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Golly Gee, I'll ask real nice about Israel this time.

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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 11:43 PM
Original message
Golly Gee, I'll ask real nice about Israel this time.
Edited on Mon Oct-06-03 11:48 PM by the_real_38
Haven't they become a real liability to the U.S.?

It seems that, strategically, we have less to gain from our relationship with them than we do with the Arabs (who have oil, and a whole gosh-bunny pot of proletarian anger over there).

And now, Israel has attacked Syria, is threatening Lebanon, and is even making noise at Iran, which could set off a war of nuclear attrition in the Mideast? And now, one of Bush's advisors, Paul Wolfowitz, a rumored dual citizen (with U.S. and Israel)., has us implementing Likud's policy toward the Arab states as part of our own.

Shouldn't the Democrats start pressing the Palestinian case more forcefully? Since there's not going to be peace in the region until the Israelis move out of those settlements, shouldn't we demand that they do that before they get one more dime of U.S. aid (I"m talkin' about the money, there, too, if there's any doubt.)

note: last thread on this got locked without coherent explanation.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. You are supposed to post this to IP
I think it is dumb too, because you are not allowed to ask questions in IP, without the permission of the mods, but that is the way it is.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Yeah I noticed
sorta reinforcing the 'special' case of Israel, while at the same time removing information that might be go against it...like Israel announcing 600 more settlement homes last week.

We are suppose to argue about IP issues in a controlled vacuum...Americans in partcular are not suppose to think outside a 'balanced' position
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Yeah, this reminds me of this guy...
.... who got arrested here in South Carolina for not being in a "free-speech zone" when he was protesting against Bush.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. bill clinton and rabin
i think bill clinton cut off foreign aid to israel until they returned some favor, i believe settlements it was. i think this resulted in israel electing rabin who promised to do it. rabin was the great and real hope we had, when he was killed much of that died with him. i do believe there are others out there though. and for a democratic president to do it, it would most likely be AFTER the elections so they don't have to worry about how it will affect them with voters.
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. real politique ...
... agreed, you have to wait until somebody rational is in there.
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. Google a little, find a recent article that hasn't been posted yet, and
add your comments and questions at the end of the thread you post in the I/P forum if you want to discuss this without it getting locked. That's a way around the DU I/P issue catch-22.

Either that or just dive into a related thread already in the I/P forum.

DU I/P rules
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I'd never heard of I/P rules...
... do 'scuse.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. Theoretically, US policy toward Israel may be discussed, However,

it must be remembered that the position of the Democratic party is unconditional support for the Israeli government, identical to the Republican party's position, so as we get closer to election, there is bound to be some sensitivity regarding posts which might appear to be criticizing the party's position on any issue.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
27. Hmmmmm....
I seem to remember other boards that prohibit thought contrary to the party line...

It's very telling that any material concerning the subject is buried deep and questions aren't even allowed :silly:

So, tell me, is this a "Democratic" value?
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. You can say what you think, you just can't question the party example

It is OK to say "I disapprove of the Torture Lottery and the Policy of Starvation."

It would NOT be OK to suggest that the Party should not support either.
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-06-03 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. Some nice, yummy points about your kindly post, Mr. Fluffy Bunny -
- Israel is not exactly a "liability" to the US, because we are just as bad as they are. They are more like our little brother, who behaves much like we do, & usually only with our permission.

- Re: Shouldn't the Democrats start pressing the Palestinian case ... - Here, you make the common error, IMHO, of assuming the Democrats are motivated mainly by lofty moral consideration, as opposed to the mean ol' Republicans. The truth is that there isn't much difference between the parties on Israel. (Did you hear Clark tell 'em tonight that Israel has the right to strike PRE-EMPTIVELY at its enemies?) As for the Democrats' morality - remember the Iraq War Resolution?
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Well, thanks for the endearment,...
... but you seemed to have missed the point -> that is, (and I felt that it was implicit in the sentence "Shouldn't the Democrats start pressing the Palestinian case") that we should shift our allegiance to the Palestinians, and shift our priorities to a healthy relationship with the Arabs, because the Israelis are bringing us nothing but trouble.

In other words, we should change our policy.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. I think it is forbidden to question the party's policy, or suggest change

I could be wrong, but that is my impression.
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
26. Delicately stated!
Extra points for tact & subtle ironic aftertaste! ;-)
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. RichM, it looks like you're provoking a flame war...
... probably because you want the thread removed. Don't be scared of discussion, my friend. It leads to truth.
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. Clarification, FYI
1) I don't want the thread removed. (Why would I? :shrug: )
2) I'm not the slightest bit scared of discussion.
3) I have no idea what you are talking about.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. You'll see a HUGE exodus out of the Democratic Party.
I'll be first out the door.

The first of MANY millions.

Then you Palestine Firsters will have it all to yourselves, with plenty of elbow room to boot.

Just like Jimmeh Carter, that buck-toothed bozo, all over again.

Don't EVER make the mistake of thinking that DU = the Democratic Party.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. that is why it is forbidden to question unconditional support for Israel

Jim, DU IS the Democratic party, but not in the same way you are.

You are the heart and soul of the party.

The party exists for you, and Israel and McDonnell Douglass, and if Ariel Sharon goes on live TV and draws and quarters a Palestinian toddler, you can count on the Democratic party to join you in condemning the camera for not swerving over to something else.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. In other words you'll have our balls in a vise? Is that your point?
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 12:32 AM by Tinoire
Blackmail? I consider myself fortunate to know many US Jews who do not feel the way you do and are disgusted by that sentiment.

Millions of Arab and Muslim votes floating out there too so your point is not only outrageous and insulting to many people, it's absolutely mute.

There should be NO special interests dominating the Democratic Party and dictating our foreign policy!

Just like Jimmeh Carter, that buck-toothed bozo, all over again. Nice revealing statement. Any other gems you'd care to share? That was really sad.

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TXDemocrat2004 Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
11. It is our moral duty to defend Israel
n/t
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. what if our moral duty causes us to ...
... support activities that are immoral? YOu know, there are Israelis that oppose Sharon's actions, too. I've met some.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. The policy is, if Israel does it, it isn't immoral

You are probably thinking about things like the Torture Lottery or the Policy of Starvation or breaking the children's hands, but what you have to remember is that just like it is never immoral if America does it, it is also never immoral if Israel does it, and the only people who disagree with that are terrorists.
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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. 1-2-3-4
1. Who is "Our".....
2. Whose "Morals"...
3. WHAT "Duty"......
4. Why Israel?......
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
12. Won't happen until the day you break AIPAC's grip on our politicians
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 12:17 AM by Tinoire
Fascinating stuff here...

Top Ten 2002, Career Recipients of Pro-Israel PAC Funds

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/june2003/0306036.html
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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
14. I/P Issues and DU Support
I think it comes down to $$$ and pressure on DU. The defenders of the Palestinians have little of both. If big donors to a football program don't like a certain song played by the band at halftime --- it won't be played at halftime. Yes?
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IranianDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
16. The regions gonna get fucked beyond repair once Iran's new missles...
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 12:10 AM by IranianDemocrat
go into standbye launch mode, essentially causing WW3. And believe me, I would not be suprised if something like that happens very soon.

Information on the Shab 3 Missle:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iran/missile/shahab-3.htm
http://uk.fc.yahoo.com/030922/325/e9320.html
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2667406a12,00.html
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. I think the US will deploy the IDF to Iran, but only after they nuke it

The population of Iran is too large for the IDF right now, they will thin it down some first.
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Whoa!
...man, one more reason I wouldn't want to be George Bush right now ( besides people constantly having to tell me just who I am and what I'm doing here.)
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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Israel Has 'Em Too!
Back in the Cold War wasn't MAD "successful?" I think Israel would be the most likely to first use nukes in the ME.
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IranianDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Probably.
I'm almost certain Iran is developing a nuclear weapons program secretly to combat Israel's dominance of nuclear weapons.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
35. And this the world our children shall inherit ?
If there's anything left... :(

Absolutely frightful. One day, off-line, you and I are going to have to have a talk.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
24. The rule is in effect
due to the fact the issue can't be discussed civilly and thus people who didn't care about the issue were assulted by incivil threads clogging up the board. Think the candidate flame fests of late times 100 and you have the idea.
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I have seen no incivility or insult here...
...
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. Nuclear escalation in the Middle East is more than I/P
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 12:30 AM by Tinoire
unless we're to believe Sharon's next fantasy that the Palestinians are developing nuclear weapons.

Those rules only apply to Internal Israel/Palestine stories. I think we're at the external point know where we're discussing US policy. That is allowed upstairs.

I think it's a little late for worrying about forced civility when the Middle East is on the brink of a nuclear holocaust thanks to US policy.
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the_real_38 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
33. I'll never forget on 9/11...
... when I saw those planes crashing into the WTC - the first thought I had was "all those people"

The second one was "Israel - this is what we get for supporting Israel. The Chickens have come home to roost."

True story.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. You are not allowed to think that.
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 12:38 AM by Tinoire
The ADL, ZOA, and AIPAC spent millions "de-bunking" that story.

There was no correlation whatsoever.

"They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom" "They hate us because of our freedom"
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kaitykaity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
37. Locking.

If you have questions/comments about DU policy regarding
this topic, please feel free to post it in the Ask the
Administrators forum.

Thanks.

kaitykaity
DU Moderator
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