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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:42 AM
Original message
WE MUST DEMAND AUTOPSIES ON THE VICTIMS!
In LBN there is an article stating they will use mass graves. This is unacceptable. The ONLY justification for not citing CAUSE OF DEATH and TIME OF DEATH is that the federal government does NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW that many of these people survived until this weekend or later.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. They went to great lengths to identify even the smallest bone fragments
Edited on Tue Sep-06-05 09:45 AM by Cooley Hurd
...from the rich bankers that died on 9/11!!!

(I know that wasn't your point, NSMA, but the callousness of it all has me in a fucking FIT!) :grr:

On edit: NOMINATED!!!!!!! :kick:
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Great point Cooley
Why do the poor of NOLA not deserve the same treatment.
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. You've got to be kidding... This is for real? Mass graves?
That is totally unacceptable! Of COURSE they will try to cover up WHEN these poor people died.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. here's the link
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
43. Mass graves...mass graves...That phrase rings a bell.
Now, where did I hear about it before? Something about a despotic leader burying his own people in mass graves?...Hmmm.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. It's VERY important we know how many died from drowning, and
how many from dehydration, and how many from dysentary, and how many from gunshot wounds if we're ever going to learn anything about how to handle a disaster like this again.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. I fear that the families will have no legal recourse without autopsies
When these families find out that aid was deliberately withheld from them all holy hell will break out.

These people continue to be spit on by this criminal administration :grr:
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livetohike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
4. Nominated NSMA
I am sure that enough qualified people can get down to NO to help with the autopsies. This is a major issue, imo.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. They refused offers from coroners to come to the city. nt
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rsmith6621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. Where do we get the $$$$$


Where Do we get enough ME.......

The Government is broke...its all in those around shrub bank accounts.
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progmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. mass graves.
words fail me.
this is america?
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. Can you link to the LBN thread or the article saying this?
I am curious who said it and in what context. I can't find it in there.

Thanks
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. here you go
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Thanks!
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Mizmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
9. Who wants to volunteer to collect these bodies?
we're talking about 10,000 bloated, rotten, bug-riddled, disease carrying bodies.



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JimmyJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. We NEED to know who died as a result of tragedy (drowning)
and who died as a result of the criminal acts of the government. Otherwise, this will be whitewashed by the government, the anger of the people will abate and history will not be honest in its assessment of what really happened.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. We not only NEED to know, we have a RIGHT to know.
Fascist fucks.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. So what?
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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. ummm this isn't a "volunteer position," like handing out donuts. This is
a job that people get paid for.

I was a paramedic; I don't remember anyone asking me to "volunteer" to go to something really ugly when I was ON THE CLOCK.

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Tanuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. Please
These are American citizens who became bloated bodies through no fault of their own. If one bloated body turned up mysteriously in the river near your town, I'm sure it would be autopsied for cause and circumstances of death, so why should any of these citizens, whom the Bush administration has already failed so miserably and fatally, receive any less?
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. There was no shortage of volunteers willing to go to Ground Zero...
...and dig thru the rubble for burned and mutilated corpses.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. The same volunteers who collected blown to bits body parts...
that were bug-riddled and disease-carrying by the time they were all collected at the Trade Center?

I don't know why, but I've talked to people about this and they seem to have some weird idea that Ground Zero would have been somehow "cleaner." Fewer bodies, yes but many of the same risks. The stench and carnage was horrible.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
46. Actually, you are talking about surviving victims' loved ones
mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, grandmothers and grandfathers. To write them off as "bloated, rotten, bug-riddled, disease carrying bodies" is grossly offensive, imo.


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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
11. I heard last night on CNN or MSNBC that some autopsies were
being performed. There was a tent set up with refrigerator trucks where they expected to be processing thousands of bodies.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
18. Confirming mass graves; just heard on CNN. nt
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peekaloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
24. Exactly. While phoning your reps & Senators today make this known!
:kick:
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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
25. This is unacceptable - H had better not hear ONE of them say another
word about Saddam and his mass graves EVER AGAIN!

I agree with the thought posted up thread - they did dna tests on fingers and toes in NY, why should these poeple be any different? Those with insurance will be kept from filing claims because they will not be able to prove the death of their loved ones. Just as there were some scam artists that filed false claims after 9/11, there will be insurance companies that will refuse to honor the policies saying that these people might still be alive somewhere because there is no proof. Haven't these people been through enough?

FEMA is for land owners and businesses. FEMA won't give you a penny just because someone is missing and presumed dead. If there are people out there with policies, even the barest of face values, why should they be denied that relief?
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
26. To be honest, I don't see how autopsies on all these victims...
...could be done. I'm not sure that the signs of drowning vs. starvation could be determined with all of these bodies floating and decomposing in water for so long.

I don't want to be gruesome, but as a medical student, I'm afraid that the subtle physical findings that could distinguish between starvation and drowning will be lost.

What DOES need to be done is careful documentation of where these bodies are found (floating in streets vs. in attics). Not only is that the best clue regarding cause of death that we have, but probably the key to relatives learning of their fate. Not everyone will have dental records to compare to, but it's pretty obvious who that person is if they were found in their home.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Let me add that either way, the government is still responsible...
...for their deaths. It is the government's fault that the levees were not properly maintained, that there was no plan to evacuate those who could not evacuate themselves, and that aid arrived so late.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Not true. Lung tissue would easily distinguish drowning
brain tissue could easily distinguish dehydration as could heart tissue. I've been in forensic medicine for 25 years on the legal end...
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. But is this true weeks after decomposition sets in??
I understand that this is what you look for normally, but are these findings reliable after this length of time with the conditions these bodies are sitting in?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. It's only one week as of yesterday..and some of these people
didn't die until Friday or Saturday
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
48. Yes, they can definitively determine whether death occurred by
drowning or otherwise for a lengthy time after the death. It is called forensic science.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
30. This is not acceptable. Every person has the right to be identified
and it should be determined if they died directly from the storm or from Bush's neglience!! How do we stop this?
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
32. Agree. * is scared to admit how many he killed through delay.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
33. NSMA, is there some sort of legal suit that could be brought?
An injunction? Anything to stop this before it happens?

This is like a Stalinist scheme. Unbelievable.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. I am not sure if anything can be done emergently
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
34. You are absolutely right. Nominated. nt
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
35. At the very least, autopsies of a statistically revelant sampling...
We need to know:

1.) Time of death

2.) Cause (drowning, starvation/dehydration, lack of medications) etc.

3.) Location of death

4.) Circumstances of death
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #35
52. 2.) Cause (drowning, starvation/dehydration, lack of medications) etc.
CAUSE yes, CAUSE .... any specific dieseases we might be trying to not care to admit to that might exist and might be communicable?

:kick:



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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
36. I agree completely....
A coroner would be able to tell if a person had drowned in the Katrina storm surge or had died later.

I want to know how many of those folks died waiting for help!!
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. I wonder how $$$ liability factors in to all of this. nt
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. I'm sure it was the driving force
It's cheaper to let people die than to rehabilitate them from injury and disease
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Or give the families of victims legal ammo. nt
Edited on Tue Sep-06-05 11:16 AM by smartvoter
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
38. how many will be weighted down and pushed out to sea?
that's what i want to know. my answer? all the ones who were shot by "law enforcement" whatever the hell that means any more.
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SOteric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
41. Propose this in the activism forum, NSMA
I'm sure you can rally some of us to write our congresscritters, maybe the Admins will even choose this as an official action.

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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
44. I know it's horrific, but...
We're talking tens of thousands of dead people. In the case of 9/11, the bodies were incinerated - there was no threat of disease. With this many dead people, authorities will be forced to use mass graves and possibly even cremation. That said, there's no reason they can't (and every reason that they should) take a represenative number of bodies (holy Christ, what a thing to have to say) and preserve them for a "thumbnail" of the causes of death.
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tedzbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
45. They don't want to spend $ doing this because most victims were poor!
AND black. I hope the NAACP goes ballistic with this. The thought of mass graves is disgusting.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
47. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. What a rotten thing to say, William769! n/t
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
50. Reason for autopsies:
1. To establish criminal negligence, of which there is already considerable evidence. Death by storm? Death in the aftermath, of gov't neglect or other causes? If it is established that the Bush regime deliberately delayed aid, to strongarm Gov. Blanco into martial law (and for related purposes--greed is my guess), or if there were any other unjustifiable delays, then individuals should be prosecuted, and this is important evidence. (There was a doctor on Ophra today who spoke about dying people being taken to a morgue TO die--people dying IN the morgue, as deliberate policy--with no care, with no one to comfort them. TIME and PLACE of death should be chronicled, for this and other reasons.)

2. To assist families with insurance claims--the survivors are people who have lost everything--this is one of the few things they might be entitled to, that could help them recover. (--mass graves could be an insurance company plot, done for their benefit).

3. To establish if other crimes were committed, including murder and rape--by authorities or civilians. Mass graves could be covering up numerous crimes. The Bushites were the ones yakking about armed gangs and looters and chaos. If they think crimes were committed, how can they permit mass graves?

4. To comfort the survivors--so they know how their loved ones died, and IF they died, so they can have a funeral or closure of some kind.

5. For humanitarian reasons, and to show the compassion of the nation. Our country let many of these people die of dehydration, starvation, disease, injury, stress and by neglect of infrastructure. We owe each one of them a funeral.

-----

**Idea for the Sept. 24 protest. The thousand coffins were a very effective Iraq War protest (in New York, at the RNC). If they won't give them cause of death autopsies, and proper funerals and interment, then we should do it symbolically, to honor them, to apologize to their spirits, and to comfort the living.**

-----

Why mass graves? Why not cremation? Mass graves is such a horrible indignity, a final insult--seeming to equate with the Bushite attitude towards the poor, that they are negligible, of no account, not human. Cremation is not ideal, but is somewhat better--as a last rite. At least there would be no little parentless children imagining their parents' rotting remains amidst a mass of other decaying bodies underground. Cremation is more of a purification. --after the autopsies, of course.
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
51. ...
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SheWhoMustBeObeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
53. Yes. Autopsies for all, death certificates for all identified.
In another thread a DUer reported hearing (source uncited) that DNA samples would be collected from every person who died. I hope this is true for the sake of their survivors, but autopsies must be performed.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
54. Remember, autopsy and identification are different...
One can be identified without a full autopsy.

I'm still researching how long the signs of drowning vs. starvation can be detected in a corpse (in response to replies above)

But again I would like to say that I hold the federal government accountable for all deaths whether by drowning or starvation!
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
55. KICK AND NOMINATED
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kdmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-06-05 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
56. Seen on CNN at 8:45 PM, but no link
Louisiana Governor Blanco will not allow mass graves. The spokesperson said there is NO WAY they will allow that to happen to Louisiana citizens. I think the person talking was the chief medical examiner. He was on the Paula Zahn show.
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