Did you know Santorum brought a DEAD FETUS home with him??

[growlypants]

His wife had a miscarriage and they wouldnt allow the doctors to take the fetus and they took it home where they made the children hold it (I swear to god this is a true story) and then he and his wife slept with it in bed. He ALSO has a picture of it on his desk in Washington. Am I the only one TOTALLY DISTURBED here??? Dont believe me?? Read here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61804-20...

[yankeefanatic3]

1. That is seriously mentally insane

We have a nut in the United States Senate

[neuvocat]

6. Yeah well when you see Santorum's photo

you'll find out how doubtful you were about that beforehand.

[MsTryska]

63. just one?

honey there are several crazys in Senate.

[YOY]

2. Old news pretty sure

Not in his defense but I like to keep a photo of some memorably good ground chuck on my desk. Damn that was a good meatloaf...

There are whole groups of people who put their miscarriages up on the web and write little poems about their loss and how the child is with Jesus. Scary but true.

[growlypants]

7. AAAAHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[phylny]

55. I've had two miscarriages, losing three "fetuses" and I'll tell you

something, I mourned the loss. To me, those were my babies because I wanted a baby.

Don't ridicule people if you haven't been through it. BTW, I'm pro-choice and I think Santorum is a nutcase, but I don't see why anyone would make fun of grief.

[fujiyama]

60. I'm sorry for your loss

While I agree with the other poster that actually taking the child home and spending the night with it is odd, I see nothing wrong with taking a photo of it.

Either way, I find joking about it in bad taste.

[YOY]

70. I'd never make fun of the grief

I would make fun of those who use and parade their grief for political means...especially those who would use the "pro-life" jargon to their own ends.

I am sorry for your loss and I know it is not something that you just "get over." Life must go on though and the mourning process should not be extremely prolonged to the point that some take it. If my wife ever had a miscarriage I don't think it would be a source of humor by any stretch. However, I do not think there will be any pictures of dead fetuses on my desk.

I understand that the grieving process comes in various steps and many people handle their grief but keeping a photo of a dead fetus or even a dead body on your desk is downright creepy.

I do keep a picture of my grandmother on a davenport at home. It is a picture of her alive and not one of her funeral.

Once again I am sorry for your loss.

[tx_dem41]

72. What about laughing at grief for political means?

Just as disgusting.

[LynneSin]

99. I don't think it's anything about the miscarriage

nor disrespect for those who have lost a child that they have wanted.

First, I don't think the Joe Average in the US would be allowed to take their miscarried baby home with them. Second - what kind of nut job would have their children cuddling that child.

Mourning is the important part of the process but I think Santorum went a little too far with how he handled it!

[tx_dem41]

102. There are many "nut jobs" that do this. Many are Democrats...

imagine that. People grieve in many ways. It doesn't make that "sick" or "kinky".

[tx_dem41]

68. So you're comparing a baby to ground chuck?

Is politics and power so important to you that would say something as inhumane as that? Do you realize that many of your fellow DUers have gone through miscarriages and still births and gone through a similar grieving process.

[MuseRider]

3. Although it seems very creepy

it is not all that unusual. I don't know anyone who actually took their dead baby (fetus) home but we provided rooms for the families to do just this.

I heard about this a while ago. Did they MAKE the other children hold it? That seems creepy to make them but lots of kids are just curious enough and also grief stricken that it helps them to do that.

[TomInTib]

4. This story has always disturbed me

I mean, if the family dog was run over and killed and you had the kids sleep with it a couple of nights you would do a LOT of time.

[graywarrior]

5. He needs to be put on suicide watch

He's a danger to himself...and others.

[eauclaireliberal]

8. It's another reason

That his last name should be continued to be cross-referenced as "The frothy mix of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex."

[longship]

9. Mike Malloy does this little play

"Play with it!!!"

"Daddy! I don't want to play with it."

"Play with it!!!"

"But Daddy. It's icky!"

"Play with it!!!"

[tx_dem41]

66. Then all I can say is that Mike Malloy is a sick, heartless bastard. n/t

[jmatthan]

105. Sorry to disagree with you

Mike has always put this always in the correct perspective of what Santanorum stands for.

[tx_dem41]

119. Does Mike know that it hurts all people that have done the

exact same grieving process. Does Mike care? Or, does Mike only care about his career and/or his politics?

[Richard Steele]

10. Just when you think he couldn't get any creepier...

Reccomending! Everyone should read this shit.
He's A LOT more disturbed than I ever guessed.

[seriousstan]

11. So now it is OK to question how a parent handles the death of their child?

Let me start, I do not agree with this level of acknowledgment for a 20 week old miscarriage. I would handle it differently.

That being said, it is their loss and their decision on how to deal with it. I presume they had already named the child. That just makes it even harder on the parent.

I have a relative that, after 60 years still celebrates their stillborn son's birthday.

Whatever gets you through the night.

[cbear70]

25. I love Du but am offended

I lost my daughter , who was stillborn at 37 weeks. I held her, my husband held her and my children held her. This is the way it is done now. We mourn our child and we have her picture on the wall as well. There are thousands of women who have had to endure stillbirth and miscarriage and I do believe you are crossing the line with the statements you are making. I am not mental nor am I insane. I am a mother who grieves every day for a child that I carried full term, a child that I nurtured and loved and died suddenly right before she was born. She was beautiful and precious and my family will forever celebrate her.

I am deeply offended and wish you would just show respect in certain situations.

[seriousstan]

31. I think you have responded to the wrong post. I agree with you.

I would never deny you the method of your grief.

I only said that Mine would be different. I said, whatever gets you through the night.

My prayers are with you.

[cbear70]

36. sorry

I am crying and this deeply cuts. I did respond to the wrong one. I love DU but I think I need to leave. I feel very isolated right now. The loss of my daughter was one of the worst things that ever happened to me. I am grateful I got to hold her and so were my children. I am just so upset right now.

again sorry for the wrong post.

[seriousstan]

43. You must understand, some here look at everything through politically

colored glasses. I am sure they put no more thought into it that the average slug. Don't take it personal. There are plenty of good people here. I just think some are afraid of speaking out because of the backlash.

Take a deep breath and know their are sympathetic souls out there that feel your pain. You are stronger than most.

[knitter4democracy]

45. It really sucks to lose a baby, doesn't it?

I lost one quite early on--never had the chance to hold him or her, and I grieve every fall. Last year was really hard for some reason, so I made a fetal demise packet to donate and ended up keeping it as something, anything to remember. I even carry some of the yarn with me in my purse.

I cannot imagine the hell you went through, though. Mine was so early, and I still hurt. How much it must hurt, especially around the due date and the anniversary of your loss. I'm so very, very sorry. {{{{Hugs}}}}

Please don't think that these jerks speak for all of us. I don't blame the senator or his wife for what they did. They did what they needed to do.

[cbear70]

56. Thank you

I woke up this morning after not sleeping very well because of this thread. Thank you all for the support you showed to me. I glanced down and see they never stopped, even saying things like child services should be called. I know this shows ignorance on their part because the hospitals recommend this now as part of the healing process. They actually send in a perinatal loss nurse who takes you through step by step, tells you what the options are and takes pictures knowing that this is the only memory you will ever have. Holding her was a beautiful experience , not a crazy one and I treasure the hour I got to hold her, as do my children. The social worker actually told us that if we did not allow the kids to hold her, they might be affected by it later. The social worker, the kids counselor, pediatrician, the hospital all recommended. The mothers I counsel all have let their children be a part of the process. This is a very difficult subject, and I know it. I am part of a larger organization and the conflict is constantly political, I get that I stepped into a debate. But losing a child to miscarriage or stillbirth or even neonatal death is very difficult, it is not about abortion to us. Its the loss of a child, plain and simple. The two are not even close. Parents should be respected and threads like this are so very distasteful. No matter the feelings over Santorum, this was a private choice for him and his family and should not be a part of the forum here.
To those who shared your loss with me, I am truly sorry. My heart to each of you . I cannot thank you enough for showing me that kindness does exist here at DU.

[knitter4democracy]

59. Exactly.

This isn't even closely related to abortion in most people's minds. There's a huge difference between choosing an abortion and having a wanted and loved child die inside of you.

Oh, heck, now I'm crying. That miscarriage was one of the hardest things I've ever gone through, and I know so many women who have suffered horribly from miscarriages and even stillbirths very close to term. It's a terrible experience, and everyone goes through it and grieves differently.

God bless you for working to help others and speaking out against the bullying behavior on this thread. Something tells me that none of those posters have ever been through the experience.

[wtmusic]

67. ...

Thanks for hanging around and sharing your experience. I know it must be hard to write about it, but quite honestly you have enlightened me on this subject. I hope you will also try to understand how it might seem strange to those who have not been through the experience. Santorum is off his rocker for other reasons, and to the ignorant (like me) it is somewhat natural to see links where there are none.

[fujiyama]

62. I'm sorry for your loss as well

I'm digusted that anyone would joke about this.

[tx_dem41]

65. Cbear....I understand why you would want to leave.

I'm sharing that same feeling right now. I only want you to know that not all DUers (by a long shot) feel like most of the "people" (and I use the term loosely) on this thread.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

42. Amen.

Serioustan, cbear, amen to you both.

My wife and I are the veterans of 2 miscarriages, both in the first trimester. It has been 3 years since the last, and we still remember and we still grieve, if only a little.

I read the article, then I read it again to be sure. I didn't see the part where they took the baby to bed with them. Where does that info come from?

As for the rest, I will not judge how any parent grieves the loss of a child.

Peace.

[Canuckistanian]

26. No!

You do not 'deal' with the death of a fetus by passing the corpse around and sleeping with it.

I can't imagine any culture on this earth where this is considered "normal".

Sorry.

[cbear70]

27. yes you do

Ask hospitals, ask counselors, check our grief organizations.

And yes cultures around the world do treat death of a baby this way, New Zealand, Australia, England, many other cultures.

[Canuckistanian]

39. I'm conflicted...

A dead body, no matter how you project meaning into it, is still dead, a lifeless object.

Still, I do respect cultural traditions, but this is not one of mine.

But bringing children into it.... I don't know.

My wife and I almost lost our baby two times during her pregnancy. I still remember the horror when she passed large blood clots.

But dwelling on a loss when it's all over... I don't know.

[seriousstan]

49. With doubt in your mind you chose to argue with a grieving mother.

Poor choice.

[mopinko]

139. i had a miscarriage, too.

nearly died myself. i understand, and i am sorry for your loss, i know it is very real.
but i think what is really bothering a lot of du is that this looks like nothing but political grandstanding. that is not any old desk where that picture sits, but the desk of a us senator. and knowing this guy, if that was a desk at strickland propane, it would be in the bottom drawer. of his desk at home.
dealing with grief is one thing. making a huge show of your grief, so that you can use it to political advantage is another.
and holding a dead fetus is one thing, treating like the latest beannie baby is another.

[seabeyond]

12. raising hand, totally disturbed. and really a grieving parent, i

don't judge. i give such leeway to grief. but this, just beyond. just beyond. the same kinda extreme, bush losing his sister and parents go out and play golf the next day. no mourning

[Mr_Spock]

13. Santorum is a dead FETUS???

I knew there was something strange about him! Doesn't surprise me though

[BlueEyedSon]

14. No, but if you hum a few bars....

[globalvillage]

29. Get Sirius.

[eauclaireliberal]

47. I got this from Keillor's "Pretty Good Joke Book"

A guy walks into a bar, orders a beer and sits down to watch a piano player, the pianist's monkey dancing to the music. The monkey runs down to the guy's end of the bar, urinates in his glass and runs back to the piano. The guy gets up, brings his glass over to the piano player and says "hey buddy, do you know your monkey pissed in my beer?" The piano player responded "No, but if you hum a few bars, I'll play it for you."

[Beaver Tail]

15. That is Seriously disturbing.

I don’t care if you believe is a fetus is a person or not, it is just plain sick and twisted.

[Cleita]

16. That's kinky.

These people get wierder the more we find out about them.

[never_get_over_it]

17. This actually is old news

Mike Malloy has discussed it several times. But any of you who know voters in PA make sure you bookmark this article and make them aware of it - because I think it is seriously crazy and the voters should know their Senator is a frigging nut case.

I would take one exception to your post - according to the article the baby was born and lived for two hours so I don't think that can be considered a miscarriage and the baby was no longer a fetus if it was born. Maybe medically I'm wrong but I would consider that she gave birth to a baby that died.

[growlypants]

18. Ok, sorry! "Took a dead body home"

Doesnt make it any better. I'm reportting this story again to remind the PA voters what we're up against. This guy has gotta go in 2006 and the campaign against him has already started here in PA

[never_get_over_it]

37. Oh God no

it doesn't make it any betrer it is one of the freakest things I have ever heard of - that was not the point of my comment - actually I don't know what the point of my comment is - I just felt uncomfortable with the term miscarriage and fetus. And good for you let everyone in PA know - this guy is completely nuts

[Rex]

19. Almost as crazy as Boosh.

Twice as perverse.

[DanCa]

20. Can you imagine taking a biology class with him and Frist

word to the wise dont wear white.

[Brightmore]

21. That's quite disturbing

[smartvoter]

22. Okay... This is disturbing. nt

[Canuckistanian]

23. And they passed it around and kissed it.

Sick, depraved and twisted. I would think more of him if he's actually screwed a dog...

[growlypants]

24. And I told my friend she was nutso cuz she wanted to stuff her dead dog

[TwilightZone]

28. Private grief is one thing. Involving your young kids is another.

I'm a bit disturbed that they made their other three kids, all quite young, "kiss" and "cuddle" a dead baby for "several hours."

That just seems rather inappropriate.

[BlueEyedSon]

30. Is this a "dead baby" joke?

[growlypants]

33. unfortunately, no joke. This is OUR senator. HELP!!

[globalvillage]

35. Not for long.

http://www.bobcaseyforpa.com/

[growlypants]

38. I certainly hope not. But these religious zealots ALL vote for him

[BlueEyedSon]

44. Yeah I know, I'm right next door. HE is a joke though:

http://www.spreadingsantorum.com

[whistle]

32. That is pretty sick behavior on the part of Rick and his wife....

[growlypants]

34. And this is the guy who screams about gays being sick and immoral.

This Santorum character is totally outta control.

[Divernan]

40. Rick & wife chose their actions;but forced holding dead baby on their kids

I think their children were pre-school ages at the time; certainly not much older. There are strong personal differences among ADULTS in one's ability to handle viewing a dead body. To force this on a small child is, I think, extremely dangerous to their psychology. At age 15, after a three month separation while my Dad received medical treatment in another state, I saw him in his open casket. That was, and remains, some 40 years later, a terrible last memory to have of him, and I have since refused to look at, let alone touch or kiss a dead body of any family member or acquaintance who has died. What I love about people is their spirit/soul/the light in their eyes/their humanity. . A dead body is like a piece of meat and horrifying to me. Some well-meaning relatives have tried to "shame" me in to getting up close and personal with the dead. I refuse to do it. My younger brother had the same reaction.

I've told my kids, when I go, close the casket, put out some pictures of me with the people I loved, doing the things I enjoyed, tell stories of the good times and treat everyone to the drink of their choice.

[patrice]

41. God, what a Pharisee!

A real spiritual life would have kept information about Gabriel absolutely private, and thus, sacred within the confines of the family. The fact that Santorum didn't do that is evidence of his lack of respect for what Family really is outside his political exploitation.

[BamaLefty]

46. Oh Gross...

This isn't political or against Santorum, just flat out gross. I have no problem with being with your child at the hospital, but taking a dead baby home with you is not only sickening but disrespectful to the passed child.

Yes, that is disturbing.

[Divernan]

48. What's he gonna do with his wife if she dies first?

Bring her home and sleep with her? There's a name for that -
necrophilia.

I know that's not a kind thing to say - but that man has done so much harm to good people with his heartless policies. If he showed some concern for the hundreds of thousands of children in the US, or the millions of children in the world who suffer from lack of medical care, I might credit him with some human decency. But he doesn't and I don't . As one poster pointed out, he publicizes this for political gain. I hadn't heard of the photo of a dead baby on his desk. Shall we send him photos of the dead and horribly mutilated Iraqi children who got in the way of US ordinanace? He could have a damn desk full of pictures! Oh, and add photos of those Iraqi babies born horribly deformed by uranium from US weapons in Iraq One.

[growlypants]

50. HEY!!! Those Iraqi's aint Christians...according to Ricky, they dont count

[goodboy]

51. truly disturbing...the fetus was smaller than a dollar bill...*nt*

[truebrit71]

52. Wow...you have got to be seriously out of your tiny mind...

...to pull a sick stunt like that....

What a fucking nutjob.....

[Horse with no Name]

53. If it isn't something you wouldn't do...don't do it!

Easy enough.
I think Santorum is an asshole, but however anyone decides how to grieve is between them, their family and God.
It's really none of your business.

[Modem Butterfly]

54. Actually, allowing children to handle a dead body...

...is the business of the health department. Maybe even DFACS too.

[cbear70]

57. please call them

Then they can educate you on how normal this is. The social workers at hospitals are there during the process and this is normal. I believe there needs to be some education here at DU on the grieving process that occurs when a family loses a child before they are born.

[Modem Butterfly]

69. They let people remove human remains and play with them?

Yikes.

I understand there's a grieving process people go through, I understand that it's different for every individual. But I don't get taking a body home and taking a nap with it. I say again, yikes.

[knitter4democracy]

It's also recommended by the nurses and hospitals now.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but that is a current recommendation. See the actual experiences of a DUer upthread.

Death used to be more of an everyday occurance in our society with in-home funerals and family burial plots on the family land. We didn't used to ship everyone off to hospices, hospitals, and other places away from the family. My great-grandmother gave birth to all four of her sons on her kitchen table, for crying out loud.

Having had a miscarriage, I can say that the hardest part is having nothing to remember that little life by. Mine was quite early, but if I'd lost one of my children before term, I would've held him or her and had everyone acknowledge that that little one had, even for a brief time, been a part of our lives. I never got to hug mine, so I had to knit a reminder piece to have something, anything to hold when the grief gets too hard.

[Modem Butterfly]

74. You know, I understand where you're coming from

I had an ectopic pregnancy myself a few years ago. It hardly seems real to be pregnant one day and the next to not be (in my case, it was medically more complicated than that, but you get my drift). For someone with a more advanced pregnancy, the chance to actually say a physical good-bye must be very important. However, I feel that Santorum's case goes beyond this. What bothers me deeply is that he was allowed to remove the body from the hospital and take it home for awhile. I have to wonder if that is, indeed, part of the normal grief counseling procedure or a special favor extended to a Senator. And I question exposing small children to a corpse for an extended period of time.

[knitter4democracy]

131. I just don't like to judge grieving parents.

I'm sorry for your ectopic--those can be scary. I hope it was found early enough and that the surgeon was especially gifted.

In earlier days, she would've had the baby at home anyway, so I guess I don't see the problem there. It helped with the grieving process, and that's different for everyone.

I do think it's odd that we're all attacking a father's grief, and yet we get all upset whenever the RWers do the same thing to the Edwardses or Cindy Sheehan. I don't care how evil he is, we shouldn't be so hypocritical. We say that every mom grieves differently in support of Cindy and then turn and attack Sen. Santorum and his wife for what they did to deal with losing a baby.

[tx_dem41]

133. Hypocrisy is an equal-opportunity character flaw.

It afflicts all ideologies.

[Modem Butterfly]

140. I think the concern comes from the transportation of the body

Everyone had had to say good-bye to the mortal remains of a loved one, or has at least known someone who has. Death seems inconceivable for many people until that moment when the physical reality becomes overwhelming. This is why so many people choose an open-casket funeral, if possible. However, the transportation of a body to a private home for a family nap is alienating. I daresay that someone like Cindy Sheehan (i.e., a "little" person) would not have that opportunity.

[knitter4democracy]

143. Actually, the home funeral movement is growing.

More and more people are fighting the laws that mostly benefit the funeral industry and having funerals in their homes and burials with natural caskets (not the metal lined, waterproof things most of us use for our loved ones).

The baby wasn't a biohazard unless it died from rubella or something like that. If that had been the case, I doubt they would've been allowed to take it home. Other than that, babies die in utero for many reasons, most of which aren't known. It only would become a biohazard if contaminated somehow, which I doubt it was.

[Modem Butterfly]

146. Unfortunately, dead bodies begin to decay quickly

The body processes begin very quickly. As you note, people have to fight laws against home burial, which would also apply in this case.

[knitter4democracy]

147. True, but it's nothing to worry too much about.

Honestly, the processes don't seriously kick in for awhile (enough for others to worry about). I mean, coroners often don't get there for hours, and bodies can't be moved until they give the okay. A little baby won't have the same body fluid issues and all, either.

Maybe it's because my hubby's an internist, but I just don't see the problem here.

[tx_dem41]

145. "Daresay"....which means you really don't know....

right?

There have been two incidences of people on this thread saying they had that opportunity. I doubt either one of those was a U.S. Senator. IJS

[SheepyMcSheepster]

104. agreed. eom

[Junkdrawer]

58. Sounds like Presidential timber to me...

Now, excuse me while I try to find that rabbit with the watch...

[Tesla]

61. My cousin lost 2 babies, they had a brainstem, but hardly any brain.

One lived 3 days, another just hours.
She loved on and shared the child with her family after their death.
They never left the hospital, or took it to children.
It still haunts the adults that were there.
She has shared those babies with her children in making their graves a place to share certain holiday times, birthday, day they died, etc.

I can see all this happening in the hospital, but not taking it home!

[tx_dem41]

64. The sick behavior is actually coming from the majority of posts on this..

thread. To laugh at and/or condemn a process that is widely used now by grief counselors and is comforting to people at the most grief-stricken, vulnerable times in their lives is sick. To do it for political gains only makes it sicker.

To read one of the posts on this thread from a woman who was crying because she felt so isolated by her "community" because of this thread should give us all pause to what kind of people we are.

For all the people that feel we have to "fight dirty, like Republicans" to win back office...well, this is the product of those dreams...a thread that hurts all involved. Many, many good Democrats have gone through this grieving process. You have called them "sick" and "kinky". They should spit in your faces right now, quite frankly.

[Mr_Spock]

73. Tough talk - too bad we're talking about "man on dog" Santorum here

This guy doesn't exactly bring out sympathetic feelings in people here. I think you know the kind of repressed world we would live in if we were ruled by sociopaths like Santorum. I understand your point completely, but you are ignoring the context of this post - I cannot, I will not. Santorum does not deserve our sympathy - this is politics - that's what we do here...

[tx_dem41]

77. No...we're talking about many DUers that have gone through the same...

process. I would think they deserve our sympathy. Obviously, they are getting very little of that from their so-called "community".

[Ripley]

88. THEIR so-called "community."

Not YOURS huh? What's your mission?

[Mr_Spock]

120. I didn't realize that this was a sympathy thread for lost babies

I will repeat - I WILL NOT ignore the context of the thread. This is a POLITICAL forum - if you don't like the topic, DON'T PARICIPATE IN IT - it's called FREE WILL. We enjoy our freedoms in this country - at least for the time being.

We would never be able to thoroughly thrash out any issues if we were constantly worried about being "politically correct" as it were. Politics implies disagreement over beliefs - otherwise there would be nothing to discuss here.

[tx_dem41]

127. I guess you're right. This is a POLITICAL forum.

Which means its about raw, naked greed for political power. Its not about human issues. Its not about compassion. Its not about caring.

Its about power and vengance over political enemies.

[Mr_Spock]

154. Color your argument any way you want.

That's what we do here. I choose to disagree with your point AND your tactics. That's what makes this place fun.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

132. unless santorum tries to create laws that mandate everyone do this

i could care less what he does and i find to it to not be an issue that is remotely political.

[Ripley]

75. I'm sick and tired of seeing you bash DUers in every post you make..

Now you're encouraging people to spit in Democrats' faces!

I don't care what the norm is in Iowa. Take a poll and 90% of people would not find it very healthy to take a dead fetus home and allow their young children to sleep with it and hold it. The parents, of course can make a decision as to what is appropriate for THEM.

His children were under the age of 10 I believe at the time. Hell, most kids at that age can't even deal with the death of Fido, much less a fetus.

But once again you use this particular topic to attack Democrats and especially show your disdain for DUers.

So why the hell do you hang out with people you loathe?

[CornField]

78. It isn't just the norm in Iowa

It is the 'norm' across the United States.

BTW, were you referring to me in your post to a Texan?

[Modem Butterfly]

80. They let you take the body home for an afternoon nap?

[CornField]

107. If I had wanted to do so, yes

As it was, I was in no shape to leave the hospital and my son and I spent time together there. My husband left for a short time to go and fetch our family. (I was really in bad shape and not expected to live.) When he returned, we all (husband, myself & daughter) spent some time with our son/brother and said goodbye.

[tx_dem41]

129. What a touching story, Cornfield.

Thank you for sharing it. I have a similar story. My wife and I have also worked in hospices and hospitals and witnessed many such stories.

[Ripley]

85. Because you seemed the most seriously upset.

By others saying this sounds ghoulish.

Do you have a link for the "norm across the US?"

[CornField]

108. Hey, Ripley -- how old are you?

[Ripley]

110. Probably older than you.

See my post below. I'm sorry for your loss. This is not about you...I responded to someone who ALWAYS uses threads like this to smear DUers.

Peace.

[CornField]

152. So now it is okay to use someone's grief in order

to draw out a fellow DUer you feel is in need of a tombstone?

Frankly, when it comes to "threads like this" DUers, for the most part, are in need of a good spanking. There are certain lines to civilized behavior that should not be crossed, even in the realm of politics. For the record, slamming someone based on the way they choose to grieve or not to grieve their child is probably the biggest of all those lines.

As for links:

http://www.uk-sands.org / -- from the UK

http://www.marchofdimes.com/professionals/681_1198.asp - March of Dimes

http://www.stillnomore.org/main.htm - National Stillbirth Society

http://www.wisc.edu/wissp / - Wisconsin Stillbirth Service Program

http://www.compassionatefriends.org/Brochures/stillbirt... - Compassionate Friends

Or maybe you'd rather be referred to books:

Empty Cradle, Broken Heart: Surviving the Death of Your Baby

How to Go On Living After the Death of a Baby

The Bereaved Parent

There are hundreds more links, magazine articles and books I could link to here, but I won't bother.

[tx_dem41]

153. Thanks for the links and thoughts, Cornfield. n/t

[tx_dem41]

81. I'm not talking about Democrats......

I'm talking to the people on this thread that showed such cruelty and heartlessness to people in grief. They're certainly NOT Democrats. They're just DINOs.

[Modem Butterfly]

94. Just because you disagree with someone on an issue...

...doesn't mean you get to define that person.

It's a big tent. There's room for lots of folks, even those with the nerve to disagree with you.

[tx_dem41]

96. That's a great lesson.

Thanks. Now learn it.

[Modem Butterfly]

97. Translation: I'm rubber and you're glue...

:yawn:

[Spazito]

124. Well said!

I have wondered the same thing!

[Modem Butterfly]

76. I question whether most mourners are allowed to borrow the body

I highly doubt that this is routine in any hospital. I think Santorum probably got special privelages because of his status, and if so that is a political issue.

[tx_dem41]

82. You "highly doubt" it....which means you really don't know...

right?

[Modem Butterfly]

86. What's your point?

[Ripley]

83. I agree completely.

And for the poster whoever it was who said people used to lay out the body at home and bury them in the backyard.

Um, we don't do this anymore for reasons I shouldn't have to spell out.

The Santorum's could have encouraged their children to say goodbye to Gabriel in many ways: drawing pictures, writing letters, etc. other than holding a deceased corpse. I'm pretty sure the Health Department and grief counselors DO NOT tell small children to do this. And this cannot be compared to touching someone in an open casket at a funeral which I have done more times than I care for.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Modem Butterfly]

89. Name the hospital, city and state please

Thanks!

[Misunderestimator]

91. "You idiots" ... ??? Um.... Well, then... welcome to DU.

[Ripley]

92. bye!

Idiots huh? Where's YOUR PROOF this is common?

[Misunderestimator]

84. Oh HORRORS... DUers are so utterly horrible... just look at all the....

horrific posts on this thread. You always do this... you post on threads where you find a few posters who are insensitive, then you make some blanket accusation against all of DU. You turn it into insulting Santorum for "political gain" instead of for what it is, which is people reacting to hearing about someone taking a dead baby home and sleeping with it. Not just any person, but Santorum, making the story all the more preposterous since we already know who he is and what goes on in his sick, sick mind.

Stop accusing ALL DUers of doing or saying what you find offensive from a few. Discuss your issues with THOSE DUers and stop accusing the rest of us.

[tx_dem41]

90. Can you please point out where I was addressing "ALL DUers"?

I was addressing the DINOs on this thread that made such posts.

[Misunderestimator]

93. It's the way you insinuate it with comments like this:

"The sick behavior is actually coming from the majority of posts on this thread."

Majority? Sick Behavior?

As for accusing all of DU... that's what I've seen you do many times before. This is the same sort of post you often make on divisive threads.

(And if you were addressing "the DINOS on this thread" then address them. Address them one by one... otherwise it looks like you are accusing everyone on the thread. But... I assume that's the point. Don't really accuse, but put the accusation out there vaguely.)

[Modem Butterfly]

100. There's too many DINOs

DINOs = anyone disagreeing with tx_dem41

[SheepyMcSheepster]

95. agreed, i do find the sick behavior to be the ridicule of a loss

sure man-on-dog santorum is a loony, but i believe this situation deserves a little more leniency when it comes to cracking jokes. there is enough screwed up about santorum to poke fun at without resorting to "bashing" his family's loss and grieving process.

of course i recognize that all this exists on a message board so people are free to say whatever they want without really revealing their motivations. it would seem some post just to make "us" look bad which inturn requires that someone else posts to acknowledge how bad it makes "us" look.

i'm just saying i find it in poor taste to point and laugh at the situation.

[knitter4democracy]

135. Yes, and it's also hypocritical.

We get all upset whenever the RW attacks Cindy in her grief or Elisabeth Edwards in hers, but we'll turn around and attack Santorum (granted, evil guy) in his? That doesn't make sense, as we're always harping on RW hypocrisy.

[bleedingheart]

71. because there is MOURNING and then there is mourning

and he was going for the grander more public display of grief...

just like my great aunt...the one who wailed like a banshee as they put her husband's casket in the grave....and then she tried to jump in after him...but her daughters choreographed it just right...so that they had her arms just in time...

same thing with him...I am sure he and his wife were upset but he wanted to make sure that he could garner some points with the anti-choice crowd...

[Modem Butterfly]

79. Ever see Twin Peaks?

[Chocolatebison]

98. That is just plain sick

Sick.

[Hubert Flottz]

101. Rick's kids will probably want to have Rick mounted when he...

passes on. That way Rick's great great grandkids can get Rick's freeper body out and play dress up and things like that.

Edit...Can you say Norman Bates? * Sure I knew you could.

[CornField]

103. If this is the only thing we can find to blast him on

If we, as a community, can only find something extremely personal from his life to use as a tool against him, then we are the sad lot. I hope everyone on this thread who has taken advantage of a family during one of the most vulnerable times is pleased and proud.

And, no, I don't care if Santorum and his family did what they did as political grandstanding or out of overwhelming grief. It is none of our business how a parent chooses to mourn a child (20 weeks along or 20 years along). What has been done in this thread and another flies directly in the face of everything the pro-choice community has strived to achieve.

Let me spell it out for you:

1) Women can get pregnant for a variety of reasons and then *choose* to have an abortion. We should support those women with their choice.

2) Women can get pregnant for a variety of reasons and then *choose* to attempt to carry to term. We should support those women with their choice.

For women (and indeed families) who *choose* number two, the medically-termed fetus immediately becomes a child in their mind's eye. They begin to dream about that child. What color hair will he/she have? What color eyes? Will he/she be tall? Long before birth, the fetus/child becomes a part of the family. Purchases are made on the fetus/child's behalf. Changes are made in the family structure. That "fetus" has already become an integral part of the family.

When loss comes, it is life-shattering and life-altering. Often the family goes through days or weeks of feeling out of sync with the rest of society. Funerals are often held... younger siblings are given an opportunity to say goodbye... grandparents are also called to help out and say their own goodbyes.

Now I have tried, in good faith, to both hold my tongue and explain how horrifying the death of a fetus/child can be. Some of you will get it, others will laugh. I'd like to end this brief speech with a thought: As a liberal democrat (most would say radically liberal), DU is the place I should feel most welcome. Most of the time, I do find like voices and caring here. There are times, however, like this one, when I want to shut the browser window and not return. I have watched DUers praise pet owners while belittling parents. I have - more than once - bore the brunt of an assault against women who choose to start a family and then undergo a loss. If these people at DU are the heart of the democratic party, there is little wonder why so many have turned their backs. This type of thread is not only callous and uncaring to Santorum, but to *every* parent who has had a stillborn son or daughter -- many of them your fellow democrats right here on DU.

[Sgent]

106. We need a DU 527

We need to run adds on TV in PA about this.

Maybe call it...

Brothers for Truth

[SheepyMcSheepster]

112. no we don't

santorum has enough political baggage already without Democrats trying to condemn someone for the manner in which they delt with their dead fetus/baby.

[Junkdrawer]

117. I think this is best handled by a whispering campaign. BTW: thanks..

for keeping this thread kicked!

[Ripley]

109. Advice from Hospital in Iowa re: death of fetus.

Parents are encouraged to acknowledge the death and equally important acknowledge the life of their baby, Grinstead says. The social worker suggests that parents be given the choice to view their dead child to help them acknowledge the existence of the child. Parents may wish to secure a birth certificate or take a photograph of the child to recognize that the child was indeed a part of their lives, Grinstead adds.

I chose this virtual hospital from the University of Iowa since someone here says it is normal in Iowa as well as the entire US to take the dead child home and let the younger children at home sleep with him/her.

I think the quote above sounds completely reasonable. And my intent is not to diminish anyone's grief for losing their baby. I am sorry to those who have. However, I believe the Santorum's behavior was unusual and I find it hard to believe it is actually encouraged around America.

http://www.vh.org/adult/patient/obgyn/prose/fetaldeath....

[Modem Butterfly]

113. I'll bet if you called any hospital at random...

...asked for the administrator's office, and asked if miscarrages were allowed to be borrowed by the parents, you would get hung up on.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

115. why speculate?

give it a try.

[Modem Butterfly]

118. Yikes

I won't do that again.

"What kind of sick twisted person asks a question like that?"

- Northside Hospital in Atlanta, GA, just before the phone slammed down.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

114. who cares?

it's dead, it's theirs, why is it any of our/my business what they do with it?
if they think it helps their greiving process to carry it home and read it bed time stories i could care less.

[Modem Butterfly]

121. Well, it is a health risk

Not to be insensitive, but a dead body of any sort is a biohazard.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

123. what if it was preserved?

that wouldn't be a problem then would it?

secondly, seeing the dead animals that litter the roadways for days/weeks at at time, someone's dead baby in their house for a day or two doesn't really bother me.

[Modem Butterfly]

126. Preservation only delays decay

Unless you completely submerge the body in formaldehyde, and keep it there, preservation only delays the inevitable.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

128. that's what i mean smarty pants

in a big 'ole jar of formaldehyde, like in science class.

[Nevernose]

111. I wasn't allowed to take my wisdom teeth home to show my kid

I thought that, since she was starting to get loose teeth, it might be beneficial to her to show her an actual tooth. I asked the nurse about it, and she was okay with it, but the dentist said, "I'm sorry, but no. It would be a violation of state and federal law." Though I no longer have access to Westlaw to look up the relevant statutes and regulations, I suspect that even in Pennsylvania taking a dead fetus from the hospital is a no-no. Maybe there's just something weird about Pennsylvania; most locales don't give you the option of taking the body to a morgue/funeral home or taking it home with you.

I for sorry for the Santorums, even if Rick is a giant asshole, and perhaps seeing and holding the fetus and even letting the kids see and hold it could be helpful in the grieving process (for instance, many people still take care of the make-up on their deceased loved ones, dress the body, and so on).

But taking a corpse home to let the children see it? That's the point where a natural grieving process crosses the line.

[Sgent]

116. Transport

of biohazard materials. There are multiple requirements.

[jbnow]

134. Home or hospital

Why do we care? It wasn't a bio hazard, it wasn't rotting.

Siblings often say good-bye after a baby dies, maybe they thought home was a better environment.

And this isn't like seeing a parent or someone they knew while alive after they died. It is a tiny baby they never knew, they aren't seeing how different it looked.Where did it say they "forced" the children?

I never lost a baby. I doubt I would take one home if I did, but I won't even judge a jerk like this for it. After you let go of that baby, you won't see it again.

I do have friends who have lost babies, earlier then the 20 weeks, but those that did best did their grieving in some ceremonial way, honoring that life. My sister had an abortion after learning the child had severe defects, she had a private ceremony too. No, she didn't take it home.

Even assholes grieve. By the time I was 20 weeks pregnant I was very in love with "it". Don't know how I'd grieve, but it would have torn my heart out and I won't judge what someone else did.

[Kire]

122. I wouldn't be surprised if he runs for President (and wins)

I'd kill myself, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[Junkdrawer]

130. It shows Ricky is a "true believer" and THAT'S why the RW will...

pull out all the stops to see him re-elected. Condi, Bush, and Santorum are all easily-manipulated "true believers" and thus perfect for the job of window dressing in this through-the-rabbit-hole world.

[KingFlorez]

125. Not being rude, but

I was creeped out when I saw that they took the fetus home.

[CoffeeCat]

136. My problem with this...

...is Santorum's insensitivity to his own very-young children.

The way I read the article--he forced his children to hold the baby, in order to demonstrate that this IS a baby and not a "fetus." He appeared to use his dead child to indoctrinate his children into the pro-life cause.

Santorum has very small children. I have a five-year-old and a 4-year old. I can't imagine exposing them to a 20-week old baby. A 20-week old baby weighs less than a pound and is translucent. I think it would be highly disturbing for a child to see this. Furthermore, I have no faith in Santorum to be sensitive and nurturing with this children--and to help them grieve. I think he'd be more focused on shocking them into the notion that, "Some people want to kill babies like this and daddy is trying to stop them!"

It's as if he offered up his own child as an anti-liberal teaching moment. That's what I don't like and it bothers me.

I don't care if he took the baby home, took pictures of him and slept with him. I would never question how someone grieves.

However, I don't like it that this guy ignores the sensitivities of his own children to play politics with his dead baby.

[tx_dem41]

141. Many are playing politics with his dead baby. n/t

[DS1]

137. I LOVE IT WHEN THIS TOPIC COMES UP

FUCK YEAH!!!!

[jmowreader]

138. Gabriel Michael isn't what's worrying me about Santorum

According to the same article, Santorum teaches classes in Catholicism in his office to Republican senators only, is a leader in applying religious dogma to government institutions, and altered his child's death certificate from "20-week-old fetus" to "20-week-old baby." (Actually, the term "baby" makes more sense than "fetus" in this case because he wasn't stillborn, he lived two hours after birth--and as I've always said, once it's born it's a baby. Still, the fucker altered an official government document because he didn't like one of the words on it.)

Personally, I don't care if he has a hundred pictures of his dead child. I don't care if he paints a huge picture of him on the side of his car, gets Gabriel Michael's portrait tattooed on his chest, has a huge birthday party every year for Gabriel Michael, names his house the Gabriel Michael Manor or anything else he does to mourn. But dammit, I don't want to live in a fucking theocracy and Santorum is attempting to turn this country into one. That is what we need to be worried about.

If you want to ridicule someone's grief, leave Rick Santorum the hell alone and go to http://www.yateskids.org/funeral_service.php . Yes, this is the transcript of the funeral service for the five children of Andrea and Russell Yates. Rusty Yates wonders how such a thing could happen. Well...being a fundamentalist asshole who knocked up his wife after the doctor told him his wife would go off the deep end if she had to take care of another kid might have something to do with it. Being a fundamentalist asshole who sold his house and moved his four-child family into a Greyhound bus after he heard that the Bible says to live simply might have had something to do with it. Being a fundamentalist asshole who wouldn't lift a finger to help raise his kids after he heard the Bible says you need to stay within your roles (and the role of the woman is to raise the family, while the role of the man is to cause its size to increase) might have had something to do with it. Russell Fucking Yates (who published his wife's medical records on the Internet) needs the shit kicked out of him, but since I'm not close enough to do it myself all I can do is say mean things about him.

[Siena]

142. I am horrified!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[resultswithstyle]

144. tax write off

I wonder if they called it a 20-week year old baby to get a tax write off. Either way life is life either inside a womb or outside a womb and if your alive in the USA you pay taxes or you are someone elses tax write-off.

[Lerkfish]

148. the things you do in grief are not always understood by outsiders.

there is no lower emotional point in life than grieving a lost child. However anyone gets through it, without harming others, is a topic that should be handled sensitively.
As much as I don't like Santorum, I think using this to attack him is counterproductive.

[tx_dem41]

149. Thanks, Lerkfish.

[cbear70]

150. Seriously

I cannot believe what I am reading. I was hurt last night and its just not stopping today. I was going to stay away but the clueless comments need to be addressed.

Please do me a favor. Make some calls. Due to the ignorance and callousness in this thread, there is no way in hell I am going to point out links to correct your foolishness. I will not subject the mothers and fathers I help on a daily basis to your rudeness. Yes it is the norm to hug your CHILD when he/she dies.They send in a perinatal loss nurse, a nurse just for this situation. You are taught by the hospital that it is okay and healthy to hold your child, to let your children hold their brother/sister to say goodbye. Other family members, grandmothers, grandfathers are also encouraged. There is a packet of information that is given to you that explains all the options and yes one option is to take a child home if you feel that you need to. That is a personal choice. I too almost died so it was not an option for us, I can't say what we would have done , nor would I share it with you. Also Santorum's child was considered a stillbirth, not a miscarriage.

Normally there is a wonderful degree of intelligence at DU but throughout this thread there has been nothing but disgust and rudeness. Quite frankly, alot of you are ignorant and uneducated when it comes to the loss of a child. You have no idea what you are speaking about. The organization I belong to is worldwide. The mothers and fathers are from all over the US as well as all over the world. And yes, those of you who ridiculed, did isolate those of us who have lost a child and chose to hold our child.

This is not about abortion. This is about losing a child that was wanted and loved and learning how to grieve that child. This is about hospitals and counselors understanding loss and being more like the cultures around the world that do not run , nor make fun of death.

I am so tired of your posts about the unborn and about your use of the word Fetus. Those of you that engage in this behavior have no idea how hateful you are and how hurtful you are. You speak about the freepers being rude yet you do the same thing.

You need to step back and understand. You need to learn before you say such ridiculous things and then you need to use some compassion before posting.

[tx_dem41]

151. You're beautiful, Cbear!

What a wonderful post.

[Skinner]

155. I'm locking this.

I guess I think that DUers should show a little more sensitivity when it comes to discussing how someone handles a miscarriage.