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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:50 AM
Original message
Take the Pledge....No Politicking/Manipulating this tragedy just for today
From Brian_Expat's thread:



Brian_Expat (1000+ posts) Thu Jul-07-05 06:30 AM
Original message
A plea from London


Can people please stop manipulating the tragedy here for political gain just for one day?

People are dying in twisted wrecks under London desperate to be rescued. People are dying and shaken all over this city. Please think of them and what they're going through, rather than politics.

Just for today. Please.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Me: I think I can get by without thinking of politics for just one day and concentrate my thoughts on the people of London. Things we say today on DU can certainly show our "insensitivity" and be used against us. I pledge not to discuss the politics of the situation today, in deference to Brian_Expat and other British DUers, and the people of Britain.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'm going to work where I only have ONE BOSS and I know who that
is.

Oh, by the way, politics is at the bottom of this mess. The political agendas of a few men who thought they were smart enough to take over an area of the globe and walk away with it's assets and be called heros while doing so.

Oops, excuse me. Apparently that statement means that I'm an insensitive boor without any sympathy for the victims of these horrific attacks.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. The only thing at the bottom of the mess. . .
. . . are the terrorist nutjobs who attack civilians.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I'm sorry to say mate
that if we think of it only in those terms, there will be more of these attacks soon enough. The perpetrators are sick fuckers, no doubt, but... oh shit, I haven't got the energy, I still can't get through to any of my friends. Fuck fuck fuck.

Peace.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. I think what Vladimire is saying is that we're angry about this.
It's not politicizing to say that this is EXACTLY why we opposed the war in Iraq. This is exactly what we've feared for three years since the madness of invading Iraq in response to 9/11 began to be planned. Instead of destoying al-Qaeda, we've let them run free while giving them and their allies a huge training ground and a huge recruitment center in Iraq.

Early reports seem to indicate that an al-Qaeda associate agency in Europe in taking responsibility for this. I'll be stunned if thre are no connections to people from Iraq in this. It truly is the nexus of world terror now. But it didn't need to be that way.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. Totally understand, but if Americans hadn't kept talking after 911, we
would never have known that 1) the bush** administration had already made plans to start a war thanks to the PNACers. 2) We wouldn't have known that they lied about WMDs, knowingly lied. That info came out after months of 'tin-foil hatters' digging around and coming up with that info. 3) Just too many reasons to enumerate why conversation, (good, bad, or indifferent) are so important right now.

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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
34. How about the folks that are killing Iraqi and Afghan civilians...
...on a daily basis because of the false policies of the NeoCon Junta and their allies in the UK?

How about all of the Americans, Brits, and other nationalities that are continuing to feed the Middle Eastern meat grinder?

Where's your outrage on those issues?
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Don Claybrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. Sorry, but no
I in no way want to lessen the tragedy that this is, to cheapen it with "it's all Bush's fault sort of stuff". And I won't. But I will be considering the political calculus, the possible fallout, and so on, because I'd bet my entire paycheck that this is exactly what GOP operatives are doing right this minute. And they'll exploit it to the maximum extent they're able.

So while I understand the good intentions of the request, I won't be silent about it.

Simultaneously, my thoughts and wishes are with those who are still in the middle of this carnage, and those who will grieve and have to pick up the pieces. This is on a separate track.

Thank you.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
3. The best way to show our compassion is to continue what we do.
I'll say the same thing to you that I just said to someone else who implored us to shut down and shut up.

Tragedy is the only constant in these times. We honor the victims of the war machine by continuing to resist those who create and sustain terrorism.
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
5. Its all politics. I am sorry people are hurt and have died,
We have humanity, we lived through sept11 but lost friends and
family

we also lost our innocence and our trust in government

that is where we are coming from and where you will be eventually


I don't mean to sound crass or harsh, just bringing reality


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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
7. So that we can let the other side
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 07:00 AM by DoYouEverWonder
figure out how to spin this to their advantage? Sorry, no thanks.

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Do You Honestly Think, Ma'am
That accusations this was done by the English or U.S. governments, or personal operatives of the Bush family, or by Freemasons or Israel, or whatnot, do not help the other side?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. Round up the usual suspects I suppose
Since many of us believe that the OSP and/or CIA have been behind most of the previous attacks, it is not unreasonable to question whether or not they have anything to do with this one. Of course, they are never 'directly' involved. That's not how it works. But at the least, it is their money that finances it.




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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. It Is An Extraordinarily Unreasonable Question, Ma'am
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 07:59 AM by The Magistrate
And an extraordinarily unreasonable assumption, the unending repetition of which by some does not raise to the stature of fact....
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. No question
is unreasionable, whatever that is, nor unreasonable.

Everything should be subject to question. And since I have studied this bunch since Watergate, I would say there is enough evidence that points to their involvement in this sort of thing.

Of course, there are plenty of bad people who want to hurt us and many of them for good reason. But who created these people? Where do their weapons come from? Where does the money that supports them come from? BushCo.

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:58 AM
Original message
Nonesense, Ma'am
A great many questions are unreasonable, and even foolish....
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
40. So who do you think did this?
Some guy in cave with a dialysis machine, that we still can't find after 3 years?

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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Probably a dozen healthy guys
with an axe to grind over Iraq. The obvious is sometimes the true.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. Indeed, Gospodin
Its flashes are sometimes blinding....
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #44
72. That silly Occam's Razor thing again...
:sarcasm: by the way
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. The Jihadist Movement, Ma'am
Is real, and deeply rooted. It is never wise to underestimate what can be done by simple methods, and by people who are bold and careless of their lives.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #45
101. Too bad we never did finish the job in Afghanistan
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 12:17 PM by DoYouEverWonder
Instead Bu$h diverted those resources for his boondoggle in Iraq. Now, here we are 3.5 years later and we still haven't found Osama or Mullah Omar or any of the other boogiemen, Afghanistans poppy fields are back on line and the Taliban/al Qaeda seem to be alive and well.

Now tell me again, whose fault are these attacks?

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
renaissanceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #32
51. How is it unreasonable, SIR,
to question your government, especially when it involves life ordeath matters?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. Questioning Your Government Is Not Unreasonable, Sir
It is the duty of every patriot.

Speculation that your government fights both sides of a war, and that all attacks against the people of your country and its allies originate with your government is not reasonable.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #57
68. The thing is friend is that the speculation has been borne out,
Time and again.

Who aided and abetted the rise of bin Laden and Al Qaeda? Who engineered the explosive growth of the driving force behind them, Wahhabism? Who aided the rise of Saddam? Well of course, the American government, and its intelligence operatives in the CIA. If you go back through the postWWII history of the United States, you will see many, many examples of how we did fight both sides of the war, especially in out of the way places like Central and South America, and Afghanistan.

And now, these actions are coming back to haunt us. A man who was once hailed as a bold freedom fighter, a friend of America's high and mighty, an agent of the CIA is now reviled as a terrorist. Yet as they say, once a CIA agent, always a CIA agent.

You think that such speculation is unreasonable, yet history and politics dictate that such speculation is not only reasonable, but indeed, absolutely crucial.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. Nonesense, Mr. Hound
Intelligence work is much more intricate than the picture you present. Everyone involved uses everyone else, no one controls anyone else. Overlaps of interest are temporary, and imply no allegiance whatever: people who think they do are not fit for the trade, and soon in a shallow grave.

Bin laden used the C.i.A., andf very skillfully. His attacks against the United States and other powers are independent actions, in his own interest.

We may deal sometime with the history of Wahhabbism elsewhere. My suggestion, Sir, is that you acquaint yourself with the Deobandi; it is, in many ways, more important just now.
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #71
79. In your world maybe. On what do you base your knowledge of
Bin Laden's actions? Your suggestion may lead someone down the same blind alley. Is Dobandi the guy who said, "I presume, hence, it is"?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #79
93. Deobandi, Sir
Is an Islamic school or sect originated not long before the Indian Mutiny north of what was then the state of Sind....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #32
77. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. LOL
:toast:

:beer:
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #78
81. Cheers, Bloom.
:hi:

:smoke:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #77
90. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cire4 Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
8. I, for one, will take the pledge
I can't even think of politics right now. Today, my thoughts belong strictly to the victims of this terrible tragedy.
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mrfrapp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
9. Absurd
I will not be cowed into not thinking about this incident, what caused it or what the political implications are. Please continue to discuss intelligently the ramifications of today's events.

That's *my* plea from the UK.
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Murdock Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
10. This is so sad..
Are Du'ers so insensitive that they would put politics ahead of the suffering and carnage in our friends nation?

This is a sad day on DU, Very Sad.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. I'm feeling ill and so sad for my Celtic friend who has family in London
I'm tearing up as I write this. And, I don't hestitate for a second to place the blame squarely on the "the world is a safer place" bfee for creating the climate that was the catalyst for this horrific event.

MKJ
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Try the Sept 11th and 12th 2001 archives...
...we've been here before, and many DUers "gave the benefit of the doubt" and "united behind the nations leader". Sorry, but screw that. The world is much safer without Saddam? We're better off now that Iraq is a terrorist training ground, where it was not prior to our invasion. And now Bush is standing behind Blair as he speaks, looking around with his beady eyes. Sorry, but this just makes it all the more important that we remove these liars, murderers and extremists from power.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #10
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #10
82. We have lots of sad days here on DU.
Lots of people are getting killed everyday.
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
98. Politics is the REASON people are suffering. That and an evil so
beyond reason it will take everything in our power to overcome this. This is a set up to invasion of Iran as well as a way to divert attention from the Plame leak, the Gannon scandal, the Downing Street memo, and impeachment.

While innocent lives have been lost, we must remember that this is all a deadly serious game perpetrated by some very deadly serious psychopaths, currently in control of, well.... EVERYTHING.

My prayers go out to the victims and their families, but my mind is STILL going to attempt to grasp what this will mean for the rest of the world.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
11. No, that doesn't set well with me
People get easily exploited by letting their guard down and become willing victims of unity memes and rush to attach support the troops magnets to the back of their SUVs--without ever connecting the dots between their SUVs and the poor kid who sacrifices his life for it.

No. Eyes wide open.
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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
12. OK....I understand yalls' feelings.....I just remember the
absolutely sickening feeling when the 9/11 attacks occurred. Just totally in shock...ill....stunned, confused. Thought we could let it go for a day. I think I will still let it go for today...it will help me personally to do that. Yall carry on!
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #12
53. there is no one right way...
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 08:34 AM by marions ghost
People have different ways of dealing with a tragedy like this. Analysts of the political scene will naturally begin to define this crime in a larger context. It helps to rationalize it. This does NOT reflect on anyone's degree of empathy for the victims or indicate that they are not also "keeping the vigil." For those who feel that it necessary to close down to basics to absorb the impact of this, that is YOUR way and nothing is wrong with that. But it's pointless to ask that others react exactly as you do. For example, when 9-11 happened, my reaction was different from yours. I was NOT in shock, ill or confused. Sad and depressed, yes, but not shocked. This has to do with the fact that I have had other huge unusual shocks in my life, and lived with the idea that "anything can happen" long before 9-11. Also I come from a family of journalists--which can make one more analytical about current events, more able to shelve emotions and become an observer. "Function first, process later." A lot of rescue workers and firefighters also do this. Often there is a delayed emotional reaction in those who seem unemotional at the time. Soldiers returning from Iraq are another easy example of this.

So please don't be so quick to judge anyone's reactions to this tragedy. Understand that some people need to go into action mode--that is their way of trying to help, esp when a tragedy occurs at long distance. Remember also that we who opposed the war have been severely abused and our views stifled. The anger we have to live with--that our government lied us into a war that has made us MORE vulnerable to such despicable attacks--just has to come out somewhere. At DU, a place of strong opinion, requests to "be quiet everybody" are most likely to be ignored. Those who are shocked by this event can take a break and process it that way. Others, emotionally speaking, can afford to simply trudge on into the aftermath. This is just another good reason to fight on. We all want a world that works a lot better than this.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
67. And while we wrung our hands and reflected on the horror
the Rethugs were running around putting the finishing touches on the Patriot Act, plans to attack Iraq and all manner of wicked things.

Sorry, I can feel bad for our friends in London and be aware of the political implications at the same time. Of course I balanced my checkbook while in labor too to perhaps I have an extraordinary knack for multi-tasking you don't?

You can go and pray or whatever, I will push ahead with my political efforts.

Julie
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
15. I can't - Bush creates these monsters
and then profits when they are let loose on the world. Bush is Hitler.
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BobRossi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
16. Politics brought this......
I call a spade a spade.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
18. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. Deleted message
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whatever4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. I remember this attitude from 911
And when it turned out later that there are many unanswered questions about 911, I decided I'd never put up with that attitude again.

Never again. This IS politics. Seems some people forgot politics is a deadly business.
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tmorelli415 Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
20. I think the loss of life deserves this dignity, respect
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 07:24 AM by tmorelli415
if I had lost a loved one in such a tragedy, I'd want to be given the respect to mourn without the indignity of politicizing the matter for just one day.

discussion of the terrorists and their methods seems natural, but policy discussion and conspiracy theories seem inappropriate today. We wouldn't have liked it much to hear someone say our foreign policy was to blame for 9-11 on that day, however valid the argument may or may not have been. one can't help but think about those things, but it is not too much to ask myself to keep it in for a few hours out of respect and sympathy.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #20
99. On 9/11 . . .
. . . the idea that our foreign policy was to blame for the attacks was very much a part of the discussion. As horrifying as that day was, the reasons for 'why' it had happened, political and otherwise, were examined from every angle.

As far as a 'desire for the respect to mourn without the indignity of politicizing the matter' . . . people absolutely have that right to mourn in any way they choose in the peaceful sanctuary of their own homes among friends and loved ones and away from an international political bulletin board with over 70,000 registered users.

TYY
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WLKjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
23. I agree, save it for later, pray for the safety now.
My thoughts and prayers go out to those in the UK right now.
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Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
24. Sorry, but my brain doesn't shut down because of a tragic attack
Some of us can hold the two things in our minds at once, the attack and the possible reasons for it. It's not disrespectful to the victims to question what the hell's going on. Pious handwringing isn't the only appropriate response.
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freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #24
43. Well said, thank you n/t
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
26. No, politics are responsible for this tragedy.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
27. I so pledge
My thoughts and sympathies are all with the people of London today. It's not a difficult thing to ask of people to show their heart for one day.

British Duers :grouphug:

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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
29. There won't be much controversy
Everyone here knows why the British and our own citizens are targets and for whom exactly we are dying for from a threat increasingly of our own making. It may be cold to show how second hand smoke had led inevitably to a horrible death for an innocent, but that is the situation we live with.

I have been mourning for the world since 2000. We owe truth to the living and to stop the changeable fate that guarantees more. I mourn that the people in both countries have been unable to sway their leaders and that as usual, the business of going after civilian targets is part of the spiteful cowardice of war's very nature.

It was chillingly hard to voice the realization that something very wrong had happened with our own government on 911, even harder that it might have never happened under the rightful president. Of course that realization has NEVER been allowed to come to the fore of national thought even as memory of the victims of 911 receded into a pretext for
an oil empire. Did our respectful unity and silence earn us anything then? All abused and manipulated and the flags go bleached on car windows.

We should pray as hard for peace as we do for the dead and commit ourselves to remove as much human folly from our upside down world as much and as quickly as possible. We have hardly honored the victims of 911 by multiplying more victims and guaranteeing a steady recurrence of such things. Shock, the ceremony of mourning and then- letting, making, it all happen again. The Israelis have a longer history of going through this cycle with never finding a way out than by accelerating violence whose implacable trajectory is revenge in kind.

So I am fine with a moratorium since little needs to be said there anyway- so long as we commit ourselves to not betraying the dead by letting go of the challenge of peacemaking.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #29
56. "We owe truth to the living"
Aways a unique voice, PATRICK. I like the way your mind works.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
30. Send your message to the NeoCon Junta.
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. Exactly!
Let's remember how we got here. Bush will exploit this for all he can.
I'm getting sick of these threads, "Let's not use this for political gain". We're in this mess because our politicians have ignored the problems of the last 40 years in the middle east. We're in this mess because our dear leader used a similar tragedy as an excuse to go after the oil in Iraq. Politics is what this is all about and recognizing that fact isn't the same as exploiting it.
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mr blur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
33. Well, writing from the UK today,
I have to say that, after shock, my wife's first response was "Isn't this convenient for Bush and Blair?" We're not without sorrow or anger - hell, we could have been in London - but I know that it's impossible not to see and wonder about the larger picture. I would say that it's impossible to not be aware that Blair helped Bush lead an illegal occupation and would guess that these attacks are a consequence of this action. If Blair had any sense of decency he would resign and our troops would leave Iraq. That isn't going to happen. He must not be allowed to use this to justify further bloodshed.
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ultraist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #33
83. Well said, mr blur!
These increased terrorist attacks are a direct result of Bush's illegal war! ALL involved, the terrorists and those leading this war, should be held accountable.

We should NOT succumb to blind nationalism and stop asking questions or exploring how and why this happened.
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
37. Sadly... THIS tragedy is ALL about politics IMO.
How convenient is it for all the worlds leaders to be "witness" to what appears to be a tragedy possibly equal to or GREATER than 911?

It is the precursor to the next level as far as I'm concerned. I just wish the people in London didn't' have to be the pawns in this game.

These "leaders" are heartless little shits. they car about NO ONE.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
39. So can we tear into the policies that caused this TOMORROW?
I'm not going to listen to the news today. I don't WANT to hear Chimpy McCokespoon mouthing his empty words about how he's with the English people when it's HIS policies that helped this to happen....
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. I'm planning to do the same...
Not 20 seconds after I heard about what happened in
London I heard the MSM trying to drag in 9/11...

Went something like this:

Blah... Blah... Blah... Oooo, Ahhh Bombs... 911... 911...
911...

A grand total of 5 seconds on the tragedy to the people
in London. Then back to the pre-arranged spin leveraging.

Typical of the selfish American Corporate Owned Media to
make it about them.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
41. What Exactly Did You Have In Mind? What "Politicking" Do You Find To Be...
... objectionable?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #41
48. My Guess, Sir
Is the early chorus that this was contrived to get Rove's legal difficulies off the front page, as well as claims this was contrived by English and U.S. security services, and the like....
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Oh... I See... THOSE Idiots.
Such a vague and broad-brush "no-politicking" knee-jerk demand may indeed cover and apply to the kooks who think like that. In my estimation it would also apply to legitimate and reasonable discussions as well. :eyes:

Thanks for the clarification.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #49
55. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
These appeals to pithiness annoy me to no end.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #49
60. Thank You, Mr. Arwalden
Things were damned odd here about 6 A.M. Central Time. They do seem to have calmed somewhat....
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #49
62. I'm one of those knee jerk "kooks"
but a little nuance here:

my point isn't that I sincerely believe we had anything to do with it.

My point, easily misinterpreted, is that I wish I could strongly believe that it was impossible that we might have had anything to do with it.

Nuance.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #62
73. Well... What I Actually Said Was "Knee-Jerk Demand"
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 09:20 AM by arwalden
<< ME: "Such a vague and broad-brush "no-politicking" knee-jerk demand may indeed cover and apply to the kooks who think like that." >>

... and then, it was in response to The Magistrate's description of the specific *type* of message in question (namely, that the US was actively--or even indirectly--involved with the London bombings) I suggested that people who believe and post such messages were kooks.

<< My point, easily misinterpreted, is that I wish I could strongly believe that it was impossible that we might have had anything to do with it. >>

I hadn't seen any of your earlier posts regarding this subject, so I'll take you at your word. But, I do note that you're carefully wording your reply, and you suggest that your words are being misinterpreted. -- And technically, I suppose that's true. By merely expressing doubt (with the phrase "I wish I could believe") you skillfully avoid making a direct accusation.

An actual direct accusation requires some reasonable justification or evidence, but when someone makes a vague insinuation (such as the ones being bandied about today by you and others) those who make them can dismiss their critics by claiming that there's a lack of nuance, or that their comments were innocent enough, and that they were just a casual expression of their flickering doubt.

Still, even in the absence of a *direct* accusation, the net effect of such affirmative statements of doubt is the same as if the accusation had been made out right.

Sorry... that still sounds a bit kooky to me.

It reminds me of how tabloids will ask a question instead of making a statement. The headline that reads "Is Tom Cruise Gay?" avoids making a direct statement of fact, but it still plants the idea in everyone's mind that he is... or might be. Yet, when Tom Cruise complains, the tabloids can claim "we-never-actually-SAID-he-was-gay" we just expressed that there's a "doubt" about his sexual preference.

Technicality.



edit: punctuation.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. okay mein freund
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 10:20 AM by sui generis
sorry - I wasn't attacking you in my response. (edited to add :pals: icon . . . cause I mean it!)

You are saying that the net effect of my statement is the same as a tabloid article headline or as just making the kooky statement to begin with. I should take offense, and I still might, but will instead clarify.

I am among friends here, mostly, I hope, including yourself. I will make statements however I feel, and will clarify them if necessary, and even on occasion change my mind in light of better or more rational information, and if I get too snarky I'm sure I'll be promptly deleted yet again.

However, I should be able to make an honest statement that describes my mindset at the time I'm making the statement without worrying that someone will interpret my arch-manipulation of politico-emotive events through tabloid floridity of blah de blah, when all I meant was what I said.

And as for caring about what anyone but the people I like think about what I have to say, you know my track record here. So please take it on face value. I have no subtext. I am not an evil manipulative bastard, although I sometimes sound like one.

To restate what I have already said - I wasn't trying to shape the conversation. I was just saying that I had wished, based on my perception of the world, which you find kooky, that I could believe our government was completely noble and virtuous in this regard. If that's a bit kooky, then so be it.

-sui
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King Coal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #62
89. Bingo Sui,
Hit-the-nail-on-the-head City Bingo!
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
47. with all due respect
there is nothing that I can do to help the victims of this barbary. But I will not, cannot, cease my normal day, beyond some time for reflection. I do not support anyone manipulating anything for political gain, but that does not mean that people shouldn't have the opportunity to state their own opinions, no matter how egregious you might find them, on this, another terrible day in a long list of terrible days. Oh Bla Di, I'm afraid, life goeth on for those of us fortunate enough to have made it through another morning.

Why is this day, drenched in blood and fear, any different, in reality, from almost every other day somewhere on the planet? There is a war on, you may have noticed? there is genocide in Sudan, lingering devastation in SE Asia, famine in Ethiopia, civil war in Chechnya and Colombia and so on. What's the statute of limitations before we can have a discussion?

Anyone who says that the people killed were not innocents (perhaps some weren't, but unless there is evidence that they were targeted in particular, then for the purposes of this murder-spree, they were innocent) or that the people of London somehow 'deserved it' need to go climb back under their rocks and let us know when evolution has removed the sloping forehead. To state that because the military of the UK and US have killed civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan that somehow excuses the murderers behind this attack from culpability as terrorists and savages is simply misguided.
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LiberallyInclined Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
52. ummm...politics CAUSED the explosions-
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 08:30 AM by LiberallyInclined
so it's really kinda hard to separate the two.
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GeekMonkey Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
54. NO
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
58. No - it's not black OR white. Politics OR Compassion
It is a many colored spectrum -
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
59. I have posted numerous times this morning about
my heartbreak for the people of London. I am torn apart by this and my heart totally goes out to London. I hate this.

But at the same time, no, I am not going to vow that anything is off-topic. This is a political website, for crying out loud.

Let people talk about what they want to. If a thread is inappropriate, hit alert. If it just bothers you, hide it.

There are lots of sympathetic threads going on right now about this. But I don't feel comfortable with saying "we can't talk about this, this, or this." I get that message from my government too often as it is.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #59
61. BB is on a roll this morning
hiya sweetie :hi:

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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #61
64. Hi babe.
How's your handsome self?

I hate this. I LOVE London so much. :cry:

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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. It's bad on so many fronts
I suspect there will be backlash

1. against the muslim community in Europe, as a whole
2. against anyone here who has a problem with the War on Terra

I just hope our own leadership doesn't shirk from making political hay out of this as more information becomes known - I really hate it when they all "get in line" behind the president on sentimentality instead of rationality.

p.s.

like my nekkid angel (Mr. Sui)? silly, that's his thumb, he's just clasping his hands.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. That's Mr. Sui???
Low whistle. My. I can't admit how long I just squinted at your avatar. Mind enlarging it? LOL! Get it???

You are both extremely handsome. Is it hot in here?

:D
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
63. I'll take that pleadge
My heart goes out to our friends in England who are living through this horrific event.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
65. we have the power to manipulate tragedies now?
My, how far we've come as an online community!

That aside, I'm not saying that any government was involved in this, although I'd be lying if it wasn't one of the first thoughts that came into my head when I heard about this tragedy. Five years of this crap tends to make one think the worst of any situation.
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Meldread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
70. I cannot.
We cannot deny who is indirectly responsible for these attacks. We cannot bury our heads in the sand -- even for a few hours out of a day -- to do so would be aiding the terrorist cause. It is precisely because I care so much about what happened to those in these attacks that I am politically concerned. I want to prevent future attacks from happening, and I know that we need to keep our eyes focused on the only enemy we have any control over: Bush.

Do not be naive and think that he is not looking for a way to use this to his political advantage. If we do not do the same, then we are not doing our duty it is our moral responsability to counter his divisiveness.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
74. No thanks,
we have been depolitisized more then enough.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
76. Get back to me when Bush/Blair & Company take the pledge.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #76
84. Best post I've seen so far!!!
Straight and to the point.
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #76
86. Amen.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
80. I think it's a bit much
to expect no politicking on a political board.

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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
85. It bothers me that this happens in Iraq on a DAILY basis
AND NO ONE CARES. When it happens in a western country, stop the presses. It bothers me so much I'm on the verge of sickness right now. When will people start treating life equally?

I feel for the victims and their families and those impacted. That goes without saying. However, I am very disturbed that no one expresses nearly the same sentiment when the same, or much worse, happens in Iraq (because of OUR ACTIONS), to Iraqis.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #85
102. much food for thought there...ty m ex
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
87. Add me to the "no" column.
I think we're all quite capable of feeling empathy for the people of London while simultaneously evaluating the political roots and implications of today's attack.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #87
92. Yeah, that's what
we do!
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Sparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
88. No.
Sorry.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
91. Reichstag II
Sorry, these magicians are masters at redirecting our attention.

Not gonna work this time.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
94. Discussion of politics is NOT the equivalent of manipulating the tragedy.
I am sorry, deeply sorry, for what is happening in London.

When 9/11 happened here, it was wrong then to try to squelch discussion of politics and what might've brought 9/11 about.

How does setting limits on what we can talk about make the Brits feel better? Maybe I just don't get it.

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Michael_UK Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
95. I'll take it
I can't believe people are coming up with conspiracy theories already.
I've got friends in London - the ones I can contact are fine.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
96. the way to help is fix the problem--which is political

I'm not buying the yellow ribbon shit. It's led to far more death than if our elected officials were dealt with more critically from the start.


Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
97. Nope
Our policies are responsible for this. I am not letting up on Bush even for a day. Our Dem leaders rolled over and gave us the Patriot Act so screw them too.
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Chichiri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
100. I will not take that pledge.
I took it on 9/11, and look what happened.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
103. From a Brit - Don't be so bloody STUPID.

You can take from one of those over the other side of the pond that we're talking about politics PLENTY.

Don't give the opposition a day's grace! Give them NOTHING.

Oh, and incidentally, the freeps have specifically asked DU not to politicise it. Whilst politicising it themselves, of course...
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