chance to beating Bush - I'd vote for the republican. That's because I believe Bush and his cohorts are particularly bad, particularly extreme. Their not just Republicans, they're ignorant arrogance fanatical extremists as well as terrorists by every definition that matters.

I believe I have a moral duty to do everything I possibly can to get Bush out of office, and I'll use whatever tactic I have at my disposal. I will not vote stand on some ideological principle - not this time. I will not vote for some third party candidate with no chance of being elected that pulls away liberal votes from the base just so I can say I stood on "ideological" principle. Not this time. I will not refuse to support the party's nominee simply because my guy didn't win. Not this time. Do I believe Dean or Clark are great and perfect choices? No I don't. But I believe that the Bush experience is so horrible, so devastating and so evil that I will pragmatically and strategically look for who has the best chance of beating bush and throw my complete and total support behind that person.

And I said I wasn't going to point fingers but I changed my mind. I will say that I am ashamed of any person here who wouldn't do the same. :(

This is not a "normal" election year with a "normal" incumbent president. This is like having the base sum of all evil in office, and the quibbling and bickering about which candidate should displace him from power --- the answer is ANYBODY! The first step back towards real democracy is the ousting of Bush from power. THEN, we can start fine-tuning that and voting in a more nuanced way for the candidates of subtle difference.

Sel
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Well said
I might add that I am not keen on electing a General and a novice Democrat to be President. However, I think there aren't many candidates this time around that I wouldn't consider to be an upgrade over Bush, unless Tom DeLay or Hitler (I know, I know, I'm being redundant there...) were to somehow toss their hats into the ring.
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West Coast Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
53. Why should we care whom you would support?
I don't think I've seen you around here much.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. Why should we care whom YOU support?
Just because I haven't posted here much doesn't make me any better or worse than you. How are your views more valid than mine? Hmmm?

I'm not saying you SHOULD care, nor should anyone else really care. I'm simply expressing my own humble opinion, which is the entire point for having these boards. Or are they here only to provide a place for those who've posted more than 600 times to dictate what every other Democratic Underground fan should believe?
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
55. I hate to point out the obvious
But Kucinich barely registers in most polls. I would be surprised if he received substantially more than 2% of the votes cast in the 2004 Democratic primaries. And that 2% represents an even smaller percentage of the Democrats who are likely to turn out in the 2004 general election.

It would be highly unusual, from a historical standpoint, if the Democratic nominee received substantially more than 85% of the votes of registered Democrats in the 2004 election. Indeed, I would expect someone like Kucinich, Braun or Sharpton to fall far short of that 85% level.

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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
61. Will Dean supporters? Will Clark supporters? Will Graham supporters?
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 01:21 PM by gully
What if every person who felt strongly about their candidate being 'the one' backed off in the end?

I think Dennis and his supporters deserve to be heard-long after the primary race. If his supporters 'disappear' when push comes to shove wouldn't his run for office be in vein?

Edited spelling..
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
63. Yes! Let's eat ourselves alive!
It's the only way we can win! :eyes:
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
66. I would likely but I am too young
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twilight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
68. sure, I'll vote for DK!
As he'll be the nominee after the Green party endorses him! :D



DENNIS J. KUCNINCH FOR PRESIDENT IN 2004! *our only REAL hope!*

:dem:
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
73. Yes
and hopefully it will be Kucinich. Otherwise I'll vote for whomever is endorsed. I would have no problem voting for Sharpton or Mosley-Braun and little problem voting for Edwards, Kerry or Gephardt, whom I respect despite their mistep on Iraq vote. Clark or Dean would require holding my nose as I think they are both the rot but I would likely still do it. Lieberman maybe not but not planning on have that problem.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
76. who said we are going to win?
Are we not brought together on this forum to celibrate our unity to depose evil governance, and in specific: depose the bush regime. Given the essential unity of conviction amongst all of the american left, i would vote for whomever dennis suggested.

As much of a betrayal as it may sound, Clark is my best vote to "win" and i believe the next president of the USA. Accepting the past as done and dusted, (ignoring sunk costs) we must win power, introduce fair media regulation, campaign finance reform and proportional representation and fair voting... and all the rest of the left adgenda will naturally come as the majority voice in america is untapped.

I support all democratic candidates per my agreement to join the anti-BFEE coalition. All the democratic candidates are on the same team with the rest of us... and we are going to win.
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
79. Of Course
Stupid Question
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
80. Well, that's brilliant! You LIKE living under Bushistas?
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