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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:32 AM
Original message
Aides wouldn't Bother * ?? There's More here, & Impeachment Ain't Enough!
How could they say George Bush allegedly somehow "didn't know" how bad New Orleans was until Thursday, fully three days after Katrina hit?

They say *now* in a long Newsweek article that presidential aides are afraid to give Bush bad news, because he reacts so very poorly to it. Is this the main reason, or is it just excuse-making and spin from an administration that must have been the source of at least some of the info in the Newsweek article excerpts below, when these same administration officials are simultaneously faced with having to explain (among other things) Bush's embarrassing air guitar session of fiddling while flooded New Orleans "burned"?? (see the fourth Newsweek quote below)

Newsweek: "How this could behow the president of the United States could have even less "situational awareness," as they say in the military, than the average American about the worst natural disaster in a centuryis one of the more perplexing and troubling chapters in a story that, despite moments of heroism and acts of great generosity, ranks as a **national disgrace.**" (asterisks added)

Newsweek: "When Hurricane Katrina struck, it appears there was no one to tell President Bush the plain truth: that the state and local governments had been overwhelmed, that the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) was not up to the job and that the military, the only institution with the resources to cope, couldn't act without a declaration from the president overriding all other authority."

Newsweek: "Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco, a motherly but steely figure known by the nickname Queen Bee, knew that she needed help. But she wasn't quite sure what. At about 8 p.m., she spoke to Bush. "Mr. President," she said, "we need your help. We need everything you've got. Bush, the governor later recalled, was reassuring. But the conversation was all a little vague. Blanco did not specifically ask for a massive intervention by the active-duty military."

Newsweek: "To his senior advisers, living in the insular presidential bubble, the mere act of lopping off a couple of presidential vacation days counts as a major event. They could see pitfalls in sending Bush to New Orleans immediately. His presence would create a security nightmare and get in the way of the relief effort. Bush blithely proceeded with the rest of his schedule for the day, accepting a gift guitar at one event and pretending to riff like Tom Cruise in "Risky Business.""

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9287434 (Newsweek story)

The administration's delay in responding to Katrina almost necessarily led to calls for massive military intervention, even by most Democrats. It's as if progressives were suddenly through force of overwhelming human need backed into the unusual position of being the biggest fans of martial law and military action, even on our own soil. Newsweek amplifies the alleged Need for this. New Orleans eventually became a sea of automatic weapons, Marines apparently landed amphibiously on the Gulf Coast. Laws were suspended. Martial Law was instituted at least in Jefferson Parish.

Normally, speculating about the intent of political actors (or anyone else) is hazardous, for those defending the political actors will always have available scoffing, indignation, and puffing "conspiracy theorist" attacks.

But this hazard is not really present with this Bush administration, because they've specifically told us their intent via ideological emissaries. We have a distinct advantage on the question of intent regarding the institution of government because one of the ideological guides of this particular Administration (Grover Norquist) has specifically stated and famously admitted that his intent is to make government so "small and ineffectual" that he can "drown it in a bathtub".

Mr. Norquist: Is the "bathtub" in which all of the federal, state and local government is to be drowned (except perhaps the 82nd Airborne and the rest of the military) by any chance named Lake Pontchartrain, Louisiana? This question seems to have occurred to various writers around the same time, including Thom Hartmann, myself and at least one other essay I saw contributed for publication to the New York Times.

If as Newsweek suggests we accept that Mr. Bush watches little or no TV beyond ESPN, we are nevertheless still told that his aides KNEW what was going on and were themselves watching TV. Given the knowledge within the ADMINISTRATION if not within the cerebral cortex of the President, how could THE ADMINISTRATION and its aides delay (knowing what we all knew) by many days in telling this news to their supposedly difficult boss?

Isn't it criminally negligent not to risk being momentarily chewed out by your boss if it means addressing the largest national emergency in our country's history, and saving many lives? Could Bush's ESPN viewing be interrupted with news of an attack on America? Perhaps not, since even My Pet Goat could not be interrupted for an attack on America at New York's twin towers.

But, if Bush can't be interrupted by his aides where thousands of lives are imminently at stake, then Mr. Bush should, for the safety and security of the country, be INSTANTLY removed from office and imprisoned indefinitely. He is plainly more of a threat to America than the shoe bomber ever DREAMED of being, for the shoe bomber at best threatened to bring down a single airliner with under 200 hundred people, while a combination of the Administration's hatred for government, personal pique and claimed petty fear of the same by his aides magnify the destruction of entire regions of our country.

Under recent administration precedent forcefully argued for in court by this same administration, we need not trouble ourselves with charges or trials, for we've got more than a reasonable fear that our nation's security is imperiled by Mr. Bush. Besides, impeachment is not nearly enough of a penalty, nor fast enough in result given the national security implications of this utter lack of what Newsweek termed "situational awareness".

Blunter folks call this situational awareness thing "Knowing what the hell one is doing."

Was there perhaps a level of acceptance among these aides of the chaos of destruction and a sense that the public would (even without Bush's leadership) rally as one, like they largely did after 9/11, and that the public would get beneficial propaganda messages via admiring Wal-Mart's ability to deliver some water as well as the military's larger ability to come in finally and appear to get some things moving?

Did it occur to these aides that perhaps the public would simultaneously have nothing but contempt and despair given the loss of life for all other "first responder" emergency functions of government, federal, state and local, with Democrats trashing the federal version and Republicans trashing the state and local version? Maybe these aides thought only the military would be left standing intact, and that was cool by them?

Hey, we don't know what's in people's hearts, except that this time Grover Norquist told us he wanted to kill the government. Let's not forget.

Helpfully, but not accurately, Rudy Giuliani was charitable in saying that he had the advantage of complete command of a huge police and fire apparatus even after the loss of so many in the twin towers, while New Orleans had no such infrastructure to be commanded.

The inaccuracy of Giuliani's statement in that New Orleans did have a police force, is not as operative as the overall contrast point: Giuliani as strong Republican leader in charge of very strong police forces results in a very different result than weak Democratic local officials in charge of a fleeing ragtag AWOL police corps.

Never mind that to compare apples and apples, and with Hurricane Katrina releasing the energy of 10-15 nuclear bombs, and the levee break making us realize New Orleans is at bottom a lake bed, Manhattan would have to be nuked (not just several buildings destroyed) and the police responders in Manhattan would need to arrive by small boat to meet a starving desperate population that somehow survived, and the President (a claimed hater of "technicalities") would have to be confused about whether he had technical "permission" to drop food and water on Manhattan or not, despite a clear declaration of emergency there by Giuliani and the overall obvious desperation of the entire situation and the general lack of any objection whatsoever likely to have any political force, regardless of the alleged statements of any one local politician or official alleged to have slowed things down.

Normally, a person would be in danger of being labeled a conspiracy theorist for even thinking about darker motives or what's behind things purposely kept as secret as the body counts in New Orleans, except that this time Grover Norquist and this administration have told us, up front, and in the clearest possible terms, what they intended to do to our government. They specifically intended, and have given us in advance the admission of this Intent. Without this admission, we would risk wallowing in a "blame game" of rank speculation about what was in the normally unknowable ideological mind of a particular Administration.

To accommodate this ideological bathtub-drowning goal that took many forms including the budget axe on flood control programs, people whose total numbers will never be truly known paid the ultimate price.

We shall now need a tomb for the Unknown Citizen.

With secrecy the watchword of the body counts, there's consequently no rational basis whatsoever for confidence in the results being reported, since no one can independently confirm them as a whole, or even in substantial part. In this respect, though it is uncomfortable to see bodies as mere "data", residents of Louisiana have become statistics to be used like Diebold and Sequoia count ballots: secretly, unverifiably, and with no basis for any confidence in the results they thereafter report. First secrecy denies us "one man, one vote", and now secrecy denies us the dignity of "one body, one statistic", at least in the sense that we have no basis to form a belief that an accurate count is truly occurring when secrecy is coveted so much.

Thus, an intentional act by the administration to cut and to downsize so that the government could be drowned in a bathtub had its murderous intentionality transferred to the citizens of the Gulf Coast through government policies of downsizing and cuts. Such angry intent is the basis for every criminal charge (which are intentional acts leading to death or serious bodily injury).

As to the administration's talking point defense of the "blame game", imagine, if you will, the trial of any criminal defendant in any courtroom in this country on charges of criminal negligence resulting in death, such as a drunk driving charge for example. Imagine the defendant's attorney suggesting in Court that the Court was no place for "blame games". When the matter is serious, talking about "blame games" is more than ridiculous. When the matter is serious, talking of "blame games" is utterly irresponsible and morally vacuous. Contemptible, you might say.

This is no game, for either the administration or the citizens of New Orleans. And blame is appropriate, as blame is the accountability mechanism for undeserved loss. So where is the administration's rhetoric of personal responsibility now? And since accountability for undeserved loss is a serious matter, why doesn't fairness and accuracy dictate that the Department of Homeland Security's web page on natural disasters (excerpted at bottom) saying that the Department of Homeland Security has **"primary responsibility"** for natural disasters plastered on the front page of every paper in the country as a retraction and counterpoint to those who "blame the local officials" and have their attacks uncritically printed by the media?

The American people are not so much stupid as they are *partisan*. Continuing to believe there are WMD in Iraq is much more a vote for the position of the administration's TEAM than it is a statement of ignorance about the news (though a few are surely just misinformed). We can understand "blame the local officials" rhetoric along with beliefs that WMD were found in Iraq as expressions of loyalty to one's team, or votes of loyalty, using fallacious arguments. In other words, poll questions are simply read and interpreted by most for the purpose of voting strategically to "support the team", and not to be factually accurate.

But now, things have stretched in this country well beyond the point where fallacious team cheer-leading will work anymore, and Republicans of good faith can and will abandon their President, and are starting to, in droves. We can never accept Bush as "our" President, the air guitar scene illustrating and admitting something no one could ever prove through mere written polemic such as this. Bush is now finished as a President for all but the most irrationally and unfairly loyal partisans, unless there are newly dramatic and profound developments very soon.

Brace yourself, then, for the administration's Intent to survive being caught with its pants down in the toxic overflowing bathtub that is Lake Pontchartrain. Attributing such possibly barbarous intent is hazardous and risky as always, but in admittedly intending to kill the government by drowning it in a bathtub, I think I am relatively safe in inferring that these ideological bathtub killers intended THEMSELVES to survive, and did not intend a murder/suicide. And so, I therefore wonder what the government-killers will try next.

----------------------------------------------------
Website of the
DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
Emergencies and Disasters

"In the event of a terrorist attack, *natural disaster* or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume *primary responsibility* on March 1st <2004> for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. Sometimes I wonder about Bush
I think on some things he could be very involved. Remember him and Rove are in sync. They don't call him "Bush's Brain" for nothing. Then I think on other things he's out of the loop on such as this whole thing.
Either that or he just doesn't care about something unless he and/or his "friends" can benefit from it such as with Iraq.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
36. Here's another thread on two Tues stories possibly able to "take out" FEMA
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
58. Have to wonder if it's related to the Brownie lie?
He straight out lied to the reporter about Brownie's resignation, wanted to buy time for his photo op.

Why wouldn't they straight out lie about some underlings 'fear' of the all-powerful OZ to cover for a delay in the aid to set up his Jim-Dandy-to-the-rescue photo op. Think they rolled out this weak-kneed excuse because of the heat they are getting.

Throwing Brownie overboard didn't work, the 'we're afraid of the boss' ruse isn't working, and the 'I take full responsibility' feign won't work. If enough of us keep an eye on the ball while others continue hitting at all the previous weaknesses, his balance and rhythm will be so far off, the spin will only serve to shake their machine to pieces.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. They'll spread anything. As long as it doesn't stick to the neocon
& Rovbot administrations to come.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Notice too how the neocon "Show horses": Cheney, Rice, Rumsfield,
& Rove all had alibis?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. what were those alibis again? House shopping for Cheney and Rumsfeld?
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. A baseball game for Rummy...where he was away from phone for
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 01:23 AM by applegrove
4 hours. Shoe shopping & a show on broadway for Condi. Rove was sick with kidney-stones.

All of them with a good excuse to not be near a phone. I'm not saying they weren't at these places. I'm saying it gives them excuses.

Either that or they were "playing it cool" more concerned with how markets would perceive Katrina & aftermath than with leadership.

We don't know. But you gotta ask.


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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. i'll spot rummy 4 hours. He still has a problem
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yup. Could be as simple as the markets perception of the disaster
were more important than the reaction to the disaster itself.

But that there does not explain why FEMA was gutting from the inside out.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Hmmm, I wonder what the pizza delivery guys in DC have to say
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I wondered what you meant. Delivery would tell you who was burning
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 01:55 AM by applegrove
the midnight oil - not why the "show horses" were making such a show of being relaxed. I ordered a salad on one of those nights. & another night chinese. I was blogging and blogging. Got hungry. No food close by. All fired up - and wanting a beer.

I imagine there was food delivery to the news stations too.

But yes - if Cheney's staff ordered pizza or were otherwise obviously burning the midnight oil they knew something was up - you'd think they would have called the boss.

But it did seem a little like "showtime". At the very least it shows priorities. The intentional relaxed atmosphere. The hot potato with the Governor's call on Wednesday. Pity play by Pentagon staff on Wednesday or Thursday too.

Eerie.


Like Cheney showing up with a parka to the solem ceremony in Poland. Who knows if it had any meaning other than being careless.

So many ways to get us scared. So many ways to smash the opposition. Don't let anyone really know the truth. Put up a vague mirage and people will read 'where they are' into it.


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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. If the staff is burning midnight oil, the boss/employer is DEEMED to know
legally (businesses act only through their employees, thus at the very least knowledge is attributable to the Administration as a whole, even if they try to isolate * himself.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yup. But my point is that Cheney, Rummy, Rice & all made such
a show of being relaxed that I'm sure the staff was told to stand down too.

Nothing but the allmighty dollar with these people.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
44. they seem to operate on the principle that any barely plausible reason
(but only on first glance) will do. Reason: the media has to print "both sides of the story" as if they were equal, so their line of bull achieves a form of effective immunity from criticism. Should the media ever call a spade a spade, a thousand "liberal media" recriminations (or more) will be forthcoming. "Party disclipline".
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
24. Especially when it was announced on the Wed after Katrine hit
that the Pentagon had taken over running the response to the disaster.

Whether or not Rummie was away from the phone, he was still in charge at that point and the result was a Military Response rather then a Rescue Mission. If the Feds had stayed in charge, New Orleans would be well on the way of becoming the Fallujah of the south.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. the SecDef was away from the phone for four hours
and they expect us to believe this one? Yeah right...

don't get me started on the CiC or Condy by the way
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bear425 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
32. Are we supposed to believe that the most
powerful people in the world do not carry cell phones?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Or have security, aides and handlers that carry cell phones??
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #32
70. There was a solar flare a few days later.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
34. You're kidding, right?
...he was away from phone for 4 hours.

I mean, is this the "official version?" Are they telling us the Secretary of Defense of the United States doesn't have a cell phone?
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
52. Rove was doing a cameo at Crawford on Tuesday night
CRAWFORD, TX - Driving his own pickup, with two trucks blockading both sides of the street, Bush Administration Senior Political Advisor and Deputy Chief of Staff, Karl Rove made a surprise sunset visit/photo-op Tuesday night to the half dozen or so Bush supporters camped across the street from "Camp Casey" in Crawford, Texas where Cindy Sheehan -- whose son, Casey, was killed in Iraq -- originally made her stand requesting a meeting and an explanation from George W. Bush, The BRAD BLOG has learned from eye-witnesses.
http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001784.htm

He wasn't too sick then to do a PR stunt.

I'm not buying that the rest didn't have cell phones. I make my workers carry cells so they can be in touch in an emergency. My local utilities makes their workers carry cell phones so they can be in touch in an emergency. Our nations leaders should be held to a higher standard than a local repair company or my local water/electricity/MUD.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
60. SECDEF is NEVER, repeat, NEVER away from a phone
He travels with a very generous cadre of communications geeks whose sole purpose it is to keep him in continuous touch with the funny farm AND all of his front line commanders, in addition to his boss and anyone else he might want to talk to.

He can talk to anyone, anytime, from anywhere.

State has pretty much the same setup, as do most of the "important" Cabinet types. Monkeyboy has the best of the bunch...the WH comm team is 2nd to none.

I know that the poor bastards working those details would be highly insulted if the "couldn't get to a phone" excuse, like he ran out of quarters at the payphone or something, was used.
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. No silly, they were on a mission "Operation Enduring Vacation"

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
29. Good one
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
45. I like that!!
:toast:


Peace.
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beyurslf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. I dont care what his aides say. Doesn't he own a TV? Or a newspaper?
No one could have gone until Thurs without knowing how bad it was
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
23. I don't care what his aides say, either. Everybody, esp hi up in gov,
always carries a cell phone, pager, etc. The idea that their excuse is that they weren't "near a phone" is effing ridiculous. Even if you accept that pitiful excuse, the next question is, "well, why the fuck weren't you near a phone? A category 5 hurricane was barreling toward NO, one of the top 3 major disasters predicted for the century. Why the hell did you go shopping?"
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #23
37. I'll accept the Kidney Stones
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 10:02 AM by northzax
that's incapacitating, and frankly, Rove doesn't have a job that's vital to national security. But the Secretary of Defense doesn't have an aide with a crackberry? you're telling me that if Russia launched a nuclear strike on the US, it would be four hours before someone told Rumsfeld?

I'm sorry if reality interrupted your game, but that is, after all, your job.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #37
46. But if the excuse is debilitating enough, then REPLACEMENT is a duty....
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
71. But they were small kidney stones. Rove was at Crawford doing a walkabout
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 09:42 PM by applegrove
on Tuesday - and then he was on the Air Force One with Bush on (?) directing photographers to get a photo of bush looking out the window.


It isn't that they were not where they say there were. It is that there was so much press and account of where they were and so much public record - while Bush was waiting for the DVD of what was happening in Louisianna.

They can all say they were away from the T.V. (or at least they can say they were away from any known DVD player for 4 hours).
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
61. As I said above, they have comm teams that "go with"
The monkeyboy even had a secure line out of that elementary school when the planes took down the WTC. Have a look at this picture, and NOTE THE KEY on the side of the phone--secure transmissions unit (STU) equipment.

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
25. I guess they don't have much for services out in Crawford?
So much for the Western White House where Bush supposedly is so well equipped he doesn't need to be in DC.
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It was not a pretzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
9. Nobody dared wake Hitler
on the morning of the D-Day landings because he reacted badly to being given bad news and woken early.


Parallels everywhere
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. For the first time ever - they let Bush run the show. That is terrifying.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
31. Feeling better with Cheney running the show? Rove? Rummy?
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. I was about to mention that.
Yes, disturbing parallels. Also Hitler loved most to be out of Berlin and at his mountain retreat. Away from all except those who adored him the most and his personal photographer.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. I don't know why you talk about Hitler. Bush has never been the one
in control. Hitler was.

No comparison.
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
50. Just some interesting similarities. No of course
Shrub patterns himself after Reagan who was also prone to lots of vacations and was similarly detached from reality.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 03:12 AM
Response to Original message
19. Maybe they know better than to disturb him
when he's in the middle of a serious bender.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. That's actually a good point.
I never did understand why they announced on Tuesday that Bush would visit New Orleans on Friday. Why the long delay? Maybe they know how long it takes to sober him up?
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
20. "Knowing what the hell one is doing."
a great read
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
27. thks mopaul, glad you enjoyed it... n/t
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 04:09 AM
Response to Original message
21. * is criminal in his laziness and self-absorption but these
suckups that work for him are criminals as well.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 06:03 AM
Response to Original message
26. Was an interesting blog in Huffing ton Post from Nora Ephron I believe.
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 06:10 AM by applegrove
She wonders if there hasn't been a split between Rove & Bush vs. Cheney & neocons. Because of Plame investigation or whatever (perhaps anger at being tricked into war with funny intelligence). So Cheney stood down and didn't help out - to make Bush realize he was hung when he didn't listen to his masters.

You never know. Could happen!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nora-ephron/the-curious-i...
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #26
39. go look at today's illustrated daily scribble
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ernstbass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
28. Just when I think that nothing can surprise me
a story like this pops up. Truth really is stranger than fiction. Wouldn't * be the SLIGHTEST bit curious about what was going on down there? How hard is it to turn on a TV for 30 mins? Just like when he was reading My Pet Goat and they told him that we were under attack. Wouldn't ANY thinking person be inquisitive enough to ask a few questions (much less the leader of the free world)?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. one would think that, even on ESPN, Katrina was crawling across screen
or otherwise referred to ....

Don't forget the couple days or more of widespread countdown to Katrina in which very high percentages of the US population already knew it had hit Florida and was moving on. I personally didn't tune in to Katrina until well after Florida and 2 days prior to Louisiana, but I certainly knew it was THERE.... Wasn't Bush curious enough to ask about that hurricane?
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
68. If bush was actually qualified to be president
He would have had the background to know he was going to be presiding over a disaster. New Orleans's geographic problem was well-known. If bush had the background in leadership, he would have known that he had to be in the loop, be making sure that those answerable to him were doing their jobs. But, everyone here knows that bush was not qualified to be president.

So, what is curious is that no one ran the other way up the chain of command. NORAD said all they needed was the CIC's word and they would have airlifted aid. Why didn't they say something to him? Why didn't his aides say anything to him? Why didn't his friggin wife ask him to turn on the TV and see what his loyal subject were seeing?

It's very curious. A case of the dog not barking. Maybe someone hung him out? Are the neocons in-fighting?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Interesting possibilities, all kept secret in terms of insider knowledge
and you will be punished for making educated guesses about our government if you think too much about what's being kept secret and develop a theory about what the government is doing that it's not telling.

Good point that it is absolutely incomprehensible that *'s wife didn't remark to her husband *. We ALL talked to those closest about this, 98-99%. Didn't we?

If you didn't that raises the question of whether you give a darn about this country. Does * not care?
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
35. The neocons have never hidden their intent. Those of us who have ..
.... followed them closely since the late 90's have probably been among the one's least surprised (if at all) by what we've witnessed.

For me the shot-heard-round-the-world moment was Scalia stopping the vote on Saturday, Dec 9, 2000. Folk who stuck their head in the sand that day, most of whom still have their asses up in the air, are the enablers of these murderous hoodlums.

It has never been a surprise to me that the bulk of the resistance has consistently come from members of the Congressional Black caucus.

By Thursday, Sept 1., I posted an OP here entitled "Bush. Wants. Them. To. Die" which gathered many quite supportive responses and was headed to the 'greatest page' faster than most anything else I've posted at DU and was deleted, not just locked -- gone.

The book I've finished the first draft is entitled "We The People ... Have No Clothes : A Primer for post-Imperialist America" -- the post-imperialist America is the truly hopeful part of the title. The first part, however, is truth.

Whether you have had your head stuck in the sand or your brain infested by nothing by Fox and the other corporate media outlets, the fact is that in the case of Iraq and Katrina and the stolen elections of 2000, 2002, 2004 and a bunch of other actions by Bush and the neoconsters, the truth has been available, in the clear, no need for whistle-blowers or leaked documents, that indicate we as citizens have simply watched these guys and gals convert America into a 24/7 killing, torturing, lying, resource grabbing machine. Anyone surprised by the fact that Bush ate cake and strummed, Condi bought shoes and went to the theater, Rummy watched a ball game; that Bush and pickles got a good night's sleep while Gov Blanco was screaming for help -- anyone claiming to be surprised by those actions is probably lying to cover-up the fact that they are delighted that a bunch of poor folk died and a vast number of poor folk were dispersed and likely never to congregate again in New Orleans.

The WSJ published a report last week leaving no doubt that the rich white folk of New Orleans, with ice cubes for the cocktails and disel generators humming were being quite articulate about how the new New Orleans was going to be much different than the one they watched drown.

Outstanding essay, as always, Land Shark -- I gave it vote # 5 for the recommend page.


Peace.

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. You're right, they crossed the line in the fight for the 2000 election
when is your book going to be available?
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. I have someone reading the first draft; after their input, I plan to ...
... ask ~ 8 others (you're one of them if you have time) to read and comment, plus offer edits.

If the consensus at that point is that it is of value, then we'll seek publisher. I plan a small format (5"W, 8"L), hardbound book with no more than 120 pages including index.

As one person has already described it -- a "user's manual for citizenship."


Peace.
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Tuesday_Morning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #35
47. I'd like to see that OP
"Bush. Wants. Them. To. Die"

I don't believe in toning down how fundamentally evil these assholes are.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. I'd like to show it to you but it was deleted and I don't have a copy.
I did post most of the statement in a comment to another thread and when "advanced search" feature is functioning you should be able to find it -- used the same title as the OP.


Peace.

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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
38. Land Shark
Per DU copyright rules
please post only four
paragraphs from the
copyrighted news source.


Thank you.


DU Moderator
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corkhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. what a buzz kill
:evilgrin:
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Hmm, OK, but I thought I had only quoted 4 above, with each paragraph
labeled "Newsweek" and the link at the end. Or, maybe I counted the paragraphs using a Diebold product. If I went a hair over four, it's a long article so a bit extra is probably still "fair use" : )
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
55. Mod: 4 paragraphs are Newsweek - the rest is OP's AMAZING analysis
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 12:57 PM by Melinda
And wow - just wow. :thumbsup:

This should be shared far and wide.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
48. An absolutely brilliant article.
Edited on Tue Sep-13-05 11:21 AM by Gregorian
Blame is appropriate. I totally disagree with one thing- Even if there are newly dramatic and profound developments, that will not change what has happened. Not after what they've done.

It just kills me that the story of my life is having to painfully watch as the world catches on, only to change after it's too late. (Bush is nothing compared to what is about to happen.)

They've spun as much spinning as they can spin. Rove is a spun unit. Over. It was like putting a used shoe salesman in charge of the White House. After a while, people realize they don't want the product.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. "Bush is nothing compared to what is about to happen."
This has been my message, repeatedly.

We control the water, the oil and the airspace of much of the Middle East. Bush and the neoconsters not only have no intention of giving it up, they are soon going to consolidate their control.

We have strategic nuclear strike capabilities second to none on the planet. Tehran and a few surrounding sites are trivial.

That done, we have total control of the airspace and the oil and the water in the Middle East.

Any sophisticated "head of state" is now fully informed of how little regard Bush and the neoconsters have for the law or for life or for the environment of the planet -- Iraq, Gitmo, extensive renditions for torture purposes, Kyoto, and now, New Orleans.

New Orleans told the world that the entire Executive Branch of the United States Government partied and vacationed while its citizens drowned. Got that; the folk in Beijing and the Kremlin and every other capitol of the world, did.

Bush and the neoconsters care for only two things, their unrestrained acquisition of power and total control of the planet's remaining oil and natural gas. They control that, everyone pays them. Given that the 'big guys' -- Russia, China, and India are led by folk who do not want to be vaporized, they are not going to do squat to stop Bush and the neoconsters. Nothing.

So, unless We The People ... do something real soon now to stop Bush and the neoconsters from proceeding with their "creative destruction" of whatever they see as an impediment to their PNAC goals, we are going to witness the only country ever to use nuclear weapons, use them again -- probably within weeks, if not sooner.

See New Orleans for what it was meant to be -- a message to the entire world that Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld and all their buddies partied while American citizens drowned. That's the message.

The mullahs in Tehran undoubtedly 'get it' and they face a simple decision matrix -- give America an exclusive to all their oil and announce an alliance with Bush, or bend over and kiss their ass good bye.

Oh, and for those who think that Bush would not allow 10,000 or more of our troops on the ground in Iraq to take a hit from Iran as an excuse to nuke the Iranians ...... That's why the mullahs are in such a bind - hit us first and they know they're vapor; don't hit us and they're vapor. What's that called - 'between a rock and a hard place.'

Hey Tehran - do the deal!


Peace.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. What I have in mind is not political.
There is no way six billion people can continue to sustain themselves in the way we are currently living. I could be wrong. I think it's safe to say that in a very short time, we are going to see problems with the planet. Six billion is a disaster waiting to happen. But then we've always had problems. Maybe I'm just being negative. Life never was easy. But soon we may have to tread water just to survive.

Maybe you're right. Maybe hate is worse than natural disaster. That would ease my mind significantly. Because we can fight hate, but we can't fight mother nature.

I don't think politicians are going to go as crazy as you predict. I just think that survival is a basic instinct. These nuts have that going for them. Who knows...
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. I think Bush and the neoconsters have zero regard for life; they've done
... the math, they know the population on the planet today is not sustainable, they know that without water and power much of that population will be dead within a decade or less and if we need any evidence of how willing they are to let it happen just look at Darfur, what AIDS is going to do to much of the population of sub-Saharan Africa, their reluctance to contribute on an appropriate scale to the UN Millennium Project, and New Orleans.

They do not care about life. They have told us precisely what their real goals are in all their PNAC pronouncements and most Americans do not know what PNAC is.


Peace.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. hate is worse than natural disaster because it tends to self-replicate
and spawn more, while hurricanes die down and though more may come later in the season, usually in different locations....

Conservatives constantly argue that there should be no extra penalty for hate crimes, a crime is a crime.

But then, when it comes to 9/11, the specific intent of the hijackers is incredibly important to them in terms of magnifying the social importance of the event beyond the great loss of life itself. GO figure.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #48
67. "dramatic and profound developments" includes diversions....
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jayctravis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
51. He doesn't watch TV.
Not that TV should rule anyone's life, but he certainly (even on vacation) should be watching the nightly news.

Or open a paper. Or log onto the internets.

He's a technophobe. He honestly has no innate curiosity about anything. He'll probably do stuff that's brought to him in a crisp binder by an aide, but he lacks self-motivation.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. Never fear, he watches tv. Just ask his wife:
Quote from the First Lady:
"I enjoy watching Face the Nation and contrary to popular belief, President Bush and I do enjoy watching television. I just can't let George eat pretzels at the same time."
<http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/06/2003060... >
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Sewsojm Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. It makes no difference
how they spin it, the President has the responsibility to Know what is going on especially when the whole country and every other country around the globe knows what's going on. Just ask yourself if you know of one person that didn't know what was happening in New Orleans. And as far as his own people being afraid to tell him about it only proves how Incompetent his whole group is. And don't tell me he and Laura, Daddy, Mommy, and every other Asshole around him didn't know. Fuck You *, you lying incompetent POS!!
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. thinking the same thing as you at the same time!!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
64. I have two questions regarding Norquist's statement
1) When was it made, before or after Katrina?

2) More important, how is this statement best tied to the Bush Administration? Granted, he and they are ideological soul mates, and they have consistently behaved since taking office in a manner reasonably consistent with Norquist's statement. But what do we have that can better tie the Bush Administration to the statement itself? I think that's important.


Having asked those two questions, I propose a compromise to your solution to the problem: Give Bush immunity from criminal prosecution on condition that he resigns from office (Not sure yet how to handle the Cheney problem. He should resign too, but not for reasons related to the handling of Katrina). Yes, that would be letting him off the hook. But he'd be infinitely less dangerous to our country as a private citizen than in his current position.

Lastly, I'm nominating this thread because it is a very strong statement that puts the blame for this tragedy where it belongs and where it's needed -- and no, it's not a game.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Answers to your questions
(1) Norquist's statement made long before Katrina
(2) he used to be gingrich's right hand man and has been *'s "Field MArshall" or liaison to social conservatives
(3) your compromise sounds fine, isn't it like Ford's solution for nixon (assuming nixon had some assurances of a pardon)?

see
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010514/dreyfuss
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
66. kick.
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