The Looting and Violence in NOLA Was and Is Real

[liberal43110]

Guys, please stop belittling the level of violence and chaos in New Orleans. The violence was real.

I am from New Orleans. My best friend is a social worker in the ER of West Jefferson Medical Center, 1 of 3 hospitals in New Orleans that is still open...and plans to stay open. (See link to Newsweek article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179702/site/newsweek/ )

Civil order broke down immediately and drastically. The EMS workers, many of them military trained, won't go out in the city without guards. Vandalism and violence were rampant, and the chaos remains.

The reports of people shooting at helicopters and carjacking and marauding were not lies perpetuated to smear the local population or to provide an excuse for the Bush administration's complete lack of a response to the the disaster.

Instead, the truth of the matter is that, much like they did initially in Iraq, they didn't respond to the severe security matters on the ground. And they certainly didn't have enough of anything in place to address the situation.

I am outraged, saddened, and ashamed of our country's response to Hurricane Katrina. But that doesn't mean I am going to claim that the media and the administration are lying about the violence that is very, very real there.

Try streaming WWL radio from wwl.com. It's the only local New Orleans radio station that stayed on the air, covering the events as they happened (they were the ones who did that awesome interview with Mayor Nagin). You'll get a better sense of what's going on. This morning they said that either St. Bernard Parish or St. Tammany Parish (can't recall which) officials wanted to announce to the area that looting will not be tolerated, and that the parish deputized 100s of armed locals to maintain order along with parish police.

My friend from the hospital said no one dares leave the hospital without a gun. Three doctors who evacuated to Arkansas are trying to return to work (and live, like everyone else) in the hospital. Each will be armed on the trip.

This is not a conspiracy theory. I believe that the Bush administration was actively involved in 9-11, so I am not afraid to think about conspiracies. But this is not one of them. Rather, the situation in New Orleans is as dire as people say, in every sense: the toxic flooding, the huge oak trees downed on every single street in the city, the water system contaminated, the entire electricity infrastructure gone (I have heard that each and every telephone pole in the city is either down or snapped in half), the fires, and the complete breakdown of civil order among a desperate population who was ignored by our government.

[LisaL]

1. I have no doubt it was and is real. Because the people were

left to their own devices, to fend for themselves. It brings out worst in some people.

[ohio_liberal]

And there were less than 2000 police to maintain order

in a large metropolitan area. That isn't nearly enough.

[Imagevision]

27. Black people = Looters -- White people = Finding Food

[Tyranny_R_US]

2. Thats why we must starve them to death and/or shoot em on sight!

:sarcasm: :puke:

[liberal43110]

4. I know you're being sarcastic..........

And I hope you know that I don't think we should starve them to death. In no way am I defending ANYTHING the federal government has done in response to this hurricane. Every single thing they have done (or haven't done) is disgraceful.

[1932]

3. I don't think anyone doesn't believe there wasn't violence.

But I think a lot of people want to to put it in the right perspective, and I think a lot of people are pointing out that that the evidence of violence is often exaggerated and little of it is first-hand. When you're relying on hearsay, it's hard to put the evidence in the right context.

[RBHam]

5. It was PLAYED up to justify a NAZI-style Martial Law excercise.

NO EXCUASE for not dropping water and food.

NONE!

EVER!!!!

The greatest nation on earth?

[liberal43110]

8. You're right

in that there is no excuse for not dropping food and water. But frankly, the violence was NOT played up. It was real.

[RBHam]

You missed it.

Real time psychological operations.

There is no way a bunch of gang kids could stop the national guard from bringing in food, water or rescuing patients.

No WAY!

Not the greatest Army ever assembled! They had 40 Black Hawks ready, 30 minutesa away.

Give up the canard.

It only helps the Big Lie.

[Pallas180]

6. the ATC says shooting at helicpoters did NOT happen - pilots

are required to report and they had no reports of any such happening..

the article is somewhere here on DU -

along with an article that in the floods of Johnstown and another in
1900 minority atrocities were exagerrated...

I'll find it.

On Edit - search function temporarily turned off -

[Igel]

62. The pilots have to report what they know.

They obviously don't have to report what they don't know.

The report that no shots were reported by pilots can reliably be taken to mean no pilot knew of any shots being fired at them. It cannot be taken to mean that no shots were fired at them. The distinction is not trivial.

But this also does not mean that the reports from people on the of shots having been fired are correct.

[Silverhair]

65. Actually, helicopter pilots won't know if they are being shot at...

unless the 'copter is hit, and sometimes not even then.

Inside a 'copter is a bit noisy, so you don't hear the gunshot. You can't see the bullet go by unless it is a tracer. So you simply don't know you are recieving fire unless you happen to see the guy shooting at you. It is entirely possible that some long psycho may have shot at a 'copter, but I don't think it would have been widespread.

The shooting at the hospital was seen. Some of the medical people saw the guy doing the shooting. No link, watched the interview on CNN.

The gangs and individual criminals are a different question.

[tjdee]

7. Holy fuck are we STILL talking about looting?

:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. The concern here on DU isn't that the violence did or did not occur

but rather WHY it happened. It is a crime that it took FEMA 5 days to get there to start helping people. If they had been there Tuesday, perhaps there would have been less shooting and looting. Desperate people do desperate things.

[expatriot]

10. Of course it is/was real: Not enough security and relief

If there would have been 20,000 armed National gaurdsmen and 2,000 relief semi trucks rolling in the city within 12 hours of the storm there wouldn't have been as much anarchy

[Pallas180]

13. AND - CNN showed 2 young looters with shop.carts-1 white,1 black together!

I happen to be caucasion, but I will not allow this continued
denigrating of an entire portion of society-

FEMA's charter is to declare martial law and lock up in detention camps BLACKS FIRST, then other minorities, then dissidents...you on DU.

As if the scum of the earth like Brown and Bush's cronies are better than any other human being....which of course Bildergerg and Trilateral - which the Bush's belong to - believe.

loook it up

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. thanks for the information

I am listening to blogs from those who are on the scene, and reports like the one you posted. I think that in a large metropolitan area, this type of looting/shooting in a situation like this is to be expected. The thing that I object to is when the media characterizes ALL black people as being looters, etc. I also think using shooting as a reason to do nothing (which is what FEMA did) is criminal.

[stillcool]

12. the article you link to....

doesn't mention any of the 'level of violence' you've heard about. Perhaps you posted the wrong link?

[liberal43110]

18. Guess I didn't explain the purpose of the link

I gave the link for context about the hospital...didn't even remember if it described violence or not...sorry for the confusion.

[cornermouse]

14. I agree.

There are always people who look for a way to capitalize on a disaster. Some use guns, some allow corporations to use them. The military does have some reason to be there. Unfortunately, they appear to have decided to turn in tnto something "useful" instead of just being useful.

[ima_sinnic]

15. the fact that it has happened at all rests squarely on the shoulders of

FEMA. They allowed the situation to get out of control. Had they been doing their jobs in the beginning, of being on top of things at the onset and seeing that everyone was evacuated, none of this would have happened. They are in charge of managing national disasters, this is their baby, I don't care what anyone says about the governor and mayor. At the first sign of a major hurricane one of those incompetent dumbasses should have been on the phone finding out what resources were available where, and when the exact location of strike was better determined, send the vehicles, trains, boats, planes to that area AHEAD OF TIME.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SO SIMPLE! IF ONLY SOMEONE QUALIFIED TO DO THE JOB HAD BEEN THERE! :cry:

[mongo]

16. Thanks for being a voice of reason

When so many just want to make accusations.

I am horribly ashamed at my governments response to this tragedy, but I also realize how hard it must be on the rescue personnel down there.

[NorthernSpy]

22. ... and the people who make the most accusations are the rumor-mongers!

And whenever we debunk one of these accusations ("they attacked the children's hospital! They're sacking and pillaging Lafayette!"), the disappointment from some quarters is palpable.

[NorthernSpy]

17. you are being disingenuous -- no one said there was no crime or disorder

What we are doing is collecting rumors and checking them. So far, the most hysterical stuff has turned out to be false:

The assault on the children's hospital? Never happened. Officials at the hospital have said so.

Hundreds of officers on the police force have turned in their badges? Not according to the chief of police.

The New Orleans refugees were running amok in Lafayette, Baton Rouge, and other cities of refuge? Not according to police reports there.

The relief helicopters were fired upon? Not according to the pilots or the FAA.

The convention center was a lawless no-man's land where the survivors were all busy killing and sodomizing each other? Not according to the National Guard troops who were sent there to "retake" the place.

Hungry blacks had resorted to eating corpses? There's no evidence of this.

Hurricane victims were slitting the throats of babies? There's no evidence of this.


The thing is, a lot of rumors were granted immediate acceptance as fact. Some of us would like to put the record straight.

[annabanana]

23. thank you, corroboration is essential..

Any big city resident know (or suspects) how a vacuum in law enforcement would affect a big city. But also they know what the reasonable limits of this kind of lawlessness would be.

[liberal43110]

38. Lawlessness doesn't have "reasonable limits"

Civil society collapsed, and the government failed to address the situation. Period.

[brentspeak]

36. The Convention Center WAS a lawless no-man's land

The NG troops who were sent in later on weren't present to witness what was going on.

The police had largely stayed away from the area around the New Orleans Convention Center. "People have been raped and murdered in here," said Darlene Joseph, who hoped to provide food and water for her 4-year-old son Vincent by going to the makeshift shelter.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-09-02-neworleanspolice_x.htm

I think we should let the words of the victims themselves set the record straight.

[NorthernSpy]

40. so the anarchy "disappeared" just in time for the Guard to miss it?

Yeah, in a puff of green smoke...

Magic!

:eyes:

You don't think that a person might not be willing to, ah, overstate certain things a just tad in hopes of being evacuated sooner?

[liberal43110]

41. Huh?

The anarchy is still all over the place. The Guard have a presence at the airport and the Superdome and convention center, because the huge crowds had been there. The city and the surrounding areas are not "secured." People are hanging out in their houses, and sometimes in other people's houses. The "violence disappeared" in the few major places where the Guard has a presence.

[NorthernSpy]

43. nope -- see my thread in LBN

link...

[brentspeak]

42. No, I don't

[NorthernSpy]

49. recent rumors: the National Guard slaughtering people for no reason

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N03464940.htm

Do you believe this as much as you believe all the other stuff?

Funny how rumors involving evildoing by the National Guard seem to require "confirmation", but rumors involving evildoing by flood victims don't...

And don't you think mass hysteria might play some role under conditions of great deprivation and uncertainty? It IS a well-known phenomenon, after all.

[brentspeak]

58. All I know is what the witnesses ( victims and NG and cops)

all say. Gangs and lone psychos were stalking, beating, sometimes murdering and raping inside the Superdome and the Convention Center. The reports about "babies" having their throats slit was due to poor semantics; it turns out the woman quoted who used the word "babies" was really referring to teenagers. (She thought of them as babies, children.) There was, however, a seven-year-old who was raped.

The stories I'm reading now about the Astrodome have evacuees saying they're relieved to have greater numbers of police to secure their temporary home. They sure deserve it after having to endure the horrors inside the Superdome and Convention Center.

[Autumn Colors]

19. Just a comment

I believe that it was violent.

a) Am I hallucinating, or didn't I see something in the news about them releasing the whole population of a prison?

and

b) Don't forget every large city has people addicted to drugs. In addition to being starving, dehydrated (which = changed mental state), there was an entire group of people who were going through withdrawal which would make them violent/desperate in that respect, too.

*IF* they were shooting at helicopters, maybe they were thinking there were some kind of drugs on it?

I mean that's just a side note and I'm not saying the MSM might not have exaggerated this, but I do think there had to be some violence going on, just for the above two reasons.

[titoresque]

25. maybe the shooting

wasn't aimed *at* the helicopters but rather signaling the helicopters for rescue?

[NorthernSpy]

29. no pilots reported being fired upon

According to the FAA.

[jus_the_facts]

20. no shit....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=3956844

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=3954289

[CatWoman]

21. so fucking what?

In a similar situation, YOU wouldn't loot?

[stepnw1f]

26. Nah... White People Don't Do Things Like That

They just criticize people who do.....

:mad:

[liberal43110]

28. I'm not talking about mere looting

Of course I would take food and water. I think everyone would. I'm talking about something altogether different.

[NorthernSpy]

30. what do you have to say about the rumors that have proved false?

Something inane about the "fog of war", I'll bet.

:eyes:

[CatWoman]

34. even the tvs, and whatever

WHO GIVES A FUCK?????

[stepnw1f]

24. In Case You Haven't Heard

People are dead and more will die because of the deliberate lack of leadership in DC.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

32. Are you streaming wwl radio now? Someone called in about 3 shootouts

that occured this morning. It is apparently still happening.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberal43110]

37. Yes, people are dead because of the lack of leadership

Agreed 100%. That doesn't mean I am going to pretent that their was a complete and utter collapse of social order in New Orleans.

And don't even try calling me a racist...or assuming that because I am white (which I am) I am blaming the poor black people. Not even close.

A vast majority of the people stranded by their government in New Orleans were desperately poor, black...and peaceful. People helped each other get through an unimaginable situation.

There were also examples of what happens when all civil order is lost and the sitution completely collapses.

[stepnw1f]

51. We Know There Was Looting

So why act like we don't know... like: "Hey Guys? There was looting. It's not an urban myth. We must revisit the "Looters Flame Fest Again"

Yeah right... whatever. BTW - Who said there wasn't looting.

You want to talk about looters? How about price gouging at the gas stations? Or the GOP taxing the poor and giving the wealthiest a free ride? They bilk billions. OK? Does that put your thread into perspective or what?

[6000eliot]

31. I don't think anybody believes they are not real

they just think that there is a bigger story that needs to be covered.

[NorthernSpy]

35. actually, many of the stories we've heard AREN'T real

Blacks eating corpses! Blacks slitting babies throats!

Just two more completely unsubstantiated rumors currently on offer.

:eyes:


From false tales of snipers plinking aid helicopters, to hysteria about the New Orleans police force supposedly resigning en masse, too much crap has been gullibly swallowed by too many for too long.

Some of us are looking for the facts. To the apparent dismay of some the chief rumor-spreaders.

[liberal43110]

39. Where do you hear these things?

I am from New Orleans and haven't gotten more than 4 hours of sleep a night since Tuesday because I have to hear what's going on in New Orleans.

I don't have cable, so, granted, I'm not watching CNN. But I am online constantly and stream either WWL radio or Air America.

And I haven't heard anything like what you're talking about......Lafayette being sacked? Black people slitting babies throats?

Maybe some racist hate groups are saying these things, but otherwise I don't know where you're hearing this......

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Historic NY]

44. PEOPLE...people the same crap happened after 911.......

all kinds of wild stuff flying around the internet. Often repeated hearsay becomes fact and facts get distorted. Believe a fraction of what your hearing and that should be about right.

Yes, bad things did happen but a lots have already been proven wrong. If you go back and ask people again they will tell you the heard it from so and so who heard it from so and so.

[dogday]

45. That's what I saw as well

reporters on the ground verifying that they have not seen any violence on the streets at all.

[Mr_Spock]

50. "have not seen any violence ... at all"

is almost as dumb as Hannity over-playing it - oh, how I hate this silly game.

[NorthernSpy]

52. nope: they said that they hadn't witnessed any violence...

That's not the same as claiming that there was NO violence at all.

No one is claiming that there was no violence or that the crime rate was suddely zero. What we are pointing out is wild exaggeration and unsubstantiated reports that sound more like the effects of mass hysteria than anything else.

[Madrone]

53. Instead of "Reefer Madness" -

We're seeing real life "N_____ Madness" - up close, and personal!

[NorthernSpy]

57. mass hysteria

I think think that there is real, honest-to-gawd mass hysteria at work here.

[Mr_Spock]

59. I gotcha

I thought there was an implication favoring no violence above - I know what you mean but other than Hannity needing his ass kicked, there is no doubt that there was an issue with armed bandits. 'Course if the righties think crime is unusual for a city, I can tell them places in Yankee Boston where they can go and I guarantee they will not leave alive.

[Mr_Spock]

48. Hannity just wants his face kicked in for some reason

I'm not sure why he would continue to make people violently angry at him - oh, well, not my problem though he must be really naive if he thinks he can just sit there in his little high-chair and whine like a baby without getting his punishment.

[Mr_Spock]

46. I can't understand why people here think the crime rate would go to "0"

just because a hurricane hit. Heck, criminals are opportunists and they needed stuff to survive as well. Anybody (on either side) who thought crime would suddenly stop just because all the non-criminals evacuated the city is on crack or smoking large spliffs.

[Sparkly]

54. I don't think anyone said it wasn't real.

Put thousands of people in one place, under squalid conditions, thirsty and in survival mode, in darkness and desperation, with no hope, no authority, no control, and YES, people will do what they can to survive, they will also help each other, and a criminal element will show itself, as well.

But what gets me are these things:
- Equalizing "looting" for food, trying to get buses out of town, etc. with rape and murder.
- People referring "The People of New Orleans" as in, "The People of New Orleans are raping and shooting each other!" Most did no such thing.
- Using such stories, with images of angry black faces, to portray a "security problem" that supposedly kept the Red Cross out and put the military IN, displacing the focus from rescue to control.

It seemed like the authorities were AFRAID of the people they were supposed to be in there saving. I couldn't help think of the mini-cartoon in "Bowling for Columbine," outlining whites' fears of black people (and their subsequent need to take up guns to feel "safe" from them).

Newscasters got up close and personal with these people, and the government was afraid to?!?

[Nikia]

55. I believe it

New Orleans already had a significant crime rate, there was already organized gang activity before the flood, drug addicts may not have their drugs which they are used to, mentally ill people might not have their medication, people who had tendencies towards violent mental illness were pushed over the edge because of this tragedy, and there are some personalities types who are only restrained from crime because they fear the authorities or disapproval from their family and friends. All these factors mean that there will be some violence. It could happen in any city.

[NNN0LHI]

56. So whats your fucking point? You would of acted differently? Shit n/t

[yardwork]

63. I have to echo that sentiment. What's the point?

Nobody is surprised that violence broke out in this dreadful situation. What's the point? That because some people reacted violently, suddenly FEMA is off the hook? It's the fault of the citizens of New Orleans?

OF COURSE violence broke out! What else would anyone expect given the dreadful response to this catastrophe?

[RBHam]

60. Yay! They're shooting desperate men dead! Woo Hoo! Security!

We are marching to pretoria.

[shance]

61. The Troops say otherwise: Troops find no violence, mobs in New Orleans

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[NightOwwl]

64. Quit falling for that bullcrap.

Bush tried to make this disaster all about "Law and Order" because that would put the blame on the citizens of New Orleans rather than himself.

If you don't believe me, watch "This Week." One of Steph's guests (sorry, can't remember who) made the comment. Bush wanted to make looters the scapegoats.

Those people laying dead and rotting in the streets...he wants you to forget about them and focus on those naughty looters instead. Don't fall for it.

.