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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:35 AM
Original message
A suggestion for Muslims
Get together large groups of fellow Muslims quickly and publicly demonstrate AGAINST the attacks perpetrated today. The larger the group the better. Do so in as large a public square as possible. I suggest this for your benefit as there are violent people who have taken over the worldview of your religion. This is the only way you can take it back.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. yeah...the christians should have thought of this after OKC...
except the ones i knew were too busy blaming muslims.
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DFWdem Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. Big difference in motives
McVeigh bombed OKC because of the government's actions at Ruby Ridge and Waco, not because of a christian jihad.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
48. Actually, McVeigh's actions were informed by his involvement in the
Christian Identity movement, which preaches race-hate infused with crackpot religious extremism.

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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Bingo! The only REAL difference is the size/scope/scale of the attacks.
OKC was zilch. It doesn't make it any less wrong but people are more inclined to overlook it anyway.

Besides, they were Christian. They can't do no wrong. :eyes:
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ICantBelieve Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. More died in OKC
right???
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ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
51. I'm not entirely sure but...
I believe McVeigh was an atheist.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. Many if not most Muslims
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 07:44 AM by fujiyama
don't even consider such people that kill civilians like this Muslims.

My Muslim friend once said "whatever religion those people claim they are sure aren't the same religion I am".

I don't expect them to march against something that is outside of their control. You average Muslim has about as much control over these terrorist groups as a Christian DUer has over Pat Robertson and his followers. Islam is a very vast religion. There is no central command.

It is up to Americans to realize that those that commit acts of terror like this don't represent any religion - instead they represent only hatred and extremism and a very small number of fanatics.
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Jara sang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
3. What does their religion have to do with anything?
They don't have to "account" for their religious beliefs because somebody of the same religion perpetrates a horrible crime.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. No. Ann-Thrax Coulter is NOT quivering with rage.
She's having multiple orgasms as we speak. Or what passes for it in that alien physiology of hers.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I was THINKING that...
But I wanted that to be a "serious" post.

I agree with Walt. to say NOTHING is just about the WORST thing Muslims can do. There's going to be PLENTY of "Oh? Islam's a religion of PEACE????? Sure it is, sure, sure......" crackling out of Murka's radio speakers today...
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Do you think they'll refrain from spewing the bile...
...even if Muslims gather million-people marchs in 20 cities around the world?

Nah, me neither.

And my post about Coulter is 100% serious (OK, minus the alien physiology thing). She IS happy about this, you can bet on that.
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Jara sang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
27. Are you out denouncing Bush's policies everyday?
I'm not talking about on a message board. If you are American and aren't out there everyday denouncing him, this means you approve of Bush and his policies? Bullshit.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Anyone has the right to call "bullshit" on assessments one deems
incorrect. I don't need to know anyone to take exception to their beliefs.

I greatly applaud your determination to oppose the injustice perpetrated by our country (the situation is somewhat the same with me, whenever politics come up, there is no holding back for me), but it is a completely different act that you are talking about. I don't know your religion, but do you expect Christians to denounce those killings done by the RW Fundamentalist Christian? Do you expect Jews to protest Israel's policies? The BTK Killer (or whatever his name is) does not represent Christianity, and Israel does not represent Judaism.

If anyone takes a swipe at any Muslim, this Hindu will risk life and limb to fight it. However, I do not expect Muslims to protest the lunatics who kill in the name of misinterpreted religion. That is a lot like people expecting all liberals and socialists to protest the regime in China because they call themselves "Communist".
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ugarte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
4. Can't we ever get past collective guilt?
Crimes have perpetrators. Let's just find the criminals and leave the prejudging to the idiots in the media.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. HEAR! HEAR!
:thumbsup:
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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. I think if the proper Muslim organizations
condemn the attacks (as they have done in Britain) that is enough.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. London has such an ENORMOUS Muslim population.
I'd be surprised if there was much of a backlash against them, since Londoners have accepted Muslims (for the most part) in a way that Americans never have.

Murderers are murderers; because you share a religion with a murderer doesn't mean you should take ANY responsibility for their actions.

I don't think Catholics, for example, had any more responsibility to disavow the IRA than anyone else.
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justinsb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
7. I don't see Christians taking to the streets
to demonstrate against every terrorist attack perpetrated by Bush in Iraq
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YDogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
8. What troubles me ...
... is the seeming increase in the use of terms like "ideology" when describing the differences between "us" and "them" -- regardless of who is speaking. I believe I've heard it from * and Blair recently (perhaps from Blair this morning??).

Sounds like it would be a very short jump to overt references to religious differences / philosophies / etc., and a ratcheting up of anti-Muslim talk by public officials (General Boykin, et al.).

WWIII, anyone?
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Monkie Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
12. Mainstream Muslim groups have condemned terror consistently
Im british and muslims are my brothers and sisters just like every other human being.
I personally believe "we" in the west need to confront the demons of racism that i see as a huge factor in this.
I wonder what reaction we would have seen had we had 6 simultaneous bombings across baghdad today with reports of 2 dead and 100's injured.
or i can just scroll back through LBN and see for myself the difference because thats been the "norm" over there since the invasion.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. I know that, and they did so with a dignity one does not see often
unfortunately, their dignified method of decrying such events allowed the Corporatist Media to blatantly ignore it.

Thusands of Muslims in the streets demanding this stuff stop sends a message. This is all about public perception, and as 2004 should have taught everybody, public perception and the truth have very little in common.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Well said n/t
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Demonaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. countup for message delete..1..2..3..4..6..5
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 08:59 AM by Demonaut
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. ????
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 08:55 AM by meganmonkey
By 'they' do you mean Muslims? 'They' absolutely condemn this violent behavior.

I must be misunderstanding you... :shrug:

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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. I feel sorry for you
I am a Muslim, I not only disapprove of such things, but I am constantly looking for new and powerful ways to oppose terrorists.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
21. Statement from the Muslim Council of Britain
The Muslim Council of Britain utterly condemns the perpetrators of what appears to be a series of coordinated attacks in London this morning that have led to several fatalities and a large number of casualties.

The MCB expresses its deepest sympathy to the families of all the victims of todays tragic events. Our sympathies and our prayers are with the victims, their families and friends.

We extend our support and gratitude to the emergency services, the Police and all the frontline services charged with our collective security.

Yesterday we celebrated as Londoners, euphoric that our great city had secured the London games. Today we watch aghast as we witness a series of brutal attacks upon our capital city. We were together in our celebration; we must remain together in our time of crisis, said Sir Iqbal Sacranie, Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain.

http://www.mcb.org.uk /


And there's a Muslim cleric on Sky TV now, local to the Aldgate explosion, condemning the attacks.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. MAB condemns this also
http://www.mabonline.info/english /

Following early indications that the coordinated blasts in London this morning are likely to have been a coordinated terrorist attack, the Muslim Association of Britain expresses its disgust with the contempt in which the perpetrators appear to hold human life.

Islam holds the sanctity of human life in the highest possible regard and shedding the blood of an innocent person is seen as a crime most heinous and repulsive.

The Muslim Association of Britain calls on Muslims everywhere to be clear and strong in declaring the fundamentals of Islam which emphasise the principles of peace, justice and humanity. It calls also on those living in London and elsewhere to provide all assistance and support requested by the emergency services and to contribute fully towards the smooth and successful progress of their work.
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Demonaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
25. Muslims in Britain are being advised to stay indoors to avoid
possible reprisals, this is from thier clerics in the UK
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alarcojon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
26. Walt, I agree
specifically in the US.

It shouldn't have to be that way, but vast swathes of the American people think Islam is an evil, depraved religion. And many of then won't change their minds about that even if there were huge worldwide peace marches held by Muslims. But maybe, just maybe, many of them will.

It is an unfortunate dynamic, but a very real one. It doesn't help that the media will play clips of some fundamentalist "Muslim" organization "celebrating" these events and ignore all but the most prominent displays of peaceful condemnation of these attacks and of terrorism in general.

Indeed, mainstream Muslim organizations have condemmed and will continue to condemn these barbaric acts, but Joe Six-Pack doesn't know this, and Limpballs, Hannity, and O'Shithead aren't about to tell them.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. I'm glad somebody understands
Muslim leaders have already condemned the attacks, but the Corporatist Media ignores their condemnation.

Thousands of Muslims in the streets screaming their condemnation of the acts cannot be ignored.
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jmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Oh the media would love to cover Muslims screaming in streets
but they don't like covering any peaceful protests. If you look at any protest one anarchist, one person in a costume, one nude person, or one single act of destruction or violence can get more coverage than thousands of peaceful people.
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. hell Run away bride
got more air time then anyone of the Islam faith condemning the attacks.

The media is afraid of Muslims! Afraid that the freepers will boycott them and call em anti-american for pleading their case. It's Bullshit!

My whole point to my argument, With the shrills instilling hate of muslims everyday on the air on the tv in print (Fox, Hannity, Limbaugh Coulter etc). What a muslim condemns, be it a group or a street corner full of them.. gets lost in the act of violence committed by 1.

You want to challenge the discrimination of Muslims in America and abroad, you fight the assholes who are painting them to be terrorists. Who insist we should nuke them. How do you fight hate and fear? By education, how do we do that when the Media almost desires to see them rounded up and placed in Ghettos.

My daughter plays soccer with a little girl Anna, Anna's father is Jordain her mother is American. Sal has been in the US for 17 years! One of the nicest guys you could know. You think anyone else talks to the family besides my husband and I? No.. they avoid them.
The US is his country, yet we treat Muslims, (hell even people who look arab) like they are fresh off the Arab boat.

It's disgusting, I think we have a responsbility to our fellow man to start kicking back. Maybe we just need a few "white" muslims so the news will pay attention.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #33
66. Where did you see Muslim clerics were condeming the attacks
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
29. I disagree
Christian's do not apologize for Christian Collation, or focus on Family. Christian's do not apologize for the Abortion clinic bombings, or the Oklahoma bombings.

Christians didn't apologize for the crusades, or the terrorist that burnt women at the stake (Puritans).

Why should muslims have to apologize for the ignorance of our country. Why is it ok for people like O'Reilly to villanize Muslims and Islam. He does it every day.. to millions of viewers. Limbaugh does it every day over the radio for millions. Hannity and Coulter villanize this religion every day to millions.

Why do they have to apologize for their religion that has been hijacked by extremist. Christians are not apologizing for BushINC hijacking their religion.

We can't ask them to demonstrate against the attacks, when we ourselves have NOT demonstrated for the people of Iraq or any muslim country.

I understand what you are asking, but I believe all that does is have a bunch of muslims in one area denouncing the attacks. Which leaves them vunerable to be attacked by dumb Coulter listeners.
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DFWdem Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. We HAVE demonstrated
"We can't ask them to demonstrate against the attacks, when we ourselves have NOT demonstrated for the people of Iraq or any muslim country."

Did you not notice the anti-war demonstrations in Washington DC in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq? Additionally, there have been several demonstrations since the invasion. Also, to compare Focus on the Family and the Christian Coalition with terrorist bombers is absurd. Certainly the those groups spew ignorant crap when they speak, but all they do is speak. When was the last time you heard of a bombing in which either of those 2 groups claimed responsibility? I'm no fan of the christian right, but I don't see a parallel between them and those who bomb a civilian population. And by the way, the Crusades ended about 1,000 years ago. Think we can move on now?
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. right the run up to the war
It was great.. but where is the voice now?

It is not absurd to compare terrorist with focus on family. .. the connects them is fear and creating Fanatics, which sets aside reason and respect for differing ideas and opinions and forces those to subscribe to their own.

even though a 1,000 years have passed.. Visit the Middle East and tell them 1,000 years have passed.

History is should be our greatest teacher.
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DFWdem Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. True, but...
The manner in which a group attempts to get others to subscribe to their beliefs says alot about the group. There is a big difference between, "You don't agree with us? Okay, we'll shout louder and boycott companies that don't agree with us" versus "You don't agree with us? Okay, we'll set off bombs on your subways and buses."
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. All wars
are a failure of communication and diplomacy. The war on terror, is a fallacy. The more we blow up Iraq the bigger, the more civilians we kill in collateral damage the more we hydra's we create.
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Emerson Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
95. The anti-war demonstrations
were not an apology from the sane christians.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. You didn't read what I posted
Please, point to that section where I said they should apologize.

You can't, because I never said anything about apologizing.

Go back, rethink, and then write a coeherent post that pertains to the original post.
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. I did read it
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 01:05 PM by insane_cratic_gal
I respect your opinion a great deal Walt. I've always paid attention to what you've posted, mostly, I've agreed with you.


By asking them to condemn the attacks on a large street corner is asking them to come out and say "WE DIDN'T DO IT, WE DO NOT AGREE WITH THOSE WHO DID" is apologetic. Why would we ask them to do this? Most sane people know this already.

Who we need to be battling to the Mouth pieces who insist that Islam is a religion of evil and terrorist
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. I'm sorry if you disagree, but if the Muslim community does not do this
it will be all, "Notice that the Muslims didn't say anything after the London attacks" all the time. Count on it. You know and I know that the Muslim community condemns these attacks just as they condemned the 9/11 attacks, but Joe Barcalounger operates under the impression that the Muslim community is silent and through their silence affirms approval of the attacks.

It's through public perception that Bushco is allowed to deceive, and through that deception to win.
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alarcojon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
60. Bingo!
That's the crux of it. People will take the lack of demonstrations as silent approval of these heinous acts. WE know that's bullshit. WE know that only a certain fucked up brand of fundamentalist (I won't even call them Muslims) could approve of the indiscriminate killing and maiming of innocents, some of whom are almost certainly Muslim. WE know that the media won't show a demonstration unless it's large, and prefers to show violent groups burning American flags and calling for Bush's head to showing a large, peaceful protest. And WE know that people of the Muslim faith should not have to speak up against this tragedy, because WE know that the vast majority of them are decent, peace-loving human beings. But WE represent but a small sliver of the depoliticized, whipped into a fear-based frenzy American public.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. WTF are you trying to say?
Your post has aboslutely nothing to do with my original post.

Are you sure you're on the right thread?
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Kraklen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. It has everything to do with your original post.
And you know it.

Who think Islam is somehow responsible for this it's really fucked up.

You'd think we'd have learned that knee jerk Islamophobia doesn't do shit but get a bunch of people killed, but no, we've got to go blaming Islam again.

Here's a crazy fucking idea. How about Americans and Brits march out into the street and condemn the U.S. and British foreign policy that directly lead to this.

Jesus fucking Christ.
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Joj Bush Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. No, your post has NOTHING to do with the original post
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 12:39 PM by Joj Bush
I doubt the bombing would have occurred if the perpetrators were atheist. If a black person who was about to commit a crime became white, it would not change his motives, so your post is nonsense. As Christians should protest would innocents are killed in the name of Christianity, if they have any desire to make their religion look like a good one, Muslims should do the same. If something is done in the name of your religion, you should show what your religion is really about.

Personally I don't think too highly of either religion, and I don't see why would you think we should give Islam a pass when here we constantly criticize Christians, also rightfully, of doing bad things in the name of their religion. It seems you're the one with a relgious bias, whether or not you are religious.
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Kraklen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. This has nothing to fucking do with Islam.
Not anymore than Christianity has to do with Oklahoma city. Are you asking for Christians to go around and apologize for OKC? Of course not.
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Joj Bush Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. McVeigh did not bomb in the name of Xianity
So of course I didn't. Secondly, no one but you has mentioned that anyone should apologize. I don't think he even talked about Xianity that much, if he was one.

Now, sir, would you be so quick to disagree if I said (and I would) that Xians should protest and condemn anti-abortion bombings, if any on such a large scale had happened recently? I doubt you would. We could make up hypothetical analogies all day though. Instead of doing that I'd rather focus on current events that didn't happen many years ago.
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Kraklen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Yeah, and these guys aren't bombing in the name of Islam!
We don't even know who did it, for fucks sake. Assuming that they're muslim they probably did it as a direct result of British fucking policy.

Focusing on current events my ass. You're focusing on skin color and religion.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #58
71. But they try to use Islam...check bin Laden's writings, the writings
of others
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Kraklen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Yeah, and the BTK killer attended church regularly.
Point being?
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #72
78. When people around the world read the writings of the bombers
they see Islam, Allah, etc being used over and over. Do you think this association with Islam perhaps turns people against those who practie Islam.
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #78
94. They see Fox's Islam
The ignorant Islam. Let me give you some examples of lumping people together. Those who practice Christianity burn Women and children and Sons at the stake for being witches.
The Crusades was a war AGAINST muslims lead by christians

Hitler was a Christian

Do you like those labels being stuck to Christians? Even if it's past? BKT was a christian. Andrea Yates who killed all 5 of her children was a Christian too.

KKK was often associated with God fearing Christian church as well.

Allah is not a God separate from your God. They are the same God. Christianity is a derived from Islam. They are from the same tree. It wasn't born here in the US of A. Like it or not Arabs ran around worshiping Jesus (a jew who didn't want a religion raised in his name) before Americans did.


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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #94
103. There are some
errors in your history here. Christianity was started in the first century AD. Islam was started by Mohammed in about the sixth century AD and Islam views Christ as one of its great prophets, along with Abraham and a few others.

I am not lumping people together.

The Crusades were very complex historically aand they were a series of wars fought over certain lands, for power and wealth in the Mideast and I think it is a simplification to write that they were a war against Muslims. Hell, the various Christian factions were fighting among themselves to gain control. You will remember that King Richard was held for ransom by other Europeans while he was fighting over there during one of the later Crusades.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. Eric Rudolph did.
Where was the huge protest by Christians then?
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Joj Bush Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Did he have a strong impact on perceptions of Xians?
I don't really remember. I suppose if he did then they should have protested, but I don't think the effect was that strong, since he was just one Xian killer, as opposed to a large network of Islamic killers. Unless people all over the world perceived a threat from Christianity because of him, there would be little need to stage a huge protest. All the original poster was doing was saying that these events have negatively impacted perceptions of Islam all over the world, and that Muslims as a group, rather than just their leaders, should do something publicly to counteract it.

Seriously, do you think you're more likely to die right now from a Christian terrorist or an Islamic terrorist?

Many leaders of Christian nations are doing very bad things, but the world knows who they are as individuals. The problems with terrorists is that people don't know who they are, and just knows that they're some small percentage of Muslims. But which ones, no one can tell, so it is human nature to be wary of all of them if one does not already know many Muslims. That is, unless one sees a large group of them shouting that this behavior is wrong.

I'm really not trying to measure which religion is having the most negative impact on the world right now, that's not the point. If Christianity disappeared right now, I wouldn't be here, I'd be throwin a huge party.
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Kraklen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #67
82. I'm more likely to die from a Christian terrorist.
But that's beside the point.

"it is human nature to be wary of all of them "

It's also the text book definition of bigotry.
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Joj Bush Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #82
96. Where is this Christian-terrorized nation you inhabit?
If it's bigotry to make a mental image of your enemy based on only general information, then I guess human nature is bigotry. But I doubt there are more than a few in America or Britain who haven't dont that. Anyways it's not quite bigotry, which is defined as "the state of mind of a bigot." A bigot is defined as a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.

If one sees the Koran being interpreted wrongly, without seeing the response of those who interpret it properly, and has a negative view of Islam because of it, that does not yet him make him or her obstinate. Those who are not obstinate, and thus not bigots, could be positively influenced by a noticeable Muslim protest. However, I live in a city and have never seen one. Statements by Muslim leaders do not get reported heavily. Only a protest by masses of Muslims is something that people can actually see or are likely to hear about. They won't get through to the bigots but they will through to most people.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #37
49. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #49
61. PUBLIC PERCEPTION
ALL Negroes are gangstas who carry knives and want to rape white women.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
39. I think we should take a stand together, a stand against all forms,...
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 12:32 PM by Just Me
,...of economic and violent terrorization of innocent people no matter who sponsors such terrorization (individuals, hate groups, governments, religious extremists, corporations, etc.)
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
40. My suggestion
Don't do anything. Don't act, or react, and decide that, right here,
right now, you are willing to put everything down for truth and justice.
To accept jihad in to the depths of ones soul that there is a total
surrender of the world of man for the world of the divine allah.

And in the fire of allah, pray that justice comes, no matter what its
form, to all humanity... and then, in the divine peaceful love of the
lord love all those around you as your brothers and sisters, muslims
and christians, athesists and republicans, fools and wise all part of
gods creation.

There is nothing we can do that God can't do better... and in the
humility of that realization is slavation.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
44. yeh, don't do as most americans have in the face of our own slaughter
of Arab innocents. Don't indiscriminately retaliate with carpet bombing and occupy the homes of your non-Muslim neighbors.

Seriously, Walt. Do you really believe that the world Muslim population is truely represented by the handful of those engaging in wanton violence? Or, is it actually the case that the vast majority of Muslims are not engaged in senseless violence and reprisals and are the true representation of the Muslim nation as a whole? Isn't the perception of Muslims as a violent group a stereotype mostly furthered by those who benefit from the misperception as they seek to justify the assaults on two Muslim nations?

Thoughtful sentiment that needs more thought, I believe.
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LSdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
46. No, a better idea for Muslims is positive community activism/involvement
First of all, no one, especially the media, pays any attention to public demonstrations. Even if demonstrations were a good idea, Islam is a completely decentralized religion which makes a coordinated effort among all Muslims rather difficult.

Second, a better idea, IMO, is for Muslims, like myself, to take a more active role in the community and improve the public's image of Islam through example.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
52. They did this after 9/11 - it just wasnt reported
MANY Muslim clerics condemned the terrorist acts in the past, and are doing so now. Why aren't we seeing it on the news? Simply because they aren't covering it.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. BINGO!
Aand Muslim leaders have alreaddy condemned this attack, yet Joe Barcalounger won't notice it. The only thing Joe Barcalounger will notice is thousands of Muslims in the streets condemning the act.

And the sad fact of the matter is, Joe Barcalounger will be the guy who decides whether or not it's okay to round up Muslims and put them in "detention centers" simply for being Muslims.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #56
65. Only if YOU (collectively)
ALLOW him to.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Biased Liberal Media Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
63. I fear for the Muslims
there's enough ignorance in America to feed an army. The general consensus (online and real life) I get is "all muslims are terrorists". I fear for those in the UK now.

I'm an Agnostic and I stand beside the many innocent Muslims who have to face racism, hatred and nastiness on a daily basis. You have my support.
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Joj Bush Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Yes
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 06:11 PM by Joj Bush
And that's exactly why the original post makes sense. Not only that, it might demoralize the radical ones who think they're doing Islam a great service. And then we'd have fewer attacks which, in turn, would give our leaders fewer opportunities to invade random uninvolved countries.
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philosophie_en_rose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
69. Why should they pander to ignorant bigots?
Why should they be held responsible for extremists that use religion to murder? It's not their burden. They shouldn't have to prove a damned thing.

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. They must PROVE to white Amurikkka
that THEY are the "good ones." :puke: :puke: :puke:
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. They' re a minority in this country and some are fairly obvious
by dress, skin color, accent, etc. I don't consider it pandering, rather it shows intent that they don't agree with these horrible bombings.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. "all the raping of white women that's been going on"??????
What?
I have noticed nothing in the news lately about this, and I am simply not aware of this story. Almost everyone on this planet is aware of what happened in London in the last 24 hours.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Is a black person who rapes someone writing a treatise that he is
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 07:28 PM by barb162
doing it in the name of some religion? Did the BTK write a tome that he was doing it, the murders, in the name of a religion? Take a look at bin Laden's and the writings of other terrorists and like I said, Allah is in just about every second sentence and one of binLaden's main goals is to get the crusaders out of the "land of the holy places" of Islam, aka Saudi Arabia. His writings are filled with the Islamic religion and references to it.
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Kraklen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. And that's got what to do with the price of tea in China?
You're dodging the obvious.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #84
88. I'm not dodging anything.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #84
89. PS I am still trying to figure out what you're writing about when you
refer to all those rapes by black men.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #79
92. What rapes of white women?
What is this fixation on "negroes" raping white women?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. Horrible bombings.
Well don't THAT just beat ALL!!!
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #77
85. and your point is?
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philosophie_en_rose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #73
101. Again, why should they pander to ignorant bigots?
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 09:37 PM by philosophie_en_rose
Who cares if "they" are in the minority? (And assuming that "they" should be treated differently due to skin color is blatantly racist.) They have no more of an obligation to respond to ignorant bigots that assume that all Muslims or Arabs are terrorists than anyone.

Why should they have to show intent that they don't agree with these horrible bombings? Perhaps all of us have an obligation to show compassion and empathy, but why do brown people have more of an obligation?

The expectation that people must answer for those who aren't a "credit to their race" is archaic and racist.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #101
105. I think some minorities are easily identifiable and
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 11:10 PM by barb162
therefore they can be targets by certain people not in that minority. This was shown clearly in various cities after 9/11. Of course there is no duty to respond to bigots. However as the OP wrote, if I may paraphrase and add my own two cents, it might be to their benefit to clearly show they are not with the terrorists. It also might cut down on retaliatory incidents.

No one is saying, I believe, that people must answer for others.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
76. None of this was done by Muslims...
any more than America came into existance by 'christians'
or Hitler did what he did because of Catholics-

Mr.Starr's advice, is good, on the one hand, because it is a form of 'protection'- but on the other hand, it gives creedence to the perverted notion that Muslims are the 'minds' and hearts behind this violence-

And i don't for one second believe that-

any more than i believe we 'went into Iraq and Afganistan'
to make the world a 'safer' place-

MONEY- MONEY- and greed is what has brought this world to the place it is today-

and there is no way out- none, that leaves one to live to 'talk' about it.

We've been raping, pilliaging and killing since time began-
and nothing has changed. Except our willingness to face the truth.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #76
86. "None of this was done by Muslims."
We don't know that just as we don't know the identity of any of the perps yet other than for the written admission that a group took credit for it and the authorities seem to think so far it had certain aspects that lead to mideast connections.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. The only thing we
will EVER know for sure about this, 9/11 etc. is that what was done was done by 'humans'-

makes me really wonder whether the concept of 'higher intelligence' is just another oxymoron.

DON'T believe the media- on ANYTHING. Money is what dictates what 'we' will hear, know, and see-

Independent sources- eyewitness- individuals who actually 'were there' or are a part of an action will speak more truth, than any 'newsmedia' that exists.

Of Course it had 'certian aspects' that 'lead to mideast connections' which lead to corporate connections which lead back to ...? you decide?
i've seen too much to believe the lies
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #90
99. I agree. We literally know just about nothing yet. And we may never
know.Yeah, except humans did it. And it is so early in the investigation
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
80. And a suggestion for you
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 07:40 PM by Vladimir
Islam is not monolithic, so please don't refer to it in a way which implies that it is. Whether discussing propaganda strategies or otherwise.

PS on edit: I'm sorry if that sounded harsh, I'm in a somewhat tetchy mood right now.
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Joj Bush Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. and how did he imply that?
I did not see it.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. When he says
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 07:35 PM by Vladimir
"A suggestion for Muslims... your religion..."

the point is, there is no such thing as "your religion" here - there are a number of different sects and divisions within Islam, rooted in profound historical and theological disputes. Asking Sunnis, for example, to reclaim the Shia interpretation of Islam (we are now talking in the abstract) makes as much sense as asking a Baptist to reclaim Catholicism.
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Joj Bush Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #87
97. I don't think he meant that.
He wasn't saying that there aren't vastly different sects and divisions. I think he was saying on the contrary, that the Koran is interpreted in a very wide range of ways. The people interpreting it in a good way, whichever sects or divisions they are, should make their voice louder than those who interpret it in a bad way. Christians certainly need to start doing that too.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
91. There's nothing wrong with Islam as a religion. I do have to say, though,
that it was nice when white people demonstrated against the lynchings that were going on in the South back during the Civil Rights era.

It's about standing up for what's right, and trying to BREAK the stranglehold of ignorance, folks.

Imagine the message that that would send to the terrorists.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #91
100. ditto
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
98. Where is the absolute proof that Muslims did the bombing?
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 08:33 PM by Bridget Burke
Yes, it's quite probable. But the website claiming responsibility is not very reliable. Some real facts would be useful.

Would you allow non-Muslims to demonstrate? Or must they be isolated--& exposed to attacks by ignorant fools?

What about those of us who want the criminals behind this atrocity apprehended--but do NOT want to support those looking for an excuse for another invasion?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #98
102. There doesn't have to be any
In fact, if Muslims from multiple sects joined together to cndemn the attacks in one huge march, and then it turned out to be domestic terrorists from the U.K., all the better!
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
104. Perception is everything ...
... you are correct the media will ignore most condemnations and will pay attention to only the most dramatic gestures. It works to the advantage of the chimp and his evil cabal to vilify ALL Muslims ----makes it easier to convince the "ignorant" masses that war in predominantly Islamic regions is justified (what ever the reason du jour may be).

I am afraid for the safety of my children as they have an Irish (heritage) mom and an Indian Muslim father -----their names are not reflective of any Anglo heritage.

This furthers my fears for them: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
106. Locking
This discussion, begun with good intentions, has become problematic.
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