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plcdude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:39 AM
Original message
the root causes of terrorism
are what needs to be addressed in order to get a handle on changing these circumstances. There are myriads (literally) of terrorists who have reasons for what they are doing and planning on doing? This is not insanity. Nor is it helpful to attach the term "evil" to these events. Shock and awe is perhaps the best description of what happened in London this morning, but that strikes a little to close to home doesn't it? What do you think are the various reasons for their actions and how can we address them?
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. Sorry, ifyou can try to offer understanding to Osama & Co you won't have
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 10:40 AM by geek tragedy
my help. The people who do things like this need to be defeated, not have their concerns addressed.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. I think the point is that you must figure out why others join them
and rally to their cause. You must eliminate the sources of the desire for people to join and back people like Osama.

So long as the circumstances exist which motivate people to join Osama and his ilk, you can never eliminate terrorism.

It's not am atter of understanding Osama, it's a matter of understanding why people sympathize with him and eliminating the circumstances which cause them to rally around him.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. Relgious whackjobs have been around for centuries, committing
large scale atrocities. They're going to exist for the foreseeable future.

That's the problem with terrorists--it only takes a tiny number to do tremendous harm.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
62. I see, so in your mind, if the US had not put bases in Saudi Arabia
had not invaded Iraq, had not given unbending and one-sided support to Israel, and had not treated the entire muslim world as 4th rate human beings for the past century and treating them as if their only value to the planet was their oil there wouldn't be fewer people rallying to bin Laden's call?

The reason he is able to use religion as a rallying cry is because (a) he corrupts the religion and (b) that religion has been spat upon by the west for longer than the US has existed.

If you eliminate the root causes of terrorism, you rob people like bin Laden of their pool of recruits. You will never completely rid the world of the people like bin Laden, but you can take away the conditions which cause people to heed his call.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #62
101. The problem is that bin Laden's supporters are unable to take action
within their own societies, so they act outside them.

A big part of the problem is that severe economic and political underdevelopment of much of the Muslim world.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
65. As do filthy rich wackjobs,
for whom much more is at stake, and who have much more resources to manipulate world events and public opinion then terrorists will even have. For who religion is merely a tool.

It only take a tiny number...
I mean, just look at all them wars; "the people" never start those, they just fight and die in them.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
92. Exactly, Information is power
If you understand where your enemy is coming from, you greatly increase your chances of defeating them. To thrash about blindly like a bull in a china shop only creates more enemies, considering that there are several billion people sharing the planet with us; that is a big recruiting pool. I believe that it is impossible to truly understand evil, however it is possible to understand how they can take advantage of other people's despair, resentments and anger and use that to their own means.
What if someone early on had understood the anger and desperation that the German people would feel after the one sided punitive treaty to end World War 1 was imposed on them by a vindictive alliance? What if instead Woodrow Wilson had his way and the alliance had worked out a more equitable solution? It is entirely possible that Hitler would not have been able to hijack German democracy and tens of millions of people of the following generation would not have been slaughtered.
Our society seems to be in the process of trashing intelligence and operating on a more primitive dog eat dog level. The neocons know that in order to control our society for their purposes (world dominance), they have dumb our society down. The best way to do that is to make the intelligent look weak or criminal.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Agreed, that those who perpetrate these acts need to be dealt with but
we need to get at the root cause and address that to prevent more people from becoming terrorist.
There is a reason they hate us and are willing to kill and kill themselves.
Solve that problem and you win the war on terror.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Terrorists are the symptom...not the cause...
The cause is the apathy, and in many cases support among middle eastern populations for these attacks. It is in large part the result of our policies that have created this feeling. We need to address the requirements of these people in order to reverse this. Cut off support for terrorism among average middle easterners, and it will die - like a tumor dies when you cut off its blood supply.

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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. I suspect that the vast majority of Arabs and other Middle Easterners
oppose terrorism.

A lot of these terror cells have been run out of Europe, as well.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Probably...but
They are not highly motivated to support leaders who are going to crack down on them. They see us killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians in Iraq for example and proabbly say to themselves "why help them."
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. They oppose terror, but they know that terror is everywhere.
They know that the powerful industrial countries are the biggest supporters of terror in the world.

As long as they feel terrorized by the industrial powers, they arent going to be in any particular hurry to convince their neighbors who wish to respond with thier own terror to stop.

Im sure if the people of America rejected the terrorists in the pentagon, the people of the Middle East would be happy to do likewise with thier terrorists.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #11
27. There is no single cause.
That is what seems to be tripping people up.

Every cause is itself an effect of some other set of causes etc.

The issue is where in the giant network of causes and effects are the things that can and should be changed to stop the cycle.

It is also extremely important to remember that the more power any agent or party has, the more of the factors involved in the cycle are under thier control. I think that is the crux of who we should be aiming our blame at.

For all thier prominance, the terrorists have very little power. They are almost entirely reactionaries.

The reason the blame should be placed with Bush and Blair is because they are the ones who have power over vast portions of the cycle that involves this violence.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. Nice Right Wing Talking Point
"The people who do things like this need to be defeated." Who ever said we wouldn't continue to fight against terrorism? Finding other avenues in conjunction with what we are supposedly doing now may help.

Fighting in Iraq is NOT helping, it's making matters worse.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. Sorry, but I find an unwillingness to condemn mass murder like
this as "evil" to be evident of appeasement-mindedness.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Looking for the Root of That Evil
is not "appeasement-mindedness". It's smart.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. yeah
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #31
55. If you find uninformative terms like evil appealing, fine,
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 11:48 AM by K-W
but dont judge other people because they like to have a fact based understanding of the world rather than just sitting around classifying world events on some simplistic scale of good and evil.

Such dualism serves no purpose but to obscure the true complexity and real causes of human behavior.
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plcdude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Thank you
you said it much better than I could have but that is what I meant by using the term "evil" as unhelpful. It diverts us from finding the real reasons behind behavior. Evil becomes not only a descriptor but the reason and therefore one has no need to seek other explanations.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
77. Bing! Right Wing Talking Point No. 2!
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 12:42 PM by The Stranger
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #31
95. A person should condemn this.
Yet a person attempting to understand an enemy should not be confused with a person attempting to excuse or justify their enemies' behavior. A wise person always attempts to understand what motivates their enemy. Always.
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Blackdg Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. Agreed
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 11:03 AM by Blackdg
The sick, twisted people who had such absolute control over their own populations that they put their own sisters and mothers in Burqas (sp?) would never be satisfied with any aid or understanding we could give. Even if we acceded to every demand they wanted, do you think they would tell their own people that the "Great Satan" is now a good guy? No, we will always be the "Great Satan" because we will NEVER put our sisters and mothers under a Burqa. Sometimes you have to put a mad dog down.

Oh yeah, you don't think this is evil? And before you alert on this message, I think our own Gov't is guilty of evil as well. Every human has the capacity to commit evil. But to say that this was not evil.... What would meet your standard? Would you ever use the word?
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. Karl Rove is that you??
Nobody is saying that we should coddle to their every wish or whim. However, to know their motivations and why they act the way they do would help the world immensely.

To be completely ignorant to their reasons is what Bush wants. He does not want the war on terror to end because it is good for his military business.

If we are truly to win the war on terror, we must try to figure out the roots of terrorism.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. I'm a liberal and I disagree strongly with the OP. Karl Rove claims
that all liberals think like the OP.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. and I agree with the OP - its common sense
I cannot for the life of me see why we should simply brush terrorists off as madmen and not try to understand what motivates them?????

I completely fail to see your logic. Or are you just going off emotion right now?
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. You Do Understand, That NO Problem Is Ever Solved. . .
. . .without identifying and understanding the root cause, don't you?

Getting a firm understanding of what causes these things is necessary even if we get the people who did the London bombing. Otherwise, what's to stop the next group, with essentially the same irrational "solutions" to their greivances from picking up where these punished perpetrators left off?

The answer, GT, is nothing. One does not put a bandaid on skin cancer.
The Professor
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #37
45. Are we talking about systemic root causes or individual motivations?
The former are indeed worth exploring--the latter most definitely not. "Stop angering terrorists" is not a viable policy, whereas "help create societies less conducive to terrorism" is most definitely necessary.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. We Obviously KNOW What I'm Talking About
Otherwise you wouldn't have presented the options.

And, the "personal" motivations are always completely personal, since the extrinsic elements of life and society drive those as well.

So, obviously, the only root causes of consequence are systemic. But, like i said, you already knew i meant that.

The Professor
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. I believe you are stating something different than the OP and others,
who believe we need stop offending the sensibilities of would-be terrorists. As you and I have both noted, such an approach is counterproductive and Quixotic.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #50
56. I Think We Have Found A Common Page
We were in the same book, now we're on the same page.

The issue, i believe, is that we have to develop a foreign policy PHILOSOPHY (not the details or the specific actions) that seeks to extend amelioration and understanding, at the grass roots economic level. This floats all boats and undermines any virulence in anti-american sentiment.

Give everyone enough to eat, a place to get out of the rain and cold, and a safer existence. Then, these people will become PARTNERS in our need for resources and markets. When is that last time two economic partners declared war on one another? It's pretty hard to get worked up over american cinema being the downfall of your society when the relationship is satisfying nearly everyone's basic need structure.

No?
The Professor
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. Same paragraph, same sentence, same punctuation mark.
Cheers.

P.S. Though, the our trading partners the French still bemoan American cinema. Mainly, I suspect, because even the French don't go to see French films anymore.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Good Closing Note
Got a chuckle.

Cheers, in return.
The Professor
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. "help create societies less conducive to terrorism"
And how exactly do you propose doing that if you do not take the time to learn what causes terrorism???

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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. I'm for studying systemic causes. I'm not interested in the individual
views held by people like Mohammed Atta and Eric Rudolph.
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Blackdg Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #37
53. OK,
Let me expand upon my comment. Say we put together a focus group of terrorists, and we spend a weekend listening to them explain why they want to kill innocent civilians in London.... And we get the best minds together to fully understand why they are the way they are...

And the long and the short of it is - Because we are not like them. We wont do or believe what they believe. Because our women have jobs outside the home. Because as a society we don't really have a problem with adultery. Because we insist on making movies in Hollywood with scantily clad women. Because we won't pray 5 times a day, let alone go to church only 2 times a year. Because many of us don't believe in Allah, let alone any god.

In other words, some of the terrorists want to kill us simply because we are the "Infidel".

Yes, yes, yes, I know that a lot of terrorists want to kill us because of our foreign policy. I do not dispute that. But there are also terrorists who would happily slit our throats at the end of the focus group weekend because we are non-believers.

So now what do we do? We have taken the time and effort to fully and completely and intimately understand why they want to kill us. And the reason is because of ideology of one stripe or another.

I reject the repuke ideology as misguided (on a good day) or even evil (on most days). And so do you.

Do we have a good (or justifiable) reason to indiscriminately kill innocent women and children?
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. Your Question Would Have Merit, If. . .
. . .anywhere in my post, i condoned today's actions. You will find i did not.

And, underlying all ideological differences, even those rooted in religion, is disparity. If policy issues involve one country getting happy and wealthy on the backs of more needy and less happy people, the religious fervor is just gasoline on the blaze. It's not the root cause. It's an exacerbating influence.

So, the root cause is still extant and until we examine how to bridge the cultural divide, we will see more of the same.

The Professor
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Blackdg Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. This is a fascinating discussion...
Help me to understand... What policy of ours involved us getting happy and wealthy on the backs of more needy and less happy Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis, Afghanis and Saudis? And please provide the most simplistic explanation because it is a very simplistic message that the Imams are spouting in the Mosques daily. (Kill the infidel - Kill the great satan!) The problem they have with us IS OUR ATTEMPTING TO BRIDGE THE CULTURAL DIVIDE. They reject our culture entirely. They do not want a Dell in every household or Madonna CDs or women executives. That is pretty clear. The best I can figure is they want CULTURAL ISOLATION. And I think we should probably give that a shot.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. The Policy Has Been Propping Up Dictatorial Regimes. . .
. . .friendly to the west, at the expense of the population, to exploit their resources for decades in order to pay below market value for those resources.

If you were thinking beyond simple X/Y, or in merely two dimensions, you would understand that the underlying resentment that makes us untenable infidels, is that we SHAFTED THEIR POPULATION FOR 75 YEARS!

Islam had no problem dealing with the outside world for over 500 years. Then, we screwed the pooch as a culture.

The religion, as a construct, does not reject progress. (At one point, the islamic world was 200 years ahead of the western world in science and mathematics.) The religion does not inherently promote isolation. You're simply incorrect about that.

The feeling of resentment and the desire to REJECT ALL THINGS WESTERN is a reaction formation to the shafting we've been giving them for many, many years. The religion is merely an exacerbating influence, which is leveraging a pre-existing resentment to fire up the masses.

This is far more apparent than you make it. You are too willing to stop your critical thought on the single plane, and are missing it.

The Professor
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Blackdg Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #63
72. I agree with everything you have said
Now, what do we do to fix it. What is the current/last dictatorial regime that is propped up? My question is what have we done to them lately? Well more prescisely, what did we do to them in the 5 years before 9/11? Again, I hear loud and clear today that they reject the western culture and want to be left alone. Why don't we do that?
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #72
85. It's The Oil!
I don't doubt your approach would be helpful. But, we're not going to do that in the short run. I would say it might be useful to spend more on aid, make sure it gets to the grassroots, and spend less on defense.

But, somehow i doubt that'll happen either.
The Professor
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. U.S. multi-national corporations have been exploiting others,...
,...around this great earth for decades. Pick up, "Confessions of an Economic Hitman", which is a true story involving the tyrannical exploitation of needy people by U.S. multi-national companies. The reality of what corporate America has done, with government support and behind the backs of the Americans, explains a great deal about what is happening today. What's stunning is that this corporate cabal (aka BushCo/neoCON regime) is now exploiting the American people in much the same way they have exploited those outside our country.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
99.  the Rove quote,
"Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers."

mmmm
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. Um, pardon me, but if we don't figure out the root cause of the problem,
then how the FUCK does it ever get solved for good? ARMAGEDDON? BOMBS AND EXPLOSIONS KILLING US ALL?!??!?!?!?

Damn right I'm angry!

*'s actions are tantamount to your statements and his actions have only caused terror attacks worldwise to INCREASE by a HUGE factor. So what is going on is not just working it is having the contrary effect!

YES. We need to get those monsters defeated. Put behind bars with the lock fused and key melted or executed. It's even fine by me if OBL gets hung by his nuts in front of a large, warmly applauding audience... I'm making that clear here and now in a language that everybody should understand because there are monsters in this world that need to be taken care of and no liberal ever said that OBL no longer interested them. (guess who HAD, however... x( President #43, the grand master of degenerate imbeciles.) I'm making this clear so that no reich-wing fanatic can dare sao I am for the terrorists or any other asinine remark.

But we also have to look at WHY people do things. It's called being part of a civilized society. Making new cute laws doesn't always work and sometimes has the opposite effect; as we have seen...

Sometimes we need to work WITH human nature to stop vile things from happening. So we have to understand human nature and what drives people to kill. (greed, irrational clinging to personal beliefs, and even sexual repression (or repression within a stern religious system) and I'm pointing out the sex angle ONLY because a republican radio DJ (KQRS 92.5FM, Minneapolis MN) had said the same thing with a SERIOUS tone of voice) of all things are the common suspects)

Terrorism is either brought out by agrression over a perceived aggression or out of religious belief. Or the former using the latter as an EXCUSE.

And, let's face it, America's own arrogance, economic bullying, exortion, embezzling, and how much more must I remind you of, are JUST AS MUCH VALID FACTORS in the root cause of terrorism. The US is hardly no innocent angel in all of this. We too are guilty. You cannot provoke a fight and then blame SOLELY the person for throwing the first punch. Actions leading up to the punch are JUST AS RELEVANT. Especially when your actions exploit or harm great numbers of people; that in turn gets great numbers of people to respond. It's human nature.

And as things continue to worsen, the chances of diplomacy will worsen as well. The way the world has been responding to the US - with COMMUNIST CHINA of all places now being seen in a more favorable light :wtf: , it is quite clear that the US, as a country, needs to fess up and make amends.

We either work towards peace or protect what we "have", which in turn will only incite more. Just as has been done the last ~4 years.

We need to work on BOTH defense to protect ourselves WHILE taking proactive steps to end our arrogant ways, which is a factor and don't deny it, or else we shouldn't bother at all. After all, * said OBL didn't interest him and he kept doing what he wanted out of his own arrogance and ego (IRAQ).
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. Bravo! well said n/t
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. It's one thing to understand the systemic causes of terrorism.
It's quite another to treat their concerns as legitimate and to say that terrorism isn't "evil."
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #34
43. nobody is saying terrorism isnt evil
But understanding their concerns and making changes in the world could completely take out their will to continue to commit terror.

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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. So, we should just avoid upsetting terrorists? Sorry, but appeasement
went out of style a few decades ago.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. understanding IS NOT appeasement n/t
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. You advocated "understanding" the terrorists' concerns and modifying our
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 11:38 AM by geek tragedy
behavior so that they wouldn't want to kill us anymore.

If that's not appeasement, what is?
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #54
73. Why not respond with more than these mindless parrot memes?
WE have. We could get into even more detail the likes you've ever seen. Some of which would even prove YOUR point and some of us are more than happy to lay ALL considerations on the table and deliberate from there.

You're just acting like a record player gone bust. That is non-productive at best, disruptive at worst.

And despite my posts you've clearly been ignoring me so you don't need to respond to this one either.

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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #73
102. As I said, it's one thing to take into account root systemic causes.
It's quite another to consciously change policy in order to avoid angering terrorists, or would-be terrorists.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #51
71. BINGO.
I would dare make some other parallels that wouldn't change his tune either. But why are we wasting our times? Especially when most of us were just as upfront when saying we need the perps put away or executed? We do not appease anyone; we want them stopped but we ourselves are not innocent of provoking violence - and that is just as relevant.

I may as well call him something nasty on DU. If the mods were like him in mindset, such a post would NEVER get deleted. Why? Because I didn't bomb him, I merely took an action with a direct intent to hurt. THAT is terrorism; taking actions designed to deliberately hurt others. That is more than just killing and if he still wants to call us all appears, so be it. We've already spelled things out and if he can't understand it, that's not our fault. Apparently reasoning and progressing are intolerable concepts. Blind revenge is tantamount, because it's all about us and we are never wrong and we are too good to even stop and think that we may have hurt someone.

But like I've said before, I think we're all beyond recrimination anyway.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
69. I'm not disagreeing with you re: murder is evil! I'll tell you about evil!
You seem to be ignoring the FACT that evil is far more than just playing with a bomb. Evil revolves around deliberate acts to hurt other poeple.

GREED hurts othr people.

WILLFUL ARROGANCE hurts oter people, particulalry when greed is involved.

BULLYING OTHERS hurts people, can I tell you some incidents about that.

CORPORATE CEOS EMBEZZLING PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR RETIREMENT AND EVEN JOBS (e.g. KEN LAY) is VERY EVIL.

What has that fucker done about Ken Lay anyway? NOTHING. He, as usual, is doing what he wants to do and for his own pleasure. Namely Iraq and promoting his corporate buddies. This isn't taking care of America, he is taking care of himself and those who help him ILLEGALLY. THAT IS EVIL TOO.

Hell, there comes a point when being dead is preferable to being poor and starving and maimed.

Now take me out of your group of people as being labelled "sympathetic to terrorists". You obviously didn't read my response to you for I am against those who have maimed and murdered. But the cause is just as relevant and I pity you if you choose to remain so one dimensional.
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mnmoderatedem Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
81. you must listen to Tom Barnard in Mpls
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 12:54 PM by mnmoderatedem
regarding his "sex" thoery. And yes, apparantly he's dead serious.

This morning one of his cronies actually said that the reason terrorists don't attack China instead is that China is non politically correct and would not tolerate terrorism and would quickly crush it.

Sigh...

edit: typo
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
93. "try to offer understanding to ...."
I'm surprised to see that comment from you. That clearly isn't what the OP said. I suspect that you are upset, as we all should be, by today's events.
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Francine Frensky Donating Member (870 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
96. If your car breaks, do you try to understand the problem
or do you just whack it with a big hammer??

Analyzing the problem is the first step to solving it. That's what's needed in the case of terrorism: analyzing why these people are such whackos and then figuring out how to keep others from turning that way.

It's like getting rid of mosquitos: first you hit all the ones you see, then you put on bugspray, but then you have to find out where they are coming from and stop the source.

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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
103. If you can't fight like the rich kids you fight like the street kids
usually the rich kids are the bullies and no one ever listens to the street kids. Then, the street kids rise up and bite you in the ass.
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
2. Poverty and Oppression are the causes of Terrorism
Solving them will put an end to terrorism.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Most of the AQ terrorists aren't poor. In Afghanistan, it was common
to find Saudis wearing Dolce & Gabbana and other designer brands.

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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I don't think that terrorists themselves are poor
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 10:44 AM by ck4829
I think at one point they feel impoverished.

I'm going to think about this for a while, I just got a revelation and will put it in a new thread.
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cssmall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. They most certainly not poor.
I would believe that NONE of Al Qaida's leaders have ever tasted poverty and felt the gnarl of an empty stomach. In Gothic horror tales, the hero and the villian are nearly unidentifible. Don't forget that. It's very easy to see them in us and we in them. In both cases, the rich fuck the poor by making them believe in this fundementalist dogma. See: America under Bush Presidency.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #14
47. actually, bin Laden although not poor in a monetary sense
lives a simple and very difficult life. As does Ayman Al-Zawahiri. They go hungry on a daily basis, sleep in sub-zero mountain weather with barely a blanket and a fire. They do it for a cause. But, by and large, you are right, the rich do fuck the poor. On either side. Just by wary of underestimating a guy like bin Laden. He's a formidable opponent. A loathsome one, but he can handle his shit. He's outclassed Bush for 3 years now. It's embarassing.
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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
91. the leaders aren't the ones strapping bombs to themselves
and taking out entire city blocks. They are inciting the poor, hungry, oppressed and desperate by promising them the better life in the hereafter if they would but sacrifice their mortal body for the glory of their immortal souls. What else could make a person die for a cause but by being convinced that their reward lies in the hereafter?

The leaders never take a hit for the team. They leave that to the minions they convince to carry out their vision. That's true for any leader spouting extremiest religious rhetoric.
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cssmall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. They most certainly not poor.
I would believe that NONE of Al Qaida's leaders have ever tasted poverty and felt the gnarl of an empty stomach. In Gothic horror tales, the hero and the villian are nearly unidentifible. Don't forget that. It's very easy to see them in us and we in them. In both cases, the rich fuck the poor by making them believe in this fundementalist dogma. See: America under Bush Presidency.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
74. Then why can't they go after their own leaders?
Why attack the Western world if it's their own nutjob leaders keeping themselves impoverished?

Are their leaders who deal with us also telling them we are their enemy? Double-dealing isn't uncommon either.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
67. But then again, not all Saudis are terrorists.
Nor are all Afghani people, for that matter.

Makes me wonder though what those rich people from Saudi Arabia were doing in Afghanistan.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #67
100. Saudi-occupied Arabia is a cesspool of hatred and religious extremism.
The disease of Wahabbism gets most of its support there.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
105. Nonsense
If Poverty and Oppression were the causes of Terrorism then we would see most terrorists originating from the poorest and most oppressive countries in the world. We don't see that because your proposition is wrong.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. Maybe they did not get the memo that
we are actually there to liberate them. (from their mineral wealth that is)

Had they gotten it, then maybe they would be passing out flowers in the subways.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. It was Iraqis who bombed London? What's your source? eom
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. I was bieng a smart ass. I have no source.
I really have no idea who the bombers were. Sadly enough, I would not even be shocked to find out that the CIA did it to distract media attention from DSM, Rove, and sagging poll results.

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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. I was pointing to our foriegn policy as being the greatest
source of terrorism in the world today BTW. At least that is my view.
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
9. As you say poverty and oppression.
But zealotry of some stripe will always exist. Especially Religion, as many sects provide for the conversion, by force in some cases, of the nonbelievers.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
10. Fundamentalism. Ideology over reason.
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RPM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #10
40. yup - time to ban religions
they are no longer useful positive forces.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. The problem is, that's an essentially religious solution.
Setting up institutions to decide what kind of thinking is "too religious," and therefore verboten.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
12. Why is it not helpful to attach the term evil to mass murder?
If this is not evil, than the term has no meaning.

I do agree with the overlying argument that we look at Islam and the region that produces these Terrorists simplistically. I've critiqued that mentality a number of times.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
18. I'm out of breath on this
military defense alone will not stop the cycle of violence. Moreover, if we don't reign Bush in, we may become permanent victims of his designs for perpetual war.
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prole_for_peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
22. i totally agree.
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 11:00 AM by kmlewis
i don't think that attacks on civilians should be used to further a cause but the attackers do. if we can figure out what their "reasons" are then we can find ways to address these concerns, if legitimate, or to stop these things before they happen.

sorry this isn't very articulate but i am listening to the radio, working and cruising du at the same time. and i am so mad about the admin in this country and their "role" in these types of killings.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
26. Terrorism is a Symptom. The Key is correct diagnosis
One can treat a symptom (i.e. war, bombing etc.) but the symptom will return if that's all one does.

What's the correct diagnosis? Lots of issues

US Foreign policy
Shock and Awe
Human Rights abuses
Support of regimes

That's a start.

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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
30. The main cause: bored, horny, religiously insane young men
There are causes that the US and the West can control. But until the cutlure in the Muslim world changes to the point to the point that young men have jobs and social lives, there is always going to be a recruiting base.
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cssmall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #30
41. Nice...
So who said that Hannity or Colms? Get real. That is half of it, but it's just another bunch of rich idiots pushing their dogma on the marginalized. Yeah, they don't have a job, they don't have a social life, because they come from shit and people like the Saudis, not the fucking Iraqis, play their little culture of richer than thou means holier than thou.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
68. Of course, since there's no such thing as exploitation of poor nations
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 12:25 PM by rman
by rich nations in this world.
And if there would be, it could not possibly cause people to rebel against their oppressors.
So it must be caused by boredom and hornyness.

(edit: darn typos)
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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
33. Some of the root causes of terrorism
1. Extreme poverty coupled with no sense of hope in rising above it, especially among the young, making these people feel like losers. Young people trapped in destitution with little or no chance for making an honest living are more likely to join some sort of criminal organization, be it street gangs, rackets, or terrorist organization.

2. Oppression. People who are constantly beaten down and live in fear get fed up, ending up angry at their oppressors, the system, and even themselves. Their anger boils over into rage and causes them to lash out at friend and foe alike. They can no longer think straight. Because they can't attack their oppressors head-on, they resort to guerilla or terrorist tactics to lash out, killing indiscriminately.

3. A sense of hopelessness, desperation, and/or some sort of mass major depression. People who feel they have nothing to lose but the lives they no longer value are more willing to commit atrocious acts of terrorism than those who do retain even the slightest sense of hope for improving their lot in life. Suicide bombers often fit this description.

4. Illiteracy and ignorance. Ignorant and/or illiterate people are far more impressionable than their more sophisticated/educated counterparts and thus make easy recruits for terrorist organizations. This holds true especially for low-level "grunts."

5. Authoritarian family/community/political structures. Kids raised in authoritarian households, communities, or political systems are more likely to grow up blindly obeying anyone who claims to be an authority, right or wrong, often to the point of committing the most atrocious acts of crimes against humanity on command. They're more like trained seals than thinking human beings because they disowned their God-given free will. Religious fundametalist leaders salivate at the idea of easily recruiting these kinds of people.


This is not an exhaustive list.

We have to understand the enemy, even think like the enemy, to defeat the enemy. This is exactly what cops do to nab criminals. But conservatives don't understand this, and thus judge the enemy by their own mentality (perhaps because they think the same way?). Understanding the enemy does not equal making excuses for, and condoning the behavior of, the enemy. It means putting yourself in their shoes in order to make your job of defeating terrorism easier.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
39. The perception of injustice along with inescapable oppression.
Now, what drives the oppressors is a completely different matter.
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
42. "occupation" is a principal cause
There are hundreds of millions of world poor who do not do terrorism.
There are hundreds of millions of oppresssed.

IT is the armed invasions and occupations of nations that cause the
terrorism problem, and these in older cases are framed as "sparatists"
when in fact they are still opposing and injust armed occupation.

This fits for all terrorisms by:
IRA
ETA
Iraq
Palestine/west bank
Afganistan
Saudi Arabia (occupied by america by proxy)
Pakistan (occupied by america by proxy)

That is your terrorism for you... occupying other lands without
remorse, killing civilians with impunity, leads people to decide that
they've nothing to lose in their fight back against injustice and
tyranny.
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spindoctor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
60. There is no cause for terrorism in general. It is a tactic. A SCARE tactic
It is a strategy for those that are underpowered. Seriously, do we expect any military opponent to meet us at high-noon for a shoot-out?

The US army will win any conventional war. So our opponents use the same strategies that we used in the 18th century to defeat the Brittish empire and will not play by the 'rules'.

I think that what you are trying to determine is why terrorist organizations seem to have an easier time meeting their recruitment goals than the US armed forces.

Terrorists see themselves as freedom fighters. They want control over their own land and their own resources. Because of the strategic importance of both of them, they can't do so without stepping on Uncle Sam's toes. You can't understand their motives without understanding their history, which is far more complex than it tends to be depicted here.

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #60
70. "They want control over their own land and their own resources."
But we can't let them. Because we are stronger then them, it's our natural right to claim their resources. Or so the reasoning goes by those who have the power and wealth to make it so. Has been for a long time, and the rest is history - we're right in the middle of it. The neocons are just the most recent - and a chillingly overt - exponent of that.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #70
76. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. Your perspective is shallow and boxed.
You act like the actions of a few violent extremists or of those who are retaliating against extreme injustice and long-term oppression represent an entire people.

You also deny the economic and violent terrorization of people by corporacrats.

Your absolutist thinking will never lead to solutions towards peaceful co-existence under the security of the rule of law. To the contrary, your absolutist imposition will simply expand violence in this world.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #76
82. Go Build A Nuke Bunker and Chill In It Ok?
In the mean time, let us try to figure a way out of your paranoid world.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #76
84. sorry to say this, but he's correct
i'm not going to say anything, just read this book. you can look through it online http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0884198847/ref=sib_dp_p...
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #76
87. at last THE TRUTH is here. wow. you are so well reasoned.
welcome to DU. Tolerance is a good thing. bye.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #76
88. Yup, that's the old crap rethoric spoken by those who are full of crap.
Thanks for the splendid post.

(not saying that you are full of crap, i suppose you're just quoting)
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #76
89. You are completely wrong!
It's the ALIEN LIZARDS and their compliant and malleable lizard drones!


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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
75. Root cause analysis is the only way. It's called clear-headedness.
Clear-headedness used to be prized by Americans. Let's hope they learn to respect it again.

Plain and simple. Bush's war in Iraq has opened Pandora's box. It was possibly the single stupidest, most reckless act in world history.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #75
83. It's Also Called Rational and Not Reactionary
like so many trigger happy ditto heads. Which by the way are falling into the terrorism cycle.
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Cats Against Frist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
78. Anyone who uses the term "evil" to describe anything
is beyond help, IMHO. And "understanding" is understanding why, not appeasement.

And pretending your hands are clean, when they're dirty doesn't change anything.

Look, anyone with a brain knows that they don't "hate us for our freedoms," anymore than the neocons hate freedom -- in a sense. People will defend their "philosophies of order" with whatever it takes. People will exploit, pillage, colonialize, torture and kill to make themselves stronger.

The travesty in all of this is that the right has attempted to politicize terrorism to score political points of the heads of Joe Bobby & Jane Matching Towels. It puts us more in danger. Intelligent parsing of the situation destroys collective myths that keep people working and consuming.

Even the neocons know there are "root causes" of terrorism -- they're not stupid. They just don't give a fuck.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
80. Occupation and Corporate Economic Oppression
I think our occupation in the Middle East is Creating terrorism.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
86. Hello Michelle Malkin Readers !
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mnmoderatedem Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Congrats plcdude and IdaBriggs!
I guess you're famous now! :)
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plcdude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #90
97. I would call that
infamy myself
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nytemare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
94. If "know your enemy" is the idea you are trying to get across
I understand what you mean. What they do is evil. The worse part of that evil is that it brought about justification for an illegal war, which is evil in itself.

The problem with labeling it only as evil is that we do not try to understand the M.O., and predict future actions. Also, we do not try to calculate the best way to face it, that will get the best results. We took the war out of Afghanistan to Iraq, in the process we made Iraq another Afghanistan.

Sun Tzu would be rolling in his grave.
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
98. I happen to be a pacifist and an atheist...
.... I do understand that pragmatically speaking something must be done to disuade and stop these folks from continuing to murder people. However, I think we are seeing a clash of civilization movement taking place. Our liberal western society represents everything that the backward Arab world hates, from the role of women, to our sexual freedoms.

I blame their religion.
Not that I find anything redeeming in other religions, but I'm certinly not seeing the Jesuits or the Zen monks running around the world blowing people up. Sure, anyone can find ridiculous notions present in all religions, and individuals like Eric Rudolph who obviously forget the very tenants of the religion they claim to protect...but there's no way around it....Islam in it's extreme forms is dangerous to human life. This jihad against the west, may very well have to do with our policies in the middle east...but it's naieve to think that those policies alone, have created this movement.

Without Imams standing up and denouncing the people who commit these acts of murder as "infidels" themselves....I can't see anything changing any time sooon....No matter how many Islamists Bush and Blair kill.

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
104. not all REASONS qualify as EXCUSES ...
if our goal is to reduce the number of terrorist incidents around the world, you are correct that we need to understand the motivations of those who commit violent acts against innocent civilians ...

and in doing so, we will find that many actions of the US government itself have contributed to the hatred many have for the US and other western nations ...

this DOES NOT JUSTIFY TERRORIST ACTIVITY ... it is immoral to murder innocent civilians ... US imperialism is a reason some resort to terrorism; it does not excuse terrorism ... there's a difference between the two and the difference is important ...

and in criticizing western imperialism and recognizing it as a contributing factor to Islamic terrorism, we should condemn both the actions of the US government and the trans-national corporations that own it in addition to the wrongful, immoral actions of terrorists ...

there are TWO WRONGS here and neither is justified by the other ...
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