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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:15 PM
Original message
Cnn anchor indignant about people looting food...
@ a winn dixie.

Damned those poor people stealing FOOD in a flooded area during a hurricane!


:sarcasm:
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DemNoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well!
I'm indignant about CNN anchors.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Stealing is ALWAYS wrong
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Honestly, you can't think of a single situation
where stealing something (let's say food for argument's sake) wouldn't be "wrong"?
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Nope.
Fat Tony: Bart.. uhm. Is it it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family?

Bart: No..

Fat Tony: Well suppose you got a large starving family. Is it wrong to steal a truckload of bread to feed them?

Bart: Nuh-uh

Fat Tony: And what if your family don't like bread. They like.. cigarettes.

Bart: I guess that's okay.

Fat Tony: Now, what if instead of giving them away.. you sold them at a price that was practically giving them away. Would that be a crime, Bart?

Bart: Hell no!
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. M'kay, just checking
I don't know what the rest of that was supposed to be about; it certainly wasn't relevant to my question. Thanks :eyes:
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
56. LMAO!
:rofl:


Stealing is always "wrong" if you subscribe to black and white thinking or pre-operational reasoning.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #56
79. LMAO, indeed.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #79
95. I wasn't referring to this specific case, but your generalization
I don't use the OT as my "rule book" as you do.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. For some the Bible works, for others, moral reasoning works.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. Surely you mean "moral equivocation"
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #103
114. No, that's not what I mean. Lame straw man attack, on your part.
Not all of us blindly accept the "rules" of the Bible and apply them to all contexts.

Do you believe it's always, "wrong" to kill? Even in self defense?

BTW, your words are certainly hostile for a supposed "Christian." WWJD?
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MildyRules Donating Member (739 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Justifable perhaps
but still technically wrong.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Does "technically" matter?
if it's 'morally' justifiable?

Sorry, this could get deep. The idea that it's *always* wrong just struck me as really unchristian/unethical/uncharitable + any number of other things.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Thou shall not steal.
Doesn't say, "unless you are so-and-so poor."
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
34. Oh yeah, the Old Testament is a real compelling standard
to go by. And if there are exceptions to "Thou shalt not kill," then why not stealing? Are you as unalterably opposed to the death penalty as you are to stealing? If you say yes, then I can least admire your consistency of thought.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Yes, I am. And the Bible is a wonderful standard "to go by"
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 02:04 PM by Squatch
at least for me. :toast:

I am opposed to all forms of killing and am against the death penalty.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Okay, cool. n/t
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. Your opposed to all forms of killing?
nothingshocksme (Post 19): Sometimes stealing is survival.

Squatch (Post 22): So? :shrug:

Apparently, the form of killing whereby property owners withhold life-saving property from those in need of it is A-OK with you, by your own admission.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Wow, that's a considerable leap of logic.
Give me a break.

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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. No, not really
You expressed indifference that some people would die if they did not steal, in your own words. Can those who have the material and means to save them and refuse to provide it be considered ethically responsible for a form of killing? You betcha. Of course, nobody likes to say this, cuz then we'd have to say our society is responsible for millions of death by poverty every year. better to pretend that we're god-like and proper in our enjoyment of our luxuries. We "earned" them, after all... :eyes:
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Do you consider fleeing the storm and
therefore not manning the store "refusal" to provide material and means to save lives?
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #55
121. If there are established means for this sort of thing
Then those should be the avenues of aid. When I talk about refusal, I'm talking about obstinate refusal where there is little risk to the refuser. The bottom line is that I value life over property, which I take to be a common value to us both. We have different ways of distributing these values, but I think we're probably both good people with common sense, and would do our best to save life, even if that meant sacrificing some property. We have no need to get drawn into hostilities over obvious points.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. What standards do you hold people too
I mean one answer is that this food is owned by greedy businessmen and therefore they need to lose it (sort of a communist approach). Another is putting yourself in the person's position ("my family is going hungry and I need food so i'll steal it") which cetainly does have an appeal.

on the other hand is it more noble to steal or more noble to find some other way to feed your family?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. I'm speaking theoretically.
I'm not referring to the market looting. Without knowing the facts, I'm fairly certain there's no justification for that.

Of course, it is more noble to feed your own family, but I can think of plenty of situations where that's a false dichotomy. If one's family is starving, taking the time to grow a crop or get a job and wait for a paycheck may not be an option. If one's family is starving, neither of those alternatives may even exist.

Also, I would never factor in the character of the person being stolen from; I wouldn't consider that a justifying factor, no matter who that person was. It's all on the person who steals.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. Let's make it more specific then.....
If someone broke into your house and stole food from your refrigerator....would you feel violated?

Because that is exactly what happened in the referenced story.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. I don't think anyone is defending the specific acts here
What is more questionable is the universal claim that stealing is ALWAYS wrong.

Surely, we can come up with infinite specific examples that would call the universality of that claim into question?

The question throughout this thread is the viability of that claim as a universal claim, not a defense of the fuckwits grabbing Pop-Tarts from the Winn Dixie. ;-)
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. OK...go for it.
Please come up with specific examples where stealing is not wrong.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #49
89. That would be pointless in your case, Squatch
You've already indicated your stance is a hard-line Bibilical one, where there is no excuse for stealing because that's what the Commandment says.

Me, I think if a person steals a loaf of bread to feed his or her starving family, having no other alternative but to let them starve, that's an example where theft is okay. But that's just me.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. There's no excuse for stealing because it only creates more victims
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 02:44 PM by Squatch
It's Biblical principle I agree with.

The principle of giving 18 sheaves of wheat and a sheckle of sheep for a wedding is a little dated, tho. LOL.

On edit: I have no idea what a sheckle is and if sheep come in them.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. A_M.....theoretically, if someone takes something from you by entering....
your property and taking something without your permission, I would expect that you would feel violated. Doesn't that feeling affirm that something wrong occurred?
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #40
73. Honestly? No.
If someone went to the trouble of breaking into my home, which has some fairly valuable stuff in it, and all they did was raid my fridge, I would be forced to assume they really really needed some food and I'd be happy they got some. I can't deny it would be unsettling, having my house entered against my will, but "violated"? No.

The problem with your example is that I don't know all the facts of the situation. The only way to know if this theft was "wrong" is to ask the person who did it, not the person who was on the receiving end. The act belongs to the perpetrator. I could say it was wrong, but I couldn't really ever be sure.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #73
83. I wish I knew where you lived....because I'm hungry.
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 02:37 PM by tx_dem41
And it sounds like the fridge is stocked. ;)
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #83
91. Leggo my Eggo, thief!
:+
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
71. It's been, like, 8 hours since the hurricane hit
I really doubt mass starvation is a concern at this point.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #71
81. Hello? Like I already said
I was speaking theoretically, not with regard to the NOLA looting incident.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. sometimes stealing is survival
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. So?
:shrug:
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txaslftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Yeah...better to let your kid starve than sacrifice a principle.
He'll take your fine example into the afterlife.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Baloney...after ONE DAY???
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 02:00 PM by Squatch
This is a case of some assholes, who are probably well fed and who can afford to buy food, using the cover of the storm to go on a crime wave.

Edited to change "OK" to "Baloney" for clarity.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. No, you said ALWAYS
Now you're bringing it back to this specific case. Perhaps in this specific case it is wrong, because it has only been one day, and nobody could be that desperate yet (it's not physically possible, even!). But you did say always, so you either defend that position or you do not. In some cases (existential quantifier), one might rather say that the regime of property which allows some people to let others starve is the wrong, while "stealing" is an apprpriate response (if we value life). In others, stealing would be "wrong." In others, the regime of property itself depends on a prior theft or expropriation that has been forgotten. These are complex ethical questions, to be sure. But it is a fudge to make a universal claim (stealing is ALWAYS wrong), then defend it by referring to a specific case (it's only been ONE DAY!). You either defend your universal claim or you do not.

One wonders, in any case, where Hugo got the character of Inspector Javert... :eyes:
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Yes, it is ALWAYS wrong.
And I did not, in any place in this thread, even come close to defending the stealing.

txaslftist: "Yeah...better to let your kid starve than sacrifice a principle."

Me: "OK...after ONE DAY???"

I can see where the confusion is. I should have said..."Bullshit...after one day???"

Clear?
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. I think you misunderstand my point
You can't defend a universal proposition (stealing is always wrong) by citing a specific case (after ONE DAY?). I never said that you defended the "theft." However, one can refute a universal proposition by citing a specific case (is it OK to steal if you're starving?), since all you need is ONE case to refute a universal claim. It's a logial point about argument. You have still yet to defend your universal proposition that stealing is ALWAYS wrong, though you seem intent on repeating it, as if that were reason enough to assent to it, or as if it were an obvious point that everybody should assent to immediately...
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. OK...I hear you...thanks for the clarification.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. The "assholes" are the Winn Dixie employees who fled to avoid the storm.
The people were forced to steal.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. I hardly think I'm risking my life for a minimum wage Winn Dixie job
Winn Dixie is not an emergency food repository in any case, and the employees of Winn Dixie have no ethical compulsion to provide food services to those in need. That's utterly ridiculous.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. Agreed 100%
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #47
57. ""Utterly ridiculous". Yes. It's equally ridiculous to ask people to wait
at an empty check out stand in the midst of a natural disaster, as Squach suggested.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Did you forget the sarcasm tag?
So, you expect somebody to man the store to shell out pop-tarts and juju bees during a life threatening storm?

They were forced to steal? LOL.

I'm more inclined to believe that these people use events like this as opportunities to engage in criminal activities because they know:

1) The owners are not present.
2) Law enforcement is unable to respond.

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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #52
61. Brilliant observation. "These people" have a feast every hurricane season.
:eyes:
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Despite your inclusion of "rolling eyes" the fact remains that
in every community, there are people who will use events like this to prey on others. I'll bet dollars to donuts that's what's happening here.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. "Prey on others". Did CNN report that the neighborhood was being looted?
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Don't know...did they?
I do know this:

Link

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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #69
84. Winn Dixie is insured and was certain to be under 10 feet of water. They
were not being "preyed" upon.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #84
98. My house is insured. Does that make it okay to come in and steal
my things?
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #98
104. Your house is not a super market about to be under 10 feet of water.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. Then what does being insured have to do with it?
If a situation is such that theft is a legitimate action, the insurance status of the theft victim is not relevant.

Your post sounds more like rationalizing theft than forming a legitimate justification.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #105
112. The people need the food now. Winn Dixie will be repaid by the insurance.
Goods that were taken would likely be damaged or destroyed by 10 feet of water.

Does that make sense?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #112
117. So the people shouldn't even try to later pay for the food?
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 03:56 PM by mondo joe
That's what insurance is for?

Yikes.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. Maybe morally outraged citizens will form a posse and recover monies owed
to Winn Dixie.

They probably need to take a break from tilting at windmills.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. Or maybe people could just try to pay for what they took.
But since it's easier to nurse some grudge against Winn Dixie rather than support personal responsibility, I don't expect you to support that line of thinking.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. I've no grudge against Winn Dixie. My primary concern is for the people.
If I owned stock in Winn Dixie I would still be more concerned about people during a time of a major disaster.

But that's just me. :shrug:
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
59. Ummm....you forgot the sarcasm tag.
Didn't you? Please, please tell me you forgot your danged sarcasm tag!
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #59
74. I was merely following the logic of the message on post #28.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #74
85. So you didn't....
Through moral gymnastics you have come up with another twisted sense of entitlement. Twisted.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #85
96. Maybe the Minute Men can take time out from guarding our borders, get
down to New Orleans and make citizen's arrest.

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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #45
93. Because they should have risked their lives in case anyone wanted
to go shopping?

Nice.
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Roxy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
58. I agree..One Day?.....It sounds like people who would steal anyway
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
86. Who the fuck is starving now?
Wendys has probably only been closed for 12 hours.

5 Chicken nuggets for 99 cents.

There really should be no starvation in a country filled with dollar value menus.

Granted, you will die of a massive coronary event at age 19, but it's good eatin'.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Sometimes....
...but a single day into major storm activity?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
64. Reminds me of an episode of South Park
People started freaking out and talking about going cannibalistic when they'd been unable to get food for a few hours.
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bullwinkle428 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #64
78. "Life imitates art" : I recall on the afternoon of 9/11, when there
was a line of 30-40 cars waiting to get into a gas station where the price had jumped to over $3/gallon...I was shocked that everyone had apprarently run out of gas at the same time.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
42. That puts you in stage 4
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sundog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #42
75. yeah, the holier than thou stage
:P
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
62. Not when there is a situation like this
They weren't letting people into the superdome without food. What choice is there?
Is there a cashier on duty? Fuck no, and I need food.
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sundog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
66. i guess you're speaking from all your experience with do or die situations
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. Nothing has ever compelled me to create another victim.
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sundog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #70
80. you shall be raptured then
:thumbsup:
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. WTF does that mean?
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sundog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #82
92. it means i'm getting bored with this
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #92
97. Holier than thou, indeed.
:rofl:
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sundog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #97
107. well, at least you're keeping yourself entertained
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #97
111. Ah Quit Yer Belly Aching And Throw A Few Bucks DUs Way
You wanna piss and moan about opportunist why don't you donate to DU?

Just sayin'.
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sundog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. nice one
:P
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #113
116. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. The place was trashed and the ATM machines stolen
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 01:21 PM by dmordue
It certainly wasn't just food that was stolen. It at least included looting and just plain theft. Probably professional theft more than poor people who were dying of hunger.
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Sorry!
I just caught this latest clip and it was short. I didn't know it was more than food.

Thank you for clearing it up.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. They posted a picture on NBC and it was shocking
I would have thought the same thing as you if I hadn't seen the picture.
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. "Probably professional theft more than poor people " YES
I agree
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
110. That is quite a different thing
Needing food, water, or whatever in a crisis... is one thing the ATM machine etc is more like your typical thug type activity.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. Sarcasm?
Stealing/looting is wrong, still...right? Did I miss some new law that got passed?
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. I hadn't heard it was more than food.
Yes stealing is always wrong.

But I thought maybe some street people were trying to feed themselves or something. I'd have a hard time condemning that under these conditions.

I was wrong... it was more.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. Also, why do you stereotype poor people so negatively by assuming...
it was poor people that did it? Perhaps, you need to do some work on your progressive thinking.
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. I'm sorry.
You're right.
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CottonBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. It'a not Daryl Kagan is it? Meanwhile...
Katrina rocks New Orleans, heads into Mississippi
29 Aug 2005 17:48:44 GMT

Source: Reuters

(Recasts, updates location, Category 2, adds Bush declaration)

By Rick Wilking

NEW ORLEANS, Aug 29 (Reuters) - Hurricane Katrina tore into Louisiana on Monday, although the massive storm appeared to spare low-lying New Orleans a feared deathblow and delivered much of its force to neighboring Mississippi and Alabama.

snip

The bowl-shaped city's levee system appeared to be holding off the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain on its edges. Officials said a breach occurred in nearby St. Bernard Parish, where Katrina's eye passed and extensive damage was expected.

About 150 people were reported stranded on rooftops in that southeastern Louisiana parish, where officials 8 to 10 feet (2.5 to 3 meters) of water swamped the region.

"We're getting reports that (more than 20) buildings are collapsing throughout the city," New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said, adding it remained unsafe at midday. "This city is under siege by Katrina."

more...
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N29181983.htm
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
12. Kyra Phillips?
She always needs something to read off of the prompter or else she starts saying crazy things.
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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Phillips is a rockhead.
It's a continual source of wonder just how unwatchable CNN has become.

I switched over to it briefly last night from TWC to see Aaron Brown proclaiming - full of doom 'n drama - to some expert, "So, on a scale of 1 to 10, this time tomorrow will we be saying, 'Oh, God. We've lost a city?!'" To which the "expert" replied: fifty-fifty.

Then this morning while flipping I saw glimpses of the horrible theatrics of Cooper, the freepish Kagan, and now Phillips. There isn't one person in the CNN lineup who doesn't turn my stomach in some fashion.
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. That's the one.
She was just snippy about it.

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KeepItReal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
43. Wrong post...
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 02:11 PM by KeepItReal
<eom>
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
21. 70% of the goddamned city is under water, and CNN cares about looting?
Misplaced air time....
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sundog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
26. do you blame them?
the poor have been stolen from their whole lives...

what does a cnn anchor know about poverty?
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katsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. No.
I imagined some unfortunate who got caught in a disaster and was trying to survive or something. I was only listening, not watching the tube and don't advocate theft or looting.

In my defense of the undefensable and wholly imagined scenario on my part... if I were caught in dire circumstances during a hurricane and had to feed my kids, I'd steal food and gladly pay the price. Even if it were my own fault being unprepared... I'd feed myself and my family.

I think if people have to resort to stealing food even in the best of weather... we better start examining our morals as a nation.



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sundog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
60. i always have to examine things...
through the eyes of the poor...

if those people are still in the city to begin with, chances are they didn't have to finances to drive out...

that was my gut assumption & with that in mind, i hardly give a crap if they are taking crumbs from a company that has more than adequate insurance policies to cover its losses (especially if the food is means of survival)...

the wealthy rob everyday, the poor are stolen from...
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #60
76. You know, when I was pretty young, I was really poor
And it never occurred to anyone to steal.

And I really doubt that looters take the the time to consider corporate accounting before they steal.
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sundog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #76
90. let's just say i have more empathy for looters than a corporation
i also have been poor & did not steal, so that we share
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #90
102. I have less empathy
I have no expectations for corporations.

I expect people to behave themselves.
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sundog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #102
106. so people should behave themselves while corporations misbehave?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
108. I don't know why having things stolen from you makes it ok to steal
from others.

I also don't know that being poor MEANS you've been stolen from your whole life.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
29. Well I did see an atm machine bashed in.
I think those looters planned this. They were not starving.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
31. Winn Dixie should have put some signs up.
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 01:57 PM by D__S

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enid602 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
41. NOLA
I just thank God that the 50K (or however many) NOLA residents in the Superdome have been spared. Concentrating so many poor people in one place in the path of such a hurricane was a bad move, especially when (given availability of municipal, school and Greyhound buses) they could have been successfully evacuated. Had the 'Dome not survived, we would be in a period of national mourning that would make 9/11 seem insignificant. I hope city, state and national planners will come up with a plan so this kind of potential tragedy is never again even considered.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #41
63. The Dome did fine. Some foam blew off of it....
If you look outside the Dome, homes didn't fare as well. Perhaps many lives were saved. In fact, I'm thinking they were.
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enid602 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:32 PM
Original message
Superdome
Sure, because the storm, at the last minute lost intensity, and veered 65 miles east of NO. Had it proceeded with full intensity toward the center of NO, the Superdome would be toast. Better to bus people to several remote locations than make them sitting ducks in the hurricane's path.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
87. Are you an architect or an engineer? Have you been to the Superdome?
Help me out....on what do you base this assertion?


Your method would have left thousands with no shelter at all. Brilliant.
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enid602 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #87
109. neither
Neither. They said on TV that the dome was designed to sustain winds of 200 mph, and they mentioned that the storm (as a category 5) could have produced winds in excess of 200 mph.
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enid602 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #63
72. Superdome
Sure, because the storm, at the last minute lost intensity, and veered 65 miles east of NO. Had it proceeded with full intensity toward the center of NO, the Superdome would be toast. Better to bus people to several remote locations than make them sitting ducks in the hurricane's path.
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Roxy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
54. Stealing is not on my list of Moral Values...give the Red Cross time to
Edited on Mon Aug-29-05 02:20 PM by Roxy66
get set up and food out
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
68. I Used To Have This Conversation With Police Friends
What if a guy is stealing because he has a hungry baby?


Here's my take...


In that situation I'd give the guy a pass but if you have the money to pay for it's stealing....


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Roxy66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #68
77. Agreed ...good example
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #77
88. All These People Saying Winn Dixie Can Afford It Maybe They Can't
I am sure the looting won't "kill" them but they are already in federal bankruptcy protection...
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #88
115. It's always better for food to be eaten than destoyed by a flood. That's
what I'm saying. The people didn't create "Katrina" just to get a free meal.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
101. I don't have a problem with looting of FOOD or essential health supplies
Other items absolutely/that would be wrong IMO.

Let me tell you if I could have *looted* ice during that power outage two years ago I would have been damned tempted.

You couldn't buy, beg, borrow or steal ice and we burned all of our gas driving around trying to find some (something else that wasn't available --nor were ATM machines)

If people are taking other things (other than food) then I would agree it's very wrong but people get panicked in situations of desperation and chaos.

I cannot judge them because I am not living through that particular nightmare!
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-05 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
122. Locked.
This one has run its course and has had its share of civility problems. Seems a good time to lock.
Thanks for your understanding.
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