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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:08 AM
Original message
Now we know the true consequences of "going easy" on Iran Contra
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 09:10 AM by SoCalDem
Had the Dems (who DID control both houses of congress) pressed harder, and not contented themselves with the idea that GHWB (the wimp) would be easygoing, and inconsequential...well things would be very different now.,

Had Reagan/Bush gotten their just desserts for Iran Contra, and all the dirt been exposed, they would have left office, fully disgraced..GHWB probably would not have even gotten elected..Carter would be held in higher esteem...and There's no way in HELL that *² would have gotten appointed to the white house

The appointments to the SCOTUS that were made by GHWB would have been made by a democrat..Kennedy..Souter..Thomas would not be on the bench, and we would not be facing a right wing court for the foreseeable future.

The democratic party has always hated "piling on", and has been ready to "forgive and forget".

Look at all the key players in this administration.. Almost all of them have their roots in the Iran Contra Days, Grenada, Panama, and many other republican schemes.

We do ourselves and the country a great disservice when we let the "bad guys" off with a slap on the wrist.

republicans have no shame.. they wear their crimes like badges of honor..and like the energizer bunnies, they just keep on coming back..

This is why we cannot let Rove off the hook, and strong language and actions are necessary..

The only thing that republicans DO understand is PUBLIC HUMILIATION, and jail terms.


If you DO wrong, you need to be punished..not just turned out of office to go lick your wounds until next time :grr:
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. Most of Bush's cronies are Nixon-era thugs or Reaganite criminals
And if the thugs and criminals aren't in the administration, they are cheering for it on TV and radio.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. They got smacked just enough to be angry and vindictive
and now with power, they are just plain evil..we are paying for the oversight of that congress all those years ago..
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. "never wound a king"
You either kill the king or leave them alone.

A wounded king is just a powerful vindictive enemy
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. If you attack the king, you must kill the king
We always settle for a spanking, and send them to bed with no supper :(
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
2. Amen, SoCalDem.
Amen. George Herbert Herbert issues a stack of pardons to cover up his Iran-Contra crimes, and the Dems nobly look the other way to get Clinton's presidency off on a high note. Yeah, like THAT worked.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. AND there would be no worship at the altar of St. Ronnie of Reagan
There WOULD be a flurry of books analyzing the corrupt Reagan regime, and who klnows.. the policies that were set into motion during those 12 years might have lessened the fury that's been unleashed as "terrah"..

The social structure of the US would certainly be different..We would probably have fuel efficient cars, and healthcare for all by now..

Instead we have polluted pipe dreams flushed down a rusty ole republican sewer pipe :(
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. I agree 100%
Give them their due process and pass laws that would ban them forever from government service or working for any company that deals with the government.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I think it started with Gerald Ford going easy on Nixon and his crew
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 09:17 AM by formercia
Had he done his duty, there might have not been any one to train the likes of Rove.
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evilkumquat Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. But... But...
Ford was a "Profiles in Courage" winner from the Kennedy organization!

He... he showed political strength by pardoning his former master because... because the country was so divided that by throwing Nixon in jail it would further harm... harm the country... and it just RUINED Ford's chances of a further political career because... because...

JESUS CHRIST!

WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT!

Ford was a boot-licking asshole who returned the favor of his position in the most craven, subservient manner possible.

When he was awarded the PiC, I lost all respect for that organization's "honor".

Evil Kumquat
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
7. And Kerry voted to confirm Negroponte
But his loyalist STILL call up the Iran Conta investigation and Kerry's past anti-war stand(which he now seems embarrassed about and dismisses as a young man's foolishness)as evidence of present resolve.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. And again you turn a perfectly nice thread into an
anti-Kerry rant. This is done by pretzelizing the discussion so that the guy who did the most to expose the Iran-Contra thugs gets blamed for it. Sigh. It is a neat trick a contortionist would be proud of. You should sign up for Cirque d'soleil.

Ridiculous and silly. Again, it would be nice to have some documentation and links to go along with the content-free comments. I would like something, anything, that says who did more to expose these guys. A link perhaps?
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. because, Kerry diehards refuse to let the rain fall
on the idols head.

Kerry voted to confirm Negroponte is a obvious place to start.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. Rain, snow, sleet or hail
what the hell let it fall. It's undue criticism that isn't backed up that I have a problem with. I have had problems with Kerry's votes in that past. (Hell, I had problems with a vote taken yesterday.) So what? There are NO perfect candidates. Never were and never will be. Overall I think he's doing a good job. (And I have documentation and articles and references I can cite from publicly available sources on the web. And you?)
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second edition Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. I agree with you! Undue criticism all the time not backed by facts! n/t
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. And then the right criticisms are ignored
Everyone (present posters included, sigh!) should be subject to bullshit tests from time to time. Publicly elected officials should be subject to them a lot more. When it's all criticism all the time and especially without any good documentation, then how do you know when it's the good stuff and when it's just carping and whining?

I dislike knee-jerk reactions to anyone. It is content-free. If I proclaim undying love for someone who is a public official (hmmmm, that sounds odd) I should back it up. If I offer all criticism all the time, then I should back it up. And be ready when the BS meters come out.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #27
37. Did it ever occur to you that "no perfect" candidate
could be used to defend and excuse Bush?

It is an abstract, arbitrary notion held up by apologists. One could argue those who protested slavery or promoted and organized unions or fought for human rights are purists. Politicians generally follow trends, good politicians sense the pulse, great politicians are above the curve. What you are demanding is that we settle for mediocrity and accept politicians who use the Right's framework and manufactured consensus rather than define who we are and what we stand for to take to the voters.

You call that being a purist.
You know what the reality is Taytay, you and I listened to those hearings and we know how terribly wrongheaded Democratic support of the Iraq invasion is. Sooner or later it can't be avoided and who will ask the last man to die for a mistake?
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #37
46. No, I wasn't arguing that
I was arguing that I like 90% of what was said on Iraq by Kerry. (I disagree on the statement about setting a date for withdrawal. He won't go for it, I'm for it.)

The problems in Iraq are huge, as we heard in that hearing. But that very testimony did not point to an absolutist or purist solution either. The Iraqis were used to a severe top-down system where everything came out of Baghdad. They are not stepping up to take charge of their own transition to (Democracy? less chaos? What the hell is the mission over there anyway?) McAfferty (I think) said that the training of Iraqis to take over their own security is going badly and he can't see the Iraqi security forces taking over from the Americans for five years. (Shit, this country will NOT put up with five years. Not going to happen. Not unless the Rethugs want the destroy their party.)

Iraq is a quagmire. I like some of Kerry's suggestions about it. Yet, I fear sometimes that nothing will work and that (more) massive death of the innocent is inevitable. The problem with a quagmire is that it is easy to get into, but hard to get out of. I dare say that, despite our differences of opinion of what needs to happen next, a primary concern is stopping the deaths over there. The hearings on Iraq were inconclusive about how to accomplish that goal.

What did you see?
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #46
49.  sorry, TayTay
but this shit about training Iraqis to be US proxies to turn on their own is repellent. Did you know that Iraqi doctors walked out on strike to protest the abuse of IRAQI soldiers on civilians? What we want is to impose another police state in Iraq to control through terror--just like Saddam, but with a government--(Chalabi as oil minister--that's all that really matters)that does US bidding.

You address the discussion within the framework of the Invasion and occupation of Iraq as legitimate--and so do complicit Democrats. That is fundamentally wrong and there can be no discussion about resolving the situation as long as that is the framework.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. The invasion was illegal
I presume that the whole discussion about DSM is about proving that.

That is also a legalistic argument. If we win that in the US tht's great, but what does it do for the Iraqi people.

How do we get out (which I think will happen withing two years) and leave behind a stable place where the deaths are less? Now, for actual people who won't care about the legal arguments here? What the hell do we do. Are we, in training Iraqi troops, training insurgents and giving skills to use against us and their own people? What happens if we pull out sooner? It now looks like the Shi'ites have, naturally enough. aligned with Iran. What the hell does that mean for Iraq and the withdrawal of US troops and the future of the people of Iraq.

This is a quagmire. We need to resolve the legal issues and take care of business in punishing those who lied to get us into a war. (We can agree on this up to the 95th degree I bet.) But we are in Iraq. What the hell do we do to stabilize it and get out? (Can we even talk about stabilization? Is that even possible now?)

We can't stay because we generate opposition and endanger the lives of the Iraqis with our presence as well as inspire outsiders to come in and fight us. We can't just leave because it jeopardizes Iraqi lives. (Even al Sistani said he wants the US there for a little while longer.) In all honesty, there is no good solution. I suspect that the *ies, who have no morals or ethics, will one day declare victory and leave. Then use covert ops to destablize whatever takes our place.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #49
86. BRAVO!
Excellent! Very true, very apt, very well-said!

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #27
85. Undue criticism?
Kerry knew from his own I/C investigations that Negroponte was a CRIMINAL.

That Kerry voted for him, and some point it out, is not "undue criticism". It's a reasonable fucking question: WHY? HOW?

No one's ever answered that. Will you or someone else finally give a satisfactory answer to this question, or will it again be ignored and shunted to the side by attacking the one who brings it up?

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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
26. I like John Kerry but
there is an old russian saying that goes:

Worry not about a man who cries for social justice.
Worry not about a man who lives in a big house.
Worry about a man who lives in a big house and cries for social justice.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. And a man with good hair rarely owns a barbershop
You ever notice that a lot of people who own barbershops are bald? Why is that anyway? Maybe it's a case of being able to do unto others but not unto yourself.

But I digress.
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second edition Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. Funny! n/t
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second edition Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. So, you saying only those with nothing can passionately strive
for social justice? I disagree, throughout our history men with money and power have been the driving force behind change. For example,Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams and more recently, Roosevelt and Kennedy.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #34
43. I count five votes.
but point well taken.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
84. Thank you for reminding us of this fact.
I have never, ever received a satisfactory answer to the question of why Kerry voted for him.

Knowing what he knew, I can't fathom HOW he could, either.

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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
8. Good point n/t
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
11. Lee Hamilton
He diffused that investigation, just like he did 9/11. When the Bush Family needs a Democrat to do a good whitewash, they call a real artist.

I totally agree....we are paying for our sins of forgiveness. I think we've learned the lesson if we can ever get our govwernment back again...
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. Totally agree about Hamilton, but don't forget Clinton either
Back in 92-93, there were a lot of us who were hoping we could get to the bottom of the assorted Reagan/Bush coverups (Iran/Contra, BCCI, Contra drug smuggling, the S&Ls, "Iraqgate", etc.), but in the words of a Clinton aide, pursuing those "just wasn't on our radar screen".

Hell, it took a lawsuit AGAINST the Clinton WH to have Reagan/Bush-era e-mails treated as documents which had to be preserved, rather than allowing them to be deleted wholesale (fortunately, that case was won and the e-mails were preserved).

And what thanks did he get for this? Wall-to-wall 24/7 horseshit attacks and a multimillion-dollar push to even the score for Nixon, that's what.

There can't be any such luxury next time. They have to be made to pay or else they'll just do it again (only moreso) whenever they have the chance.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. I've oftened wondered why Clinton didn't seize the initiative on this.
When he had the Senate/House majorities in '92. Was there something or someone holding him back? I wonder if, in retrospect, he regrets not pushing on this? He, obviously, got paid back royally for his lack of political will. Being an "outsider" helped to get him elected...but it hamstrung him on dealing with the ebtrenched, Republican bureaucracy that permeated all facets of the government.

Sad that the Party didn't give him the support and discipline Bush enjoys today....
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #32
39. "Outsider" is one reason, also the makeup of his team...
Remember how they were all characterized in the mold of George Stephanopolous? A bunch of young, eager-beaver yuppies who had their own ideas, and didnt have (or thought they didn't have) an axe to grind, and basically wanted to put that sort of "unpleasantness" behind them. The image Bushco played on when they claimed "The adults are back in charge"?

Not to mention that with plenty of the scandals, there were plenty of Democratic fingerprints to go around, so pursuoing the scandals would necessitate attacking some of his own party.

It added up to a tactically-easy but strategiaccly-disaterous course of letting all that stuff swirl down the memory hole where, with a few exceptions, it was consigned to ConspiracyTheoryLand.

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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. I think the Bush "assassination attempt" in Kuwait was a good example.
Clinton had to rely on the Bush CIA/FBI to present the evidence on the details that pointed to Saddam. The Republicans, of course, demanded immediate retaliation and the press pushed on this as well. The back story was, Is BC tough enough to defend America? Was it really the Iraqi's who engineered it? Some people, like Seymour Hersch, had doubts about the evidence.

But who was Clinton going to turn to get an objective, unbiased evaluation? And, regardless of the truth, could he, an the inexperienced outsider, remain nuetral on this event? I think he looked at the evidence, calculated the political spin, and decided the safe play was retaliation. Bombs away.

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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
66. Didn't the Bush pardons kill a lot of the investigation, too?
I'm a bit naive about the era, as back then I tended to follow the so-called "mainstream" news almost exclusively... and, having gotten out of college in '89, I was more concerned with chasing anything reasonably attractive & female than I was in following politics at 22 years old.

But, didn't Poppy Bush's pardons of some Iran-Contra figures "to put it all behind us" effectively kill a lot of the investigation?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. Yes, but, Clinton could have allowed BCCI to be re-opened by allocating
the dollars necessary to continue further investigation. Kerry had been keeping an office open for the case on his own when Bush1 wouldn't allow any more dollars in the budget. (And that was when Kerry didn't have much wealth.)
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. thanks
it's been a very educational thread for me.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
12. The real problem with these people is that they are hell bent on going
around the structure of the country by operating their own secret government because they know how difficult it is to do what they want to do within the structure. Iran-Contra was a secret sub-government. They created their own international policies in blatant disregard of legislation.

I don't see these people as rising up in blips. I see a steady river of determination conducted with malice of intent. They will not stop. They tutor youth in their idealism. They have no obstructions when we are sleeping and turning them off.

They need the smoke of a democracy for their nazism and fascism. They need our tax dollars so that they can get them through the congress as well as steal them.

They could not sway enough people with smoke so they outright stole votes.

Soon, they could stop the pretending.

They must be cut off - I don't know if jail would have helped, but I agree that our Congressional leaders are very, very weak.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
15. Nominated.
If a person has an infection, and is prescribed 14 days worth of antibiotics, they need to take the full dose. If they stop when they begin to feel better, say at the 8th day, that infection will mutate and come back even stronger.

The neocons are are mutant infection that threatens the USA. We made a mistake in stopping the healing process, actually in both Watergate and Iran-Contra.

The OP is the single most important concept that we need to hold to in dealing with the mutants.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. nominated.. this is something I've been upset about
ever since I watched/listened to the Iran/Contra hearings (whitewash)
Most of the Dems were lobbing soft balls and I still hold them accountable for our current situation.

Now what we have in place is even more dangerous and far reaching than the original "enterprise". The Iran/Contra coverup may have been the true nail in the coffin for this country.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. and what they did to Jimmy Carter..THAT really pisses me off
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 09:58 AM by SoCalDem
and then the SAME freaks (James baker et al) went to Israel and sank the Barak/Arafat almost-deal as Clinton was leaving office..and we all know how well that has turned out.. :eyes:

We need to start shouting this stuff from the rooftops..WHEN IT HAPPENS.. we "play nice" and continue to say stupid things like "My esteemed colleague across the aisle" or "my friend and colleague"..Those guys would slit their "friends'"throats on the senate floor if those damned c-span cameras ever went "dead".

Life is too dangerous these days for all the pussyfooting.. It's time to say the truth..and say it LOUD..and KEEP saying it.. Even if no one listens. at least we would be on record and eventually proven correct..
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. as if there is a correlation between being a good or "nice"
person and enabling and/or ignoring high crimes in the government.

It should be simple, a "good" leader demands the truth and pursues justice.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #33
50. Most of the democrats
were too afraid to stand up and advocate for justice. Kerry was an exception, we should remember, and he certainly became a target in the years since. However, the majority of the democrats in the House and Senate were cowards. They betrayed the Constitution, and the citizens of this country. We need to make it clear that we will not accept half-measures today.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
17. Clinton should never have shut down BCCI. 9-11 wouldn't have happened
if all the players in BCCI had been exposed and their agenda to finance and agitate terrorism as a prelude to selling arms and proliferating WMDs all over the world.

Does anyone think Poppy and his arms dealing buddies ever really got out of the business? Bush buddy Menem was caught a few years back dealing arms to Iran.

They control more than ever now, and I'll bet Plame got too close to who really runs the proliferation operations.
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barbaraann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Remember the Marc Rich pardon?
And remember that Scooter Libby was one of his lawyers?

http://www.spitfirelist.com/f277.html
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Burried News Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
56.  Google - Marc Rich Mossad agent
Don't wish to put thread at risk.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. I naively defended that pardon back then. Then I revisited BCCI and the
role he played in it.

I had been reading up on Bush and James Bath part in BCCI earlier during the 2000 campaign, and hadn't gotten to Marc Rich and Scooter Libby's roles at the time.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. And that was related to 'going easy' on Watergate conspirators...
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 03:25 PM by htuttle
...so that the country could 'get past it'.

Which was probably related to 'going easy' on the Kennedy assassination investigation, so the country could 'move on'.

And THAT was ultimately related to 'going easy' on pre-Pearl Harbor Nazi collaborators (like the Bund, Brown Bros Harriman, et al), so the country could 'pull together'.

And so on...

Maybe forgiving evil bastards for their dirty deeds isn't as great as it's made out to be.

on edit:
NOTE: I meant to respond to the original post. Please pardon the apparent discontinuity.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. heh...but it IS all related.
So, your reply fits any post.

;)))))
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Burried News Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
55. Bullseye
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
18. Completely agree with you
But its also worth noting that the Democratic party had power for so long that it corrupted them as easily as it corrupts Republicans. With power came the arrogance which made them easy prey for Newt Gingrich. Its the nature of people who seek power, their success will mean their corruption.

I remember Iran COntra very well. I remember my anger when all the felons were pardoned. I more vividly remember my outrage when those felons, rather than slink off into obscurity were hired back into the government. Poindexter, Abrams, Negroponte. They're all a fucking recurring nightmare.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Their success was their downfall..
Dems had been in control for so long, they thought it would never end.and were too slow to see the propaganda machine that republicans were assembling..
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
19. The American people are as much to blame as the politicians
I was young when Reagan was elected, and I cried when I woke up and saw the TV screen with his smarmy face on there. I knew he had pulled a fast one with the hostages and f*cked over Carter in the process, whom I considered then and still consider to be a good man.

But most of all I blamed the American voters for their confounding stupidity in electing a two-faced actor to the White House.

Looking back, my tears were prescient. I consider Reagan's election to be the beginning of the downfall of the greatness of America. (Even though we've always had to live with the rotten things we do as a country, there was greatness to balance it. Not anymore, not since Reagan, and probably never again.)

And don't even get me started on the Willie Horton tactics of the GHWB campaign. I thought we were scraping the bottom of the barrel then. Ha! Little did I know.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
64. Add me to the list. I should have known better and supported Kerry on BCCI
BACK THEN when it really mattered. Instead, I fell for Clinton's reasoning to get past BCCI for the good of the global economy.

Economic problems are cyclical and temporary. The stranglehold of the fascist BFEE may be here for generations.
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central scrutinizer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
25. I've been saying the same thing for years
nfm
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
29. I blame Tip O'Neal..
... and the other Dems who felt that keeping the peace in Congress was more important than bringing Iran-Contra criminals to justice.

Tip didn't want another Watergate.... felt it would hurt the country too much.

Instead we got (mis)administrations that may well destroy our country.

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second edition Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
30. Kerry was investigating aggressively,but was FORCED to back off.! n/t
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SlowDownFast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
38. Amen. No more slaps on the wrist
for crimes against country and humanity.

I think by nature the left is more forgiving, however history clearly shows that these neo-con criminals just keep coming back with their attempts to hijack America and rob it blind.

When (not IF) the democrats take back congress in '06, we will need to keep the pressure on our reps to go after these criminals -political and corporate. We need to make sure that democratic candidates have an understanding that there is no longer any forgiveness for those who commit war crimes and rape and rob our country.

We must never forget what these traitors have done to America and to the world....
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
69. we need to MAKE the democrats in office LISTEN AND RESPOND to us
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
40. Apparently crime does pay, if you've got the right connections
The S&L scandal comes to mind. The government-corporate crime family keeps stealing and getting away with it, so they grow bolder and more numerous. It's gone from the crooks sneaking a few tv sets out the back to throwing open the front doors and pulling up the trucks.

I think half of it gets hidden behind "national security."
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
41. the same thing happened with the coup against FDR
When the industrialists nearly pulled off a military coup against FDR, FDR preferred that it be smoothed over rather than root out the traitors. Think of it. They got away with it. Only the fact that General Smedley Butler ratted them out stopped the coup. And then it was smoothed over.

Consider the partial list of their anti-American and anti-Constitution actions.

The coup attempt against FDR
McCarthyism
The botching of the Paris Peace talks
Watergate
Iran Contra
The coup attempt against Bill Clinton
Richard Perle's interference in the Middle East Accord before the 2000 election
The appointment of Bush by Supreme Court
And all the attacks on the Constitution under Bush

That's all I can remember at this early hour. They are unable to win at the ballot box, and so they impose their ideology through thuggery.



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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. I'd insert a few assassinations in your list.
JFK, for example. True, we do not know the truth of the matter, but that is part of the problem, isn't it? Why don't we?

When are we going to learn that you can not compromise with fascists. As Michael Parenti puts it, "The elite only want one thing and that's EVERYTHING." These people think they are above the law -- and why shouldn't they? They get away with high crimes, treason and murder on a regular basis and have been for generations.
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ikri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
44. Modern Republicans
And Modern Democrats are very different creatures.

If a democrat catches a republican up to no good and then says to the rest of the world that they need to "forgive and forget" the republican doesn't see it as kindness or forgiveness. They don't have political colleagues, they have opponents.

They see it as weakness.

They would never let up on an opponent, even if the opponent thought of them as a friend and colleague.

Republicans have an easy mantra they can use if anyone investigates them, they just scream "partisan politics" and the democrats back down. Democrats need to learn a new mantra - "Law Enforcement".
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
45. You nailed it, SoCalDem! The Democrats on that committee, especially
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 11:25 AM by Peace Patriot
Hamilton and Inouye, oozed military-corporate complex corruption and insider-ness. It was a huge, huge mistake not to take those criminals down, and Reagan with them. I never bought his fuddiness. He was a McCarthyite, and a total snake in the grass, conspiring against his fellow actors and writers. He also destroyed California's free university education with tuition and fees--and, under his regime, they re-wrote the U.S. tax code to favor the rich. There is no end of harm that he did--Iran-Contra being the worst.

But it's useless to feel regret--although not useless to learn lessons. One of them is Democratic Party corruption, which we have got, in spades, on electronic voting. The Dems are a big obstacle to election reform. The next time a Dem politician gives you a blank stare on Bushite companies owning and controlling the vote tabulation with secret, proprietary programming codes, know why.

See Amaryllis' post on electronic voting company lobbying--it will burn your eyeballs! (Hogfest sponsored by Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia at the Beverly Hilton this August, where local election officials will be wined, dined and given "graduation awards," after a week of fund and sun.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Here's my mantra on it:

The answer to the stink in Washington DC is restoring our right to vote, by throwing Bushite electronic voting machine companies--Diebold, ES&S and brethren--out of the election business NOW--or, at the least, achieving some measure of election transparency with paper ballot backups, strict auditing, and no secret, proprietary programming code owned and controlled by major Bush donors and campaign chairs! The only place where we can get this done is in state/local jurisdictions, where the authority over election systems still resides, and where ordinary people still have some say. The bipartisan corruption in the electronic voting business at the state/local level is daunting, but it is nothing compared to the bipartisan corruption in Washington DC, and it is local and therefore much more fixable. See the DU Forum "2004 Election Results and Discussion" for information and action ideas:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

(One of the worst, by the way, is Connie McCormack, Dem head of Los Angeles elections--a featured speaker at the Bev Hilton. She has got to go!)

--------

Edit: I was going to correct my typo, "a week of fund and sun" (in the para on Amaryllis' post) but, on second thought, I think I'll let it stand. Fund and sun, indeed.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
48. Oh, boy O' do I agree with your post.
They should never have been flaky on full accountability. The consequences are NO accountability. I seriously hope they have learned from their mistakes.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. They "may" have learned, but WE will suffer
:(

Look at how ,any people will live out the rest of their days in unnecessary poverty and illness :(
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. We have just begun to witness the full weight of the consequences,...
,...in my belief. It will take some time to recover IF the rule of law and fundamental ethics are enforced. We simply can not afford to tolerate abuse of power and any crimes committed as a result of that abuse.

We impose ZERO TOLERANCE on our children. Surely, the same standard we impose on kids should be stringently applied to the adults in charge of this country.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #52
61. Sad, but many Dem lawmakers are just beginning to realize the consequences
of their civil attitudes back then. Then they thought Republicans were just advocating for conservative viewpoints, now they can see the extent of their thuggery and see they are the forces moving the fascist agenda around the globe.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #61
74. Yeah. I am thankful, though, for increased number of strong and,...
,...courageous advocates. Sucks it takes so many crises to get people focused on the important stuff. I guess it's human nature to go the path of least resistence until that path leads to painful consequences.
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
54. Aww Yeah!
Purge, to say the least.

Naturally, it will be up to We, The People to make it happen.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
57. Those who allowed the Iran-Contra traitors to get away with their crimes
are just as guilty as those who perpetuated the act.

The criminal notion that it's somehow better for the nation to just let acts of corruption by government, or individuals in government, drop (in the "interest of healing" *coughspewchoke*) is a betrayal of all Americans.

Selection 2000 showed just how easy it had gotten to allow corruption to slide.




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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. I was one of those lulled into agreeing with Clinton at the time to "save"
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 02:25 PM by blm
the world economy from collapse if the REAL story on BCCI came out.

Since 9-11, I realized that the world would have been better off if the economy took a hit and struggled for a few years. At least the entire Bush gang and their cronies AROUND THE WORLD would have been exposed and named as the funders of terrorism and global unrest.

They could have been dealt with LONG before a 9-11 could be planned.

Now, it's going to be extremely difficult and will take at least a generation to recover from the global damage done by BushInc.

I should have been more faithful to Kerry's warnings back then and committed myself to spreading the truth. He was right and Clinton was wrong. I will not make that mistake ever again. 9-11 should never have happened.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Our economy is still flailing due to that mistaken judgment.
Between 9/11 and the BushCo/neoCON regime, our economy is hurting no matter how many on Wall Street deny it.

I hope we don't become distracted, again. This political mafia must be taken down, once and for all.
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
58. yep, uh huh, you're sooooo right
I've been angry for two decades over that mess.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #58
63.  "Sins of forgiveness"
I don't believe that is correct. It was not about forgiveness at all. It was about maintaining a stable power structure. Amerika is a Plutocracy. People in Govt. are part of a club of powwer propped up by Corporate Amerika. Iran/Contra was funded by the Christian Right who were ant-Communist Zealots. When Congress wouldn't fund RW Terrorism against Nicarqua Reagon's thugs got private funding and sold missles to Iran, a nation on the USA terrorist nation list, to fund the terror on Central America to halt Socialism.

Maybe Reagon didn't know the details of the various Black Ops but Bush1 certainly did, being the former CIA Head and sponsor of Noriega. Iran/Contra is a long detailed story and would take many pages to explore. I have read two books about it.

It does tie in to the present Bush Junta. The Amerikan people have been duped once again. Dems are, for the most part, weak but also part of the Plutocracy and adhere to the marching orders. To expect Dems to actually bring down an Amerikan Regime is a pipedream. Nixon was brought down by Republicans. The power structure has changed since then. The NeonCons and TheoCrats have taken over and Paleo-Conservs have been nuetered.Amerika is shifting from Plutocracy to Fascism.

More later...
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
67. In other words--never give a viper an even break!
I could not agree more with the OP. I have no doubt that we'll win somehow--the Republicans have once again overreached and allowed their hubris to get the better of them. What I'm afraid of is how the Democrats will react when they do go down. I am more afraid of a premature "healing" (i.e. whitewash) than anything else in the world. I live in terror of the words "Let the healing begin!" coming from the Democrats. "Healing" in this case, just like with Iran-Contra, would mean to leave the seeds of the next fascist coup in place to sprout and grow again.

Recommended.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
71. I've been saying for 20 years, four of them here
It does little good, unfortunately.

A lot of people really don't get it, they fall for the gee-golly-whiz let's worry about today and let's be nice/look good rhetoric of the leading Democrats, which has caused disaster after disaster.

If there had been a full press on the Iran Contra crimes... of which not even a fraction was exposed.

If Clinton had seen fit to use his position to expose the dirt on the Bushes...

If he had struck back, hard, by exposing their real crimes when he was hit with trivialities a la Whitewater & Monica...

Today, if the anthraxed Democrats had shown more spine about exposing that, 9/11, Wellstone...

If they had made an issue of e-voting and fraud potentials a year in advance of the Nov. 2004 election...

Instead, we see the likes of John Kerry (yes), Lee Hamilton, Inouye and Lieberman collaborating, covering up, distracting, adjourning to "executive session."

No wonder fully informed students of history find it so hard to take the Democrats seriously as anything other than a faux-opposition with the function not of opposing but of legitimating the Republicans.

Over and over, the DLC-style bogus-opposition line has triumphed. For 20 years, since the 1984 election, Democrats have pulled their punches and gone down.

Each time, they have lost twice over: by losing the election, and by pursuing a faux-centrist strategy (nothing centrist about making compromises on truth and justice) that legitimates the Republicans and allows them to contemplate ever greater crimes.

Each time, the hypocrites behind this losing strategy have then turned around and blamed it on some fictional "left" influence.

Thank you.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. John Kerry UNCOVERED the IranContra crimes and pressed the investigations
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 05:06 PM by blm
for a year before the rest of the Senate allowed the case to be heard.

He was rewarded by being passed over for the Senate panel because Poppy Bush thought he was too partisan and over-zealous to be on the investigating committee.

He agreed ONLY if he was allowed to make an official further investigation of the banking discrepancies he found during his IranContra investigation, which became the BCCI scandal.

You do NOT understand IranContra or BCCI if you can dare spin Kerry into the bad guy.

You didn't even MENTION that it was Clinton who refused to allow BCCI to re-open and that it was many Democrats who opposed Kerry's investigation as well as ALL of the DC powerstructure who worked against him to keep the truth about BCCI from being heard. Kerry pressed on for FIVE YEARS with barely any assist from any other lawmaker.

And you blame HIM? That's crazy...absurd...and foolish.

Read these questions that Kerry said still remained back in 1992, and read them in light of Iraqgate, and 9-11.

Think what this world would look like today if this country and other lawmakers and the media stood behind his important efforts instead of mocking him for it and ignoring the sheer magnitude of his work.

Here is Kerry's list - FROM 1992 - of things which warrant further investigation:

>>>

There have been a number of matters which the Subcommittee has received some information on, but has not been able to investigate adequately, due such factors as lack of resources, lack of time, documents being withheld by foreign governments, and limited evidentiary sources or witnesses. Some of the main areas which deserve further investigation include:

1. The extent of BCCI's involvement in Pakistan's nuclear program. As set forth in the chapter on BCCI in foreign countries, there is good reason to conclude that BCCI did finance Pakistan's nuclear program through the BCCI Foundation in Pakistan, as well as through BCCI-Canada in the Parvez case. However, details on BCCI's involvement remain unavailable. Further investigation is needed to understand the extent to which BCCI and Pakistan were able to evade U.S. and international nuclear non-proliferation regimes to acquire nuclear technologies.

2. BCCI's manipulation of commodities and securities markets in Europe and Canada. The Subcommittee has received information that remains not fully substantiated that BCCI defrauded investors, as well as some major U.S. and European financial firms, through manipulating commodities and securities markets, especially in Canada, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg. This alleged fraud requires further investigation in those countries.

3. BCCI's activities in India, including its relationship with the business empire of the Hinduja family. The Subcommittee has not had access to BCCI records regarding India. The substantial lending by BCCI to the Indian industrialist family, the Hindujas, reported in press accounts, deserves further scrutiny, as do the press reports concerning alleged kick-backs and bribes to Indian officials.

4. BCCI's relationships with convicted Iraqi arms dealer Sarkis Soghanalian, Syrian drug trafficker, terrorist, and arms trafficker Monzer Al-Kassar, and other major arms dealers. Sarkenalian was a principal seller of arms to Iraq. Monzer Al- Kassar has been implicated in terrorist bombings in connection with terrorist organizations such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Other arms dealers, including some who provided machine guns and trained Medellin cartel death squads, also used BCCI. Tracing their assets through the bank would likely lead to important information concerning international terrorist and arms trafficker networks.

5. The use of BCCI by central figures in arms sales to Iran during the 1980's. The late Cyrus Hashemi, a key figure in allegations concerning an alleged deal involving the return of U.S. hostages from Iran in 1980, banked at BCCI London. His records have been withheld from disclosure to the Subcommittee by a British judge. Their release might aid in reaching judgments concerning Hashemi's activities in 1980, with the CIA under President Carter and allegedly with William Casey.

6. BCCI's activities with the Central Bank of Syria and with the Foreign Trade Mission of the Soviet Union in London. BCCI was used by both the Syrian and Soviet governments in the period in which each was involved in supporting activities hostile to the United States. Obtaining the records of those financial transactions would be critical to understanding what the Soviet Union under Brezhnev, Chernenko, and Andropov was doing in the West; and might document the nature and extent of Syria's support for international terrorism.

7. BCCI's involvement with foreign intelligence agencies. A British source has told the Bank of England and British
investigators that BCCI was used by numerous foreign intelligence agencies in the United Kingdom. The British intelligence service, the MI-5, has sealed documents from BCCI's records in the UK which could shed light on this allegation.

8. The financial dealings of BCCI directors with Charles Keating and several Keating affiliates and front-companies, including
the possibility that BCCI related entities may have laundered funds for Keating to move them outside the United States. The Subcommittee found numerous connections among Keating and BCCI-related persons and entities, such as BCCI director Alfred Hartman; CenTrust chief David Paul and CenTrust itself; Capcom front-man Lawrence Romrell; BCCI shipping affiliate, the Gokal group and the Gokal family; and possibly Ghaith Pharaon. The ties between BCCI and Keating's financial empire require further investigation.

9. BCCI's financing of commodities and other business dealings of international criminal financier Marc Rich. Marc Rich
remains the most important figure in the international commodities markets, and remains a fugitive from the United States following his indictment on securities fraud. BCCI lending to Rich in the 1980's amounted to tens of millions of dollars. Moreover, Rich's commodities firms were used by BCCI in connection with BCCI's involving in U.S. guarantee programs through the Department of Agriculture. The nature and extent of Rich's relationship with BCCI requires further investigation.

10. The nature, extent and meaning of the ownership of shares of other U.S. financial institutions by Middle Eastern political
figures. Political figures and members of the ruling family of various Middle Eastern countries have very substantial investments in the United States, in some cases, owning substantial shares of major U.S. banks. Given BCCI's routine use of nominees from the Middle East, and the pervasive practice of using nominees within the Middle East, further investigation may be warranted of Middle Eastern ownership of domestic U.S. financial institutions.

11. The nature, extent, and meaning of real estate and financial investments in the United States by major shareholders of BCCI. BCCI's shareholders and front-men have made substantial investments in real estate throughout the United States, owning major office buildings in such key cities as New York and Washington, D.C. Given BCCI's pervasiveness criminality, and the role of these shareholders and front-men in the BCCI affair, a complete review of their holdings in the United States is warranted.

12. BCCI's collusion in Savings & Loan fraud in the U.S. The Subcommittee found ties between BCCI and two failed Savings and Loan institutions, CenTrust, which BCCI came to have a controlling interest in, and Caprock Savings and Loan in Texas, and as noted above, the involvement of BCCI figures with Charles Keating and his business empire. In each case, BCCI's involvement cost the U. S. taxpayers money. A comprehensive review of BCCI's account holders in the U.S. and globally might well reveal additional such cases. In addition, the issue of whether David Paul and CenTrust's political relationships were used by Paul on behalf of BCCI merits further investigation.

13. The sale of BCCI affiliate Banque de Commerce et de Placements (BCP) in Geneva, to the Cukorova Group of Turkey, which owned an entity involved in the BNL Iraqi arms sales, among others. Given BNL's links to BCCI, and Cukorova Groups' involvement through its subsidiary, Entrade, with BNL in the sales to Iraq, the swift sale of BCP to Cukorova just weeks after BCCI's closure -- prior to due diligence being conducted -- raises questions as to whether a prior relationship existed between BCCI and Cukorova, and Cukorova's intentions in making the purchase. Within the past year, Cukorova also applied to purchase a New York bank. Cukorova's actions pertaining to BCP require further investigation in Switzerland by Swiss authorities, and by the Federal Reserve New York.

14. BCCI's role in China. As noted in the chapter on BCCI's activities in foreign countries, BCCI had extensive activity in China, and the Chinese government allegedly lost $500 million when BCCI closed, mostly from government accounts. While there have been allegations that bribes and pay-offs were involved, these allegations require further investigation and detail to determine what actually happened, and who was involved.

15. The relationship between Capcom and BCCI, between Capcom and the intelligence community, and between Capcom's shareholders and U.S. telecommunications industry figures. The Subcommittee was able to interview people and review documents concerning Capcom that no other investigators had to date interviewed or reviewed. Much more needs to be done to understand what Capcom was doing in the United States, the United Kingdom, Egypt, Oman, and the Middle East, including whether the firm was, as has been alleged but not proven, used by the intelligence community to move funds for intelligence operations; and whether any person involved with Capcom was seeking secretly to acquire interests in the U.S. telecommunications industry.

16. The relationship of important BCCI figures and important intelligence figures to the collapse of the Hong Kong Deposit and Guaranty Bank and Tetra Finance (HK) in 1983. The circumstances surrounding the collpase of these two Hong Kong banks; the Hong Kong banks' practices of using nominees, front-companies, and back-to-back financial transactions; the Hong Banks' directors having included several important BCCI figures, including Ghanim Al Mazrui, and a close associate of then CIA director William Casey; all raise the question of whether there was a relationship between these two institutions and BCCI-Hong Kong, and whether the two Hong Kong institutions were used for domestic or foreign intelligence operations.

17. BCCI's activities in Atlanta and its acquisition of the National Bank of Georgia through First American. Although the Justice Department indictments of Clark Clifford and Robert Altman cover portions of how BCCI acquired National Bank of Georgia, other important allegations regarding the possible involvement of political figures in Georgia in BCCI's activities there remain outside the indictment. These allegations, as well as the underlying facts regarding BCCI's activities in Georgia, require further investigation.

18. The relationship between BCCI and the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro. BCCI and the Atlanta Branch of BNL had an extensive relationship in the United States, with the Atlanta Branch of BNL having a substantial number of accounts in BCCI's Miami offices. BNL was, according to federal indictments, a significant financial conduit for weapons to Iraq. BCCI also made loans to Iraq, although of a substantially smaller nature. Given the criminality of both institutions, and their interlocking activities, further investigation of the relationship could produce further understanding of Saddam Hussein's international network for acquiring weapons, and how Iraq evaded governmental restrictions on such weapons acquisitions.

19. The alleged relationship between the late CIA director William Casey and BCCI. As set forth in the chapter on intelligence, numerous trails lead from BCCI to Casey, and from Casey to BCCI, and the investigation has been unable to follow any of them to the end to determine whether there was indeed a relationship, and if there was, its nature and extent. If any such relationship existed, it could have a significant impact on the findings and conclusions concerning the CIA and BCCI's role in U.S. foreign policy and intelligence operations during the Casey era. The investigation's work detailing the ties of BCCI to the intelligence community generally also remains far from complete, and much about these ties remains obscure and in need of further investigation.

20. Money laundering by other major international banks. Numerous BCCI officials told the Subcommittee that BCCI's money laundering was no different from activities they observed at other international banks, and provided the names of a number of prominent U.S. and European banks which they alleged engaged in money laundering. There is no question that BCCI's laundering of drug money, while pervading the institution, constituted a small component of the total money laundering taking place in international banking. Further investigation to determine which international banks are soliciting and handling drug money should be undertaken.

from: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/24appendi ...


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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. I am not "spinning him into a bad guy"
Very nice, a list from 1992. I was impressed with him back then as well.

Fact is, he accumulated all this dirt on the BFEE mob... to what end?

Please show me any such list from 2004, when he had the golden opportunity.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Clinton closed the case....try reading and stop blaming Kerry as if he
deserves the blame.

Kerry wrote a book about the funding of terrorism in 96. Did you read it...came out in 97?

He has the strongest record investigating and exposing government corruption of any lawmaker in modern history and yet you choose HIM to blame.

That's whacked.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. We already went through this last year
And even then, I don't recall your answering my question, which your post avoids.

In your posts last year, we were supposed to take on faith that Kerry once in office would show the vim of his old investigations in finally bringing the Bush mob's crimes to justice (an essential prerequisite to ever achieving meaningful change in the United States).

But here it is once again, the question in various forms:

What did Kerry do about all this when it counted most, in 2004?

Where is a list of his unanswered questions about criminal investigations from the election year -- when he had the platform?

When in 2004 did he point to his Iran-Contra, BCCI or CIA-Drugs investigations as an example of something he would want to pursue again once in office?

I don't want to hear about some book he wrote eight years ago.

Since this book, he's provided key support to the Bush regime at its most critical junctures, most notably by voting for the repeal of the Bill of Rights (aka "USA PATRIOT Act") and, in 2002, by approving the war of unprovoked agression against a helpless enemy, based on outrageous fairy tales that everyone with two brain cells and an Internet connection, including 23 senators, knew were naked lies (aka "Iraq War Resolution").

When did he question 9/11? The anthrax attacks on the Senate? The vote fraud and e-voting by which his victory was stolen from him?

I want to know what he did when it counted. Not in 1992. Not in 1997. In 2004.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. The point is that YOU singled him out as one of the cover up Dems. He IS
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 07:08 PM by blm
NOT and never WAS.

Kerry made references to BCCI and iranContra a few times during his campaign speeches and no media chose to mention it. No soundbite in it.

He also expected to WIN. He was aligned with Wilson, Rand and others in the intel community and they all expected a win which would open up alot of information that they all wanted.

You must not remember that one of the hallmarks reKerry is that he always felt the public deserved MORE documents and advocated for more to be declassified not less.

Kerry didn't have proof about the vote fraud or he would have gone after it. That's up to the DNC.

After Nov. Bush purged all those agents suspected of working with Kerry. Why would he do that if he and Kerry were in cahoots?

You think everything happening in a vacuum?

When Kerry didn't take office, they went another route...Kerry went to England in January to meet with his counterparts there....within 4 months, a British reporter is in receipt of the Downing Street Minutes.

You don't know Kerry. You don't understand that the big picture is those CIA agents loyal to the American people are aligned with Kerry in their push to expose the crimes of Bush's people.

They chose Kerry because they know what he went through and what he knows from his own investigations. That's why Kerry is the senator out front the most on DSM and Rove. He probably doesn't WANT to be because the media would spin him into the bad guy, as usual, for working with British pols to expose Bush's machinations. Fortunately they're too dumb to have figured it out.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. all I see here
Why didn't Kerry make an issue of the potential for vote fraud when it was obvious what was coming?

Where are these statements you say he made? Link please.

You want to give me hearsay about how he's behind the DSM leak? How do I know it's not your wishful thinking?

He is not the leader on DSM - he was a latecomer in the Senate.

Why did he vote for the IWR? For the USA PATRIOT Act?

I didn't say he's in cahoots. I say he followed a losing strategy. What his motivations are, I don't care to guess.

You're the one who wants to give him a free ride.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. He was the first senator to push DSM in the media. Why pretend he didn't?
He was the one pushing a letter to the iNtel Committee on DSM. You blame him for his work and never the senators who chose not to sign on to the letter.

That's whacked.

You know any other lawmaker who went to England early this year to meet with their counterparts? Kerry has strong allies and advocates there.

You want to deny that intel community was lining up with Kerry even before the primaries?

You want to deny that the alliance with intel was real and that Bush DIDN'T issue a purge after the election?

You think everything happens in a vacuum. I do not believe in coincidences.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-21-05 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #71
83. Republicans are good at creating multi-level chaos
that is so hard to explain..most people just get that glazed stare, and it all seems so far-fetched, that it just can't be "real"?? But it is..

There are creepy guys all over the place that have such dirty hands..we will never know the things they have done..
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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
75. agreed...(thought the same thing myself)...
Edited on Wed Jul-20-05 04:59 PM by sojourner
and kicked!
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-20-05 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
82. Maybe, we haven't all learned to focus our passion appropriately.
I'm concerned.
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