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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:46 AM
Original message
Yet when 40+ Iraqis are killed, when 100s+ Iraqis are wounded, no DUer
calls for a "moratorium" of political discussion on a political discussion board.

Interesting.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. Good point......
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. I don't recognize any moratorium, bu$h has made terrorism political
bu$h and how he will play this are fair game.
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justinsb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. And we know who is responsible for those attacks
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. or on 9/11 for that matter
I agree; it's ridiculous.

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true_notes Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
5. No that's a great point...
Actually made my hand to my chin and look up for ideas to justify it. They are going through what happened in London 2 sometimes 3 times a day in multiple cities! Not only that they are putting up with gruesome living conditions, along with an omnipresent insurgency that is willing to kill anyone who disagrees to disagree.

Westerners are a strange breed, dont you agree?
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dpibel Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
59. Don't forget the omnipresent occupation
They've been known to be willing to kill people, too.

In far greater numbers than the omnipresent insurgency.
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
6. I sent a msg to Springer about that. Not to minimize what happened,
but this happens daily in Iraq. They are people trying to live their lives and go to work daily. We don't even hear about it anymore.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
7. Correct n/t
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tyedyeto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
8. Thank you Lynn
I have just been reading and lurking this morning. I have had some of those same thoughts. You said it much better than I could have.

This is a discussion board and no one (other than Skinner since he owns the place) should be telling anyone else what they can or cannot discuss.
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. Thank you, Lynn
As usual you have something very salient to add. You are quite correct, any loss of life anywhere, is equally obscene. We honor them all by continuing our work here, trying to stop the killing everywhere.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
10. Exactly. It's obscene.
I mean, Iraqis are being killed DAILY. Every single FREAKING DAY in violent attacks.

:cry:

I can feel and do feel for both groups of people. It sickens me, all of it.

Enough violence.

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Il_Coniglietto Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. It certainly is.
And the most coverage these attacks ever get is five minutes, if it's a slow news day, or sometimes only a passing mention (complete with fake concern from reporters) that leads into a story about dancing poodles or the testimony of some witness in a trial.

It's digusting. Iraqi lives are simply not worth the same, they are expendable in the "war on terror."
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. That's certainly the message we get, isn't it?
Of course I have a mother in law who was sending around emails a couple of years back, right before the war started, advocating nuking the entire region.

I wept. Jesus wept. HOW can any human being be so cold and callous as to wish wide-scale deaths of people who never did anything to them? HOW? I lost any tiny bit of respect I had for that woman that day. She has no respect for humanity and unfortunately there are too many other Americans like her.

:cry:
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. My sister-in-law said the same to me back in summer '03; "We should
just nuke them all".

Not spoken to her since, and won't. I don't want to be on speaking terms with anyone who advocates mass genocide.
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Theres-a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
41. Someone I worked with said the same thing
I'm so glad I have today off.I can't stomach alot of the alk I hear at work.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #10
37. Which is it?
Foreign fighters or Iraqis blowing up their own kind?
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. By both groups, I meant Londoners and Iraqis.
Is that what you were asking about?
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
11. Amen.
:kick:
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
12. fill me in ... who/where is scalling for a moratorium? (musta missed it)
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Theres-a Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
42. here
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. Thanks. n/t
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
13. Very astute.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
14. Didn't you stop what you were doing on 9/11? I did. So did everyone
around me. And we were not in the USA.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. 1. No. 2. Do you stop every week when 40+ Iraqis are killed in a day?
No, didn't think you did.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #22
35. Oh yes I did. I stopped and thought when Iraq was invaded. And
hoped for as few victims as possible. When I read Woodward's book on how Rumsfield botched the planning of the war I became enraged. I stop and think every day about Iraqis when the suicide missions began. I also stopped and though when Saddam Hussein was in power too (including under sanctions and at war).

I think the moment a nation becomes traumatized..we owe support. And we should look into the truths behind the terrorism. And to me - neocons are the most dangerous people around. They will create more terrorism - they will create it out of liberals and moderates around the globe with their bullying and piss drinking. And I fight that every day.

There are people who will be on these boards who will have been traumatized - and the way to help - if you care - is to not deny them their experience. Denying people their traumas is how hegemony & elitism works. It plays into the hands of the evil ones. The evil ones in Washington and the evil ones around the world. There are plenty to go around. One victim does not cancel out another. There is no proper order in the line up. You go with what you feel. Chances are there are not too many Iraqis on this board. We know there are brits. Let's use our ability to be discerning to not pick and choose. Today - Britain is in great pain. Let us discuss how they & we can all learn from it. And what we can learn.



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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #35
39.  I hope you stop everything you're doing every week
to mourn the Iraqi victims. And I'm sure the victims do appreciate your hope for as few victims as possible.



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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
15. Well said
That was what I was trying to convey in my thread a bit earlier.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
16. And they did no harm to us whatsoever.
:cry: I am sickened and saddened and angry at the violence waged upon innocent people. :grr:
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. How many died in Afghanistan the other day when we accidently bombed
the wrong place. Ooopps. I am sick and angry about London, but every life is important. We say it, but we don't mean it. I think the people in London can blame us for what they are going through.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
69. "Accidently"? I don't think it was an accident at all.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
17. Bravo, Lynn. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
20. ain't that the truth. n/t
-
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
23. I understand your point but I also want to point out that
it is not as if Iraq and what happens here does not take up a LARGE portion of the daily discussion here.

I have to say, that I think DUers as a group are VERY aware and VERY sympathetic to the plight of the Iraqi people.

The saddest part of all of this is that we here of people dying in Iraq EVERY DAY. We discuss it EVERY DAY, and work to try and end it EVERY DAY.
A fresh attack, in a different city and country is a novelty that is bound to attract more attention, at least initially. I disagree with a "moratorium" on other topics, but I do understand why it seems like it's a "bigger deal" than the ongoing (and no end in sight) horror show that is Iraq.

It's just sad all around.

:cry:
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Serial Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
24. I feel the same ... the world should mourn for them equally,
if not more because the "coalition" has caused a lot of their suffering!

:cry: for ALL in London, in Iraq, in Darfur, and all places where people kill other people for what?
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rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
25. kick. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
28. You're absolutely right
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Tommymac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
29. Way to provoke thought.
Your point is well made. Thank you for adding this dose of needed reality to today's discussions. Recommended and kicked.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
31. The problem is not that they do not call a moratorium
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 09:25 AM by Mass
It is that too many people here logically care about the US military deaths, but strictly ignore Iraqi deaths as if they did not matter.

This has struck me more than once.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
32. Absolutely right, Lynn. To hell with PC and racism.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
33. To Be Perfectly Clear, Ms. Dem
What has been acted against are wild speculations, sourced in some instances to things like "prisonplanet", alleging English security services contrived this attack; claims that this was contrived by Rove in order to get his name off the front pages, and similar things, as well as the usual actions against people making personal attacks against those who disagree with them. It does not seem anyone is against discussion of political consequences or underpinnings of the event, and certainly no action has been taken such comments.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #33
62. And if we want to be 100% callous about this
the reason such things (conspiracies, 'Charles Clarke did it', they weren't innocents anyway) should not be discussed in the immediate aftermath of a tradgedy such as this (and that it was, however many such tragedies Iraq experiences every day) is because it is politically foolish to do so - to the world outside, one appears a lunatic or at least deviod of some crucial aspect of humanity. This may or may not be fair, and we can be unhappy about it, but if we want to play realpolitik we may as well play to win. And DU cannot have it both ways - every day I read posts on here about DU's relevance in the wider political community. We are now seeting up an activist network, and a very good thing too. But if DU wants to play such a role, thinking about how one's posts here will be percieved by those in the wider political milieu becomes a necessity.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
34. exceptionalism
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 09:25 AM by bigtree
I'll bet they forgot to put the attack in perspective with our own government sanctioned barbarism practiced in Iraq and Afghanistan by our misguided military.

Besides, "political discussion' is open to broad interpretation.

You can be certain that Bush and his cabal will use every bit of this tragedy to further their ambitions for greed and world conquest. I've learned to never let them take to the pulpit without our being in place to challenge and counter their destructive rhetoric.
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Pawel K Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
36. Iraqis aren't whiteish
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 09:30 AM by Pawel K
My deepest sympathy goes to people in London, I wouldn't want to be in that city right now. But by the same token I wouldn't want to be in Iraq right now.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #36
63. Perhaps you've never met an Iraqi
Their skin color can be as "white" as the majority on this board. Guess what? Some EVEN HAVE BLUE, GREEN, or HAZEL EYES!!! It's NOT about their pysical characteristics. It IS about who is considered "white" in American culture. :eyes:
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Pawel K Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #63
67. Well, exactly
hance why I said whiteish, not white. This happens in Spain, London, or in any western part of the world and its a global tragedy; happens in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lybia, or anyother middle eastern country and it gets 5 minutes of air time and maybe a small blurb in the newspapers.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. I'm sorry Pawel K
I'm more than a bit upset these days and my snarkiness was uncalled for.
Please accept my apologies.
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Pawel K Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. No problem
I should have put it a little differently anyway.
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sunnystarr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
40. That's exactly what I was thinking when I watched the news
this morning. It's huge news in London when 40+ lives are lost and hundreds injured. The western world cares little about how many innocent Iraqi's are killed. Maybe it's because our coalition forces and hired contractors do so much of this killing.

Some would say well the war is in Iraq and that's to be expected in a time of war. Well the UK is part of it and shouldn't be surprised to find some attacks on their soil ... just as we here shouldn't be surprised when it happens.

But the fact remains that there is something common in human nature that places more value on lives that are the same our own. And that's sad. I wouldn't say though that it's racist per se. I think it stems from the concept of family. First we're glad that it's not someone in our family, then our neighborhood, our city, state, and finally country. Within that structure lies race. First we're glad it wasn't someone from our own race ergo family, etc. As humans we just haven't arrived at a global feeling of family and its extension.

In a religious sense we haven't reached the point of recognizing that we are all God's children. At least not more than on an idealistic level. Once it reaches death and survival, the "family" mindset is the operative human behavior pattern.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
43. Well, a lot of DUers are from London
or have lived in London or have friends and family in that city.

In other words, this struck closer to home.

I think it is that reason, moreso than anything else that has caused the reaction today
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
44. Yeah, but these were white people who got killed
So, its different, see?
:eyes:

I don't understand why people think we can start a war, an unprovoked invasion on another country, and act like dumbstruck idiots when they fight back.

I really dont' get it.
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Tommymac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #44
52. Because to most people it still is not a real war...
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 10:06 AM by Tommymac
They are sheltered from it by the selective silence of the MSM. They are distracted, coddled, and encouraged to go about thier daily lives, assured that the 'Government" is handling things.

I truly believe most people, when confronted by this thread's op, will stop and reflect...and realize what it means. That most of us are not racists, or sadistic war lovers.

I blame this reaction on our Societal attitudes we unconsciously have been subjected to...we are all products of the TV/Video Game/Mass Media upbringing most have had. Reality is the unpaid bill sitting on the table, the car that needs brakes in the garage, the sick child who is spitting up on the carpet...Reality is not some far away country that we don't understand, that is simply electrons spinning across a glass tube, white background noise for our everyday issues.

Until the MSM covers the war in Iraq as it should, shows the reality that those folks over there are really the same as us, actually educates us in a truly impartial way; people will react this way. But of coarse, the MSM has never done that until forced too; it was the same in Vietnam 1965; it was the same in Cambodia in the 70's and 80's; it was the same in Rwanda in the 90's; it was the same in a hundred different spots across the globe in the last 50 years.



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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. Were I to hear of an attack in Prague, I would be far more upset
than if I were to hear of an attack in Beograd.

I'd also be more upset at an attack in Nogales than in the federal district.

I've been to the first of each duple of places, and/or know people there; I haven't been to the second. I'm more upset at London than Baghdad, esp. since Baghdad is a sort of war zone but London isn't. I figure that's not an uncommonly shared attitude here.

Also, in Baghdad, I want to assume that many of the civilians are bystanders; in London, I assume they are the targets. To the extent I think that jihadis or ideologs are targetting civilians, my reactions are about the same.

But I think the primary reason has to do with the relative paucity of Iraqi residents on this board, and the fact that Londoners have posted here already today.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. So, no recognition that if you shoot at someone, they may shoot back?
I continue to be amazed.

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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
45. THANK YOU!
WE NEED TO TREAT LIFE EQUALLY.

This is a post I made only minutes before seeing this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
46. I hadn't come across that
thread yet.

There is no better time for "political discussion"..this all happened because of something most of us were trying to prevent.

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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
48. Isn't it, though?
How do you stop attacks without discussing the reasons they occur?

This in no way is a reflection of lack of sympathy. Rather, it is not SELECTIVE sympathy.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
49. What bothers me even more
Is the thought that this can be used as the justification to attack more ME people as the terrorist threat. The usual fearmongering reduces the humanity of the people of the ME to little more than bin Ladens or Saddams.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
50. Outside of direct U.S. Military Operations, why should I care
when people blow up their friends and neighbors? It seems kind of foolish to me to kill the very people that might actually help you (as an insurgent) fight the invaders. Instead, they simply cut down on traffic and prop up local cleaning and painting companies.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #50
64. Once it gets to YOUR neighborhood
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 07:46 PM by Karenina
COMING SOON (check your local listings), perhaps we can talk.
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Monkie Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
51. i'll just "me too" instead of getting another post deleted
and i'm a UK citizen,whatever thats worth in this case ;)
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Talismom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
53. Thankyou Lynn, your'e right!
There's been this air of unreality, with life going on like normal while hundreds of innocent civilians are killed by our govts. actions and I've found it so oppressive! Amy Goodman interviewed a retired MP, Tony Ben, this morning and I was so touched when he went out of his way to say something like, "Sure, I feel for the innocent civilians in London...and Madrid and New York. But I also feel for the innocents in Iraq and Palestine and Afganistan who are dying every day." I felt myself breathe a sigh of relief to hear an expression of real human decency...as though it's becoming more and more rare...
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KelleyKramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
55. Thats the first thing I thought of

Not necessarily the DU discussion part, but that there are bombs like this going off every single day in Iraq.

And all these right-wing talking heads try to say 'Ohh, everything is just Great in Iraq'.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
57. Deleted message
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
58. Indeed, and no DU'er blamed the victims either or felt they deserved it(nt
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
60. Not only that - If someone were posting from Iraq
I would expect they would hope for political discussions.

"Security incidents" in Iraq, July 6

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Water Crisis in Baghdad

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

--------

I rather resent the idea that we are only allowed to assume/discuss that the London incident was done by Middle East terrorists as opposed to our own home-grown variety.


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Tommymac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Thanks for the links. nt
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
65. Who called for this moratorium?
I missed all this.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
66. A very sad commentary indeed! n/t
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 07:58 PM by Tinoire
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
68. Precisely. It needs to be said, nt
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