Flies, and the Lying Liars Who Eat Them

[H2O Man]

"The chief American diplomat, Joe Wilson, sheperds his flock of some 800 known Americans like a village priest. At 4:30 Sunday morning, he was helping 55 wives and children of U.S. diplomats from Kuwait load themselves and their few remaining possessions on transport for the long haul on the desert to Jordan. He shows the stuff of heroism."
-- 1990 news story by Robert Novak & Rowland Evans

As the Plame scandal threatens to destroy the Bush administration's serious compromised claim to credibility, we have witnessed the aggressive right-wing "talking points" on the news. It comes as no surprise to DUers who have taken the time to become familiar with the case. However, as several of the neocon's thousand points of misinformation have begun to pop up even here, I'd like to take a few minutes to help clear a few of them up.

This morning, I got out a copy of the "guidelines for discussing differences of opinion" that I used as a psychiatric social worker. I used these with the domestic violence groups at the clinic, and the groups of inmates at the jail. By no small coincidence, not only do many of the neocons seem to rely upon the debating tactics of bullies and brutes, but several may be incarcerated soon. But, as a democrat, I'm not interested in offering them therapy: I'd just like to discuss a couple of those tactics so we all recognize them.

In a rational discussion that involves differences between individuals or groups, it is important to focus on clarifying the differences. For example: it is a good thing that Fitzgerald is investigating possible criminal behavior on the part of two or more senior White House officials. Many people think that's good; others think it's bad.

Those who think it's good will take the basic facts involved in the scandal, and discuss them rationally. Others, who we can refer to as bullies, brutes, neocons, ex-convicts, pre-convicts, and/or supporters of the administration, do not want to discuss those facts. Instead, they wish to bring up nonsense, lies, and other things that attract flies if left on a hot sidewalk in July.

In the domestic violence and/or jail groups, we would either say, "That has nothing to do with this discussion. You are merely trying to distract us from the serious issues," and then get back to business. Other times, we would simply ignore their efforts to distract, almost as if we were stepping around a pile of something that attracts flies on a hot sidewalk in July.

Remember, "distractions" are the irrelevant material that is brought up to keep the discussion from focusing on the truth. The more we see this tactic being used, the more we know the brutes and bullies and neocons are feeling anxious. This anxiety is caused by our group (or country, in this case) coming too close to the truth about the Plame scandal for their confort. As this happens, they resort to the tactic that has worked best for them in the past -- lying.

Shall we examine a few of these lies, and perhaps make note of simple answers to them?

#1: VP Cheney did NOT send Wilson to Niger, as Wilson claims.
A: Wilson never claimed Cheney did. Numerous sources have noted that Cheney and Libby pressured the CIA to support their "theories" about Iraq and WMDs. The CIA sent Wilson to Niger.

#2: Joe Wilson was unqualified for that assignment.
A: Wilson was selected because he was uniquely qualified for the job. He had served this country honorably as a diplomat from 1976 to 1998. He had decades of experience in Africa, and was the last US ambassador to Iraq before the Gulf War.

#3:The Senate confirmed that Plame sent Wilson to Niger, yet he continues to lie about it.
A: The Senate confirmed that Plame agreed with those who approached her to ask if she felt this was a job that Wilson could do.

#4: Wilson is a democrat who is attempting to hurt the republican party.
A: Wilson has long been a political centrist. He has served both democrats and republicans; the first President Bush has called him "a true American hero."

#5: Wilson misrepresents his findings, which were inconclusive.
A: Wilson's findings confirmed two other investigations' findings. One was by another U.S. ambassador, the other by a 4 star Marine General. All three found no evidence to support any claim Niger sold Iraq yellow cake uranium. The IAEA confirmed these findings when it determined the documents were forgeries.

#6: We don't know if Plame was a secret agent, or if any law was broken.
A: Yes, we do. Executive Order 12333 requires the CIA to report suspected criminal offenses; the fact they reported on this indicates beyond doubt what Plame's status was. More, on 7-24-03, a CI attorney notified the Chief of the Counteresppionage Section of the Department of Justice of CI concerns; then, the CIA filed two reports (7-30-03 & 9-5-03) with the Criminal Division of the Department of Justice. They did this because of concerns that the White House broke the law.

#7: Rove was merely trying to set the record straight with Cooper about false claims made by Wilson.
A: Rove also called Chris Matthews and said, "Wilson's wife is fair game." The administration also contacted Walter Pincus, who told Wilson that they recognized admitting their error on the yellow cake "was the biggest mistake the administration had made," and that to cover it up, "they are coming after you."

When we see these attempts by republicans to distort the truth and to inject misinformation into the national discussion, we need to confront them just as one would any liar in a jail group.

Remember, as they feel more and more pressure -- and everyone who has read some of the new information revealed in the past couple days knows that Fitzgerald has scared the heck out of them -- they will attempt wilder lies. Do not react; always respond. We control the discussion, not the criminals.

Also, keep in mind that there is presently tremendous stress between Karl Rove and VP Cheney & "Scooter" Libby. We need to keep the pressure on, so that this tension comes to a head. It's closer to happening than the republicans dare admit publicly.

[Mandate My Ass]

1. well done

the facts are on our side, and the rhetoric from the other side is becoming more shrill and unbelievable by the minute. To remain calm in the face of their hysteria would probably make them apoplectic.

Advice taken.

[H2O Man]

2. They want us

to feed into their shit. I think most DUers will recognize the tactics from previous experiences with bullies and brutes. They try to frustrate us in discussions. They yell and butt in on us like Wild Bill O'Reilly. They say stupid things that have nothing -- absolutely nothing! -- to do with the topic at hand.

Baloney. We aren't falling for it. The more we keep on topic, the more irrational they appear to the general public.

[Mandate My Ass]

4. Yes, it sounded like the entire Repub party channelled

Bill O'Reilly today. Much to their evident dismay, every poll I've seen shows at least a comfortable 2/3, in most cases 3/4 of respondents said Rove should be fired. They're hanging themselves again like did with the Schiavo affair.

[peekaloo]

3. Thank you for this post.

Did Terry Moran actually tell Charlie Rose that this story has no traction?

I so want to believe these bastards are going to tumble but watching Bu$h's reaction to the questions yesterday made me queasy. He seemed as if he was fighting to control that smirk or an outright laugh in the faces of those questioning him. I'm hoping I misread his monkey visage but I fear they have something up their collective sleeves.

[H2O Man]

5. Bush knows that there

are serious problems facing his administration. He may be beginning to recognize that there is no way that both Rove and Cheney will be with him at the end of the year. Several journalists noted that Bush didn't give a ringing endorsement of Rove yesterday. I suspect that he'll try to save Rove by pointing the finger at Libby.

[Karenina]

6. What a tangled web we weave

when first we practice to deceive...

[H2O Man]

16. Looks like

a spider wrote, "Some Pig!" in this web.

[Karenina]

25. Gitmo dwellers get lemon chicken. The rest of us are served

[xxqqqzme]

29. yes, I believe this is down

to who goes. It is saurove, unca dick or scooter. U can bet large sums of money there is incredible dissing going on behind the scenes. I think they R fearful Fitzgerald will point @ unca dick. Fitz is not the leaking sieve starr was & that does not sit well cuz THEY ARE ALL GUILTY!

[H2O Man]

32. "THEY ARE ALL GUILTY!"

Damned right!

[me b zola]

40. reporters haven't yet said much about dick

...but I think that will change shortly. BTW, where is cheney?



Excellent post, again. :toast:

[bigwillq]

7. Great post!

:hi:

[Me.]

8. Amen Brother

and I hope this thread puts paid to those threads on Du that keep asking about Wilson's credibility. This is a matter of the RNC trying to misdirect the eye, puff and smoke.

Leslie did an interview with Wilson just minutes ago and he did a good job of playing the devil's advocate and giving Wilson a platform to refute the RNC talking points. JW even read a bit of a letter to him from GHWB.

Do you think there is a case to be made against Roverer for espionage?

[H2O Man]

11. Yes, I saw part of it.

He is his own best spokesperson. Very impressive.

I think that Rove is likely to make it hard for the VP's office. I again quote from page 444 of Wilson's book: "Apparently, according to two journalist sources of mine, when Rove learned that he might have violated the law, he turned on Cheney and Libby and made it clear that he held them responsible for the problem they had created for the administration." I expect that what Wilson goes on to describe as the "considerable tension" between Rove and Cheney & Libby will come to a head as tensions mount.

Espionage? Look towards the two "intel groups" that the neocons set up. Again, quoting from Wilson (page 432): "Among those cells are the secretive Office of Special Plans in the Department of Defense (reportedly now disbanded) and a similar operation in the State Department that is managed in the office of Under Secretary for Disarmament John Bolton."

You may recall my calling the Plame, the neocon, and the document forgery scandals the three leaves on the DU clover? Well, we need a good Irish Patrick to teach some lessons around this country. And I think Fitzgerald is prepared to do just that.

[Me.]

20. Double Hmmmm

Am reposting this on this thread because it speaks to matters of espionage. Thank God Comey, who by the way Wilson said he's friends with, chose Fitzgerald.

Scroll down to the 3rd article for this one, an article which makes the case that Fitz could and may be going after Rove for espionage.

<<<snip>>>
"But Rove's conduct certainly meets the far less demanding elements of the Espionage Act: (1) possession of (2) information (3) relating to the national defense (4) which the person possessing it has reason to know could be used to damage the United States or aid a foreign nation and (5) wilful communication of that information to (6) a person not entitled to receive it.
Under the Espionage Act, the person doing the communicating need not actually know that revelation could be damaging; he needs only "reason to know." Classification is generally reason to know, and a security-clearance holder is responsible for knowing what information is classified.

Nor is it necessary that the discloser intend public distribution; if Rove told Cooper -- which he did -- and Cooper didn't have a security clearance -- which he didn't -- the crime would have been complete.

And to be a crime the disclosure need not be intended to damage the national security; it is only the act of communication itself that must be wilful.

It's also a crime to "cause" such information to be communicated, for example by asking someone else to do so." cont.


http://www.billmon.org /

[H2O Man]

26. It could be that Rove will be

charged with espionage. In fact, a couple of the "good old boys" might be.

[xxqqqzme]

31. Where was the interview?

is there a video link available?

[eleny]

9. Thanks for this at-a-glance list

:kick:

[jhain]

10. Excellent, H2O Guy!

another desperation uttered:
I caught a few minutes of CNN's John King's Inside Politics. Dana Bash was spewing nonsense from DC and at one point he asked her how the WH felt about Joseph Wilson's speaking engagements. She started gushing- (I swear; she gushed.) something along these lines:

oh, they love it! They just love it. Because Wilson has no credibility so they just love to hear him talk because no one believes him anyway! gush.

How objective, Ms. Bash.

[peekaloo]

12. .

:kick:

[leftchick]

13. excellent H2O Man

you are one cool cucumber. I love watching the Senate repukes making asses out of themselves defending rove this afternoon. They really are scared. You can see it and smell it!

:)

[H2O Man]

15. Watch in the next week or so

as the president begins to feel pressure to back either Rove, or else Cheney & Libby. Then the shit hits the fan.

[leftchick]

21. It's Hammer time!

:woohoo:

[La Coliniere]

14. Bravo!

The repugs are spinning faster than a Texas tornado. They be afraid, very afraid.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. I really hope our dem spokespeople see this thread

This is front page material

[H2O Man]

19. I do, too.

They need to listen to the voices of the grass roots. There is more common sense found at this level than in the halls of Washington.

[Misunderestimator]

18. Nominated! You're on a roll H20!

:thumbsup:

[H2O Man]

23. Thank you!

The republicans want the democrats to make this a partisan conflict. It isn't going to work. The neocons are going to see the country unite against their treachery.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

22. Dammit, boy! Well said. Nominated again.

I hope this gets a lot of reads.

[robertpaulsen]

24. Here's some posts from H2O Man from thread 6 of the Plame threads.

H2O Man, I think this might be a good time to remind people that the misadministration at Cheney's behest tried to frame Joe Wilson before he wrote "What I Didn't Find in Africa". They knew what a threat he represented and started work in vain to smear him, and have been continously working on damage control ever since. Here are a couple posts you made on thread 6 of the Plame threads that I think everyone here needs to be aware of:

H2O Man (1000+ posts) Sun Jul-11-04 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
20. Sixteen Words: a brief history of the Wilson/Plame conflict
(based on information provided by Joseph Wilson's fantastic book!)
1-Jan 2002: First reports on Niger-Iraq uranium link surface in bush administration.

2- Feb 2002: Wilson is asked by CI headquarters to investigate possible Niger connection. He travels to Niger, and completes a thorough investigation. Wilson is one of the most talented men in US government at the level needed to do this type of job, and he did a very good job.

3-March 2002: Wilson debriefs CIA.

4-Sept 2002: First public mention of Niger-Iraq & yellow cake in British white paper.

5- Jan 28, '03: State of the Onion address by bush includes 16 words: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Niger."

6- March 7, '03: IAEA announces US documents on Niger link are forgeries.

7-March 8, '03: {A}State Dept spokesperson states "We fell for it" in reference to forged document.
{B} Wilson tells CNN that administration has far more info than State Dept acknowledged.
{C} After seeing CNN per Wilson, meeting held in VP's office: cheney, Libby, Gingrich & others begin "work-up" on Wilson to discredit him if necessary in future. emphasis added by robertpaulsen

8-June 8, '03: Condi Rice denies knowledge of forged uranium document; "Maybe somebody down in the bowels of the Agency knew about this, but nobody in my circles." (Meet the Press)

9-July 6, '03: Wilson's op-ed "What I Didn't Find in Africa" in NYT; also, he appears on Meet the Press and details the case.

10- July 10, '03: Robert Novak tells a Wilson friend who Novak DOESN'T KNOW that Wilson's "a fuck" and that Plame is CI operative on WMD issues.

11- July 14, '03: Novak's column exposes Plame.

12- July 16, '03: David Corn, in "A White House Smear," (The Nation) explains the leak violates the IIP Act.

13-July 20, '03: NBC's Andrea Mitchell informs Wilson that "senior WH officials" called her to say the 16 words aren't real story, Plame's identity is.

14- July 21, '03: MSNBC's Chris Matthews tells Wilson he "just got off the phone with Rove ... He says, and I quote, 'Wilson's wife is fair game.' I will confirm that if asked."

15- Sept 28, '03: MSNBC reports Justice Dept begins investigation.

16- Sept 29, '03: Wash Post article by Mike Allen & Dana Priest quote senior admin official: "Clearly it was meant purely and simply for revenge." Details of two senior officials lobbying six journalists are given.

17- Dec 30, '03: Att Gen Ashcroft recuses himself.

18- Jan 21, '04: Time reports a federal grand jury has begun investigation, and is hearing testimony.

19- Feb 5, '04: UPI's Richard Sale reports: "Federal law-enforcement officials said that they have developed hard evidence of possible criminal misconduct by two employees of VP Dick Cheney's office related to the unlawful exposure of a CIA officer's identity ... The investigation, which is continuing, could lead to indictments..."

20- March 5, '04: Newsday's Tom Brune reports the grand jury has issued subpoenas for phone logs, including of Air Force One from July 7-12, from July 12 "press gaggle," and White House Iraq Group from July 6-30th.

Kind of interesting.


H2O Man (1000+ posts) Wed Jul-14-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #330
335. That's the defense they are trying to use.
But it doesn't hold up under even a mild examination.

#1: On March 8, 2003, four months before Wilson even had the op-ed article exposing bush as a liar, VP cheney had a meeting in his office. In attendence were Libby, Newt Gingrich, and other high-ranking republican officials. The meeting was to outline ways to attack Wilson if he ever exposed the Niger lie. The Politics of Truth, page 452) emphasis added by robertpaulsen

#2: On July 7, 2003, the day after Wilson's NYT article, journalist Robert Novak told a person he had never met before, on a street in Washington, that Wilson was a {deleted word} and that his wife was a CIA operative who specialized in WMDs. (NYT Book Review, 5-23-04, pg 9)

#3: Ambassador Wilson has two sources who are able to document that "when Rove learned that he might have violated the law, he turned on Cheney and Libby and made it clear that he held them responsible for the problem they had created for the administration. The protracted silence on this topic from the White House masks considerable tension between the Office of the President and the Office of the Vice President." (Wilson, pg 444)

Plame indictments......thread 6
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1971177#1971408

BTW, great post once again!

[H2O Man]

28. Thank you!

This has got to be one of the more interesting periods in the past couple decades. Though the "Plame Threads" may have been, if you will excuse the expression, before their time ..... what we discussed is indeed coming to pass.

[xxqqqzme]

33. '17- Dec 30, '03: Att Gen Ashcroft recuses himself.'

that may B the one act that keeps asscrack out of hell.

[robertpaulsen]

34. LOL!

If Asscrap made a bet with God, I've got my money on God.

[yodermon]

45. 8/20/03 "work-up on wilson"

I keep reading this; what is the source?
thx

[H2O Man]

46. The "work up"

on Wilson began approximately March 8, 2003. The source is Wilson's book; he goes into interesting detail.

[bear425]

27. Beautiful, just beautiful. And, of course, thank you. n/t

[H2O Man]

30. A Water Man Request!

Please, if possible, watch both Hardball and Countdown on MSNBC tonight. While there will be some republican nonsense (which will remind you of "flies") there may be a couple surprises. David Gregory is scheduled to do us proud, I believe .... let's hope there are no restraints.

Also, should DU consider taking out a full-page ad in the New York Times, making a statement on this case? I'll make a generous donation to such a cause.

[Me.]

35. Well Let's See

There was the complete a** who had a hand in writing the '82 law and then there was Cooper's attorney who said that he thinks there is a bigger fish in the pan than anyone suspects and seemed ticked off with the obvious repug guest who had a hand in the law. Cooper's lawyer kept saying to pay attention to what the judges have said, which is also what J, Dean has said.

The CIA agent on Hardball was great and put the entire matter of how much damage has been done by these leaks, into perspective.

[H2O Man]

47. He was the fellow

who, with another old Reagan operative, wrote a series of LTTE around January 2005; they have been exposed as liars by Plame's attorney.

[leftchick]

36. The ad is a great idea

I would donate as well.

As far as tonight's shows? Gregory was a bit of a let down. Oliphant was actually siding with the enemy. Andrea Mitchell is obviously off of the kool-aid for today, that was a surprise.

Countdown had an ex-CIA fellow who was great. Hit each point about the threat to our security by those "wrapping themselves in the flag"!
I didn't catch the whole thing, I am not certain who the repuke apologist was.

[ultraist]

50. I would most certainly donate for a NYT ad!

Great idea, let's do it. :patriot:

[thinkingwoman]

37. great post, as usual!

I love your posts, but this one was particularly good. Thanks for laying out their tactics and I just want to tell you how much I love your euphamism for shit:

pile of something that attracts flies on a hot sidewalk in July

That's literary beauty!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. H2O, that was excellent! I intend to use your comments in future....

...discussions on this board and with people that I know around town.

Thank you very much! :-)

[H2O Man]

52. We need to keep the

focus on the important issues involved in the case, and not let the neocons distort the issues.

[leftchick]

39. This is too good

:kick:

[coeur_de_lion]

41. Did anyone see President Clinton on CNN tonight talking about Wilson?

I only caught what he said, I didn't hear what he was asked. He basically said that Wilson was a career diplomat, had voted for Poppy Bush and was not doing what he did out of any kind of democratic retaliation. He said it wasn't fair for Wilson to have his career ruined because of what he said -- which disagreed with Rove. Oddly Clinton did not refer to Valerie Plame by name or include her in his comments. He focused on Wilson.

Then Wilson was on, and said that this was typical of the Rove tactics, to deny and then smear or something to that effect. I had to go back to work, they had the TV on in the staff room. I was applauding and no one knew why . . . . They all looked at me like I was nuts and no one was listening to the broadcast.

Anyway, since I didn't get to see the whole thing I don't know what conclusions the interviewer drew. But he (can't remember the commentator) was very respectful of both Wilson and Clinton. This all happened I would say around 8:00 or 8:30.

I don't care much for CNN, but the little I saw seemed to be in Wilson's favor.

[coeur_de_lion]

42. Also, Wilson brought up the remark by Rove to Tweety where he said

Valerie was "fair game." He didn't come off as an angry liberal, but he was very forceful and made Rove seem pretty callous and vengeful. I'll look for the transcript in the morning.

[H2O Man]

48. The republican's are saying

"No one believes Wilson; he hurts the democrats." Baloney. When people see him on tv, he comes across as very strong.

[TacticalPeek]

43. Kick night.

:kick:

[BamaBecky]

44. Best post I have read in a long time!

I enjoyed the heck out of reading this!
Bama

:toast: :thumbsup: :hi:

[ultraist]

49. Thank you

H2O Man:

:yourock:

[H2O Man]

51. Thank you.

This has been a long time in coming!

[im10ashus]

53. Misinformation is what they're best at.

But that ALWAYS comes back to bite one in the ass. It became their M.O. during the 2000 campaign, and the American people bought into it - hook, line and sinker. They will soon see how wrong, or shall I say blind, they were to elect such criminally inept people into power. Good job here, H2O. We DO need to keep the pressure on and soon their little tangled web of lies will be woven tightly around them. Peace!

:yourock: