Re: The Finger, If I can try to summarize...

[RobertSeattle]

1. A well known comedian displays a video of the President that makes it look like the President is “flipping the bird” in a rather quick arm motion during a period when his administration is undergoing a criminal investigation and stronger press inquiries compared to only a few months prior. (It's understandable the President is stressed)
2. A well meaning person captures a QuickTime video of what the celebrity shows, but at about half the resolution as the original.
3. When the lower resolution video is show, to many it looks like the President is “flipping the bird”.
4. Other well meaning people take stills of the video that make it look even more like the President is “flipping the bird” due to low resolution, pixilation, and camera angle.
5. The President, known to make strange gestures and with a documented history of “flipping the bird” make it easy to believe he is is “flipping the bird” on the video.
6. The White House Press Secretary won't deny it, because from his vantage point it is ridiculous, adding to the meme that the President “flipped the bird”.
7. But if you look at the original video (#1 above) in slow motion one quickly realizes (much to my dismay!) that it in was the President's THUMB. Now BACK to the PLAME investigation and DSM...

[Guckert]

1. i never noticed his long, skinny "thumb" in the middle of his hand..?

[RobertSeattle]

2. It's camera angle

Stick your arm out. Make a fist and stick your thumb straight out. Tilt your arm about 15 degrees up. Tilt you wrist a tiny bit back as well.

You wrist looks small, your thumb looks propotionally larger, ergo people mistake it for a middle finger (like I did for 10 hours today)

Once you see it is slow motion and higher resolution there is no denying it.

[Carolab]

3. What a load of CRAP.

There were JOURNALISTS and other WITNESSES there who SAW IT.

LENO/NBC most certainly CLEARED IT before they ever went on the air with it and said/implied he flipped a bird.

STOP apologizing for the asshole.

He flipped the people/press off.

It's on video. There are WITNESSES.

HE HAS DONE IT MULTIPLE TIMES IN PUBLIC AND ON CAMERA BEFORE. HE HAS BEEN WITNESSED DOING IT IN PUBLIC AND ON CAMERA BEFORE. IT IS A FAVORITE GESTURE OF HIS.

HE DID IT. PERIOD.

END OF DISCUSSION.

(Now, back to Plamegate.)

[ClusterFreak]

9. You said it!

It's either a middle finger, or it's a pen propped up between his index and middle finger. Either way, he "flipped the bird" au naturel, or he enlisted the aid of a fucking pen to do it.

It is absolutely not a thumb. No way in hell. You have to be on crack to believe it's a thumb.

For. Fuck. Sakes.

Chimpy is a well-known fratboy, a self-involved sucky-baby, and a "got-to-have-it-my-way-and-if-I-don't-I-throw-a-hissy-fucking-fit" asshole.

He did it. He did it. He flipped the !@#$%&-ing bird.

:banghead:


....or it's a thumb....what the hell do I know.

:rofl:

[Guaranteed]

12. No, he didn't. He didn't. He didn't.

It is most definitely, proof-positive, his thumb.

There's no question.

[RobertSeattle]

10. ok

Your UPPER CASES win!

Good Night!

[WeRQ4U]

23. Those caps lock letters are OBNOXIOUS.

Settle down. If you're SO convinced that this is a middle finger and SO convinced that NBC/Media in general wouldn't DARE use this without actually VERIFYING it for authenticity, then what about this:

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/

""update: John Godfrey (Dow Jones Newswire) writes, "I was in the scrum of reporters at the event. Bush did not flip anyone off. He was clearly giving a thumbs up in response to a question shouted from the crowd." I called John to verify the email was from him and to ask him if there was any doubt in his mind, he said there was not. I forgot to ask him if he's sighted. ""

So is this guy some apologist as well? Is this guy not just as credible as Jay Leno or AOL? After all, he would NEVER dare lay his reputation on the line without actually verifying it right? Or do we not believe him because he isn't saying what we WISH he would say.

Whether you want to believe it or not, and regardless of how many capital letters you include in your post, IT'S A FRICKEN THUMB!!!

[Carolab]

61. John Godfrey writes for Dow Jones Newswire

same company that publishes the Wall Street Journal.

Yeah, I SO believe HIM.

[WeRQ4U]

67. What, Jay Leno and AOL are now bastions of reliability?

Give me a break. :eyes:

[Carolab]

68. So, have you seen Leno retract anything yet?

Or has the White House come right out and said "it was his thumb"?

No.

[WeRQ4U]

69. So let me get this straight.

You have already condemned the guy as guilty. You are waiting for the President or the media, neither of which you have ever trusted, to come out and prove his INNOCENCE? That's ass backwards. It's not how we work.

I can't compete with this backspeak.

[Carolab]

78. Who is "we"?

It's how I work.

I'm saying if he's innocent, why doesn't Scotty say so? Because he can't. Because it would be another lie. Another lie that someone else could come out and prove AS a lie.

The media? Is Leno the media? Why hasn't Leno retracted the video and the inference that is was a one-finger salute?

Anyone in the media I DO trust? Helen Thomas. David Gregory. If either of them were in the "scrum" and said that it was a thumbs up then I'd believe them.

[WeRQ4U]

82. "We" would be America, it's judicial system etc.

You know the old addage, "innocent until proven guilty" right? Well, in this situation, you've done the opposite. You've already condemned him as morally reprehesible, and you will only believe in his innocence if it is proven. Whether you like to believe it or not, you're using a double standard, simply because you don't like him. That's all I'm saying. You can justify it any way you want to, but that's the way it is.

WOuld you be both judge and jury this quickly if it were Nancy Pelosi or John COnyers and there were accusations against them? I think not. That is my point.

This is ridiculous. I can't believe I"m still arguing about this.

[lies and propaganda]

90. i love your handle.

i miss jimmy jeff.

[Lautremont]

4. I certainly take your point,

but without a chance to see the large, clear, slo-mo version themselves, I think you'll begin to feel like a bit of a wallbanger around here. People very much want it to be his finger. It looks like his finger to me, but I work in video (specifically at the moment with a fuzzy video that needs enhancing), so I know what you're saying.

Still looks funny, though, and I've tried the arm exercise and everything.

[Guaranteed]

5. They're not going to get it.

It's a shining moment for sociology.

[Stirk]

28. Isn't it, though?

It's absolutely surreal. Reminds me of that Star Trek episode where one group was white on the left/black on the right, and the other was vice-versa... and they despised each other.

We've actually had people here shouting "Bush apologist" and "freeper!" at anyone who did not see a finger.

[kansasblue]

6. I also viewed the 19 quicktime frames......

and I have to agree with Robert. As it comes up...and down it looks more like his thumb. And I can hold my hand out and turn it so my thumb is in the middle as I view it. Angle my arm forward, bring my wrist down and and push my thumb up so that it looks like the longest digit . Witnesses? I haven't read any accounts of witnesses saying one way or the other. You have links? I've seen other video where he does flip. I don't doubt he does it alot. But this one at best the WH can say "thumb" and there's nothing we can do.

Have someone review the video and post all 19 frames. You'll see what we mean.

[Kurovski]

25. "Back...and to the left. Back...and to the left."

[Rufus T. Firefly]

57. There was a second flipper.

You just can't see him on the film. Maybe CIA or the Mafia.

Hey, maybe it was Valerie Plame!

[Cha]

79. The Grassy Knoll

Flipper!

All bush has done is Flip off America..it's Symbolism at its Zenith.

[ElectroPrincess]

7. Too bad for Bush Co. God made "frame grab enhancement" :P

[RobertSeattle]

8. "Enhancement" is the operative term.

[ElectroPrincess]

13. Yeah, I saw the other thread you started ...

It is convincing to me albeit northing's EXACT in Photo Morph land.

IMO, he's flipping the American People "the bird" :P

[Guaranteed]

11. LOL where'd that thumb come from?

I'm sorry- that was Photoshopped.

Look at the proportions in the width. That's ridiculous.

[ElectroPrincess]

16. Just curious BGL, have you ever played team sports?

If you have enjoyed the hell out of winning, you and yours would consider STFU. Why? We're on a roll. ;)

[Guaranteed]

17. Yeah, I have. I don't believe in cheating, though.

That picture's bullshit, and you know it.

When we have to resort to THAT kind of shit, we're just as bad as them.

NO LYING. NO MORE BULLSHIT.

I have NO respect for that.

[ElectroPrincess]

18. There's a big difference between CHEATING

and forwarding a "somewhat lame" explanation that would cover the ASS of your opponent.

Just a friendly suggestion. :-)

[Guaranteed]

19. No, I'm covering OUR ass.

Because when you make assertions that are easily disprovable- and these assertions HAVE been disproved- by photographs, you don't want to work from a foregone conclusion. You want to look closely at and evaluate what you're presented with in order to determine the truth-value of the assertion.

Otherwise, this kind of stupid shit comes back to bite you in the ass.

INTEGRITY.

[ElectroPrincess]

22. OK but you just don't GET IT ...

We're talking POLITICS not ACADEMICS.

Didn't your momma ever teach you that life is short, hard and often unfair? Further, not even you and your other pure minded souls ALWAYS play by the rules.

No, the enhancement angle is also a valid theory.

But what you FAIL to understand is that BUSH and his EXECUTIVE BRANCH are our *opponents*. Therefore, it is NOT our job to help THEM explain away an immoral gesture.

I have no guilt for "holding back" any alternative viewpoint that may harm my party.

If you want the Democratic Party to lose big, keep up this attitude when it comes to political scrapping.

[Guaranteed]

24. Apparently, in your mind it's our job to set ourselves up

to look like fucking idiots.

There are PICTURES. This isn't he said/she said. You get it RIGHT the first time, or suffer the consequences.

It's already been shown that it's his thumb:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4216649&mesg_id=4216968

So, apparently, what you're saying is that, not only have you no regard for the truth, but that you're reckless enough to attack in a manner that is just going to get thrown back in our faces and embarrass us.

And don't pull this fucking loyalty shit on me. If someone gives me the choice between truth and loyalty, I choose truth every time. That's what gives meaning to the things that I say and WHO I AM. I will NEVER sacrifice that.

I'm better off that way. DU would be, too.

[ElectroPrincess]

26. No BGL, it's not set up to embarrass us ...

Of course integrity is important.

However, and this is a big HOWEVER, you have an equal chance of being wrong. Until you are *convinced* that it's a thumb beyond all doubt, then it's not integrity but arrogance that motivates such pontification.

It's not about bringing down an immoral Executive Branch but touting what great skills one has in photo analyzing.

I believe that with regard to "finger-gate" that the jury's still out.

Just my 2 cents. ;)

[Guaranteed]

27. I am entirely, 100% convinced.

It's his thumb.

On the record. I've already put $100 on it. And I profess NO skills as far as Photoshopping. I'm just looking at the pictures- just like EVERYBODY should be able to do.

Being convinced, I argue the fact for the sake of DU.

And I'm hoping like HELL that SOMEBODY listens.

On edit: And, you know what? When I see this kind of shit, I'm ASHAMED. It's a sociologist's dream, this kind of phenomenon.

[ElectroPrincess]

31. OK, that's commendable

OK BGL, I can fully respect that level of confidence within you is genuine.

Integrity is important.

However, I hope that you are wrong and further study proves that it was THE BIRD! <g>

Nope, I think you wear blinders and that there is much middle ground and other discreet ways of getting at the truth.

There's far too many shades of gray in arriving at the truth. Often times it's the approach and path we choose to follow that makes all the difference.

Understood. You're convinced but I'm NOT. :-)

[Guaranteed]

33. What about the picture you posted?

I said that it was ridiculous- not because I'm an expert Photoshopper (which I've never even used), but because of the thumb that suddenly appeared in the photograph.

The fact that someone would DO that is ridiculous.

Do you see what's wrong with it, and do you think we should be doing that?

[ElectroPrincess]

36. How can I begin to

explain what I consider obvious? Really BGL, we have been raised in entirely different settings and life challenges.

Admittedly, I do not know photo enhancement at all. So, I am not an expert. You and yours claim expertise by stating that you are 100% convinced.

Therefore, Based on what I KNOW to be Bush's past behavior, my bet's on it being his middle finger, pure and simple.

THE ANSWER is sure to come from people who are TRUE Experts in this type of photo analyzing stuff. <g>

NO! I don't want to perpetuate a lie but was responding equally in kind to "it's a thumb" declaration.

Time (and much more knowledgeable people in this area than you or I) will tell.

[Guckert]

66. That is CLEARLY a thumb....DUH.....thats where my thumb is??????

[RobertSeattle]

14. OK, one last thing...

:evilgrin:

[ElectroPrincess]

15. Oh! Stop sporting your snotty little baby pictures ...

TEASE!

[RevolutionStartsNow]

20. One, Two, Three, Four...

I declare a thumb war!

:)

(my kids were playing this the other day -- that's what all this thumb-not thumb nonsense reminds me of)

[WeRQ4U]

21. AMEN!! Unfortunately, you're wasting your time.

I've been trying to convince people of this all day.

[Libby2]

29. If it is his thumb

why is Leno making such a big deal out of promising that the tape has not been edited?
That doesn't make sense to me.

[Guaranteed]

30. Because when you look at it on the video, it looks like he's giving the

bird.

I thought it was the bird, when I first saw it. I posted on it a couple of times under that impression.

Then someone else, Oreo, I believe, brought up that it looked like he was giving the thumbs-up. I slowed down the video and looked, and, sure enough, it was his thumb.

He's just giving a thumbs up.

[ElectroPrincess]

32. Then show us CLEARLY the picture ...

Face it BGL, you can't be 100% convinced without a clear picture? Show us your evidence?

[Guaranteed]

35. Did you read the post I linked you to, earlier?

That was my analysis. I think it's pretty clear.

Here it is again:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4216649&mesg_id=4216968

Further, here's a sequence that someone else posted in the same thread that confirms it beyond a reasonable doubt.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4216649&mesg_id=4216942

Look at how the thumb moves to the left. You can see his wrist swivel, and his top knuckles come into view on the right.

That's his thumb, beyond any reasonable doubt.

[ElectroPrincess]

37. And your credentials are ? No, it was not convincing to me ...

Do you hold and background experience in this area? If so, I will consider retracting my statements.

[Guaranteed]

40. I think we've already been over that.

Now you're just playing.

Did you see the three-frame sequence? What did you see there?

[ElectroPrincess]

44. What are your credentials?

No I'm not playing you. However, you can NOT speak with authority because you can TWEAK with video.

But what the hell, you could be right, but I think NOT. Again, we need a true expert to weigh in here. It's been real but that's the bottom line. :-)

[Guaranteed]

45. Well, having two eyes helps.

I can just tell what I'm looking at, I guess, both in the still and that three-frame sequence.

It also helps to be willing to admit it. :)

[Rufus T. Firefly]

53. The thing that made me believe...

(at first) that it was the middle finger was how the arm jerked up and back down. It looked like how someone who was pissed off (maybe somebody shouted the wrong question) and decided spontaneously to flip them of.

BUT...the thinness of the wrist and the fact that I simulated it myself makes me think it is the thumb.

And, most importantly, they have deniablilty and it really isn't important. He doesn't HAVE to flip us off - he's thinking "f you" all the time about all of us.

[Guaranteed]

55. Absolutely. The aggressiveness of it.

It looks, still, on the video, like he's flipping us off.

[DerBeppo]

34. pretty good proof it's the thumb...

seriously, poor res or not, there's no way that a middle finger.

[ElectroPrincess]

38. it hasn't been raised up ... it proves nothing

[DerBeppo]

39. it's on it's way down

i took the cap myself.

[ElectroPrincess]

41. So? On way UP or way DOWN, it still proves nothing :-)

What are your credentials?

[Guaranteed]

42. Well, since you can see the finger clearly detached from the rest of the

knuckles as he swivels his wrist, people who are honestly evaluating it would say that it does.

They'd say it pretty clearly proves that it's his thumb.

[DerBeppo]

43. my credentials?

well i got my b.a. in quicktime and a masters in ms paint.

i hit the print screen button off of this link http://movies.crooksandliars.com/bush-flips-press.mov

now slide the cursor to where the picture has it and bingo. hey, if you pause the clip and use the arrow keys, you can go frame by frame yourself and confirm it.

[Guaranteed]

46. ROFL nt

[ElectroPrincess]

48. You're welcome :P

[ElectroPrincess]

47. I won't believe it until more evidence is in ...

Nothing is clear in these frames.

Sorry, but that's just my way. :-)

[Guaranteed]

49. But you'll believe the other way as long as Jay Leno says it? nt

[ElectroPrincess]

51. It must be hell to live around anyone as perfect as you ...

Hey, I could be wrong, but so could you and your b.a. buddy.

Back off and let's see what other folks think who also have analyzed the video.

You have a right to be confident but not obnoxiously pompous. I'm admittedly humbled ... well somewhat.

Let's get some more input from OTHERS?

[Guaranteed]

54. Alright. I'll concede, then.

;)

[ElectroPrincess]

59. Damn!

There just may be hope for World Peace yet. :smoke: Points begrudgingly taken and good night. :hi:

[Bouncy Ball]

50. I have to say...

I've been looking at this sucker all day, reading everything here and there and everywhere about it. Looking, looking, looking. Still shots, slow-mo portions.

I'm convinced....it's a thumbs up. One thing ultimately got me on this: his wrist. Look at the width of his wrist. That would have the be the fucking tiniest wrist on any adult you've ever seen. His thumb is facing us as we look at this and what looks like a finger to the left of the thumb is his bent over fingers.

Yeah, ok jump me now. Everyone here knows I hate that motherfucker with all the fiery passions of a thousand burning hells, but it's not his middle finger. He IS arrogant enough to do that, but the wrist is WAY too skinny to be full on, and it would have to be full on to be the middle finger.

Of course, he's been known to do it before and it totally fits his narcissistic personality, but that's not his middle finger.

[Guaranteed]

56. That's what convinced me too.

Someone else mentioning it made me question. Then I looked at the wrist. It's pretty clear.

[Bouncy Ball]

58. This was the nail in the middle finger coffin for me:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4217388&mesg_id=4217700

When I first saw the Leno video, it sure as hell DID look like a flip off.

But then the more I watched it, the more I realized it looked "off" for the middle finger. Something was wrong. Then I read someone here who mentioned the wrist. Aha, it WASN'T wide enough to be full on. And then that shot of him lowering his hand. He's clearly got his thumb up there.

I'd SO love for him to have a huge fucking meltdown in front of the cameras, and I think there's a chance of it before a year or two is out (he's really not doing well), but this ain't it.

[Guaranteed]

60. Yup. That's the clincher. nt

[Nevernose]

52. That ain't no thumb

Unfo0rtunately, no one cares anymore. Of course if the Big Dog had done it, it would be grounds for impeachment. But if Dubya does it, it's why "we" love him so uch -- he's a man of the people.

And camera perspective only goes do far. For the record, I get ansy at the thought of conspiracy theorists as much as most people do, but that was a goddamned middle finger if I've ever seen one, and I've seen one enough to know the difference.

It doesn't "look" like he's flipping the bird. He IS flipping the bird!

[Carolab]

62. Damn right.

Look at how that arm comes up and rotates in. A thumb would virtually disappear at that angle. It's clearly his middle finger.

[DerBeppo]

63. i'll repost this here, as well

thumb up, knuckles out. (as seen in others as well)



ooh...what's that, that's a strange tilt to the left. how could that be the middle finger?



oh that's easy, because it's not.



check the word "terrorism" in the scroll. these three frames are sequential and quick enough to happen within a few frames. now unless we jump off deep end and start pursuing a lizard like removable, slide-o-matic digits type deal, it's about as proven as it will be that it is his thumb.

[Carolab]

65. Whatever.

This is insane.

On edit: I watched that clip again and again and again and it does not look like a thumb at all.

[Fiona]

64. correct

it is a thumb. I thought it was a middle finger at first, but then I looked some more and it is a thumb. What people think is his index finger knuckle is his fingers wrapped around his fist.

This is a silly distraction.

[jazzjunkysue]

70. I've got my own , and it's the bird. His fist is level . Try it yourself.

If you keep your knuckles level, how long can your thumb go? In order to get it that long, with his knuckles level, he'd have to use a finger, not a thumb, and it's not his pinky, kids.

Deal with it. This was him birding the press. That's our commander in chief. (cue marching band)

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. Darn it have some fun and FILE an official campaing

with the FCC I mean what about the children?

(Two can play the same game and this is buckoe fine for the station that carried it or bush)

Hey I will even give you Copps email addy

[email protected]

[Bouncy Ball]

76. What kind of filter was put on that still? It looks really weird.

Try an unfiltered still.

[Carolab]

89. Positutely.

This is a perfect screen shot. It is exactly what I have been saying: anatomically impossible for that to be his thumb.

Like you said: that is him birding the press.

[moondust]

72. It is definitely not a pen.

KO showed the clip several times. One can clearly see that MonkeyBoy has nothing in his right hand either before or after he raises it.

[spacelady]

73. As much as I would have liked it to be the childish "bird"

I reviewed the video once again today. I have credentials as an artist specializing in anatomy. B* has a sickening, talented, PRACTICED gesture that he USED to make points with the followers AND make people who are against him make all the hay they want about it

[spacelady]

74. I am thread killer extraordinaire lately. Oh well what the hell.

[Algorem]

75. nlnn

[spacelady]

77. If you would care to read my analysis

I have 20 years' experience as a monument artist. This means I illustrate portraits, landscapes, machinery, animals, etc. on dark colored granite with a vibrating pen without an eraser. Although I am not an expert in videography, the appearance of a too long digit is a result of motion distortion. Thumb.

[spacelady]

80. why did I reply to 'nlnn'?

[lonestarnot]

81. wrong on both fucking counts! Not a president and is a bird!

x(

or a pen....
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/bush-flips-press.mov

but I think smearing the mfr is fun!

[A Brand New World]

83. I finally saw the video clip tonight on TV (can't remember which show) and

as much as I want to believe he flipped the bird, I can't agree with all of the discussion that's been on here for the past few days. I think it is his thumb. He gave thumbs-up to the reporters. I hate him with a passion and want to always believe the worst about him so it's killing me to say this.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OxQQme]

85. Yup

simian's thumbs are very long.

[speakfree]

86. Sorry, not a finger OR a thumb.

TWO fingers. This is a case where it doesn't help to freeze or zoom. If you just watch the video and consider the context, he is holding up crossed fingers--as in "cross your fingers" that CAFTA will pass. Considering the consequences of CAFTA, he might as well have been flipping American's off, but I don't think he was.

[Vickers]

87. Crossing your fingers can also mean you are lying.

:eyes:

Guess which interpretation I believe?

[speakfree]

88. I couldn't see his lips moving, so I didn't think of that (nt)

[Carolab]

91. Oy. n/t