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Does this really have ANYTHING to do with religion.. ?

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praxiz Donating Member (570 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:38 AM
Original message
Does this really have ANYTHING to do with religion.. ?

My general impression on the war on terrorism is that Bush is on a "crusade" and the terrorists are on a Jihad against the "Jewish controlled western goverment".

People I respect and listen to, sometimes say that this is ALL about religion.

But does this really have ANYTHING to do with religion?

Doesn't this basically just boil down to them wanting us to leave them alone, and vice versa?

I've always thought that the citizens of London are among the most religiously diverse group of people of any major capital in the world, with large indian, pakistani and african population. Hindus, muslims, christians, protestants, jews and catholics living peacefully together and actually being world-known for being the most polite people in the world.

I personally think that this attack against London has about as much to do with islam , as the KKK lynching of black people has to do with catholosism.

That's just my opinion though, I might have lost my mind in this heat.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. No. Has nothing to do with religion.
I agree with your question that they want us to leave them alone.
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. I don't think it has anything to do with religion in the minds of the
planners and ringleaders, no matter which side you are talking about. But they have figured out that religion is a very useful tool in order to get the popular support they need to carry out whatever their real plans are.
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. POST OF THE DAY AWARD!
Right on Bro!

Religion can be used to motivate those with no other ambitions in life.

I think the ring leaders use religion when it suits them, and then will twist it once they are in power anyway they wish to get what they want from their people.
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. Gee, thanks!
Sadly, I guess this has been going on since the dawn of time. Ever since a couple enterprising folks came up with competing religious systems, there have always been those who sincerely wanted to believe in a higher truth or higher purpose, and there have always been those who instantly recognized how this desire could be manipulated for their own benefit.

I once was so naive that I thought mankind had gotten beyond all of this. I remember studying the Crusades and various other religious wars in history classes and thinking it was a good thing we had finally learned from our mistakes. No, the world was just in a temporary lull, and I was still too young and uninformed to know better.
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. The problem is
the nutcases at both ends have politiced their religious views.
Fanatics are fanatics-it doesn't matter whether they are leftists or rightists.
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Beaver Tail Donating Member (903 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
4. To us lowly peons it is about religion
But in the grand scheme of things it is about selfish power and control. Religion is only a tool to achieve a political agenda and those of us who are not aware of this fall for the religious aspect hook, line and sinker.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. Yes, it really is about religion.
Faith allows people to believe stupid things. It lets them justify vicious bombings. It lets them believe that those with diferent religious belief are somehow guilty, or at least, not sanctified. It lets them think that Israel is a major issue, because of the religious attachments to that conflict. It lets them believe that one of the most corrupt presidents in history is a good leader because he is "one of them."
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Beaver Tail Donating Member (903 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Those pulling the strings are not religious people
It is these people who have control and as mentioned before they are using religion as a Tool.

Tanyev hit it on the head when he said they have figured out that religion is a very useful tool in order to get the popular support. This sums it up exactly. This is also how Bush gets control as well. It is part of the neocon agenda to use religion as a tool for controlling the masses... just like Islamic Extremist.

To the general masses they THINK it is about religion. The truth is it is about power and control.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Put up the tinfoil hat. Bush & Osama aren't brilliant supervillains.
They're the products of their culture. To think that Bush somehow rises above the intellectual milieux and cynically drives it is to credit him with far more intelligence than he has. People like Rove are quite adept at channeling it. But even Rove is no genius who sets it aside to create some uberphilosophy, but just a modern snake oil salesman.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. Read up on Strauss.
It is certainly not tinfoil hat to note that the neo-cons, while not religious themselves, believe in using religion to control the masses. You are showing an extraordinary level of arrogance given your ignorance on the subject.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
7. Just remember that Mohammed Atta was a whoring, pork eating,
coke snorter and we were told he did 911 for his Islamic beliefs.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I've always wondered about that
When I read that the 9-11 hijackers were drinking at a strip club shortly before the attacks it really puzzled me. That doesn't indicate a lot of religious fervor. Either they were so certain that the act they were about to commit would be so pleasing to Allah that those transgressions would be overlooked or they were never good Muslims at all. If the second case was true, then how were they persuaded to off themselves like that? I mean, at least some of them had to know that would be the end result of the plan.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. You think every fundie found in bed with a tart is therefore not faithful?
That's a pretty naive view of both the psychology and practice of religion.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Give me a break. Most fundies hide in a closet. Atta was Out There openly
living that lifestyle. If you believe he was a "fundie" I have a bridge about 50 miles south of here to sell you.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Come south of the border, and I'll show you many fundies doing the same.
This is simple psychology. Religious constraints on behavior are greatest when the believer is at home, in the presence of family or religious leaders. They're lowest when people are in foreign lands. Every dive just south of the Mexican border has its share of fundies, Mormons, and other religious bozos who are, for that weekend, cutting loose. On top of that, there is the psychology of martyrdom. When someone is certain that they have moved from the set of ordinary believers, into the set of martyrs who are special to god, it's quite easy to think a few venalities aren't going to count for much in the larger picture, i.e., that the normal rules don't apply.

It is naive of human psychology to say that Atta's behavior in Miami was inconsistent with his being a religious fanatic. Try selling your bridge to others who haven't observed the religious in action. Those of us who know the routine aren't buying.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
13. Well
the KKK hated Catholics. So your example surely doesn't support your premise. And you might want to learn more about what the war is about: read either (or both) "Through Our Enemies' Eyes," or "Imperial Hubris."
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. yes and no
the kkk had real political power in the south for a short time.

i think it's one of those things that weaves back and forth between the two.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
16. Religion is a good excuse for violence.
But history shows there are usually other reasons behind wars & terrorism. The Crusades gave the younger sons of European nobility a chance to carve out their own kingdoms. Later, some European rulers were more interested in siezing rich Church properties than supporting their Protestant faith--not that the Catholic rulers were only interested in defending their Faith.

And here's another reminder that the Klan hated Catholics & Jews--not just African Americans.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Religion mixes with secular reasons, but is still a reason on its own.
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Tommymac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
17. Religion is being used to drill an Oil well...
or should I say try to wrest control of one.

In today's world, with peak oil looming, it IS all about the oil.

Until we wean ourselves from this addiction we will continue to suffer the petroleum dt's.
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
20. The KKK is a christian outfit.
Many are very sincere about their Christian beliefs and practices. I suppose you would have to carve up the group of "All Christians" to single out those who are not racist and bigoted.

There is a large portion of the xtian community that is precisely this way however.
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RedCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
22. Religion is a powerful political tool!
It should have stayed separated from state. When it doesn't, fanaticism inevitably rears its ugly head and gets uglier with each passing moment.

Thoughts are easier to control. Explanations are rendered absurd and even convincing arguments have ways of being concealed.

So let's separate the two. Leave the emperor naked for full public viewing sans demagoguery.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
23. No, not at all
It's about economics, the shrinking global system,the spreading Western monoculture, overpopulation, inaccessible resources, racism, elites setting us all against each other and not them, and so much more...
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
24. It's fundamentally nationalistic with a religious flavor
This is not entirely about leaving the Muslim world alone. This is about who controls the Middle East. Those who want us out of the Middle East have a point....but let's not call them freedom fighters or democrats. They want to install their own brand of occupation with is different from colonialism and different from Ba'athism but is still fundamentally opression.
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