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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:20 AM
Original message
Where Lies California's Hope?
Friday I said that if nothing new breaks against Arnold by Monday night, then the party is over in California.

Well, here we are on Monday. I see nothing to make me any more hopeful that California will have a Blue Governor come Wednesday.

The worst thing is that for some time, I suggested Davis resign. California Dems were outraged--How could I suggest such a thing? Didn't I know this was an unethical rightwing plot, and we can't budge an inch?

Nope. Davis should have resigned when it was clear that the recall signatures would be certified. Bustamante would be in office, and there would be NO Governator in the wings.

But some Cal. Dems said NO-there's no way the signatures will add up and get certified, there isn't that much support!

Nope. Signatures added up, certified, and were quite sufficient in number.

It was suggested that some big name Dem run for California Governor. (My personal favorite idea was to have Al Gore run!) OhNo! said the same voices as before - we have great candidates right here! Bustamante is a shoe in if Davis somehow gets ousted (always said with a chuckle, as if the speaker couldn't believe anyone was naive enough to believe that Gray could lose this thing).

Well, Bustamante ran a dead dog of a campaign. I've heard him speak...who ever thopught this guy had a teflon coat? Not I.

Now I read on DU that Schwarzenegger is pulling crowds of thousands, and Davis and Bustamante - aren't.

NO, NO, say the naysayers, those must be payed extras, filling out Arnold's crowds. Sycophants catching a little celebrity stardust, they say, and nothing more.

Well, I sure as hell hope those eternally upbeat, "tell me nothing negative" voices are right, because if not, by Wednesday the country will have taken a dive to the right.

Popular opinion will be that the energy crisis in California was real, and all Davis' fault. "Bush and Cheney were right, and Californians deserved this mess," will be the mantra of the day.

So, all you who have remained aggressively upbeat throughout this recall mess, where lies our hope today?

Tell me something good, and make it believeable, ok?
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TexasPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. well, the weather looks ok
well, the urban legend is that democrats dont go to the polls in the rain... and it looks clear all across the state. Of course, i don't know if SkyNet employees are entrenched voters or not - so i'm not sure how this affects T-101.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
2. Ahem, the energy crisis in California WAS real
because of a f*cked-up bill signed by Pete Wilson, we were taken to the cleaners.

Unfortunately, Davis couldn't help find a way out. I've had it with the whiners and blamers who say it wasn't Davis' fault. Davis had no ideas and took no initiative whatsoever that he didn't absolutely have to, and it damn near bankrupted the state.

When a major league team loses, you fire the coach. I'm voting against the recall but only because I would rather have an incompetent Democrat than an incompetent Republican.
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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I think you could be wrong...
Memo Shows Enron Role in Power Crisis Energy:
"Smoking gun" document by company lawyers reveals tactics used to create electricity shortage in California, then drive up prices.

By Nancy Rivera Brooks, Thomas S. Mulligan and Tim Reiterman, Times Staff Writers
The Los Angeles Times
May 7/02


"Enron documents released Monday show the company sought to manipulate power prices in California, creating artificial shortages through the use of aggressive trading tactics during the energy crisis."

"The disclosure by federal energy regulators marks the first time that a company's own documents have provided clear evidence of market manipulation, critics said, which contributed to soaring prices and blackouts."

http://foi.missouri.edu/usenergypolicies/enronpowercris...
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Did I say energy wasn't manipulated?
It was undoubtedly manipulated; the problem is there's an excellent chance the manipulation was legal. Out-of-state power suppliers withheld their supplies creating an energy shortage. It was a bad bill that allowed them to do it in the first place, but if you subscribe to Princeton economist Paul Krugman they would either have to be "unbelievably generous or unbelievably bad businessmen" to NOT do it.

When you're ostensibly the most powerful politician in the state you take the reins, you come up with ideas, you rally support behind you, you make allegiances that will help you and your state succeed.

Davis did none of this.
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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Lets go back to what I wrote
and whty you disagreed...

here's my quote:
"Popular opinion will be that the energy crisis in California was real, and all Davis' fault. 'Bush and Cheney were right, and Californians deserved this mess,' will be the mantra of the day."

My point was that many people will assume that because Davis was toasted (if the recall passes) it must mean that Enron and other oil campanies did nothing to create this mess, and that it was all Davis' fault, which you already acknowledge is not true.

If the popular opinion supports the Enron position, Cheney and Bush are defacto winners.

You may think I'm a whiner for holding this opinion, but that is just your opinion. I'd rather see Davis win this one, Bush and Cheney get embarrassed by their stupid comments and actions during the blackouts and afterwards, and the lawsuits to succeed.

What do you hope to see?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. The California problem has very little to do
with Bush and Cheney and the idea that those morans would be embarrassed is laughable. Even if Davis were to win I wouldn't expect the political fallout to be appreciable against *'s reelection chances. And I really don't care what people think or assume. All one can do is support what he/she thinks is right and hope for some justice at the end of the day.

Arnold as governor would be a disaster. He has no clue how to raise the money we need, and claims he will not raise taxes. Perhaps we can maintain status quo until some Democrat in this state of 36 million people shows some vision (besides Barbara Boxer).
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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Little to do with Bush Inc. true...
But a loss here would embarass them, at least in private. Many Californians think this is a local issue only, everyione else shut up and stay out.

That's just wrong. If it were local, it wouldn't be the big RW conspiracy that we believe it to be. It would be just some Californians expressing their anger at Davis.

Do you really believe that Bush is not an interested, if silent, party in all of this?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. Before I waste my energy do you live here?
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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Before you waste your energy? LOL, go ahead, waste away!
If I do live in California, then what? What will you say?

If I don't, will you tell me to shut up? What good is that?

Tell you what, for the sake of this argument - let's say I don't live in California.

Regardless of where I was really born, where I got my high school and under grad degree, or where my family lives, lets say that NO, I don't live in California.

So, now, say something about what I said, not where I live. OK?
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Democrats unite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. So you think Davis should have resighned...
Just to appease the Repukes? You don't belong to any Party I know!
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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Good for me! Bad for you!
Because I belong to the Democratic Party, where people don't march in lock step! Where people can express their opinions, argue their differences, and still fight for common goals together.

If you don't know that party, then it's your loss, friend, not mine.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
9. If this recall goes through, any hope is in the sequel
There's every reason to suspect that an Ahnold victory lasts until the next recall election, which will start by March at the latest. Besides that, if the groped women pursue their allegations in court, he could be impeached. That would make Cruz Bustamonte the governor, unless I'm mistaken about Ahnold inheriting the Davis cabinet.
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jwaits1007 Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. How many Sequels?
My point is that endless recalls will paralyse the government because no one will be in office long enough to do anything, and will be spending all his or her time campaigning anyway. Power to the people sounds great, but it reminds me of the time I let my kids prepare dinner. Messy, messy, messy.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
31. Hi jwaits1007!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. I'm not 100%, but I think the recall is the only legit path
I don't believe the State has an impeachment provision.

Regardless, getting rid of Arnold may not be so easy, IF his support reaches above 40% (depends on turnout).

Better to find a way to keep him out, than to get him out.

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jwaits1007 Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. What is so bad about Ah-nold?
C'mon, the guy supports the Brady Bill and is married to the Kennedy family. How blue do you think he really is?
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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. Who can say?
But he IS wearing the other team's jersey...
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. The problem is that
arnie will be taking orders from the Bush regime and from former governor Pete Wilson. Plus the fact that he knows NOTHING about running anything except a restaurant which he didn't even run very well. arnie's beliefs in a woman's right to choose, the Brady Bill etc. will go right down the tubes when he gets in, they always do with repukes because someone else is always pulling their strings.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. he's the enron candidate and this is about Enron fucking over the state
He is liberal on some social issues but he is a republican, have no doubt about that.

BTW, I alerted your post. You might want to read skinners rules on the recall.
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jwaits1007 Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. How many sequels?
My point is that endless recalls will paralyse the government because no one will be in office long enough to do anything, and will be spending all his or her time campaigning anyway. Power to the people sounds great, but it reminds me of the time I let my kids prepare dinner. Messy, messy, messy.
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. I doubt there will be another recall
anytime soon, I don't think Californians will have the stomach or the money for another one no matter who it would remove. :hurts:
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jwaits1007 Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
10. Hope?
There is no hope for California. It doesn't matter who is Governor down there, because the problems are so big, and the different factions so deeply entrenched, that whoever is in office will get blamed, and you guys can look forward to many more recalls in the future. There is a fine line between Democracy and Anarchy. Maybe that is why we have a Republic- style government at the national level.
At the State level, the Initiative system that puts power in the hands of the people can cause problems. Face it, us lay people are not qualified to run the State. That is why we elect someone else to do it.
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:26 AM
Response to Original message
15. The momentum changed when Arnold starting running negative ads
Too bad Feinstein wouldn't let Davis run negative ads from the first day. The wimpy Democrats in California decided Davis wasn't allowed to attack Arnold, so Arnold spent at least 10 days slamming Davis in the media without a proper response. By the time Davis did respond, he was already on the defensive.

Davis should have gone on the offensive from day one and never let up.

The fact that wimpy Democrats once again won out with their "no negative" bullshit is not a good sign for our party.

Republicans care about winning, too often we care about looking like the "nice" guys.

Fight or lose, Democrats.
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jwaits1007 Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Demopubs...
When did we become a nation of party members, and cease to be a nation of citizens?

What is wrong with voting for the best candidate, regardless of party?
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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Fight!
I agree, sometimes I think that many Dems have no idea as to what kind of a cluster f*ck we have fallen in to. We often go forward as if it were the 1950s. Wrong decade, wrong tactics.

Brave new world, and all that...
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
28. negative adds lost in Pa
We won the governorship based on refusing to run attack adds. I agree that the negative adds should have been answered however.
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Arnold was ripe for attack, though
The guy has so much that needs to be exposed, from his possible underage rapes to his Ernon ties. If there was ever an election that called for a negative campaign, this was it.

Also, Arnold was slamming Davis even before he announced.

So we had Davis being bashed by Arnold and wimpy Dems telling Davis not to bash Arnold.

Americans like fighters, not wimps.

When will Democrats learn?
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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
18. There may be hope...
GOTV.

Progressive issues win when the voter turnout is high. Voter turnout is high when the weather is good, and the people get motivated, or when there is a burning issue.

All the polls are of "likely" voters, but I question how you might determine who is likely in a special election like this.

It may turn out to be a battle of negative images.

If Arnold was sufficiently tarnished by recent news, he could lose a very large chunk of his support among women, some hard right conservatives in southern and northern California could split their vote, or not show up at all.

Its a shame there were no polls, other than internals, that could clue us in.

Which is why I bitched a little, then asked for a ray of hope.

Hope is the best bet right now, because hope is another thing that encourages voting. We need all the hope we can wish for.

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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
20. This recall election has been such a circus and the star performer
of course was AhhhNuld Schwarzeneegger. All the media, TV, radio, print press might as well have named this the Arnold special election. The real life politicians were drowned out by pomp and special effect shows with the Gropenator shouting out lines from movies such as Network -- "I'm mad and I'm not taking it anymore" It's not clear at all while he's even mad. The closest thing he came to an actual position on anything was to complain that politicians spend, spend, spend and then tax, tax, tax -- that's apparently all he understands about the running of government. Everyday even in the supposed liberal LA Times the lead feature invariably was about Arnie. His event would get the big space above the line, while the also rans were buried in the back pages. I mean Arnie is a Star and he must have Star treatment, Being a star certainly trumps being a mere governor or senator or ex-President, etc.. Wow the priorities are completely up-side down and the only way to get in right is get your head underneath it and then you can clearly, but find moving around doable, but difficult.I know that I've never seen a campaign discuss substantive issue less in my whole life, including elections we had in my high school -- there was actually more pertinent issues discussed.

Well if the recall wins -- pour a few drinks in me; straighten me up, put a Recall the Gropenator petition in my hands and show me the way out the door. We'll just have to do this recall business right to show the world what it's like when it's well done; when it is based on ideas and vision and fairness,When it springs from the heart!
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
23. This short election has been a complete circus and the star performer
of course was AhhhNuld Schwarzeneegger. All the media, TV, radio, print press might as well have named this the Arnold special election. The real life politicians were drowned out by pomp and special effect shows with the Gropenator shouting out lines from movies such as Network -- "I'm mad and I'm not taking it anymore" It's not clear at all why he's even mad. The closest thing he came to an actual position on anything was to complain that politicians spend, spend, spend and then tax, tax, tax -- that's apparently all he understands about the running of government. Everyday even in the supposed liberal LA Times the lead feature invariably was about Arnie. His event would get the big space above the line, while the also rans were buried in the back pages. I mean Arnie is a Star and he must have Star treatment, Being a star certainly trumps being a mere governor or senator or ex-President, etc.. Wow the priorities are completely up-side down and the only way to get it right is get your head underneath it and then you can clearly, but find moving around doable, but difficult.I know that I've never seen a campaign discuss substantive issue less in my whole life, including elections we had in my high school -- there was actually more pertinent issues discussed.

Well if the recall wins -- pour a few drinks in me; straighten me up, put a Recall the Gropenator petition in my hands and show me the way out the door. We'll just have to do this recall business right to show the world what it's like when it's well done; when it is based on ideas and vision and fairness,When it springs from the heart!

Until then I'm feeling very sad and lonely and scared out of my mind! Californians need a lot of TLC just now.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
29. WTF is the point of this?
Democrats should have listened to you, gloat?

You were wrong, the Davis campaign may have made some mistakes but that doesn't mean he should have resigned. That would have been wrong, to give in to this fraud would have betrayed democracy. sorry, but sometimes you do have to stand on principal.

PS... I am guessing you are not in California, so I think it is rude and insensitive of you to post this now. They are fighting and you are standing on the side lines bitching and playing arm chair quarter back. what have you added to the mix besides bad humor?
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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. The point is ...
That I am pissed off that this recall ended up in such a mess, that there were several things that could have been done, and if a guy like me, with only a rudimentary understanding, could see that, Why the Hell couldn't one of the professionals?

I'm also pissed at the attitude displayed that this is California's problem, so shut the hell up and go the hell home. Oh, and BTW, this isn't an ethical recall, or a legal recall, it's a fraud, imposed on by outside forces in national politics. Don't blame Californians for this, we didn't do it.

That is so convoluted...It is either California's problem, and a completely legitimate recall of an unfortunate Governor who had less support in his own state than Nixon did just before he resigned - regardless of why his support stank - or it is a national issue, because Californians were duped in the energy fiasco, and Repuke forces bankrolled the recall to take advantage of a contrived scenario by which they oust a recently elected Governor.

If the former is true, then Caliornia has nothing to complain about, because Davis is facing this recall because he has no support in his own state.

If the later is true, then everyone has the right and responsibility to discuss the issue and the ramifications of the recall, because it is a national issue, just as Florida was a national issue.

More importantly though, and despite the fact that I feel angry, I'm looking to those same people who say they have a clear understanding of what's going on to offer up a little hope at this time.

I am lost, looking for hope. I said, "Give me some good news."

That is the real point. I want some good news. You don't have any, I guess. All you have is rhetoric about armchair quarterbacking and bitching, but the way Californians have handled this mess, anyone has the right to bitch! It is a mess, and many folks have simply stuck their heads in the sand and pretended it would all work out.

You are right about one thing, I'm not in California, but I am registered to vote there, as is my wife, and we both sent off absentee ballots some time back.

I also voted for Davis twice, well, this makes three times, I guess
:-) Still, I think Davis should have resigned when it was clear that there were going to be enough signatures to get on the ballot.

WAKE UP!

We do not have a handle on vote fraud, but we are aware that it is happening. Republicans have shown that they will do ANYTHING to win. Davis is NOT a popular Gov, and the recall process is 100% legitimate.

This was a perfect opportunity for the Repukes to steal a state, and it looks as if they are abouty to do so. I don't BLAME Davis for this, but he could have stopped it - and that's a FACT!

I firmly believe that Davis should have stepped down before this got out of hand, even though he knew it was a shame. There are more important things than winning individual battles. We are in a political war for our partisan lives, and California is just one step. Davis should have jumped on the grenade, saved California, and walked away, assured that the Dems would stay in control, if nothing else.

THAT would be taking a true stand on principles - the principle that Davis's career is not more important than California's future.

Anyway, Cheswick, I asked for Good News! Got any?


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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
33. Sunshine, the beaches, the mountains, the deserts
It's all good here.

If the government gets too weird we just ignore it.
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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. what beach?
California has a million...which is your favorite?
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