I am satisfied with the government, the country and its military

[demgurl]

This is a partial reply I got from yet another email I sent out last night in regards to torture. The whole sentence could not fit in the subject line so I had to edit it. Here was the whole reply:

Please omit me from any future mailings of this type. I am wholly satisfied with the country in which I live and its government and its military.

So here is someone who is fine with the torture and killing of Iraqi prisoners. In fact, let me go a step further, it is someone who is satisfied with our government doing such techniques. I honestly wish there was some way to take out an ad in the paper and expose people who say it is all OK. Of course, even if that is possible, it may cause a rift and divorce within my family since this was a family member.

I am trying to take this email in stride because I knew this person was a rabid republican and sort of expected an email just plainly stating not to send any more like I did, but I did not expect him to say he approved.

I have decided to salute such people like this - sometimes if you do not laugh you will cry. Here is what I wrote, about this email, to a friend earlier. I have blacked out the business name and his name to protect my family member:

Hi, you may know me as XXXX XXXXXXX of XxxxxXX but lately I have been reading about the war atrocities committed in our name. At first I did not know what to do. I wanted to call Mr. Bush and tell him how proud I am but this seemed inadequate somehow. It was then that I knew what I had to do.

I bought a George Bush war bond. This is not the war bond that your father bought. With George Bush's war bonds your funds will be invested in dogs, whips and electrical cords. No more will our troops have to improvise and go without in times of torture

One hundred percent of your money will go to getting our troops the best in torture equipment. Have you ever laid awake in bed at night and worried our troops may get hurt by a stray electrical wire or a dog that has gone astray? You will now be able to sleep soundly knowing the only ones in danger are the terrorists.

So don't go out and buy a small yellow magnetic ribbon. Show your real support of the troops with the new Bush War Bonds. Think of all of our children in our troops and do it for them.

I am XXXX XXXXXX and I support this torture.

Just wanted to share!

demgurl

[Claymore]

1. ...

Help me understand: You sent this to someone you knew was going to react negatively? Why? What purpose did it serve? Would you have appreciated him sending you pro-repube emails? I honestly don't understand the concept of "schooling" people who have already made up their minds, especially those I still call friend. Help me understand.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. If email were around in Germany in 38, we might be reading a different

history book.

Why should she remain silent? Why still call someone a friend who refuses to think?

[Claymore]

4. ...

{If email were around in Germany in 38, we might be reading a different history book.}

Does this statement have a point?



{Why should she remain silent?}

Did I suggest that? I simply asked the question, why would you knowingly provoke an argument from someone who is supposed to be a friend.



{Why still call someone a friend who refuses to think?}

If you start alienating everyone who doesn't think like you do, you're likely to be rather lonely after a bit. Besides, isn't association the best teacher? The common refrain I get is that Dems are whack-jobs...foil hatters...conspiracy driven zealots. How do you suggest turning that opinion around? Sending them emails that do nothing but reinforce that stereotype?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. Answering your last statement. If you are a Dem and your friend

tells you Dems are whackjobs, are they not calling you the same? What kind of friend is that? How does countering their points prove you are a whack job?

[Claymore]

9. ....

{Answering your last statement. If you are a Dem and your friend
tells you Dems are whackjobs, are they not calling you the same?}

No. They say I'm one of the "good ones" whatever that's supposed to mean.



{What kind of friend is that?}

An old one from high school who's been there through thick and thin. I don't discard friends over disagreements.



{How does countering their points prove you are a whack job?}

Honestly, it depends on the subject. It's rather difficult to counter some of the things they've brought up. For instance, during the '04 election, they started in on Dennis' contrail legislation and the Dept. of Peace. To tell the truth, I thought they were full of shit. Also, I'm not sure how often you engage 'pubes, but they also love to discount certain sources. If you mention the NYT or the BBC, you can forget convincing them of the validity of the information. To them, it might as well be coming straight from the DNC HQ's.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. Ok..so you're one of the "good ones"

I've also had friends I've been there for through thick and thin that can't resist cramming it up my ass that Bush got re-elected. I am not going to allow them to disrespect me like that simply because we may not agree.

Of course, your friends will "attack the messenger." Nevermind that Judy Miller from the NYT wrote all the stories claiming Saddam had WMD.

So who do you let them quote? Fox News? Run by Roger Ailes from Richard Nixon's dirty trickster staff?

[Claymore]

19. ....

{I am not going to allow them to disrespect me like that simply because we may not agree.}

Did I say I allow myself to be abused?



{Of course, your friends will "attack the messenger." Nevermind that Judy Miller from the NYT wrote all the stories claiming Saddam had WMD.}

And this wouldn't be the first time that a reporter got something incredibly wrong. Besides, you just made their case for them. If the NYT reporter got the WMD stuff wrong, not to mention the Jayson Blair debacle, it plays into their hands. I prefer to use sources that cannot be discounted out of pocket.


{So who do you let them quote? Fox News? Run by Roger Ailes from Richard Nixon's dirty trickster staff?}

I don't 'let' them do anything. I'm not their dad. This is the way this works...I get to believe what I believe and they get to believe whatever they want.

Also, I'm sensing a great deal of hostility coming from your posts. do we have a problem?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. I'm not responding with hostility. First, you took the poster

to task for responding..I then stated why I felt she should not supress herself..you then stated what you said and I responded to it. :shrug:

BTW..to claim I played into their hands is triangulating a bit, no?

What sources do you prefer to cite?

[Claymore]

22. ...

{I'm not responding with hostility}

My bad. It's difficult to gage "emotion" via an internet post sometimes.



{First, you took the poster to task for responding }

No, I took her to task for provoking an argument with a friend who she knew would object to getting what they were certain to view as "left wing propaganda". I know that I don't appreciate people trying to "teach" me about what I should believe, so I refuse to do it myself.



{BTW..to claim I played into their hands is triangulating a bit, no?}

I'm not sure what you mean by that.




{What sources do you prefer to cite?}

It depends on the topic. I like to cite government sponsored findings when possible and appropriate. I also try to use NPR and PBS, but they think those sources are biased. I avoid some of the more obvious outlets (again, they don't trust most foreign news outlets or any from the major urban centers), and on occasion I try to use their own sources against them. Surprisingly, the more conservative of my friends have no love for Bu$h. They cite his rampant spending and his stand on illegal immigration as reasons for their disdain. They don't even bother to make excuses for him anymore. They also think he's a sell-out when it comes to dealing with Democrats. With their party firmly in control of all branches of government, they expected a more robust and emboldened 2nd term. This hasn't materialized. I submitted to them that he suckered them. This revelation didn't set well, as you can imagine. Their support for the cowboy now stems solely from his "war on terrah". When asked who they intend on supporting for president in the next election, at least one of them has said he's jumping ship for the Constitution Party (good luck with that). Another one said he wants the 'pubes to become more like the Libertarians (great...Neal Boortz and loonies who think Area 51 is eat up with aliens). And yet the other two say they're likely to vote for whoever is the nominee for the GOP. They use the oft heard "lesser of two evils" gambit, to which I replied, "the lesser of two evils is still evil". I actually got some applause for that one once when we were in line buying beer.

[demgurl]

6. Claymore....

Yes, I sent it to someone that is republican but as I also told another family member, I do not think of torture as a democrat or republican issue.

I do not send out things such as lies * has said because I know that would be a waste. I feel strongly that we are all complicit in the torture if we do not speak out. I believe a lot f people support this war because they do not realize that it is not a bunch of fraternity pranks. Perhaps I am naive.

The other night I reached my breaking point when I broke down and cried over a prisoner having his penis cut over and over again. I sat at my table and literally cried. It had quite an effect on me and I felt I had to tell people what is going on. If they can sleep knowing what is happening then so be it.

No, I would not appreciate him sending me republican emails but I would have just politely asked to be taken off the list. I would never admit I ever supported torture. His email is nice and to the point. I did not mind his email as much as I was shocked at someone, I know, admitting they are fine with the government torturing and killing people.

this was not my opinion I sent out, it was newspaper articles stating the facts.

I understand people making up their minds on which party they are a member of and I will never try to change a die hard. I thought it was firmly established fact that most people are against torture. Why do you think so many people are up in arms about our practices? I honestly do not see this as a republican or democrat issue. I see it as a human rights issue.

demgurl

[Claymore]

8. ...

{No, I would not appreciate him sending me republican emails but I would have just politely asked to be taken off the list.}

Which is what your friend should have done, I agree.




{I honestly do not see this as a republican or democrat issue. I see it as a human rights issue}

Very commendable. I humbly beg forgivness.

[demgurl]

21. Humbly beg forgiveness?

For what? You asked questions, questions designed to make me think if I hadn't already. Any time you go out there and ask questions designed to hopefully get someone to consider something else, it can not be all that bad.

I answered your questions and hopefully it may have expanded your take on the email situation. Amnesty International, The Geneva Convention and The International Red Cross are not political groups as such. They are dedicated to protecting human life.

Torture is a world issue. The ripple effects are more than one can comprehend as seen by the rioting because of the Koran being flushed down the toilet. If one boils this down to a republican versus democrat issue then they are truly not seeing the bog world picture.

I would like to share part of the email I sent out, if you would humor me for a moment. Excuse the religious overtone, but I am giving it to you as I gave it to them:

May I end with a few peaceful words? Many enlightened people believe we are all one. Each one of us is connected whether we realize it or not. When we torture someone we are torturing a brother, sister, father, mother. When we kill someone, there is a family out there that will never see their loved one again. The mother will never cradle her son. The father will never marry off his daughter. The child will never know his parent. One person is connected with another who is connected with another and on it goes until it comes back to us.

What-so-ever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me. When we torture someone, we torture Jesus. When we let torture happen, we let them torture God.

Thank you for humoring me. It may give you a small insight into my mind and what I have written.

This effects our soldiers. (have you ever heard of the Stanford experiment? This effects the people being tortured. It effects the tortured people's families in ways that we may not fully be known for years. It also effects our relations to other countries and the view the world has of us.

Their view may not seem important but enough people put pressure on their governments, there could be implications we have never even thought of.

Torture is a human rights issue and an United States problem. It may go on because our government allows it to but it is in no way the problem of one party versus another.

Your questions are appreciated.

demgurl

[SemperEadem]

2. Sounds like one less person to invite to your home for the holidays

they have a right to believe what they want---and you have a right not to be around them, especially in your own home.

A person who takes that point of view is so bound up by the ignorance of their pride that they will do everything in their power to ignore reason and logic, even if it was snatching back their head and shitting down their throat.

Sometimes, there's no reaching them... they are adrift on a sea of stupidity.

[Claymore]

5. ...

{Sometimes, there's no reaching them... they are adrift on a sea of stupidity.}

My parents don't agree with my idealogy, should I tell them to get screwed? My grandmother is a church going fundie. Should I stop calling her on Sundays to check on her? The best man at my wedding is a repube currently serving in Iraq. Should I pray for him to be blown to bits? Clearly all of these people are "adrift on a sea of stupidity" and we're better off without them, correct?

[meganmonkey]

13. I can relate a little - my long-term boyfriend's family is politically

opposite from me. But one-on-one they are kind and loving people who would do anything for me (even though I am a liberal ;) ).

I do NOT judge them, and we avoid political discussions as a rule. It works well.

There are a couple of relatives that I will engage with sometimes about specific issues. I make very slow progress over weeks and months, convincing them that this admin really is lying, cheating, torturing and stealing. I just have to be VERY careful how I do it, and how I word things, and not to mention political parties at all.

But sometimes it is hard at DU, in the heat of conversations, not to make blanket statements about 'fundies' or whatever, I personally try to be really careful about it but I usually let it go when others do it, they're just blowing steam because it is SO frustrating and difficult to understand how kind, good-hearted people can indirectly condone the horrible things being done in our name.

:hi:

[question everything]

16. Welcome to DU, Claymore

I see that you are going to be an active poster, great

:toast:

[Claymore]

17. ...

{I see that you are going to be an active poster, great}

Thanks for the welcome, but my time online is limited. I do enjoy lurking, however. lol

[demgurl]

10. Well, we go to their house for Chrismas gatherings.....

this year I am thinking I may be going to friend's houses and not any family at all. Sad really but they draw the lines as I do.

demgurl

[ArkDem]

11. incredibly clever

[TumorSupressor]

12. Once again...

I think freeway signs are a good way to expose these jerks... If you don't honk, your complicit with torture and treason!

[sexybomber]

15. Hiya! Welcome to DU!

:hi:

Good in theory, probably impractical though, 'cause I don't know of any billboard companies that would agree to have that on one of their signs, no matter WHAT you paid them.

Perhaps some guerilla redecoration is in order! :evilgrin:

[question everything]

18. About these yellow (or stars and tripes) magnetic ribbon

When I first noticed them last year, before I could get close enough to read them, I posted a question here, wondered whether they were implying support for Bush/cheney.

Several people replied that they, too, had them, one even attached a photo of the back of his car with the yellow magnet, a DU sticker and another one - don't remember whether it was for Kerry or Kucinich.. anyway, certainly not someone to be confused with a freeper.

But I am still not sure. The other day I saw another (not even a monster one but a sedan) with a yellow magnetic ribbon, but, next to it, another sticker saying: I support my president and the troops.

So I guess I still reserve opinion about these ribbons.