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7/7: What kind of explosives have been used? Endless contradictions.

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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:05 PM
Original message
7/7: What kind of explosives have been used? Endless contradictions.
Why is it so difficult to figure out what kind of explosives were used?

Basically every day we have a new report what kind of explosives were used in the London bombings.
At first it was:
The rapid-fire explosions in London suggest timers were used to detonate the bombs, a technique that also indicates a level of sophistication that goes beyond a makeshift cell of terrorists. Police also said the 10-pound bombs were made of "high explosives," likely plastic explosives, another indication of a sophisticated terror cell at work.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/326743p-279325c....

Then it is more specific:
A SINGLE bombmaker using high-grade military explosives is believed to be responsible for building the four devices that killed more than 50 people last week, The Times can reveal. ()
They also believe that the materials used were not home made but sophisticated military explosives, possibly smuggled into Britain from the Balkans.
The nature of the explosives appears to be military, which is very worrying, said Superintendent Christophe Chaboud, the chief of the French anti-terrorist police, who was in London to help Scotland Yard.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1690391,0...

The explosive used in the London bomb attacks was almost certainly military TNT originating from former Soviet satellite countries, intelligence sources said yesterday.
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/bfbf76d8-f33a-11d9-843f-00000e...

But the very same day (July 12) el-Nashars appartement was raided and traces of explosives were found in his bathtub.
http://heraldsun.com/nationworld/14-624577.html

Then the official line was that the explosives were home-made:
Police sources quoted in British newspapers said investigators now believed the explosive used was TATP, or triacetone triperoxide, a compound that can be made from easily purchased chemicals and is similar to the material used by attempted "shoe bomber" Richard Reid.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-bri...

Then the home-made explosives got a surprising touch : perfume.
BOMBER Jermaine Lindsay bought innocent designer perfumes and aftershaves as a deadly mix for the London gang's home-made devices, police fear.
Just days before the 7/7 explosions killed at least 55 people, the 19-year-old Jamaican fanatic spent 900 at three shops on dozens of bottles of scent.
The names - Jean Paul Gaultier, Fahrenheit, Emporio Armani and Boss - are the epitome of "decadent" Western luxury.
()
"The effect would be more incendiary, like napalm, rather than highly explosive. It would create more more fire and therefore more burn injuries."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15747958&metho...

And today the whole story changed again: actually nobody so far has the slightest idea what kind of explosives were used in the blasts in London 13 days ago:
But Sir Ian said that at a briefing he attended, "It was made absolutely clear we do not know what this is." ()
Professor Hans Michels, of Imperial College London, said analysis of the mixture of liquids and solids would take time because there might well have been chemical reactions during and since the manufacture of the explosive.
Any mistakes could lead to loss of life as well as vital evidence. "One wrong step and the whole building could blow up."
He said the analysis would be a "painstaking, tedious process. If they knew by the end of the week they would be doing a good job".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,...

I dont know.
Im certainly not an expert. But Ive never ever heard that the analysis of explosive material takes so much time and that so many different and contradictory results are told.





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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. You my friend are one of the reasons
I love this Democratic Underground...very informative story and with links.
this bud's for you. :toast: have another.. :toast:
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NorCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Oh yeah,
DU is the best discussion board out there. Why would you post anywhere else? :D
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. berkley..
I often post in AOL's politics from the right.I am pitifully outnumbered and often insulted,but I continue on spewing Facts I garner from this "Democratic Underground".From time to time I have successfully helped 1 goper find the truth.If I can open the eyes of the blind hey,makes me happy and they could help taking back our country.Its not the Dems who block us,its those damn gopers...So I thanked John Doe for linking me to those stories..i can now pass along those sites to unbelievers...that simple
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ruperupe Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. hello and thank you
hello everybody on du!

thanks john doe II for this. VERY interesting.
but i've no clue why all this turns are happening.
should be easier to analyse explosives, shouldn't it?
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Heck yeah
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 06:51 PM by marekjed
Especially if you claim to have compared them with traces at the home of one of the perps and found a match.

On edit: and oh, didn't they say they found a van at Luton FILLED with the same kind of explosives that were used for the bombing? So it's not just traces, but a sizeable quantity of the actual material used. Two weeks later, tbey still don't know what it is? Color me suprised.
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Indeed
They found the "bomb factory" and the van filled with explosives on July 12. It should have made their analysis much much eaiser.
And DemInDistress that's for you
:toast: :toast: :toast:
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. welcome to DU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:toast: :toast: :toast:
:party: :party: :party:
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ruperupe Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Thanks, Spooked911
:toast: :toast:
and
:party: !

thanks a lot for the warm welcome!
i'll check out if i find any example how long it normally takes to analyse explosives.
there are not many threads on london here. is there any other section specialized in london?
sorry, i'm new.
thanks!
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ruperupe Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Portable explosive identification system
"GE Ion Track, a leading provider of explosives and narcotics detection and identification equipment to law enforcement, military and security professionals, recently introduced StreetLab - a portable explosives and narcotics identification system that offers an entirely new solution to the problem of analysing unknown seized substances in the field.
While GE Ion Track's EntryScan3, Itemiser3 and VaporTracer2 are trace detection systems for analysing invisible particles and vapors, StreetLab is a bulk identification system for identifying visible powders, pills and liquids.
Utilising Raman spectroscopy - a technology already widely accepted in the forensic community - StreetLab identifies substances based on their molecular structure. Raman spectroscopy permits samples to be analysed non-destructively and can identify a wide range of substances from narcotics to solvents to liquid explosives. Unlike chemical tests, results are clear, repeatable and completed in a single operation.
Equipped with a near-infrared laser, StreetLab analyses frequency shifts in the light scattered off a sample to recognise the 'spectral fingerprint' of a substance, even if it is dissolved in water or other liquids. StreetLab can also analyse samples through transparent glass and plastic containers, thereby eliminating the need to remove packaging prior to analysis."
http://securitysa.com/news.asp?pklNewsID=12022&pklIssue...

i'm not expert but this doesn't sound like an analysis would require several weeks.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Good find, and I agree. They are fudgin on the composition of the
explosives, IMO.
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Thanks a lot for the info!
:toast:
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. There is no special section on London-- but a lot of the London stuff
is discussed in the September 11 section.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. Hi ruperupe!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. Sounds of 911?
nt
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bassman79 Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'll take a wild guess...
Here's my theory on why so many contradictory explanations on the type of explosives used:

It WAS military explosives with timers as first reported. But that didn't fit the suicide bomber profile the gov't wanted to blame. In fact the explosives were planted and detonated by MI5 on behalf of the Anglo-American banking establishment which wants to use the threat of terrorism to convince the public to relinquish their civil liberties.

Just a gander...
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Syncronaut Seven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Naw... People just aren't capable of that level of evil.
Obfuscation is only necessary when there's something to hide.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. and why would they change the timeline?
Original timeline (as reported 7/7):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4659331.stm

0851 Seven people die in a blast on a train 100 yards from Liverpool Street station
0856 21 people die in a blast on a train between Russell Square and King's Cross stations
0917 Five people die in blast on a train at Edgware Road station
0947 An unknown number die in a blast on a bus at Tavistock Place.

Timeline 24 hours later:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050709/ap...

By PAISLEY DODDS, Associated Press Writer
Sat Jul 9, 6:42 PM ET



LONDON - Police radically revised the timing of the deadly blasts that tore through the London Underground, saying Saturday that the bombs were detonated just seconds apart not 26 minutes as first reported. The explosions were so intense that none of the 49 known dead has yet been identified.
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DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
9. What happened to the two unexploded bomb??
or is that another false lead?

I have a feeling that false information is being fed to some media outlets -- just to confuse the citizens.

Thanks for keeping on top of this story . . .
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
12. Great post! I was thinking the same thing myself! Why is it so hard
for them to figure this stuff out?
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
16. It Doesn't Take That Much Time
The issue here, i think, is either:

1) The explosives for all devices weren't identical, because they were only able to obtain so much of a few different HX materials. So, the analyses are not confirmatory of one another.

2) The explosive were HX compounds, but were homemade. It's really not that hard to run a small reaction system to make nitrated organics. Most MS Chemists could do it, even if they've never taken a nitro-organic class. As a result, the purity is not terribly high, just enough to be fully detonatable. The residue of the compounds would then not be highly specific on NMR or Mass Spec and would require significantly more interpretation than expected.
The Professor
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Tuesday_Morning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
19. Question...
Why would they buy expensive perfume? Aren't there less expensive forms of alcohol?
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Yes, I think so
:rofl:

I have some ideas....
:toast:
:beer:
:party:

and it wouldn't raise as much suspicion as buying perfume for 900 ...
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John Doe II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
23. And yet within 24 hours
they knew this:
The bombs used in London's terrorist attacks held less than 10 pounds of explosives, police said Friday (...)
''Initially, the forensic investigation suggests that each device used had less than 10 pounds of high explosives,'' Hayman said. The weight of explosives was smaller than recent bombs detonated in the Middle East.

http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=...

So, within 24 hours they know the amount of explosives that have been used and can even compare them to other bombs and yet after two weeks they have not the slightest clue what the bombs were made of (so in fact the explosives that were conveniently left behind in the van might have been made by something totally different and therefore not proving that the three driving in the car are in fact the culprits) ......
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