Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Al Qaida

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 03:29 PM
Original message
Al Qaida
Ok listening to pundits today I realized one more thing... most folks are trying to understand Al Qaida by transfering our values. So here is a small primer on Al Qaida

1.- It is not a top down organiztion but an umbrella organization (Yes this has apeared in open sources)

2.- Not all cells agree with each other and some are more radical than others

3.- In some ways it is a pure cell based organizatin, this means you can capture the head, but they are essencially flat. Killing or capturing OBL at this point will not do much to the overall organization.

4.- Some are fighitng us since we intend to chnage their way of life... wehther this is the case or not, perception is reality.

5.- AQ gets many of its recruits from Madrasas, funded by the Sauidis and the Pakistanis

6.- Many of these cells are also penetrating the West by reruiting people who live in the target countries, this is not a secret, just not overtly published

How do you defaet this? You cannot defeat an ideology, that is a reality... but you can defeat it by changing the conditions on the ground that lead to young men, and it is mostly young men, joining the fight... and yes it is a legal problem with some military components, but is is also a social problem.

Does bush intend to actually defeat them? No, he could not find his way out of a wet paper bag, and he has only exaccerbated the problem... but the first lesson is the one taht was NOT learned on 9.11, and it is as old as Musashi or Tsun Tzu, know thy enemy, know thyself. We don't know the enemy... and quite frankly the people who did or want to do it no longer do the work.. on the other hand we have amateaurs working for the OSP claiming that they are donig the job... they are not.

So the lesson for the day is, understand, yes understand your enemy, and find a way to drain the swamp and the bush way has only added water to the swamp.

Oh the other lesson, they will use the usual tripe to scare you... hence the alerts... and many muricans in middle america, not in real target cities will react in predictable ways, FEAR, TERRA, FEAR.. so your assignment for the day is to ask those who are getting their fear and daddy devices activated... where is OBL?


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
sintax Donating Member (891 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good Post
There is no such thing as Al Qaida as envisioned by the average US-UK citizen as promulgated by the disgusting American Media and Gov't.

But there is the highly organized, well funded and insidious CIA.

So sad that even in the liberal media today most of the discussion refuses to acknowledge any possible root causes. So we go round and round cycling the the dirty clothes in the dirty laundry.

Security stocks are on the rise.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. PNAC still follows the Cold War model
For the last 60 years, our military has been designed to fight the Soviet Union, a large, monolithic entity with a large, conventional military force.

Even after the fall of the Soviet Union, our armed forces are still designed for large scale, open, conventional combat.

Consequently, whenever we are in a conflict with a loosely organized, stealthy, unconventional guerrilla force, we tend to struggle.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. The C.I.A. & The Muslim BrotherhoodHow the CIA set the stage for Sept11
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Stop thinking that, htough there is a lot for MIHOP, LIHIOP
I tend to lean on LIHOP.... we do not understand the enemy, end of discusion

Teh first rule of warfare is, know thy enemy... we don't...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. I have often thought...
that the US/Europe would have been very wise to have sunk a huge chunk of money into educational facilities run by moderate Islamic groups in Pakistan to counter the madrasas run by the extremists. Those kids/next generation of extremists go to those schools because they are they only way to get a decent education in that country - unfortunately that education comes with years of anti-west indoctrination.

Offer them an alternative -- it's a completley win-win situation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Agreed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Terran1212 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. "The Base" is not out to get us
Thousands of people from across the Muslim World are responding to our actions with violent actions of their own. They probably are in no way related to anyone who planned the 9/11 attacks, or Spain attacks, or London attacks.

I agree with the topic creator. We must remove the causes of violence. There is no "military solution" to fighting something that has the only common ground of anger.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Oh it does have military elements to it
It does... but it is not a pure military operation as the merchants of death on our side keep telling us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. How do you defeat this?

Genocide has been known to work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Don't even go there or you bcome the enemy
You do by INCESTING, yes INCESTNG in changing conditions on the ground. thinks such as massive SECULAR education at the Madrassas... for example

You presure the governments to create jobs, one reason they join is.. no work.

Mostly you have to respect the culture as well, they think we want to change their way of life, put yourself in that place, how would you react if you were convinced an outside force is trying to change your way of life?

But the first thing you need to do is yes, understand the enemy... know him, know waht drives him, that is the lesson, truly of 9.11 we don't
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. Good post.
In times of crisis, it is important that there be rational voices. Your's is one. I thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cire4 Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. #5 sticks out at me as one of the most important....
Poor muslims go to madrasas because they provide free schooling, free housing, free food etc.

Either set up free schooling that doesn't teach religious fundamentalism or do something to help pull the lower classes of these countries (Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc) out of poverty.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Yes and the one that will be the hardest to sell
to middle America
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. They don't even want public education here.

Or at least a large percentage wants to do away with it. Which is rather ironic considering one of the first things George III did that pissed off the Americans was the appointment of an official who advocated shutting down public education in the colonies because an uneducated populace is easier to control.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I know ironic
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
15. kick
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
18. They feed off U.S. multi-national corporations' exploitation of people,...
,...and the resources of those people's nations.

I believe it would be helpful if those corporations were held to strict international standards of conduct and laws, and severely punished when their behavior violates those standards and laws.

Just my opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
19. kick for the afternoon crowd
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
20. kick for the night crowd
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:14 AM
Response to Original message
21. Reasons to doubt certain points.
1. (umbrella) It's not "an" organization at all. It's the preferred term of the CIA and Western media to describe a set of interlocking networks that evolved after the dispersal of the "Afghan Arabs" who fought in the 1980s anti-Soviet jihad.

Bin Ladin's outfit as it has been described by reliable sources resembles a spiritual retreat and college of terrorist sciences, in which the alumni get connected with others who have already established themselves elsewhere.

The networks obviously reach into associations with intelligence agencies: Pakistani ISI, most obviously. Many wish to argue CIA no longer has anything to do with these groups but it's absurd to think there aren't plenty of first and second degree associations still. You can be certain Bin Laden still has CIA people in his rolodex, and operations attributed to him through the late 1990s (Bosnia, Kosovo) were allied to CIA operations.

4. (fighting "us" because we wish to change their lives). First, I object to the word "us" to describe the West, the U.S., or whatever you're trying to say here. In every country there is the government, the people, and disparate groups within both.

More importantly, this is pop sociology of Islamic world substituting for the reality of a system of imperialism and war imposed by the West.

The reason so many people fight is because they feel their countries are being invaded (and are indeed often literally bombed) by the West.

5. Madrassas: really? I call myth, until proven otherwise. The majority of those cited by govt. and media as perpetrators of terrorist attacks against the West have been educated at Western colleges.

Madrassas are the venues through which the Taliban (students) were recruited, but these are Afghans and truth to tell, I have yet to see a story about an Afghan terrorist outside Afganistan. These guys provided a haven, but do not make up "Qaeda."

I submit that not Madrassas but intelligence agencies (including CIA and its ally ISI, MI6, Saudi), privatized tentacles of intel communities (like the Iran-Contra "enterprise") and secret societies (like P2) are the primary organizers and originators of terrorist groups (even if these do spin off into independent outfits).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. One thing you and I will agree or actually two points
this is classic blowback

Know thy enemy, know thyself, we don't, and there is no interest in the WH to know them.

As to how many of these groups originated, yes 1980s afghanistan, and yes Al Qaida, translaged as the Base is more of a coordinating bureau

But they don't hate us for our freedoms and for some cells, tehy are fighting to preserve their way of life (just as we would) whether it is being chaged by colonialism (yep) media (yep) or other forms of pressure, does not matter.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:15 AM
Response to Original message
22. Reasons to doubt certain points.
1. (umbrella) It's not "an" organization at all. It's the preferred term of the CIA and Western media to describe a set of interlocking networks that evolved after the dispersal of the "Afghan Arabs" who fought in the 1980s anti-Soviet jihad.

Bin Ladin's outfit as it has been described by reliable sources resembles a spiritual retreat and college of terrorist sciences, in which the alumni get connected with others who have already established themselves elsewhere.

The networks obviously reach into associations with intelligence agencies: Pakistani ISI, most obviously. Many wish to argue CIA no longer has anything to do with these groups but it's absurd to think there aren't plenty of first and second degree associations still. You can be certain Bin Laden still has CIA people in his rolodex, and operations attributed to him through the late 1990s (Bosnia, Kosovo) were allied to CIA operations.

4. (fighting "us" because we wish to change their lives). First, I object to the word "us" to describe the West, the U.S., or whatever you're trying to say here. In every country there is the government, the people, and disparate groups within both.

More importantly, this is pop sociology of Islamic world substituting for the reality of a system of imperialism and war imposed by the West.

The reason so many people fight is because they feel their countries are being invaded (and are indeed often literally bombed) by the West.

5. Madrassas: really? I call myth, until proven otherwise. The majority of those cited by govt. and media as perpetrators of terrorist attacks against the West have been educated at Western colleges.

Madrassas are the venues through which the Taliban (students) were recruited, but these are Afghans and truth to tell, I have yet to see a story about an Afghan terrorist outside Afganistan. These guys provided a haven, but do not make up "Qaeda."

I submit that not Madrassas but intelligence agencies (including CIA and its ally ISI, MI6, Saudi), privatized tentacles of intel communities (like the Iran-Contra "enterprise") and secret societies (like P2) are the primary organizers and originators of terrorist groups (even if these do spin off into independent outfits).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:15 AM
Response to Original message
23. Reasons to doubt certain points.
1. (umbrella) It's not "an" organization at all. It's the preferred term of the CIA and Western media to describe a set of interlocking networks that evolved after the dispersal of the "Afghan Arabs" who fought in the 1980s anti-Soviet jihad.

Bin Ladin's outfit as it has been described by reliable sources resembles a spiritual retreat and college of terrorist sciences, in which the alumni get connected with others who have already established themselves elsewhere.

The networks obviously reach into associations with intelligence agencies: Pakistani ISI, most obviously. Many wish to argue CIA no longer has anything to do with these groups but it's absurd to think there aren't plenty of first and second degree associations still. You can be certain Bin Laden still has CIA people in his rolodex, and operations attributed to him through the late 1990s (Bosnia, Kosovo) were allied to CIA operations.

4. (fighting "us" because we wish to change their lives). First, I object to the word "us" to describe the West, the U.S., or whatever you're trying to say here. In every country there is the government, the people, and disparate groups within both.

More importantly, this is pop sociology of Islamic world substituting for the reality of a system of imperialism and war imposed by the West.

The reason so many people fight is because they feel their countries are being invaded (and are indeed often literally bombed) by the West.

5. Madrassas: really? I call myth, until proven otherwise. The majority of those cited by govt. and media as perpetrators of terrorist attacks against the West have been educated at Western colleges.

Madrassas are the venues through which the Taliban (students) were recruited, but these are Afghans and truth to tell, I have yet to see a story about an Afghan terrorist outside Afganistan. These guys provided a haven, but do not make up "Qaeda."

I submit that not Madrassas but intelligence agencies (including CIA and its ally ISI, MI6, Saudi), privatized tentacles of intel communities (like the Iran-Contra "enterprise") and secret societies (like P2) are the primary organizers and originators of terrorist groups (even if these do spin off into independent outfits).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Nov 28th 2014, 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC