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Enraged American Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:20 PM
Original message
North Korean (DPRK) literacy rate higher than South Korean.
http://www.asiavacationguide.com/SouthKorea_Culture.htm...
http://www.asiavacationguide.com/NorthKorea_Culture.htm...

The life expectancy in the north isn't that bad either.

I also checked out the World Book Encyclopedia entry about the two Koreas. In South Korea education is mandatory through grade 5 or 6. After that parents must PAY for ALL further education INCLUDING PUBLIC SCHOOLS. Whereas in North Korea ALL PUBLIC EDUCATION IS FREE, and there is mandatory education for 11 years starting with one year of pre school. North Korea also has a large university (it has roughly as many universities as South Korea) and technical school system provided by the state.

I'm just reporting the facts here.

I don't doubt that there is no freedom of speech, press, or enterprise/consumption there; and I never have. Don't turn this thread into a rant about that.
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mddemo Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. n korea
it must be great to be a slave and be able to read, im not buying this N korea is misunderstood stuff, i always remember being on the line and looking north at night and seeing nothing but darkness and candles, then look south and you see the night sky illuminated.
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Enraged American Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Who knows.
Maybe you don't buy into the DPRK is misunderstoof stuff, but you have to buy into the facts I've presented.

It probably is repressive enough to make John Ashcroft look like John Lennon; but I seriously DOUBT that the standard of living there is as bad as it's made out to be.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. Why are you trying to discredit Kucinich with your avatar?
That's what I don't understand. Kucinich of course would never allow trade with a slave state like North Korea, since Kucinich has fought for freedom his entire life. Kucinich is low in the polls anyway, why bother to attempt to smear him? I don't understand.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. So what should we turn it into?
Edited on Wed Sep-24-03 06:31 PM by blondeatlast
On edit: You're trying to find political debate from a vacation guide?
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. um....
What's the point, exactly? I feel like I'm missing an earlier debate...


By the way, they may get all sorts of free education in NK, but remember what they're being taught. I'd rather live in ignorance than be brainwashed into believing Bush invented outer space.
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Enraged American Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. They're taught plenty.
According to the World Book the universities are mainly focused on sciences and physics. If they're not, who's going to build the nukes?

Sure, there's propaganda; but every country has its own form of that. In America we have the "The land of the free and the home of the brave" stuff; in France you're taught to respect "la Patrie"; etc.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. You wouldn't know tyranny if it locked you up
I'm sick of this crap questioning how bad NK is. I know some people live in denial, but it's a river not a fucking ocean.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'd like to see independent verfication
North Korea and propaganda go hand in hand you running dog capitalist pig!


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NicoleM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. "I'm just reporting the facts here."
Okay, where did the "facts" about North Korea come from? The North Korean government, perhaps?

Did you know that North Koreans are INCHES shorter than South Koreans because of malnutrition?
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. Is it hard to read when you're starving to death?
"North Korea continues to rely on international aid to feed its population, but many people in the country are suffering from hunger and malnutrition. According to a study published last year by the Food and Agricultural Organization, 13 million people in North Korea -- over half of the population -- suffered from malnutrition. Aid agencies have estimated that up to two million people have died since the mid-1990s as a result of acute food shortages caused by natural disasters and economic mismanagement. Several million children suffer from chronic malnutrition, impairing their physical and mental development. Many people in the country also lack adequate medical care due to lack of medical personnel and supplies. "

and then there's always the torture:

"Reports from a variety of sources suggest that torture and ill-treatment are widespread in prisons and labour camps, as well as in detention centers where North Koreans who have been forcibly returned from China are held for interrogation pending transfer to other places. Conditions in prisons and labour camps are reported to be extremely harsh. Inmates are made to work from early morning till late at night in farms or factories, and minor infractions of rules can be met with severe beatings. According to some reports, however, more deaths are caused by lack of food, harsh conditions and lack of medical care than by torture or ill-treatment."

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA240022003?op...

give it up!



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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. lol, yeah, North Korea is great! Well, ummm, other than starving....
It's great! Other than Kim Jong basing his whole foreign policy on the development of nuclear weapons. Other than that it's great! Yeah! North Korea is fantastic!
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Enraged American Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Ummmm
Whatever. I posted certified facts. If you want to use sarcasm to belittle me then fine.

"basing his whole policy on the development of nuclear weapons"

not unlike our foreign policy during the Cold War.
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NicoleM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. "certified facts"
Where did they get the facts from?
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. From a TRAVEL site--sheesh.
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Enraged American Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. The CIA World Factbook...
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Well, okay.
But the figures still don't change my mind. I may be a raging liberal, but I'll take SK over NK any day.

Hell, I'll take Husseins' Iraq over NK.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
12. Ahem. from the same website:
NK

Even with aid, malnutrition rates are among the world's highest and estimates of mortality range in the hundreds of thousands as a direct result of starvation or famine-related diseases.

Infant mortality rate: 24.29 deaths/1,000 live births (2000 est.)

Welcome to paradise!


SK

Infant mortality rate: 7.85 deaths/1,000 live births (2000 est.)


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Enraged American Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. OK
Fair enough. But look at the age demographics. 6% are seniors in DPRK; 7% in SK. The elderly are treated fairly well in DPRK judging from those numbers.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. 3x the infant death rate.
Go ahead, convince me.
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Astarho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
14. About the literacy
North Korea uses the Hangul script, a phonetic script designed for the Korean language.

South Korea uses some Hangul and some Chinese characters (which have no relation to the Korean language).
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
16. Standard of living? Compare the infant mortality rates.
South Korea:
Infant mortality rate: 7.85 deaths/1,000 live births (2000 est.)

North Korea:
Infant mortality rate: 24.29 deaths/1,000 live births (2000 est.)

From the linked sites.

Been a while since I was in college, but I believe that is 3 times South Korea's.

Can you say, malnourished?
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Enraged American Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Sorry, but
24.29 deaths/1000 is horrible by our standards, but internationally it's hardly hell on earth. China has 25.26 deaths per 1000, for example.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Why Don't You Post The Difference in Per Capita GDPs
It is astonishing.....


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Enraged American Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Yes it is.
But per capita GDPs are not measures of standard of living. They do not take into account education, health services, and median income. That's economics 101 stuff.
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. I think you really ought to brush up on History 101, Sport
NK is as bad as bad gets, yet you have now posted at least two (that I know of) threads that seem to attempt to obviate this fact.

Get real.
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. NK is as opaque as the old Soviet Union
and Red China were. Those "facts", even the ones from the CIA, are extrapolated from meaninglessly small samples.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. I'll make this simple...
Edited on Wed Sep-24-03 06:46 PM by Padraig18
North Korea is a HELL ON EARTH, and makes Saddam Hussein's Iraq look like Disneyland! I won't bore you with a repetition of the facts that others have abundantly provided you in this and your other post on this topic.

All clear now? *sweet smile*
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. And in case you doubt ME, here's what Amnesty Internationals says
Edited on Wed Sep-24-03 07:12 PM by Padraig18
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mkregel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
25. Trust me
Kim Jong Il doctors his facts.

Literacy? If they can speak the great leader's name that's considered literacy.

North Korea is a cult taken on a national scale...
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Well put, mkregel--
"North Korea is a cult taken on a national scale..."

Exactly.
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Enraged American Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. OK OK
I can't judge. All I know is they have a high literacy rate and none of their stats justify their being named worst overall place to live by time magazine (or was it Newsweek? it was the international edition anyway).
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Oppression DOESN'T COUNT IN YOUR BOOK?!
You are posting on a decidely left-of-center message board and you are defending a country with a horrible reputation in terms of political, religious, and ethnic oppression and even worse reputation for human rights?

Or am I mistaken???

Is this Freeperville?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Nah
Apparently, neither mass starvation, chronic malnutririon, gross denial of basic human rights, public executions, etc., count for nothing, because this 'socialist paradise' is, well, socialist. :puke:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Sheesh. What was I thinking?! (slaps forehead)
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Pay attention next time!
:silly:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-03 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
27. Is being illiterate an offense punishable by death there?
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screaming_meme Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
30. Proof that socialism works
I bet North Koreans enjoy free healh care too. Their longer expected lives suggest that.
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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
31. rofl
Edited on Thu Sep-25-03 06:55 PM by Kamika
Im sure those kids are all super happy lol if they actually survive eatin wood thruhout their childhood they can go to a university teachin 70s technoloy wohoo.

You know you praisin north korea is an insult to everyone who ever died by their regime becausetheyd rather spend money on parades then food.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. Clever, but will EA get it?
Still, great post!
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Sadly, no
He has some REAL bug up his ass about the DPRK.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
38. Every Time I See This Thread Kicked I Chuckle
NT
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
42. As a graduate student in Japanese
I was interested in all of East Asia, so I've been following NK for a long time.

The library got government PR magazines from all the East Asian governments. All of them portrayed their countries as reasonable, progressive societies that were going to be even better in the future.

Not the North Korean magazines. They just raved. Even the Chinese during the Cultural Revolution had some clue about what would look good to outsiders. The North Koreans were so into their cult of Kim Il-sung that they didn't care that they were ridiculous to anyone who didn't "share the fantasy."

Since then, I've lived in Japan and visited many times, as well as following events in East Asia pretty closely. It should tell you something that China (China!) has a North Korean refugee problem. They swim across the Yalu River and try to blend into the population of ethnic Koreans in that region.

I've also seen coverage of the family reunification visits. The South Koreans complain that their trips into North Korea don't allow enough time to visit their relatives, because they have to participate in all these offical events glorifying Kim Jong-Il. When the North Koreans come South, their relatives complain that their handlers won't leave them alone and that they parrot the sayings of the Kims like brainwashed zombies.

Did you see the Wide Angle program on North Korea? British filmmakers were allowed free access to two selected families. While the families seemed to have enough food and live in tidy little apartments, they talked like fundamentalists, only everything was "thanks to Kim Jong-Il" instead of "praise the Lord." The political indoctrination that children received from the pre-school level would make a fundamentalist envious.

One of the families went to the countryside to their ancestral village for a festival, and the filmmakers mentioned that they had to get a permit to do so. The infrastructure is so bad that the 30-mile trip took half a day by bus.

I've never been to South Korea, but I was in Japan just before the last World Cup, which was co-hosted by Japan and SK, and there was a lot of TV coverage of South Korea. The scenes shown indicated a country with a living standard nearly as high as Japan's.

As far as literacy is concerned, Korea traditionally used Chinese characters supplemented with their own indigenous phonetic alphabet. The North Korean government abolished the use of Chinese characters back in the 1950s. so it's a simple matter to achieve basic literacy. From what I hear of South Korea, they have gradually phased out Chinese characters, and most publications nowadays use only the phonetic alphabet.

Even a friend of mine who lived in SK in the 1960s said that all material that was directed at a mass audience was written in the hangul alphabet.

South Korea is a very Confucian society, and it would be surprising if there were any families that didn't send their children to elementary and high school. (BTW, SK offers free elementary and high school, too.)
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Enraged American Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. According to the 2002 World Book Encyclopedia
SK does NOT provide free high school.

And to that guy up there: the DPRK has a relatively high life expectancy. What are you talking about?
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NicoleM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. You are aware
that there is a hunger problem in NK, no?
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LastDemInIdaho Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
44. Why do they continue to allow a madman ruin their country?
There is no excuse to let their country be led to ruin.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-25-03 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. kick
- :)
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