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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:03 PM
Original message
Pope Benedict: London terror attacks were "anti-Christian"
POPE Benedict XVI today condemned as "inhuman" a series of attacks on the London transport network which left at least two people dead and scores injured, the Vatican said.

The pontiff described the attacks as "inhuman and anti-Christian," in a telegram to the Archbishop of Westminster, Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor.

Pope Benedict added that he had learned of the attacks "with pain", and wanted to assure the victims and their families that he was spiritually close to them.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15857931-1702,00.h...
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. So I guess a lot of things in the Catholic Church's past...
were "anti-Christian" then, eh?

How about priests buggering little boys? Where's the follow-through on that evil act?
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Oh of course
Everything is always anti-Christian. Oh good grief. Playing victim again. :eyes: It's getting so old.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. Utterly Useless in Our Fight for Peace
Guess what Pope Asshole? Al Queda isn't Christian, but then again you knew that, didn't you?
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Island Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. So invading Iraq
and killing innocnent men, women and children in the process was humane and Christian? Really? My head hurts.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. In case you didn't know, the church was opposed to the war.
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Kraklen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. How about the Pope?
The new one, not the old one.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Yes. He wrote several papers in opposition,
Just Google it.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. And then went and supported the war candidate for USA president.
Guess we see how deep that opposition was.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Technically he supported one war candidate over another war candidate
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 08:51 PM by JVS
Kerry was not a peace candidate, he was merely a less swaggeringly militaristic war candidate. Kerry voted for IWR, Kerry even said that he would have voted for the war again mere weeks before the election. So it isn't to hard to see that in the eyes of a Catholic traditionalist like Benedict, Kerry's war stance would only be marginally better.

Move on to issues like abortion, stem cell research, or role of religion in society then Bush easily beats the hell out of Kerry in the eyes of Benedict.

On edit: this assumes that he actually supported Bush over Kerry, which has yet to be demonstrated
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. He's the one who penned the letter
recommending to US bishops that they deny communion to anyone who supports abortion rights.

With the timing, clearly a slap at candidate Kerry.

How about denying communion to those who support an illegal invasion and murder of innocent people? Naw.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. How is denial of Communion something which bears upon electability?
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 10:43 PM by JVS
Such an action is under the authority of the church in which a given politician desires to commune. Churches do not deal out sacraments in order to help politicians get elected, or at least they shouldn't. It is not some kind of photo-op.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Oh please.
C'mon, you don't think that had ANY political effect, maybe among Catholic voters perhaps?

Why did the letter get written at the time it did? Some U.S. Catholic politicians have been supporting abortion rights since Roe v. Wade. Thirty years later, Benny decides it's time to make a statement. Oh and it just happens to be right before a presidential election.
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October Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. That was pure politics. /eom
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
48. The Catholic Church
was also against the Iraq War.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. Yawn.
Was a retard.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
8. An interesting choice of words.
Sounds like he's a divider, not a uniter. :(
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sonicx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. so is denial of equal rights
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
11. so more christian is like....the crusades maybe? or the inquisition?
bad choice of words.
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shelley806 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. How unbelievably ignorant!!! Inhuman I'll buy, but to label it as
"anti-Christian" is absurd. It's simply the flip side of the Muslim extremists. Using the Catholic's definition of God (infinite, omni-present, eternal, etc) there is only ONE God. Infinity can only be unity. The Christian God is the same as the Muslim, as the Buddhists, as the Toaists, as the Hindis etc.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. He is in the back pocket of Bush IMO
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
14. The attacks were inhuman and anti-Christian.
I suppose you wanted him to clap?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Begging you pardon?
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 08:18 PM by Bluebear
How were these attacks against Christians only?

>I suppose you wanted him to clap?<

Icy sarcasm noted.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Anti-Christian as in against the teachings of Christ.
Not anti-Christian as in attacking only Christians. This was too random in a multi-cultural,multi-ethnic city to single out anyone.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. "I come not to bring peace but a sword."
Against the teachings of Christ, eh?
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Sword is used as a metaphor for truth.
But you knew that.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Then explain it to the fundies.
They must all be wrong. Surely the truth of the Word will be easy to reveal to them.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Fundies are fundies,ain't no explaining to them.
Their relegious beliefs are as foreign to me as their political beliefs.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. So God's Word isn't powerful enough to reach them? n/t
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ken-in-seattle Donating Member (195 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Not so far. And for detailed info with references, on the Inquisition...
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/ellerbe0.htm
excerpt:
There has been no more organized effort by a religion to control people and contain their spirituality than the Christian Inquisition. Developed within the Church's own legal framework, the Inquisition attempted to terrify people into obedience. As the Inquisitor Francesco Pena stated in 1578, "We must remember that the main purpose of the trial and execution is not to save the soul of the accused but to achieve the public good and put fear into others." The Inquisition took countless human lives in Europe and around the world as it followed in the wake of missionaries. And along with the tyranny of the Inquisition, churchmen also brought religious justification for the practice of slavery.

The unsubmissive spirit of the Middle Ages only seemed to exacerbate the Church's demand for unquestioning obedience. The Church's understanding of God was to be the only understanding. There was to be no discussion or debate. As the Inquisitor Bernard Gui said, the layman must not argue with the unbeliever, but "thrust his sword into the man's belly as far as it will go." In a time of burgeoning ideas about spirituality, the Church insisted that it was the only avenue through which one was permitted to learn of God. Pope Innocent III declared "that anyone who attempted to construe a personal view of God which conflicted with Church dogma must be burned without pity."

Before the inquisition was fully underway, the Church welcomed heretics back into its fold under terms it considered reasonable. The following is an example of such terms:

On three Sundays the penitent is to be stripped to the waist and scourged by the priest from the entrance of town ... to the church door. He is to abstain forever from meat and eggs and cheese, except on Easter, Pentecost, and Christmas, when he is to eat them as a sign of his abnegation of his Manichaean errors. For twoscore days, twice a year, he is to forgo the use of fish, and for three days each week that of fish, wine and oil, fasting, if his health and labors will permit. He is to wear monastic vestments, with a small cross sewed on each breast. If possible, he is to hear mass daily and on feast-days to attend church at vespers. Seven times a day he is to recite the canonical hours, and, in addition the Paternoster ten times each day and twenty times each night. He is to observe the strictest chastity. Every month he is to show this paper to the priest, who is to watch its observance closely, and this mode of life is to be maintained until the legate shall see it fit to alter it, while for infraction of the penance he is to be held as a perjurer and a heretic, and to be segregated from the society of the faithful.

Few heretics returned to the Church of their own accord.

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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. It's called free will.
You remember Adam?
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. Adam was not a real person.
Sorry to break it to you.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. Metaphor is in the dictionary.
Or you can google. :)
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. So god likes it when people can't figure out what he means?
And then kill each other for it?

Over who and what constitutes a metaphor?
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
47. Is this one also a metaphor?
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. - Luke 22:36
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Then he should have said "un-Christian."
"Anti-" means AGAINST. "Un-" means not like or without.

He meant the attack was AGAINST Christians and Christianity the way he put it.

Either that or he needs to chose his words more carefully to impart his true meaning.

:eyes:
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. maybe he meant "of the anti-christ" rather than against christians?
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #21
43. The pope is Catholic
He speaks to Christians as a Christian, and his comment sounded like any other papal pronouncement to me. It was no more nuanced than when a Muslim leader says killing innocents is against the principles of Islam.

As to anti-Christian vs. un-Christian, Roland99 posted the same article over in LBN and in a reply poster iverglas points out first that the article clearly is quoting a CARDINAL, not the pope, and that the Italian word used is closer to the English equivalent of un-Christian.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

:shrug:
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
36. "too random in a multi-cultural,multi-ethnic city to single out anyone"???
And yet, he still managed to do just that...

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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Christians have bombed people too.
And tortured them.

And attacked them without being provoked.

Etc.

Christianity is what Christianity has done.
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GoBlue Donating Member (930 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
16. Thanks bennie
we feel your pain. How's about a nice crusade to cheer you up?
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jazzjunkysue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
27. Um, duh? No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
I didn't know this guy was a comedian? :argh:
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jim3775 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
30. Way to stir up hatred ratso...
Typical na... Better not say it.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
31. Hey Pope: And Crusades Are Anti-Muslim, So Your Point IS???? n/t
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
33. What better judge
of "inhuman" acts ?

You heard it from the pro, uh, I mean pope.

Nope, actually, I meant pro.
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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
35. To quote "Revenge of the Nerds":
"Only humans can be inhuman".

Boy, isn't that the truth?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
37. Cool it, Pope!
How do you know everyone was a Christian who was attacked?

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
38. "un-Christian?"
Dot's a real sharp pope dey got dere, you betcha.
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ICantBelieve Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
42. Not good words...
To me they seem to indicate predjudice.

On the other hand, he may just talk that way. Once upon a time, Catholics often used the word "Christian" to mean Christ-like. That's the way I remember using it as a kid when I was Catholic. He may have meant it that way. I mean, geez, anyone can see Jesus as a good role model, whether you believe he's the son of god or not, whether you believe there is a god or not. Jesus was certainly a liberal. And he was kind. So, yes, these attacks were un-Christian.

If I heard those words coming from Bush, I'd believe they were clearly indicating something different. That the word Christian was used to mean religion. That somehow people who are of the Christian religion are better than those who are not.

The pope did not necessarily mean that. Can't tell. He seems to be an ass for sure, so I can't tell which meaning he was going for. In this case, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt since it was such a nothing statement anyway.
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