Bill Clinton why didn't you just SHOOT ME...and Get it Over With!

[KoKo]

I and Joe Conason and Murray Waas and Gene Lyons and Salon.Com back in the old days of your "troubles" fought to the death for you.

I lost family members and long time friends defending your "Monica Thing" to all of them...because I believed your heart was honorable, you loved America as much as I did, and you knew about the little folks..the fogotten folks ...and, that you had been trashed unfairly by the most vicious right wing media onslaught we'd ever seen in America's History.

I believed in you ....

When you didn't support Al Gore at the 2000 "Selection" against the corruption of that stolen election...I said to myself and others: "Clinton couldn't support Gore because of the Monica Thing...so we shouldn't blame him...Gore had to win this on his own."

After 9/11 I saw you walk among the streets of New York and visit Ground Zero when the CHIMP had yet to make a visit. I applauded you...I still believed in you...even with questions about "Selection 2000" ...you won my heart back again.

Since then...you and your wife have seemed to drift back and forth..back and foth and then after your heart event and the GREAT TSUNAMI...you decided to get back on the Poltical Stage. But, in doing that you allied yourself with the biggest force of DARKNESS/EVIL
that I think America has ever seen. You decided to work with Bush I to solicit Tsunami Funds.

NOW...you are actively working with the very man whose minions and machine tried to IMPEACH YOU throughout your whole Presidency. And, who finally succeeded when a 20 something White House Worker...snapped her thong at you and you fell down on her or she fell down on you...whatever the story is.

I forgave it all...but I will NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! forgive your work with this father of the Spawn from Hell...the Seed of Satan the Idiot in Thief...The Chicken Hawk, Coke Snorting, Drunken..idiot of the Bush family of IDIOTS who are run by powers that most American's can't even dream of in their evilness.

NOW...you seek to ally yourself with the FATHER AND THE MOTHER of this Evil by soliciting funds for Hurricane Katherine?

How could you do this Bill Clinton. How could you ignore this disaster for your own political gain via your wife's possible run for President.

How could you have cheated all of us who loved you. How could you do this to your Party which is struggling?

But you know what...Bill....WE WILL OVERCOME YOU... WE WILL BE BETTER THAN YOU. If you choose to throw us out of the Democratic Party WE WILL BE STRONGER THAN YOU! WE WILL BUILD OUR OWN NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY...and Fuck you Bill, George I & II and Jeb the other brothers and Hillary.

I'm not the only one that's totally fed up with this crap...there are millions of us out there...who are just waking up and we are mad as hell and not taking it anymore. GOT THAT...BIG DOG...GOT IT?

:rant:

[Bluebear]

1. I sign my name to that rant.

No more. No more Clintons, no more Bushes. No more.

[jrthin]

21. Definitely add my name

to the list. And I certainly relate to losing a best friend because I so strongly supported him during the rw attacks.

[anitar1]

153. Please add my name. n/t

[Richard Steele]

161. And mine. Bill Clinton is a DAMN fine politician....

...but at the end of the day, he's
just that: a POLITICIAN.

NOT a leader,
not a man of strong convictions,
not a man who places the good of others ahead of his own.

We were LUCKY we had him as POTUS when we did;
but we can and MUST do better.

[libhill]

76. I gave up on Clinton

the first time I saw his smiling face on TV sitting next to George Sr. I've known from that moment, in my heart, that Bill was a fucking sell out. Fuck him and the horse he rode in on. How can any sane person ally himself with the very cabal that tried so hard to destroy him?

[minkyboodle]

183. I've been there

The Clintons are no friend of mine.. sorry but I've felt that way for a long while now.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Amen

------------------------------------------------------
Save the Gulf, then save the nation!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[Imagevision]

172. Bill Clinton we see the light and your not it anymore - Associating with

Bush Sr. is, well,...condoning Bush jr. especially after the Katrina travesty, at one time I believed you were the best thing that happened for this country and I too backed you because of the; "I did it because I knew I could get away with it" Monica scenario.

Many realize you're posturing to be called the "First Man" for Hillary but too many don't agree with the way your going about it, you also are aware of the connection between George H.W. Bush's CONNECTION to the greatest man whom you ever shook hands with.

PS.Even the architect is having problems with his pupil.

http://downingstreetmemo.com/

[onecent]

3. I love the man...but damn I feel your pain...amen

[justiceischeap]

4. Or you could look at it this way

He's working for the people of the Gulf Coast and unfortunately that comes with Poppy. I think when he and Poppy do these press conferences he's doing the American public a service not the opposite. Poppy is usually all smiles and jokes making light of the situation, then there's evil Bill telling the truth to the public. If he has to mix with the enemy to get the airtime to tell the truth, so be it.

Sorry you feel so let down by him but I think he makes people listen and it's unfortunate that he has to be dirtied by Poppy's presence but seeing and hearing him brings me comfort in any time of disaster because he just makes so much sense.

[kikiek]

8. I'm with you. Even that CNN poll says do you agree with Bill Clinton that

the govt didn't do enough. He has been talking out. I think Bush put him on the spot to help with raising money on purpose. Clinton is a smart man. He will get his message out anyways.

[Tyranny_R_US]

9. How much are you willing to accept from these people....

We're not talking about a dick getting sucked people are dying and he isnt doing SHIT to help them except yuck it up with poppy how much are you going to take until you open your eyes and demand that they get their act together?

[justiceischeap]

15. What would you have an EX-President do?

He's doing all he can do... he's speaking the truth, something this administration has NEVER done and something the public needs to hear. It may seem like inaction to you but he's still an influential man and if he says this administration screwed up people are going to listen.

[lancdem]

11. I'm with you

He can accomplish a lot of good this way.

[FreedomAngel82]

108. So what is your explaination

for why Barbara Bush called him a son and Poppy said he was like the son he never had? I think my dad might be onto something when he said he thinks they wanted John Kerry to lose last year even without voting fraud.

[anitar1]

154. Pure BS. The koolade must taste really good. n/t

[Imagevision]

174. Clinton will raise the cash,Not Sr. and certainly not jr.

know even the architect is having problems with his pupil.

http://downingstreetmemo.com/

[Catamount]

188. I'm with you! I'm in Australia and a little out of the loop- but I heard .

Bill speak out against the slow response to the disaster- yet I also share the pain of the original poster- it's a masochistic relationship between me and the Clintons.

[DancingBear]

5. I move closer to this rant with each passing day

Perhaps I am not "nuanced" enough to see what others see in this dalliance, but as of today I find no redeeming value in it. At all.

[Cleita]

6. I appreciate the good job he did for our country as president in

spite of the tremendous pressures from the right, but unfortunately, he has disappointed me now as well.

[SaveElmer]

7. Yawwwnn....

Another Bullshit anti-Clinton post...what a surprise!!!

[Bluebear]

10. Bullshit to you but a sorry realization for a lot of us who believed.

I still believed in a place called Hope. It's hard to remember it now.

[SaveElmer]

14. Then look past your blinding hatred of Bush...

Clinton is doing what is right for America...his job is not to satisfy Bush haters everywhere. I certainly understand and share the complete and utter disdain of Bush here, but the sad fact is that a huge chunk of the country does not agree with us. Clinton is aligning with Bush sr to get the job of getting relief to the gulf states accomplished. That is his mission. It is the job of others, our elected officials, to look at the failures and incompetence of these people!!!

[MadeinOhio]

16. Huge chunk of country is 25%. That's nothing. 18% of the population.Wow.

[SaveElmer]

17. What the hell are you talking about?

[MadeinOhio]

59. What you were talking about is what. 18% of the pop. agrees with him.n-t

[SaveElmer]

60. I'm sorry I am not understanding what you are saying...

More detail or a link might clear it up.

[MadeinOhio]

67. Bush=18% of population.Your Clinton aims to please 18% of population.. n|t

[SaveElmer]

69. Dude...where are you getting these numbers

Can you provide any link whatsoever!!!

[MadeinOhio]

72. Only around 40% of america usually votes or registered to vote.

122 million voters in 2004, out of a population of over 350 million.
Bush receives about 50 million votes total, and overall now of those voters he has 30% approval, = 18% of the U.S. population even represent him.

Clinton's sucking up to that base, good job.:eyes:

[SaveElmer]

77. Of voters yes...voters don't matter now...

It is not realistic to think that the 50% that did not vote would have voted Democrat.

However, that was not my point actually...my point is there is a solid 50% of this country that are Republican...whether they approve of Bush's handling of this situation does not meane they are going to abandon that. Clinton and Bush need to raise money from everyone.

[MadeinOhio]

80. Voters do matter...

And a huge majority of them are registered independant. They do matter and Clinton is still pandering to a small base, a minority of america.

[SaveElmer]

82. Pandering? What the hell are you talking about?

Jeeebus ...he is trying to raise money to help the Hurricane victims...that is it. He is trying to do so through large corporate donors...most of whom are Republican...a bipartisan approach will work better there...that is all...it is not any more complicated than that

[MadeinOhio]

87. Well of course but its called the same thing.

Politicans including Clinton pander for their programs.

[SaveElmer]

92. Well if the "program" is saving lives...

Then it's fine by me whatever you call it!

[Bluebear]

20. And Clinton does not have sufficient name to do that on his own?

"Clinton is aligning with Bush sr to get the job of getting relief to the gulf states accomplished."

Why does this have to be a tandem act with Bush I? Explain please.

[SaveElmer]

23. He and Bush are courting large corporate donations...

Most of those guys are Republican unfortunately...it is much better to have a bipartisan approach to this...if nothing else to give people cover. Sad but true..I don't really care...if it gets the job done its ok by me!

[Blue-Jay]

25. Gee...I wonder....

Maybe it's to garner financial support from people regardless of political leanings?

That's just a guess, though.

:eyes:

[sendero]

162. Oh fucking Bullshit..

.... Clinton has been licking Bush's ass for months now.

Spare me the "doing what's best" bullshit, he's doing what is best for Bill which is fine but not with my vote.

And his bullshit wife is even worse. If she's nominated, I'll stay home - I'm all for pragmatism but there has to be a line somewhere.

[SaveElmer]

163. Brilliantly executed post...

Full of facts and useful information!!!

Thank you !

[Andromeda]

187. Great, stay home then.

If you don't like Bill Clinton don't vote for him---oh, that's right he's not running for anything.

But never mind, you can NOT vote for Hillary Clinton. It probably doesn't matter that 2008 is THREE freakin' years away and she hasn't even announced that she's even going to run.

Have fun hating the Clintons. It's just going to give you an ulcer which you probably have anyway.

[never_get_over_it]

39. I'm sorry but your post is RUDE

this is not a typical Clinton rant - you can tell from the poster is very disappointed by someone he/she believed in deeply. This is exactly how I felt about the Dems that I had loved and admired for years who voted yes on the Iraq War Resolution...it broke my heart and I have the same sense with this post

I pretty much agree with the post - except I do have to tell the poster it was not Bill Clinton who did not support Al Gore during the campaign - it was Al Gore who kept him away and that was a BIG mistake on Al Gore's part.

I too am deeply disappointed in the Clintons - but I have come around a bit in that I hoping against hope with some of his statements today that he takes this opportunity to stick it to this Bush family and administration as much as he can. If he legitimizes them and makes excuses for them and enable them to get away with this - then I will be not just disappointed with him but completely pissed.

[SaveElmer]

49. Sorry if you think it is rude...

I generally try not to be but I am sick and tired of these anti-Clinton rants. The guy is simply trying to help people in need. I truly believe that is his sole motivation here. And to attack him the way this and other posters do is inexcusable.

And despite what you say, this poster is no different than the others...they simply hate Bush so much they will not tolerate anyone who does not display the same vitriol, even when it is one of their own.

[Bluebear]

51. Your Hilary avatar is giving you away.

Just sayin'.

You yawwwwnnn at "vitriol' without for an instant trying to understand the OP's disappointment and I think that is inexcusable but what do I know?

[SaveElmer]

52. I do understand...

Anyone who breathes the same molecules as a Bush is scorned mercilessly here...that is what it is about. Because I support Hillary for President does not change that.

And I yawn because I have seen these same types of attacks ad nauseum over the last three days!!!

[Bluebear]

64. The yawn is dismissive and disrespectful

You support Hillary, more power to you. I just suggest that winning more people to your campaign might call for more understanding of people's objections to her candidacy. Again, just sayin', I have no dog in this fight other than to say what I feel. I would have preferred Bill and Hillary to start a contribution campaign on their own rather than hop into Barbara's boat. ("The evacuees are better off because they were destitute on New Orleans anyhow")

[SaveElmer]

68. It shows dishonesty to associate Clinton with her remarks...

Show me any evidence that he approved of her remarks. As you know he agreed to raise money with Bush Sr. well before they became public. If you want to have an honest debate, at least avoid this kind of underhanded tactic.

As to the yawn..it is disrespectful because I believe those bitching about Clinton's efforts are disrespecting him and his noble efforts here...and I will continue to defend him against these attacks.

[Tinoire]

61. And hence the problem. People who do not HATE Bush, especially

on this site, where so much information is available about his evil, may need to go off somewhere and reflect.

To not hate Bush shows how little one cares for his victims.

[SaveElmer]

65. You know...most of us are not children...

We can support Clinton and still despise Bush. Some of us are mature enough to see beyond this hatred and recognize Clinton is simply trying to help those poor souls in the Gulf Coast. If he needs to associate with Bush Sr. to do it...I don't care...and I would venture to say that the victims in the south don't care either.

[Tinoire]

93. But you have no problems seeing Clinton surgically attached to Bush's hip?

And please don't try to excuse it with words like Tsunami and Katrina because this all started way before the Tsunami ever hit.

[SaveElmer]

96. Nice try Tinoire...

It is about the Tsunami and it is about Katrina. Bill Clinton is doing what is right here...simple as that. And if your hatred of Bush blinds you to that fact...then I feel sorry for you!

[FreedomAngel82]

113. So please tell me the fuck why

Barbara fucking Bush called him a son. Explain that to me!

[SaveElmer]

125. I don't care...

American history is replete with examples of mortal political enemies bonding after their political career has ended, the most famous being Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. It is based on shared experience.

As to what is going through Barbara's "Beautiful" Mind...I don't give a shit!!!

[tx_dem41]

138. Someone actually cares what Barbara Bush says??

Wow....possibly time to unplug a bit and clear the mind.

[Tinoire]

149. Going to football games together was about the Tsunami?!

Not unless they had a crystal ball. Boy do I feel sorry DLC supporters so blinded by love of the status quo that they can't even answer a direct question without trying to warp it.

Nice lame try so let's try again Elmer! When did Clinton, Bush and his new mother Barbara, start their little love festival? Or did you miss all those stories in LBN and GD? For some reason I don't think you missed them at all.

[SaveElmer]

160. And again...here is my answer...

I DO NOT CARE!!!

Simple?

[Tinoire]

182. That part has been painfully obvious so why the spin?

Why the warped pretense that the partnership has anything to do with the Tsunami?

Why not just come out and say it's ok with you instead of trying to spin the issue?

[tx_dem41]

134. Of course this statement makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever...

but you already knew that.

[howmad1]

So why the hell doesn't he do it on his own?

Why in hell does he need to associate himself with the the bush crime family? Imagine how much more respect he would have gained by teaming up with Al Gore. Oh, I get it, does he ever owe Hillary for those blow jobs. He's an A number one phony.

[SaveElmer]

81. I was going to answer your post with reason...

But then I saw you Bj comment and decided to tell you to just crawl back in your hole!!!

[LynneSin]

179. The post is beyond rude it's fricking innaccurate

Gore didn't want Clinton's help and picked Joe Lieberman, a democrat who voted to impeach Clinton, in order to distance himself from all things Clinton.

Fucking burns me up that anyone would blame Clinton for Gore's failure. Al just had to ask and Clinton would have campaigned up a storm for him but Gore choose otherwise!

[Mr_Spock]

84. Yeah, as if hearing it from Freepers isn't enough, now we have to hear it

here. :(

Some people will always be miserable sonofabitches. That's all I can think of when I see these stupid Clinton bashing threads and all the DUFreepers piling on - "yeah, me too". Fucking mindless morans :D

[FreedomAngel82]

115. Sorry hon but I'm a realist

I look at the facts and I look at what is in my fucking face. I never would've imagined the day where Barbara and George Bush would call a democrat a child of their's! EXPALIN!

[MadeinOhio]

12. Got that right....I wonder if he really is good or not..

[DoYouEverWonder]

13. Most people don't get it - what Clinton is up to here

I didn't either until today but now I think I do.

If Clinton hadn't befriended Poppy and Babs, Clinton would be on the sidelines for this emergency. Instead Clinton is now front and center and is leading while Poppy and Dimson are off doing photo ops. If Clinton hadn't been playing kissy face with the Bush's for the last year do you think they would have let him anywhere near a camera? Have you seen Carter lately?

Plus Clinton has got Bush by the balls. Now that their pals, Poppy can't play half his games with his business buddies as easily. I think Clinton outmaneuvered them in his own brilliant way.

Now watch what happens over the next couple of weeks. More and more DEMS are going to come out of hiding and take back control. It's already started in LA and we're winning some big battles there. It's going to start tomorrow in Congress, when the DEMS walk in with their Recovery Plan (See KOS for the text) and over the weekend, former Clinton officials started popping up all over the place, from Al Gore flying in to rescue people to the M$M, where they are starting to get slotted again for discussion about the disaster.

We've jumped the river folks, we are going to take back our country. BushCo can no longer hold us back.

[magnolia]

40. EXACTLY!

I am so glad he is involved. It makes me feel better about the whole thing. And I'm glad he's there by "invitation". If he'd gotten involved on he's own he'd get criticism from all sides. This way...he can be out there, being who he is, and nobody can complain about him or accuse him of being self-serving or trying to get attention...whatever.

Koko01:

Keep in mind...African Americans love this man. Having him involved must mean the world to them. And he's doing an incredible thing. THAT'S WHAT MATTERS!

But...you're more concerned about the fact that he didn't respond exactly the way you wanted him to. He would have looked just great if he would have started trashing Bush the minute he opened his mouth that very first day...right? Cause that would have made you happy. He's better than that!

[FreedomAngel82]

117. Wait and see

Just wait and see. If it's the end of this year and he's still yucking it up with the Bush's then that'll show you. So why is Hillary Clinton saying we should stay in Iraq eh?

[DemBones DemBones]

146. Sounds way too much like all the "Kerry is playing chess"

posts of last summer and fall. Any day now. . .

[anitar1]

157. Do people know that Clinton was a register Repug at one time?

Why did he switch? Saw an opportunity? Hilary is also from a ramily of repugs. I don't know if she was a registered repug at one time, did not research it. Clinton was not a friend to a lot of us--WTO and NAFTA. does anyone remember?

[DoYouEverWonder]

177. Got proof?

Or do you just like parroting Rove talking points?

[Mend]

18. If you read any book on Christianity, Buddhism, psychology

etc., you will find that Bill Clinton is behaving exactly as advised by Christ, Gandhi, the Dali Lama, and all the shrinks. We are to work with what we have to accomplish the job, and learn not to project our anger and be judgmental. I have gotten nowhere yet with this but I admire that Clinton is trying to be a better person than I will ever be.

[SaveElmer]

19. You sold me...

Though that wasn't too hard as it is clear Clinton is looking at the country first and everything else second right now.

[Andromeda]

37. Yes, you have gotten somewhere with this.

I believe Bill Clinton IS trying to be the best person he can be and there are some diehard Clinton-haters out there who will not give him a chance.

As far as I'm concerned they are missing the boat on this by criticizing him unnecessarily instead of giving him credit for having a good heart.

In some way I think Bill Clinton is trying to give something back to the people who supported him unconditionally when he was going through the impeachment fiasco.

As you know they called President Clinton the "first black president."

[OKDem08]

86. I have to say too

that I see Clinton in a different light now. Not in a disparaging way--I think it takes a big person to befriend (?) those who were instrumental in & attempting to destroy him. I see him as rising above politics for a noble cause. Anyone else would prob hold a life-long grudge.

[blossomstar]

148. best post on Clinton yet... I agree.

[Andromeda]

185. Exactly.

Clinton is trying stay above the fray. He's been involved in humanitarian works since he left office and he's probably really worked on trying to rise above his anger feelings at those who tried to bring him down.

I don't think he's doing it for Hillary like some people have accused him of. I believe he's just a genuinely caring individual who wants to do some good.

[burythehatchet]

127. here are two quotes from Gandhi

that I coincidentally posted on a thread earlier.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4654617

Non-cooperation with evil is a sacred duty.


You assist an evil system most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees.
An evil system never deserves such allegiance. Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil.
A good person will resist an evil system with his or her whole soul.

Therefore, I disagree with your assertion as it relates to Bapuji.

[GoBlue]

22. I think the name of their fund tells...

the importance of things. First, Second and Third.

Bush-Clinton Katrina Fund
www.bushclintonkatrinafund.org

[SaveElmer]

24. Yes and I'm sure the victims are really concerened

About what it is called...

[KoKo]

26. Bush-Clinton Katrina Fund....n/t

[napi21]

27. You're missing the whole point of what BC is doing!

I know, I don't like to see him hanging with the enemy either, but listen to what he says and does! Did you hear his interview on CNN this afternoon? He said the Gov't FAILED it's people!

There's another post here on DU that asked "Do you mean Bush?"

Class act ex-presidents do not speak against current Presidents, and BC is a class act. He didn't need to say Bush failed you! Anyone who listens knows that's exactly what he meant!

You're reading too much of your own emotion into this association thing.

[OrlandoGator]

28. Clinton didn't support Gore? It was kinda the other way around, bud.

Gore wanted to distance himself from Lewinskygate as much as possible and told Big Dog to stay off the campaign trail.

[elcondor]

33. During the campaign, I will concede that BUT

during the impeachment itself, Gore stood by Clinton. When it became apparent that fraud was happening in Florida that, if it wasn't stopped, would cause Gore/Democrats to lose the White House, Clinton should have stood by Gore like Gore stood by him. Just my opinion ...

[LynneSin]

180. Yeah, what for Gore to show his respect for Clinton by picking Lieberman

Gore picked the one democrat who was anti-Clinton, who voted for the Clinton impeachement.

Gore said "fuck you bill" by picking Joe Lieberman as his Vice President. Clinton has no blame in what happened in Florida - he was told to not get involved with Gore's campaigned and Clinton did just that!

[Pepperbelly]

29. same old shit, different day ...

Your "millions" can't even elect a fucking Senator. Give me a break.

I am personally as sick of DUers who chicken-little every little fucking thing. So you go raise a billion dollars for the flood victims, hot shot. Are you up for it?

Reading your vitae, I figure you ought to be able to raise it since you so vigorously object to Clinton raising the money. I cannot believe that I am actually hearing an adult complain about this.

[SaveElmer]

30. Not hard to believe around here lately...

Unfortunately...

[kikiek]

38. It is very Rove like anyways to have Bush put Clinton on the spot to

raise money. He wouldn't be able to say anything. Now the left is attacking Clinton for it too. For Rove it is like having your cake and eating it too. Clinton is critizing however. Didn't shut him up like they thought it would. The bottom line has to be whatever needs to be done to help the residents of NO, and then go for the Bush clan's incompetence.

[magnolia]

55. HUH?

Put Clinton on the spot to raise money????? Are we talking about the same Clinton...former president, Bill Clinton. I can't imagine him wanting to do anything BUT raise money for these people!

I'm sure he didn't spend half a second wondering what Rove was up to.

He's going to do and say what he thinks is right...without worrying about Rove, the Bushes or us!

[burythehatchet]

141. is he prevented from raising money without hobnobbing

with Satan and his spawn?

[CatWoman]

169. Thank you Richard

Thank you

This post is fucking stupid.

This shit gets real old.

[B Calm]

31. I witnessed Pres Clinton today attack the right-wing spin machine

and placed the blame of this quagmire in New Orleans squarely on the back of the federal government!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. I did, too.

[Mr_Spock]

44. Funny, so did I.

I wish I could ignore this thread - damned level 3 crap :(

[never_get_over_it]

50. Which is exactly why I am beginning to come around

a bit on this chummy chummy stuff with the Bush family. It has made me sick that he is so chummy with them and Hillary's distinct move to the right - it has been all about Hillary's run for the Presidency - but if Bill Clinton will call them on these mistakes as he did a bit today and not enable this criminal administration to get away with this atrocity then I am glad he has been called in and will be the first to say so

Actually I was just thinking given that even when I loved Bill Clinton - and by the way I don't hate him now - just see him a little differently than before - but I have always recognized that he is one of the world's biggest opportunist - so here is a suggestion Bill take this opportunity to pound the shit out of this administration because I know that most of America will agree with you - and advise your wife to get on the band waggon - I have heard of very few people who are not furious about this situation. Now there is an opportunity for you Mr and Mrs Clinton

[stevedeshazer]

32. I love you.

That is all.

:)

[KoKo]

70. See post #62

:hug:

[peacetalksforall]

34. KoKo + I nearly feel like you. I'm holding out hope and also hoping

that I won't hurt anymore.

I followed every word written or stated by Conason and Lyons and and all the others. I wanted to be a defender and I talked and listened and talked for hours in defense of them.

I fully developed my contempt for the right wing. Not that I wanted to put all my faith in people I didn't really know, but because the right wing was acting in the most cruel un-American way that I could have ever imagined. I was shocked that there army was so exquisitely orchestrated and I despised the depth of sewer evil that came from all the Kelly Anns, the Ariannas, the Barbara Olsons, the Coulters, and all the men and the endless preaching of Bill Bennett and the Grover Norquists and John Funds and all the people from the Mellon-Scaife and Rutherford battalions. The country had NEVER SUNK so low. And I was naturally and justifiably for the Clintons because I knew what was happening was wrong and I knew the orchestrated army had to be wrong.

In the back of my mind, I wonder if there wasn't some alliance before the presidency of Clinton, and the whole thing was some act of betrayal and revenge as it always is with the right wing.

They do people in that they know well and that they hardly know.

Time will tell.

I want to believe that the Clintons know what they are doing.

Duers - this is more about me than it is another Bill or Hillary bashing. If we had a password forum - I'd limit my comments to it.

[KoKo]

71. I know...see post #62

It's so hard...slogging through all this..

[Barkley]

35. I would only add... Clinton's finest day was when he was impeached

Because on that day he stood up to the right-wing Republicans and refused to resign.

That was the aim of the whole Lewinsky scandal -- remove Clinton from office.

Clinton's approval rating was 68% the day he was impeached - his finest hour! The public could see the hypocracy of the Republican strategy and supported the president.

[KoKo]

43. I know...I cheered and rooted for him...that he showed them up by

carefully parsing what he did which if Bush had done it he would have declared what he did "National Security" and Rove and the rest would have found a way to spin everything in his favor.

Bush has been caught in all kinds of illegalities...but he gets away with it.

But, Clinton had enough public approval when he left office he could have served for another term if he was allowed to.

He could have been the leader for a party sorely lacking in strong charismatic leadership these days...but he chose to ally himself with the Bushies? No amount of Buddist sainthood can explain this to me...or to many other. I don't see him as Gandi...I used to ...but not now. I see him as "SELLOUT." If he truly wants to get back into the WH through Hillary ...it seems both of them could have stood up for what we thought they believed in and not become part of the problem. :shrug: that's what I think...and it's obviously not what many others think.

[never_get_over_it]

56. No his resignation was not the aim of the impeachment

the aim was to bring this Government to a freaking hault and weaken Clinton to ensure that he would not be successful with his agenda. Did you know that the year of the impeachment the ONLY legislation that was passes was to rename National Airport to Ronald Reagan National Airport....that was the goal - they knew he would never be "convicted" and removed and they knew given his personality that he would NEVER NEVER NEVER have resigned

[applegrove]

41. Don't you get it? Bill is undercover. He is saving the country.

[LoZoccolo]

42. "WE WILL BE BETTER THAN YOU"

No you won't. Any group of people you can find who are willing to split with the Democratic Party because they got angry that Bill Clinton is helping to raise funds for hurricane victims with people across the aisle is likely to find other things to fight with with other over. If you don't believe me, go over to that other liberal message board for people who don't feel they can express themselves fully here and look at how they treat each other when they disagree about something.

[KoKo]

46. I truly believe the Dem Party has a bad split that grows larger every time

there's what many of us see as a "sell out."

I'm not whistling up my butt here. I'm active in my state...

[Gloria]

45. I was OK with joint tsuanmi relief, but not the boating with Poppy

Initially, he backed up the excuse that Bush had about "not anticipating." That was not necessary and just served to muddy the water. His sit down with CNN was a step in the right direction, but he has to really decide for once and for all how far the praise should go.

I would have preferred he worked through his Foundation, solo.....Jimmy Carter and Habitat for Humanity will do great things without excusing Bush. Al Gore, god bless him, airlifting people out, working hard, not doing anything for the press--in fact, sensitive to the fact that they may accuse him of something AWFUL.

Clinton doesn't look very well and he's supposed to go to Asia. He should reexamine what he is doing with the Bush's while he is there.

I keep wondering if the post-op effects of clouded thinking are the cause of this... It's one thing to offer support, but this tag team with Poppy is getting to me...

[journalist3072]

47. For the 1000th time...

Can we PLEASE stop this berating President Clinton over the head for raising funds with George H.W. Bush?

It is not about either one of them at this point. They don't matter.

It is about helping displaced Americans who have IMMEDIATE needs. They are what matter right now.

And President Clinton is simply trying to help those individuals.

[Bluebear]

48. The point is that he doesn't have to tie himself to Bush I to do so.

Clinton has sufficient credentials to do it on his own. Doesn't he?

[journalist3072]

53. Yes, however.....

I believe that President Clinton is such a patriot (unlike the Repugs who claim to be patriots).

And I think that he feels like whenever a sitting President asks him to do something good for the country (no matter what President that is), then he is going to do it.

Again, I feel like he's not thinking of politics now. He's thinking of all those displaced Americans, point blank.

[Mr_Spock]

136. He is a patriot and an honorable man, unlike Bushco

He can keep his enemies close and pat them on the back - in the old days we knew he was pulling one over on them - now we seem to have forgotten that - not you , just some of the hyperactive delusional angry people here lately. Like spending time hating Clinton is good for our party. :eyes"

[journalist3072]

181. I think President Clinton represents TRUE Christian values

Such as "loving thine enemies" and "blessing those that curse you."

That's why I have such respect for him.

[SaveElmer]

57. They are going after big corporate donors...

Most of whom are Republican...a bipartisan approach will have better results.

[magnolia]

66. You mean like Gore.

He went on his own to take patients to a Tennessee Hospital. How much air time did he get? I've been watching TV non-stop and I never even saw it, I heard about it here!

Clinton has been raising huge amounts of money for Africa...how much air time does he get???

Get real...if he wasn't involved in this by invitation, you wouldn't even know he was involved. When did credentials ever matter!

There's nothing wrong with raising money quietly...but let's face it, he can do better if he's out there in the public eye. And when he has the microphone he can speak out....which he has been doing.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

88. That's cold man.

[Mr_Spock]

123. Yeah, I'm feeling green blooded lately

I'm getting tired of all the eating of our own here at DU now that Bush hasn't been forced to resign over his handling of Katrina. Are people's expectations really that far from reality around here? Why pick on Clinton who is simply being a diplomatic former president - he may even help with some marginal leaning right middle of the road people - we do like to have people vote for Democrats don't we?

[Tinoire]

94. Very interesting choice of words there. Wrong target

but interesting choice of words nonetheless.

I'll agree with you on one thing, there are way too many trolls and moles at this site defending that beady-eyed chimp.

[Mr_Spock]

119. I just think we are not helping DU with the self-inflicted wounds

Are we really going to hate Bill Clinton forever because he is doing an honorable thing - even if he has to associate with Satan in the process. GHW Bush isn't THAT evil, and the people in the disaster area aren't evil either. Why is it such a bad thing to have party leaders being diplomatic - we may even earn some votes from people who aren't DU'ers. But we don't want the people in the middle do we?

[Tinoire]

151. That's a nice response and what you say I would have believed 2 years

ago but no more.

I have for 2 years watched Clinton stab traditional non-DLC Democrats in the back and then I went and examined his little wars, his trade policies and came away so disgusted that it's a wonder I still cling to any hope for this party.

Bill Clinton is not being diplomatic. He's carrying Bush's water on this just as he does for the war.

And I do strongly beg to differ. George Bush IS that evil. What do you call tens of thousands dead if not evil? A catastrophic success?

[KoKo]

97. Mr_Spock ....are you calling DU'ers here on this thread "Freepers?"

just want to be clear because it's against the DU rules to call out other DU'ers. I didn't hit alert on you...but I will. If you are calling me a freeper, I definitely will. :shrug:

[Mr_Spock]

114. lol - I'll tell you what - if you feel like it applies to you then alert

by all means. I made a point and I think it is clear - attacking Bill Clinton makes us no better or different than Freepers who blame him for all the evils of the world. I thought we were better than that.

[FreedomAngel82]

122. LOL

I'm a freeper because I'm looking at what is going on and I'm asking question? GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK AND GROW THE HELL UP! I'm allowed to ask question's. I'm allowed to ask why the hell Barbara Bush calls Clinton a son and Poppy Bush claiming Clinton is the son he's never had. EXPLAIN THAT ONE!

[Mr_Spock]

128. lol - I'm not going to get caught up in the silly banter from old fools

like Bush senior and Babs. I just don't see the purpose of beating the crap out of Clinton - we laugh here daily at how Freepers blame Clinton for everything and won't take responsibility for anything, and now we are beating up Clinton because he is doing something honorable and being a diplomat - like he always was. This is his personality - why are people suddenly surprised. We all get into awkward situations with our enemies at times and we put the best face on it that can - it's not like he's a Republican now for God's sake!

[SaveElmer]

98. That is correct unfortunately...

It is becoming a place where a defense of Clinton is seen as a defense of Bush. It really is childish!

[Mr_Spock]

109. Tell me about it

Just because one Democrat has the ability as an ex-President to be a diplomat, we rip him a new one because we hate Bush so much.

Whatever - I guess we're with the Freepers now who attack him for everything that has gone wrong in the world since the creation. How many times have we done this to our leaders - it really pisses me off and it's SO unnecessary.

[FreedomAngel82]

124. You want to know what is childish?!

YOU! YOU'RE NOT LETTING SOMEONE QUESTION AND RANT AND ASK QUESTION'S! IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT DON'T FREAKIN READ IT! BUT DON'T TELL ME TO SHUT UP AND DON'T TELL ME I SHOULD TREAT CLINTON LIKE A GOD!

[SaveElmer]

130. FreedomAngel...

I am only asking the initial poster to back up his rather stunning statement that Bill Clinton was "...ignor this disaster for own political gain via wife's possible run for President."

So far he has not been able to. And he has associated his remarks with those of several prominent authors without aby backup whatsoever. I am trying to find out if he has some super secret information we don't have access to, or is simply another tired anti-Clinton rant.

And I suppose it would be pretty difficult to determine if I don;t like something without reading it first...wouldn't you say?

[FreedomAngel82]

135. All you have to do

is look for yourself. Now I understand the tsunami. Poppy Bush was president before Clinton and Clinton was the last elected president so that does make sense. But what does not make sense is how Barbara and Poppy Bush seemed to have "adopted" Clinton into the family. Why? Why is he hanging around people who have tried to RUIN his career and whom he is as a person? Why would anybody be around that? That's like a wife being beaten and returning to the husband to make love to her right after a fight. See what I'm saying?

[Mr_Spock]

143. It's called being a REAL Christian, a better man, keeping you enemy close

I'm surprised that people are not allowing themselves to be intelligent at this time. I hate Bush, I kinda hate GHW Bush (I think he's irrelevant), I hate Babs (cause she's a hater) and I love Clinton because he was the best president in my lifetime, is charismatic, extremely intelligent and a good person. Is it wrong to feel differently about different people who associate with each other? I try not to lump people together based on who they associate during times of national crisis or other catastrophe - I hope others here can someday too.

[SaveElmer]

144. Not really!

First off...Bush did not have any direct hand in the impeachment.

Second, Bush 41 and Clinton have been spending enormous amounts of time together on the Tsunami relief, including long overseas flights. The story I heard is that Clinton gave up the only bed on the plane taking them to asia, and that Bush 41 found CLinton sleeping on the floor the next morning. Clinton is basically a respectful person, and I suspect has endeared himself by his good grace.

I wouldn't put any more stock in it than that!

[Andromeda]

186. Could you please give me a link?

I want to read where it is written that Clinton was "adopted" by the Bushes.

Clinton is just a better person than some us. He is able to rise above his personal feeling for the good of those who need help.

[Mr_Spock]

131. "It is becoming a place where a defense of Clinton is seen as a defense of

Bush"

Yup, that's like calling Clinton a God.


:eyes:

[FreedomAngel82]

137. Give me a freakin break

Everytime anybody question's Clinton's motives people automatically tell the person to shut up. Sorry hon but I'm allowed to question whomever I feel like it! If you don't like it: don't read it!

[Mr_Spock]

140. I'm allowed to defend my idol - best President in my lifetime

from attacks from people who are simply angry at Bush and are willing to destroy anybody who associates with him. Since Clinton is an honorable man, he is an easy target and we have easier access to him. I just think it's not a good use of our anger and a waste of time.

Bash away, but you are hurting the feelings of thousands of DUers in the process - don't expect not to be challenged - especially when threads can't be hidden at this time...

[Tinoire]

54. Add my name too. n/t

[Beelzebud]

58. Bill Clinton - Associate of the Bush Crime Family

[KoKo]

62. Some Old Time DU'ers understand what I say...for those of you who feel

Clinton has a "plan or a strategy" there are those of us who have heard that through three elections from our Main Stream Democrats. And, in Baseball it's "Three Strikes and You are Out."

For me, and many others here it's been a long slog, and we've given time and money believing, believing...trusting, having faith, hoping and waiting.

And every time we've seen stuff shoved under the rug...voting machine corruption, scandal after scandal in our whole business structure..the companies we work for honestly having CEO's and the top management shown as corrupt liars and theives and getting a slap on the wrist. We are lucky to have jobs today....they tell us..they want us to believe.

Our whole political system is corrupt...but there's a plan ...a strategy that if most Americans just keep quiet and trust and believe will all be revealed. We need to pray more...trust in Bush's Karma biting him in the ass..remember Gandi and just know that things are going to work out.

Well...in the meantime, some of us feel that working for a new and better future, and carving out a new direction where Corporate Crookery, Cronisim in Government and Private Industry and Jobs, Health Care and a living wage and a right to expect some amount of security against disaster whether it's financial, weather related or terrorism will come from our tax dollars.

Invading Iraq and waging endless war to support Democracy while CEO's make four times the salary they did ten years ago...and wages don't increase for workers, and folks are downsized, outsourced and thrown into rubbish piles or drowned isn't what we think our tax money and support should go to.

Without the voice of the Black Caucus many of us would have no hope that anyone even gives a crap about us. Katrina has shown us that in the end...No One Does, anyway because Black Caucus has no power of investigation.

[stevedeshazer]

120. I still love you.

As to what you say about old-timers, let me just add that a lot of us have been politically aware and active for DECADES, and we know what we're talking about through sore feet and hard asses.

Clintonism, though much preferable to Bushism, is just another manifestation of the right. He moved rightward every year from his election in 1992.

Clintonism isn't good enough now. I fucking demand MORE.

I want NAFTA repealed. I want a balanced budget (a right-wing talking point less than TEN YEARS ago), and I want a universal health care plan.

No way does Hillary get these things done.

And the Black Caucus will have my undying gratitude for telling the fucking truth straight up. My own liberal congressman has said little or nothing to date, and he is a DLC supporter. Fuck that.

[Algorem]

63. anyone know an address to send Clinton U.S. mail?

[KoKo]

74. Probably Bill Clinton c/o DLC at DNC....

:-(

[burythehatchet]

73. As I drove home from Florida today

I composed the same post in my mind, almost to the word.

[MadeinOhio]

78. Don't say that....

You'll be seen as a Clinton basher and that's not right to criticise.:sarcasm:

By the way, its possible he is on both sides.

[Bluebear]

79. Yes, it's all fluff.

:crazy:

[SaveElmer]

75. Beyond all the fluff in your message, it boils down to one statement

"How could you do this Bill Clinton. How could you ignore this disaster for your own political gain via your wife's possible run for President."

I would like to know specifically how you know this to be true? Have you talked to him? Are you intimates with his friends? Was there a tape?

How do you know he is not doing this because he wants to help those poor souls in N.O. and Mississippi.? What evidence do you have that he is doing this for the benefit of Hillary's Presidential run?

What special insight do you have that we don't?

Also, you associate yourself with Joe Conason in your opening sentance. Does he feel like you do? Has he published his feelings about Clinton's efforts here? I have looked on Salon and seen nothing? Is it published elsewhere?

[KoKo]

83. Before you say "fluff." Go to Salon.com archives and look up the articles

from 1998 and on. Actually there are quite a few earlier articles than 98...but I would start there. You will see Gene Lyons, Murray Waas, Joe Conasan and links to Eric Alterman and a few others who followed what I'm talking about.

You might not have been into what was going on during the Clinton Presidency...and that's why you didn't understand my post. Those who've been here since Selection 2000 would know but I understand that many other DU'ers who've joined since then might not have been involved with this as long as some of us.

Peace...

[KoKo]

89. BTW....here's a good start: "Hunting of the President" Joe Conason

which gives a good background. But the Salon links are the best. Conason and Lyons compiled all their articles to put out a book and there's movie you can rent or buy that was made from the book if you don't want to slog through Salon archives:



A quick Google for you:

The Hunting of the President (2004)
Gene Lyons and Joe Conason's book THE HUNTING OF THE PRESIDENT had no photos of
the major players, a real shame when you have a huge cast and no way to keep ...
www.imdb.com/title/tt0391225/ - 46k - Cached - Similar pages


Salon.com | The hunt is on
That's why the "Hunting" movie, which documents many of the seamier ... Join Joe
Conason along with Ann Richards, David Talbot and others on the Salon ...
www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2004/06/18/hunting/ - 41k - Cached - Similar pages

[SaveElmer]

90. I know Joe Conason has been a consistent defender of Clinton...

I listen to him on the radio every week, I read his articles. He defended Hillary recently on the Klein book. He has appeared with Clinton on Al Franken's show. And of course I watched and loved "Hunting of the President". I love Joe Conason.

I am not questioning his past defense of Clinton...I am asking has he changed now, as you seem to have. I see no evidence of that. At least in the articles on Salon.

And you did not address my point, which was if you had any special insight to Clinton's motivation's with regard to his fundraising efforts here!

[KoKo]

101. You'd have to know the background but to answer your question

Bill Clinton's motives are to get his wife elected at all costs and whatever sacrifice to what he may be about. Or, as some have felt all along that his only allegence is to the DLC.

Now you can say you agree with the DLC (which I at one time way back at the end of Poppy's Administration, did too) But, I've learned since what the DLC has become and how it's tied to the Bushies and Corporate Control of the Democratic Party that's taken over.

As to his other motives...well I think he may be trying to redeem his Presidency from the Monica scandal and the Bushies are the way to do it.
That's my disappointment. And, this country can't go on any longer with the Bushies and PNAC/NEOCON/DLC leadership. It's no different from the Repugs at this point. And, we've lost so much without strong leadership.

He didn't need to do this...and neither did Hillary...but their choice seems to be very different from the Progressive Democratic ideals that many of us want to focus the party back to.

[SaveElmer]

102. Well I'm sorry that just doesn't answer the question...

And I must say a rant as vitriolic as yours should not rely on backgound unknown by most. If there is necessary background you should provide it.

As to the main point, you are expressng an opinion based on what, I cannot tell. That is your right. But am I correct in assuming then you have no special inside information as to Bill Clinton's motivations for working as he is to get relief to the south ? That your opinion is not based on information no one else has?

[KoKo]

105. SaveElmer....you weren't looking for an answer to your question.

As is obvious from your replies. :D

[SaveElmer]

111. Well again my questions are simple...

And you seem unwilling to give a straightforward answer...

Here they are again...

1. Do you have any evidence at all, unavailable to the rest of us, to back up your claim that Bill Clinton is working with George H.W. Bush on Hurricane Katrina relief solely as a way to bolster the candidacy of his wife for President? Or is your view of this simply your opinion based on what you perceive as a betrayal by Clinton?

2. Does Joe Conason or any of the other authors you mentioned believe as you do that Bill Clinton has sold his soul for this purpose? If so, can you point me to any published proof?

[MadeinOhio]

150. He has. Look at his links and at salon.com. n/t

[SaveElmer]

158. He provided me to links to "Hunting of the President"

Which I have seen and read...doesn't answer any of the questions I asked him.

[Inland]

107. All you do is restate your argument on "motives", and it IS bullshit.

"Bill Clinton's motives are to get his wife elected at all costs and whatever sacrifice to what he may be about"

That was the very same premise that the earlier poster questioned. All you did was repeat it.

Having established to your own satisfaction that everything he does is for the basest of purposes, you can't see any good faith in anything he does. He could pet a puppy tomorrow and its just to get his wife elected to an office she hasn't even declared for. No, he couldn't just be petting a puppy because he LIKES puppies, just as he couldn't be aiding in hurricane relief because he thinks its the right thing to do, because in your premise he has already thrown all that overboard for Hillary.

So what the fuck did Clinton ever do to you for you to hate him, distrust his motives, and presume his evil intent? Maybe it was that he was a good president, whichheonlydidinordertogethilllaryelectedorforhislegacyandnotbecausehegivesashitaboutamericaoranyothergoodornobleideal?

Fuck this, I would take a single Bill Clinton over all the bloviating gasbags in this forum or in this country who think a FUCK YOU is in the same league as a real leader. YOu want someone to tell Bush to fuck off, those are a dime a dozen. You want someone to lead america, feed the DPs, educated the children, rebuild our defense and bring peace, you had better look to leaders like Clinton who deserve better than that drivel.

[ShaneGR]

91. Pfft... what a dumb rant

Clinton is an ex-President, it's perfectly fine (even commendable) for him to be raising money with another ex-President trying to HELP THE SITUATION and HELP PEOPLE GET THROUGH THIS CATASTROPHE. This is NOT the time for politics when it comes to him. He doesn't give a shit what we on the left or those on the right think about it. He's trying to help by raising money for the VICTIMS. Period. Did you rant when he did EXACTLY the same thing for the Tsunami victims last year? What about when he and Bob Dole raised millions for the families who lost loved ones on 9/11. Didn't think so.

[raysr]

95. If you look at the BIG

PICTURE the Repukes would never have gotten ANYWHERE if Bill could've kept his pants zipped! He brought down the the Dem party.

[burythehatchet]

116. I don't agree with that

their intent was to hamstring him for the term of his presidency, they accomplished that. That fact that they put through articles of impeachment was just a bonus for them.

[Gregorian]

99. The faucets in Washington run of koolaid.

Years ago, in some of my first posts, I managed to get whole forums angry with me. But for whatever reasons, some of us knew what some of us now are discovering. I think it's easy to confuse the fact that Clinton was a hell of a reprieve, with being a hell of a president.

I was thrilled when I walked into the office the morning after Clinton won the election in 1992. There was a lot he didn't do. I suppose that will have to suffice for my explanation, since I am not able to put words and facts to this. Some of us run on instinct. Maybe it was the continuation of the drug war and sanctions against Iraq. Maybe not pardoning Peltier. Running on instinct has it's weaknesses. That's why I'm at DU- to learn the facts.

I never used the term, liberal. I just know what America could be.

We've been ratcheting to the right. We have a long way to go before this country begins to treat it's people the way it should.

[KoKo]

103. Beautifully said...thanks... What America Could Be...almost the words

of John F. Kennedy who brought hope to so many with a positive can do attitude. That was the promise Clinton gave us. That he could join with those who took away his promise is what's so devastating. And, the possibility that he may have always been part of them is the darkest and most dreadful possibility.

His behavior lately seems to lend itself to the darker thought...:shrug:

He has always been popular with Democrats he didn't need to chum up to the Bushies to redeem himself. And, if he thought he did, he isn't the person I originally thought he was.

Hillary has turned out to be much more conservative that I ever thought she would be. Hawkish on Iraq War and her constant comments which many of us find offensive on the left are flags that Clintons are both going in a different direction than many in this country can deal with given what we've been through.

But...that's my opinion after sorting through this stuff and reading everything here and elswhere and living through it all. :shrug:

[earth mom]

100. Great Rant! Agree 100% eom

[mandyky]

104. Yeah, I loved BC as Prez,

but all this GOP sucking up has me as anybody but Hillary, and quite ticked at BC. I also won't donate to Red Cross because a GOP shill runs that too. No more support for those who agree with GWB and the GOP unless it is something like water is wet and the sky is blue.

Nope, I am done. Sorry and wish ya well, but y'all have hooked your cart to the wrong horse!

[FreedomAngel82]

106. It definitley plays with you psychologically

I don't get it either. And I remember Clinton's speech at last year's convention. He hardly ever slammed Bush. It was like he just went out there to show support for Kerry/Edwards and all that and remember that McAullife also had ties to the DLC and thus to the Clinton's and they didn't allow any Bush bashing (see Al Sharpton and what he did). *sigh* I still love and miss the Clinton years. I didn't know Clinton didn't campaign any for Gore. How could that be? *sigh* Did Gore ask him to campaign? Well hell Gore shouldn't have had to ask because he was Clinton's VP!

[Catt03]

110. Read the following

Bush is using Clinton and he is allowing it for Hillary

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1755901

:puke:

[SaveElmer]

118. Means nothing...

It is an op-ed piece with no actual evidence for his assertions...no more valid than an opinion posted here.

And even Nagourney notes that saving lives was the primary motivation!

[KoKo]

133. Trolling through a thread looking to disrupt is evidence of something

that might be valid considering the amount of posts you have asking for answers to questions that you really don't want answers to.

Sincerity might also be lacking in the effort.

[SaveElmer]

139. Disrupt?

Was the post meant as a private communication? Wasn't it meant to stimulate discussion. I read the Nagourney op-ed. It is just that, an opinion piece. Taking pieces of information and developing a theory as to what they may mean. Nagourney chose to take a purely political tack on it. I disagree...he has no more insight into motivations than anyone else. My opinion, one that even Nagourney acknowledges, is that Clinton is primarily motivated by a desire to see aid delivered to those in New Orleans. If a political benefit accrued by that, I don't think he would be upset. But I do not believe, as Nagourney, or you, or the poster of this article, believes, that Clinton has sold his soul simply to get his wife elected.

At least this poster did not associate herself with a well known author without some kind of evidence. She apparently is of this opinion, and show's us that Nagourney is too.

[tx_dem41]

112. The criteria for liking/disliking someone around here seems to ...

be dependent on how much vitriol one can consistently spew and how long someone can keep throwing bombs.

Neither of these two things are characteristics of a good leader. Anyone ever notice that? Irony? Hello?

[Bluebear]

121. More 'around here' business...

I notice that when someone expresses disappointment or honestly feeling let down by a political leader, they aren't allowed to express theimselves without being accused of vitriol.

[tx_dem41]

126. You're right....I'm mistaken...this place has been a virtual monk's

cloisters this evening. Just a bunch of level-headed, cool thinking people. :eyes:

[Bluebear]

129. I think the events of the past week have caused enormous stress

If someone is angry with a politician though, I don't see the necessity of belittling the poster's point of view, even if I don't agree with it. Just saying.

[ksilvas]

132. Forget That!

Clinton is a sellout punk, and some times....
I wonder.... if that isn't what he was suppose to be.
Mabey he was always there to "inspire" those that
despise freedom. A mole.

[SaveElmer]

142. Yeah...and here is another example of the reasoned debate

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4653263&mesg_id=4656067

No vitriol here !!!

[ksilvas]

145. Reason, what a lovely dream. and hope. (nt)

[Inland]

166. Mere vitriolic rant get called vitriol, mere ranting. Okay by me.

Don't really see the problem with an accurate characterization, even if the vitriol comes from an "honest feeling".

Some honestly held feelings don't hold water when examined, and the Hate Clinton rants, recycled from the right wing Hate Clinton campaign, are exhibit A of that fact.

[1932]

147. In Graham Greene's book about Omar Torrijos

he writes about a conversation he had after the Panama Canal Treaty was signed. Grahama asked Torrijos what he thought about the far left who began to criticize Torrijos and the treaty as being too moderate.

Torrijos, mind you, was willing to start a guerrilla war over the canal.

Torrijos said the problem with the far left is that if they don't get exactly wha they want, they're not willing to work towards progress with what they'd been given. Instead, they'll tear down the progress that exists so that they can get perfection at some undetermined time in the future.

I don't know what made me think about that.

[Tinoire]

152. He can't Koko. His gun is in Bush's pocket

Nope. Not photoshopped. Straight off Yahoo press pages.


Illustration B: Clinton Welcomes W. to the White House
source: NBC - December 19, 2000

Katrina Tsunami my sweet Black ass.

[MadeinOhio]

155. Now that was harsh.

I don't know what to say. :think:

[Tinoire]

184. I know

but no harsher than the sight of that unphoto-shopped image on my eyes and in my heart. My journey from Clinton's no 1 fan to this was neither easy nor pleasant so yeah, there's some bitterness.

It's like catching your spouse in bed with the elementary school teacher. Do you get mad? Yes. Do you forgive? Usually.

But they continue doing it again and again.

Comes a time you have to go to Divorce Court with feelings of deep betrayal in your heart.

[mopaul]

156. clinton is not coming to our rescue

screw him and his silly wife

[ScreamingMeemie]

159. ...and the whole of the DLC. Honestly...

some people can spin just as well as the RW.

[ProfessorGAC]

164. So Wrong As To Be Barely Worthy Of Further Comment

Sorry, Koko you are WAY off the beam. Would you have him allow further suffering just to make a political point against the loathesome Bush family? If the answer is yes, you are not worth the time it took to write this reply. If the answer is no, just think about that.
The Professor

[Flubadubya]

167. Couldn't Clinton have undertaken something on his own?

Doesn't he have enough clout as former President to be able to pull together resources and cohorts that could make a substantial contribution to the relief effort without having to consort with the Devil himself?

Sorry, but I can actually envision Clinton being able to do far more good on his own, or, perhaps teaming up with someone like President Carter, than to get into bed with the Bush Crime Family on this! Yukk... it is just SO nasty! Oh, and I really do love Bill Clinton, always have, still do. I am from "the place called Hope" (his hometown). I just hate to see him wading around in this cesspool with maggots as "buds". :puke:

[Lost4words]

165. Add my name to this rant. I will never vote clinton!

[MadHound]

168. Oh please, though I hate to say it, get over it already!

Jesus Christ, this is the type of work that former Presidents do. Clinton and Bush joined together form a VERY powerful fund raising team. Clinton works the corporate donors on the left, Trial Lawyers Assoc. etc. while Bush Sr. works the corporate donors on the right, Big Oil, etc. Together, they raise more cash together than they could seperately, so give it a break and let them raise the cash! Eye on the ball people, we've got people who are literally dying for aid, both in this country and abroad, and they don't care who raised that aid, just so long as it gets there.

I find it sickening that people are grouching about the politics of this, WHEN THERE ARE PEOPLE IN NO WHO ARE STILL DYING DUE TO LACK OF AID! Christ, let us put the politics aside until the people are all out of NO, nobody else is dying due to this tragedy, and the victims of Katrina are well sheltered and we can start working on recovery. Until those conditions are met, we got a hell of a lot bigger problems to worry about than who is appearing with whom in order to bring in the big relief bucks. We can worry about the politics of the matter in three months or so, OK.

Oh, and just for you information, I've always been quite critical of Clinton, not for the Monica thing, but for his corporate whore politics. And gee, now here I am having to defend the guy, sheesh!:eyes:

[Beam Me Up]

170. I think what KoKo is expressing is frustration for LACK OF LEADERSHIP

from Democrats on a national level.

I understand that past presidents 'do this' but the problem is, in this instance, we are WAY beyond 'politics as usual'; way beyond Republican vs Democrat or Consesrvative vs Liberal. The neo-con Bush cabal ARE A THREAT TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY*. I can not support anyone who ENABLES THEM and or makes them look legitimate.

*= Both Al Gore and Joseph Wilson have said as much, so don't take my words for it.

[MadHound]

173. Look friend, I agree that Bush is a nation security threat,

I agree that our so called leaders, on both the left and the right are doing a piss poor job of leading these days, but you know what? That doesn't matter right now one fucking bit because people are dying, people are suffering. We can all stand around in a circle jerk firing squad later, but for right now we should put aside the acrimony, the accusations, the finger pointing, and HELP THE PEOPLE OF THE GULF COAST!! Yes, Bush is doing a crappy job, you know it, I know it, the whole fucking country now knows it, but since this is what we're stuck with, then we have to deal with it, work around, over and through it.

If Clinton and Bush Sr. are as successful at raising cash for NO as they were for the tsunami, then good on them. This is not about Clinton/Bush Sr. enabling the Chimp, they're not. They are raising more money together than they can seperately, not for the Chimp, not to make Bushboy look better or further enable him, but to help out the victims of this horrible national tragedy. Don't you get it?

There will be plenty of time to deal with Bushco and politics later, don't worry. All of this is being recorded, and we can get into it once the victims of Katrina are taken care of. But for right now, we all need to do what we can to help, and we all need to keep our eyes on the ball. Don't let what is finally a decently forceful response to this crisis dissolve into nothingness just because you think that we should take a time out to get fucking political over the process. We don't have the time or energy to do so until later.

171. Clinton not riding as high as he used to

Maybe Clinton's behavior has to do with his not being the top dog anymore, and that was what motivated him so much before. He has had heart surgery, his wife may run for president, he isn't as handsome and attractive as he used to be. Some men need to be rising to the top or else they feel lost, and since he already was at the top, he isn't as on fire anymore.

[McCamy Taylor]

175. From "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell" by Blake

The Devil answer'd:...

"'I tell you, no virtue can exist without breaking these ten commandments. Jesus was all virtue, and acted from impulse, not from rules.'"

When he had so spoken, I beheld the Angel, who stretched out his arms, embracing the flame of fire, & and he was consumed and arose as Elijah.

Note: This Angel, who is now become a Devil, is my particular friend; we often read the Bible together in its infernal or diabolical sense, which the world shall shall have if they behave well.

I have also The Bible of Hell, which the world shall have whether they will or no.

One Law for the Lion & Ox is Oppression.


William Blake

[LandOLincoln]

176. Rants like this sicken me, frankly.

I wonder how many of you hotheads have ever stopped to think how comforting Bill Clinton is to a large portion of the globe? How his very presence serves to remind people that George W. Bush is NOT America, that there was a time in the not-so-distant past that we had a president who was competent, compassionate, charismatic and consequently well-loved the world over? Clinton is a walking, talking rebuke to the whole evil cabal.

And BTW, did anyone see how drawn and pale he was? It made me afraid for him. Anyone who thinks this past week of horror--which most likely wouldn't even have come close to happening if he'd still been president and James Lee Witt still in charge of FEMA--hasn't devastated Bill Clinton is...well, seriously lacking in insight is probably the most diplomatic way of saying it.

As for Poppy--I saw him roughhousing with that giggling little kid yesterday, like a grandfather; saw the smiles on the faces of the kid's family. They didn't see Satan's Daddy, or the titular head of the BFEE, when they looked at Poppy Bush. They saw an old white man who tickled their kid's ribs and made them all laugh for probably the first time in a week.

As for Clinton denouncing the Bushes and acting on his own--isn't this country divided enough? Bill Clinton is an elder statesman now, and he's acting like one.

[LynneSin]

178. Ok, now here are some truths about your rant

Clinton never NOT supported Al Gore - Al Gore didn't want his help because he wanted to shy away from the "Clinton" scandal. Hell picking one of the few democrats who voted for impeachment was a major-ass sign that Al Gore wanted no part of Bill Clinton (oh that was Joe Lieberman - he was very critical against Clinton during the impeachment and voted to support it).

As for 'aligning himself with the Bushes' with the fundraiser - he did the same thing with the Tsaumani and at the time he was trying not to make it political. However in light of how horrible it's been Clinton has finally stopped living the 'Code of Presidency' where you do not criticize a sitting president and he has come out and did that.

As much as I respect your rant, I'm disappointed that you would somehow blame him for 2000. Clinton didn't get involved because Al Gore did not want him involved. So if you want to rant about that issue then get the blame on the right person.

I'm proud of Bill Clinton and I respect that he tried to do the right thing and when he realized how miserable it was turning out he spoke up about it