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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:47 AM
Original message
Why I can't take the pledge
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 10:51 AM by senseandsensibility
I can't take the pledge not to politicize this latest attack in England because I saw what happened when our party "took the pledge" after 9-11. In what was supposed to be a show of support immediately after the tragedy, they did not question this administration. They were silent for so long that * and his cronies set the tone for EVERYTHING that followed based on our silence. Thanks to our silence and support, we are now in Iraq four years later. Hundreds and thousands are dead, and there is no end in sight. Everyone now knows the war was unjustified, but that changes nothing. They never would have been able to "sell" it if our side hadn't rolled over and died.

So I will not sign the pledge. Even one day of silence from us will allow this administration to get a foothold into the hearts and minds of the American people. We can not allow that. As long as what we say is true, not speculative, respectful of the victims of this attack, and proactive, WE have nothing to feel guilty about. It is the other side that should feel guilty.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. BRAVO!
We have to discuss this and be open about it.

Use the "I" word. Our leaders are INCOMPETENT and that incompetence lead directly to this attack.
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GeekMonkey Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. EXACTLY!
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. Absolutely
My feelings for what happened in London are not diminished by my ability to reason out what happened there. We need to talk about this, it helps us all....
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inchhigh Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. So I will not sign the pledge.
Worthy of repeating:

"Even one day of silence from us will allow this administration to get a foothold into the hearts and minds of the American people. We can not allow that. As long as what we say is true, not speculative, respectful of the victims of this attack, and proactive, WE have nothing to feel guilty about. It is the other side that should feel guilty."
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
5. Exactly.
It's like taking a pledge to not talk about medicine the day you're diagnosed with cancer.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
6. did any elected leader suggest not "politicizing" this?
Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
7. Thank you, spot on!
While I grieve for our brothers and sisters in London, and will keep them in my thoughts and prayers, to not delve into the reasons WHY this horrible tragedy happened would be a disservice to them, and ourselves.

And you can believe that right now, if not long ago, Bushco and his pet poodle Blair, are working on a way to use this horrible act to their advantage. Can you say Iran? I knew you could!
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Their plans for Iran
are what prompted me to start this thread. Do we want to look back four years from now, when we're knee deep in another unjustified war, and say, "why were we silent AGAIN?" They will use this if we let them.
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
8. Hear, hear!
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 10:56 AM by acmejack
We can not, must not, give any slack to these people. If we can make them just keep one ball too many in the air, interesting things will begin to happen.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
9. Me neither - I totally avoided that thread because of this
well put.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
10. Assuming this is Al Qaeda (and not, say, Sein Fein), does it make
Bush's claim that "we have to fight them there, so we don't have to fight them here" FOS, like everything else he says?
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Everything he says
is FOS, regardless. That's a given. :)
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name not needed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. Just making a clarification here
Sinn Fein is a political party, they don't conduct bombings. You're thinking of the IRA, which is unlikely, mainly because things are still relatively calm in Northern Ireland.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
13. These are the victims of politics
PNAC plain and simple. Many people were doomed(if not all of us) when these scoundrels lied their way into power over us. Trying to isolate this murder now as an isolated attack by crazed terrorists is a political lie of large scope.

It is a political war now waged with real bombs and bullets instead of fake ballots and yellow journalism.

If we were to be silent we should turn off the TV, return the papers, pray and rage and weep away from the circus in which we die for the entertainment and profit of the people who have betrayed us into the certainty of this and done nothing except make it more certain and worse.
It is OUR sorrow that blinds us and that politicians of evil guile exploit this day without remorse or compassion. If we refrain THEY do not and ooze into our sympathies in such a way that the real problems and the
future victims will never stop.

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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
14. Agreed
The best way to honor those who were killed, injured, or those who have loved ones who were killed or injured, is to stay vocal and engaged.
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
15. Our bad politics was responsible for this attack
It's an insult to those who died to ignore that fact.

I refuse to be silent.
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. Yes
If we are silent again, if we learned NOTHING from the last four years, we are no better than them.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
16. Correct
I was thinking of a way to say this, and you've got it. Such a pledge would be another one-sided exercise that results in more innocent people dead, further domestic plunder, continued erosion of Constitutional Rights, increased hatred for America, and hence, increased Anti-American terrorism, and on and on and on and on.

Bush has and will continue to use terror to advance his POLITICS, so we must counter him POLITICALLY.

All I can remember is Daschle "standing shoulder to shoulder" with Bush after 9-11. Now where is that spineless pol? Gone.

Fool me once ...
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
17. Thank you! Beautifully stated.
I don't like that politicizing this tragedy is considered by some to be looking for political gain. This is not a game. I'm not trying to remove BushCo from office so I can declare "I win!" I'm trying to help save our planet from the very real possibility of total anhillation at the hands of a few awful people. I am politicizing this because it is political, and it can and will affect every damn human being on this planet. Bush will use this to further his nefarious agenda, and if we care about the people of this planet (including and especially those who are grieving loved ones, caring for the injured, or injured themselves) we need to stop him and his little lapdog Blair before it's too late.
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CrazyForKucinich Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
18. Exactly
Every second counts. Tony Blair does not deserve a second off...especially one second of today.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
20. My sentiments exactly!
:applause:
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
21. Good post
and I agree totally.

If there ever was not a time for silence, that time has come.
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goodboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
22.  yup. (nt)
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
23. How can you pledge anything until ya know the FACTS?
Al-Queda? IRA? Andorrans? Anarchists? Football hooligans? Eric Rudolph?

if the motive for the attack is political, consider the issue politicized.

Right wingers didn't want to politicize the Oklahoma City bombing, or the Olympic Park bombing (our domestic terrorists), and Dems gave them a free pass. Fact is, those attacks WERE politically motivated.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. You forgot CIA. nt
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
24. The problem I have
is that when we're silent it's seen as agreement with Bush and his actions - the very actions that make us hated in the Islamic world and that lead to these terrorist attacks in the first place. Also, it plays into this idea that to speak out against Bush and his actions is unpatriotic, or worse, as has been spun more recently, even treasonous.

I feel for the people of London, truly. I will donate money to an aid agency that becomes involved in helping the people hurt by this tragedy. I cried when I learned about it and continue to be shaken. The people of London absolutely are in my thoughts and have my support.

But Bush still doesn't have my support and won't have my support, and it's important to emphasize that we can support the people of London, empathize with them, care about what's happening, and disagree completely with Bush and see how his actions are what cause these tragedies to happen.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
25. Exactly
We all know who is ultimately responsible for this. And it isn't the terrorists. This is a direct result (presumable) of Bush's policies. It is only a matter of time before it happens.

A wild thought- they only announced the Olympics yesterday- could it be realted???
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. I heard the French were pretty pissed off....
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. I was thinking more like
It was someone who wanted to someone to cancel the Games but I doubt it really because they are still a long way off. It was a silly thought.
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Serial Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
26. You are right ...
We need to talk about the politics of this world that cause hate ... we complained the media wasn't doing their job for the past 5 years on exposing dubya and his agenda, but maybe we weren't talking enough about it to let them know that at least 50% of the US WANTS to hear the truth!

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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
27. I agree with you. -nt-
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
28. I also pledge to not take the pledge!
If anyone thinks BushCo isn't meeting right this very minute to figure out how to benefit from this, I've got some land in central Fla I'd like to sell'em. If we let up at all, they'll have framed us and the issues in a way that will be disasterous for us and advantageous for them.

If you lay down in front of a door, don't be surprised if someone uses you as a doormat.

or as Ben Franklin said:

Make yourself a sheep and the wolves will eat you.
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Tommymac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
29. Agreed.
We cannot sit back and let events take their coarse.

We CAN grieve, and send our best wishes and thoughts and (agnostic in my case) prayers to those who have suffered. To London today, but let us not forget the innocents in Bahgdad and a hundred other towns across the war ravaged country of Iraq every day.

We cannot be silent - we must probe and question in a reasonable way...and we must also discuss 'unreasonable' topics too...if only to use them as mirrors to help clarify reality.

Only through reasoned discoarse can we keep the Light of Liberty shining...and dissent and differing views are a vital part of this discussion.


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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
30. Crucial Dems not roll over again in the face of tragedy...................
We got sucker punched big time post 9/11. We better have learned our lesson.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
33. I get the message from my government to shut up far too often.
I'm sure as hell not going to.

At the same time, my heart is breaking. God keep London.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
35. How about you back off for one fucking day?
Is that too much to ask?

For the families who are grieving? Can you take their feelings into consideration for ONE FUKCING DAY?

Shit.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. redqueen, with all due respect, the families who are grieiving
are probably not checking into DU today. Why must we all be on the same page emotionally today? Attacks like this provoke a variety of emotions: terror, anger, horror, sadness. The people who are feeling sorrow seem to be having difficulty tolerating the people who feel anger. I don't know why.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. right, we're all feeling
a mixture of anger, sorrow and fear. So can we allow for diverse reactions and coping mechanisms, since we don't all process things the same way?

After the extremist political manipulations we have endured as a nation ever since the 9-11 tragedy, there are plenty of good reasons not to "back off" from discussing this event now. Those who are uncomfortable with it don't have to pay attention. But there's NO logical reason to disparage those who DO want to discuss it civilly--this is just displaced anger and frustration. Consider that it may be MORE appropriate to direct the anger where it really belongs than to vent it on friends. Misplaced criticism comes from a downtrodden mentality. Easier to whip up on somebody close by in the trenches for some vague infraction than to tackle the real big ugly monster out there.
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GeekMonkey Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. we owe it to the familes to NOT back off
backing off allows the murderers to spin and frame the issue to support MORE killing

backing off will cost MORE lives

backing off is a VERY VERY VERY disrespectful thing to do to the familes affected by this tragedy
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #38
57. Thanks geekmonkey
You really get it. Appreciate your thoughts, and welcome to DU! :-)
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. How long after 9/11 was the Patriot Act passed?
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 11:45 AM by kgfnally
How long is the Act itself?

Could they possibly have been waiting for a politically oppotune moment to pass the thing?

That's why you're seeing this. We know they'll do it again, given half the chance. Someone on another thread made a point: now there will be little to no talk at G8 about Africa, the environment, or other issues. Now, it'll probably be all terra.

Is it too much to presume our top politicians are going to use this incident for- gasp!!- political purposes? I think not. I think there are already people in Washington who shed a few tears and then got to the important business of making sure they "spin this for the president". Blair's handlers are even now crafting response after response to question after question, and you know a set of those conflate with Iraq, 9/11, the whole nine yards.

I think it would be foolish to ignore the political implicaions of their response to this bombing. Yes, we should grieve, but... we should also be using our heads, even now.

Above all, look for someone to benefit from this, or try to. You already know they will.

MAJOR IMPORTANT EDIT: CBS just said terror will "likely advance up the list" or some such at the G-8 summit, presumably gaining a greater parity with topics such as Africa and the environment, and the reporter specifically mentioned the war in Iraq, and nukes from Iran and North Korea. So, * and Blair just got what they wanted. People are- once again- reminded of terror, with very convienient timing.

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Tommymac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. Sure we can...
But will that really help the next set of families tomorrow? (And there will be some tomorrow ...in Iraq...in Africa...somewhere)

We are all grieving...but unfortunately the world does not stop spinning; and we must continue to discuss events and put pressure on our 'leaders' to stop the madness so that maybe one tomorrow will not bring us a new set of victoms to grieve for.
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CitrusLib Donating Member (748 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. Respectfully, Redqueen, I think your request is a tad misquided.
As someone who lost, not one, not two, but three people on 9/11, I can tell you first hand it is entirely possible to feel grief, show compassion, offer prayers and question the Powers That Be.

Back off for the families? No. Never. It's FOR the families that we should hold our leaders accountable for what they say, what they do and how they twist events to their own evil purposes.

Backing off is a huge mistake and a disservice to those who have suffered or sacrificed.

I can appreciate you are a very emotional person and I applaud your efforts to think of the victims, but there's a larger picture here that includes not only them, but Bush and Blair.

Peace.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Well said.
:toast:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. They passed the Patriot Act within hours, under the cover of anthrax and
with 9/11's victims still lying in a burning heap.

I grieve for the victims with all my heart, and pray for them with all my soul, but I also get on my knees and pray that we don't get fooled again.
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FredStembottom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
37. In America, we speak.
We think.

We take decisions right down at our level.

There _never_ comes a day when we let the government freewheel along without our advice and consent.

World shaking tragedies and decisions to go to war are not excepted!

Americans must re-learn that our function does not end on election day. That is only the beginning of our oversight of our government. Each day and the events within them require us to monitor our government, discuss the very same issues at the very same time as our government and decide for ourselves if it is acting in accordance with our wishes.

There is no day when "we the people" do not speak!
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Tommymac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. Well said. nt
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
42. Lets look at the facts
4 bomgings happened during rush hour on the central london area transport
(think manhattan).

2 bombings happened on tube trains, 2 near kings cross which
is a large regular rail train station like grand central, and commuters
change on to underground transport for the city-portion of their journey.

1 bombing happened outside liverpool street towards aldgate. This is
right under "bishopsgate street" and is dead center in the city of london
sorta like having a number 4 subway train blow up between wall street
and bowling green on the NYC system.

The 4th was timed later, probably because they thought the tube network
would be stopped from the earlier attacks. Russel square is a media
conglomerate place and has some business social clubs for the upper
class (read: white).

So the attacks all happened on the north london banking/finance media
stalking ground.

They all happened when the police went away to scotland to defend the
bush criminals... using the predictability of the police focus on
the dear leaders to create an opening.

They did NOT attack the government of britain. They did not attack
major tourists areas. THey did not attack canary wharf. AQ is
usually very direct in the omens it sends by its target selections.
They did not attack the monarchy.

The odd one out, in my mind is edgeware road.? Perhaps they were
intending the train to have travelled more in to the city of london
before that one went off? The american banks are mostly "canary
wharf" so this attack was on the british finance/media.

Many of y'all might not be familiar with the locations, so i tell
you what i know, having travelled and worked around these places so
that you have some more details to consider.

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FredStembottom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Thank you!
Very insightful and helpful.

I hadn't stopped to remember that AQ always sends an evil "thought for the day" with it's choice of locations.

This should help us parse out whether this really was AQ.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
49. I can't "take the pledge," either, and you outlined

the reasons quite well.

I can grieve for London and be angry and wary all at the same time.
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. Yes, sorrow and anger
are not opposing emotions.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
50. AS IF Bush and his enablers WON'T politicize the attacks!!!!
Who would be foolish enough to believe the GOP won't use this tragedy shamelessly to terrify people into doing what they want? This must be fought.

The grief I feel for the victims and their loved ones and all those who now must live in more fear every day has nothing to do with politics. My fury at the US and UK poliicians that brought us all to this sorry state for their greed is a separate issue. They MUST be held accountable.

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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
51. I will NOT let them silence me! Enough is enough. They've had their way
for far too long and look at the consequences! While my sympathies go out to those hurt and killed in London; it's because I care that I feel I must speak out.

Frankly, we all owe it to everyone killed on 9/11, in Iraq, in Spain and now in London to speak out. Because make no mistake...* & Co WILL use this event BIG TIME for their own diabolical purposes. We must not let them get away with it!

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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
52. Ding Ding Ding - We have a winner.
Funny thing is that it IS a politcal issue. Hard not to.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
54. People Need To Watch What They Say. Especially Now. This Changes
Everything.

People Need To Watch What They Say.
Especially Now.
This Changes Everything.

People Need To Watch What They Say.
Especially Now.

This Changes Everything.

;)
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Has this warning replaced the news crawl
running across the bottom of the FAUX screen? I'm boycotting, but I wouldn't be surprised.
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. delete
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 08:21 PM by senseandsensibility
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:27 PM
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58. Yes the world needs DU at its emotional and reactionary best! (nt)
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friesianrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
59. Me either...
Telling the truth about why this happened is NOT politicizing this.
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