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Tell me something to calm my 'another MIHOP is coming' fears

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 11:35 AM
Original message
Tell me something to calm my 'another MIHOP is coming' fears
Cuz the heebee-geebeez are after me big time.

As more damaging evidence against the junta comes out and the usual news diversions fail to work as well as they used to, is the junta gonna pull a big one?

Is Iran so essential to PNAC that they would slaughter some 'sacrificial lambs' to get their latest war on?

Got a sudden and persistent chill, watching an aged and ailing Billy Graham talking about 'what will probably be his last Crusade' in Greater New York. I broke into a sweat! Shit. What a way to start up a seriously mindless knee-jerk Christian Jihad at a time Rove/Cheney needs a bit diversion most.

Take a shot at calming havocmom's fears that a MIHOP is in the tube and some Iranian passports will be found in the aftermath. Give me some logic I can cling to that argues against my feeling the Falwell-types would not mind the sacrifice of some lambs if it is a means to the end of their long term goal of bringing down some ax on secular proponents in the US and brown people who pray differently in other lands. Give me a chill pill that will bring me down from the firm belief that the Corporatists have no limit on what they will do to make money on war.

They moved Graham's Crusade from Madison Square Garden to Flushing Meadows Park. Talk to me DU, cuz da momma has a bad feeling about this and it is a bad feeling that runs deep.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. my only hope is that they are too afraid that much of the public
and are on to them and that there may be people on the inside that won't let them get away with it.

But I share your fear. My liberal wife still cant bring herself to believe in LIHOP, never mind MIHOP, and she has heard all the connect-the-dots arguments.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
2. funny . . . I was just thinking the same thing this morning . . .
one the one hand, we have all this fecal matter floating around Washington . . . and on the other hand, we have this rotating electrical appliance with blades . . . I just have this hunch that the two are about to meet . . . and the results will NOT be pretty . . .
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. It wasn't me, I swear!
"Cuz the heebee-geebeez are after me big time."

They got me already.

Yes, I feel a great unease. I've been planning a move south for the last couple of months. I am so antsy. I have about two weeks left before I go and there is an undercurrent of thought that passes through me that keeps me thinking that isn't soon enough. I have a strong desire to be near my kids right now.
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nikraye Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 11:51 AM
Original message
We will not walk in fear...
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine; and remember that we are not descended from fearful men. Not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate, and to defend causes that were for the moment unpopular... We can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result."

- Edward R. Morrow
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
9. I have no fear for myself and do not let fear stop me
but I do fear a theocratic dictatorship in the US and another war on innocent peoples abroad.

I rage and act against the machine without fear. My fear is for the innocents, the unknowing and the nation.
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HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. Fear has not really kicked in
More like a need to consolidate. Regroup in close proximity as a family because of a feeling we will need each other.

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Yeah, know what ya mean about wanting to be near your kids.
My daughter is a long way away and we both are very intutive. Both feel the distance particularly keenly of late. She is also extremely homesick for the place she loves most.

When I saw Graham talking about a huge gathering in NY and the commentators talking "last crusade" I started fighting a panic from my bones. What better way to work up mindless and blinding hate in huge masses of people than a MIHOP at an event like that?

Combined with the things Ritter has said about Iran in June and the fact that the month is running out at the same time the Congress is starting to show some backbone and balls and pull at the reins a bit...

I do not put ANYTHING beyond the evil people who are in power. The question is, are things that bad for them and is war on Iran that essential to them? We know bush* would rather be a dictator than a president, he told us so himself. How close are we to the junta haveing to justify martial law here and another war abroad?
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Why are they moving...
the crusade to Queens? Are they expecting that many people?
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. They say they are expecting a large crowd. Makes sense; Graham is a
big draw, especially when they keep bringing up that it is likely to be his 'last crusade'.

The hairs on my neck tell me they also might be concerned with damage to prime real estate, the owners of which (unlike the guys at WTC) might not be looking for a reason for a little personal urban renewal.
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BronxBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. Aren't the Mets
looking for a new stadium? Why's does it always have to be NYC?
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formerrepuke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. It's more likely that the LIHOP/MIHOP will occur in Iraq- and be
blamed on either Iran or Syria.. thus justifying the expansion of military action into one of those countries. After all- how many years went by before the (some of) public learned the truth about the Gulf of Tonkin "indicent"?
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. that is doubtful to me
because in order for the American people on the whole to embrace any more war--then it is going to have to happen here.
Our comfort zone is way too comfortable.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Exactly, to move the masses in the US, a MIHOP in another nation would
be useless. Americans are not in the street weekly to rage against all the innocents dead in Iraq so corporations can profit. A hit at home is a proven and it makes me very tense that they might be headed there again.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. A hit at home
also unites the sheeple behind the president, as was the case with the 9/11 attacks. When one takes into consideration the little dictator's plummeting approval ratings, the determination to invade Iraq and the current discussions about the Downing Street minutes, MIHOP here is almost certain.
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. it doesn't have to happen here
it has to happen to Americans.

There are plenty of Americans in Iraq.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. 1700+ of Americans being slaughtered for oil hasn't worked
yet--in fact, their support of Bush is still sliding.
People aren't in the streets protesting. There are fewer "magnets", fewer flags, and generally I think one of the best analogies that I have read is that when you walk down the streets in our nation, you would never know that we are a nation at war.
We still have our football games, entertainment awards shows, American Idol, etc.
No--I firmly believe that in order to get the country "appropriately patriotic" again we will have to have an event on our soil.
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
42. that's not the point
the point was whether a MIHOP/LIHOP could be pulled off in America. War and "terrorist attacks" are two different things in the minds of the "American Idol"-loving public.

I stand by my point that a MIHOP/LIHOP doesn't have to happen on American soil. It only has to happen to Americans and be pinned on Iran or Syria--whichever is next. I'd say it'll be Iran.
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QuettaKid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. speaking of Gulf of Tonkin.....
Edited on Tue Jun-21-05 11:59 AM by QuettaKid
can you say Straits of Hormuz? I think you can.


SNIP>>"" You will no doubt recall that the USS America (an old Aircraft Carrier) was sunk in the Atlantic on the 14th May 2005, after 25 days of explosions. The Navy said that the explosive tests would provide valuable data on survivability for the next generation of Aircraft Carriers, which are now in development.

This could of course be true, but it could also be a test to see what it takes to sink an Aircraft Carrier of this size. It is also difficult to understand how using "explosives" would help the design of future carriers, unless the Navy expect the enemy to place these on the ship somehow. Surely, a better test would be achieved by using weapons that are more likely to be used (like missiles for example?).""<<SNIP

http://www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/05_Terror/050620....
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. Yeah, saw that too. And it seems a reason to be concerned
But can't shake the feeling that the junta is getting so shakey that they won't punt for a little bump in the polls. When even some in the GOP are using the I word, the junta has to have its collective knickers in a twist.

There has been so much criminal activity that they will not allow power to slip from (or be pried from) their hands. At the point that they lose power, they face consequences for their past actions. They are not a bunch to happily march off to jail to work on their books like the boys who went down in the Nixon Administration.

These guys make Nixon look honest. They are evil on a world class scale and their crimes are not something they are ever gonna take the fall for.

An aircraft carrier is a nasty diversion, but I do not think Cheney will risk his neck on something that might blow over within two cycles of the news.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
10. Unlike 9/11, EVERYONE is watching them really closely - and I'm
Edited on Tue Jun-21-05 12:00 PM by leveymg
not talking about al-Qaeda cells in the U.S. Every intel agency -- ours, theirs, the other guys -- know that the stakes this time are so much higher than in 2001, that an act of provocation of the type you fear would probably lead to World War.

THERE IS REASON TO WORRY: The world is at a very high level of war preparedness, and it would not take much to set it off.

THERE IS REASON NOT TO DESPAIR: Everyone -- well, most everyone except some Fundamentalists and defense contractors -- would lose.

Bush and his circle are under incredible strain right now. However, Big Brother (the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the NSA, the CIA, etc.) are not suicidal nuts, and (contrary to what the White House wants you to believe) most of them are very competent.

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. That's why I figure the next bone-head stunt they pull would have to be
one which would ellicit a huge emmotional, gut wrenching response in a large number of people. You know, bring us to (or even beyond) the brink of Civil War kind of emmotional trigger.

A much loved, aged and ailing American Icon is doing a 'last crusade'? That worries me A LOT.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. I don't want to minimize the very real danger of such a thing, but
Edited on Tue Jun-21-05 12:44 PM by leveymg
there are so many thousands of people looking for the tell-tail signs of preparation for a mass casualty attack on American soil.

Nothing's impossible, but ask yourself a few questions: who would really stand to benefit (financially, ideologically, emotionally, etc.) from such an attack; and 2), could they really pull it off?

The answer is 1) there are a lot of people who have reasons (good or bad) to commit mass murder here; BUT, 2) not many have the wherewithal to carry it out; and 3) we have a pretty good idea who populates the very select group that matches 1 and 2.

There's not a lot of real opportunity. The Bushites will try something else - they'll try to provoke the Iranians to do something stupid, or Likud will have some cut-out terrorist front blow someone else up in Lebanon. But, the Iranians aren't stupid and neither are the Syrians. They know that they stand to gain a great deal simply by not engaging the US military, and surviving the Bush-Likud onslaught.

I am very wary about the extreme Right-wing religious elements in the US, Israel and Pakistan. If they really believed that the end was near for them, they might try something desperate. But, they are a minority in these countries military and intelligence services. I would think that many sane, rational officers are watching the end-timers very closely and keeping them on a short leash.

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. End timers in the Air Force Academy seem to have the upper hand over
the 'watchers' who want a sane and secular US Military. And a lot of top brass was purged in the early days after bush* took that oath he has foresworn so often.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. The AF people who control the "keys" to the nuclear triggers are in
the Captain-Colonel officer grades. They are mostly married, with children, and although politically conservative and church-going, they tend to be very clear-eyed people.

There are some evangelical types, particularly among the junior officers, and a few flag officers, who fit the category you're talking about. The very top brass (JCS) are politician-soldiers, and they serve at the will of the President, but their staff interpret policy and the line officers carry out the orders.

That organization will survive Bush.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
45. Not worried about nukes
worried about private sector brownshirts and martial law at a time when real army and the Guard have their hands full elsewhere
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. My point is, the uniformed services and the spooks won't go along
next time with a "preemptive" US attack or the monkey business that would provoke war with another major Middle East power.

The military itself will resist any further White House straying from the Powell Doctrine -- no US war that isn't broadly supported by the American people, well-planned, and winnable by overwhelming force. They also want allied assistance. They've already said no dice to an aggressive, unilateral war against Iran or Syria.

Unless there's another huge breakdown in domestic counter-terrorism, we won't see another 9/11-type attack. That's unlikely.

So, IMHO, its unlikely we'll see private sector SA in the streets and martial law anytime soon. Knock wood.

:hi:
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wiggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
11. Lots of important events coming up
Many things are going badly for the administration. We've got new Abu Ghraib photos and videos coming soon, low approvals, 2006 elections, DSM, Bolton vote, DeLay troubles, social security lead balloon, Patriot Act renewal, Iran issues, deficit spending, low military recruiting....all kinds of things that would look better to the administration if there were a large distraction.

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kaitykaity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
14. Place your bet in Vegas, honey.
Be a millionaire for an instant before the
$$'s worth nada.

(Sorry, no reassurance. Forgive me.)
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
15. OK, try this bit of news...
see this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Rush is saying that if America is attacked again it will be Dems' fault. Which sounds like he knows a MIHOP is coming and laying the groundwork to blame the "obstructionist" Dems for it, and thereby taking the attention off of DSM, polls, and Iraq and hurting Dems at the same time. And Rush is the GOP's favorite mouthpiece, so it would make since to get him to start laying the initial groundwork.

Oh, wait a minute, that doesn't help much does it?
Sorry!
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. No need to apologize for being honest.
My head operates on hard logic and evidence, but my gut has a tendency to put a lot of seemingly unrelated things together into a whole that makes a whole lotta logical sense.

Try as I may to find a logically brain agruement against what my gut is computing, I keep failing too.

Damn.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Rush doesn't know squat. Geez. Nor does Billy Graham.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Yeah, bt they both draw a crowd
And Dr. Graham is much loved. If he were a casulity of a MIHOP there would be a huge problem advocating reason and restraint in policy.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Rush only knows what Rove tells him. That's my point. n/t
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. Sorry...can't do it. These people are willing to do ANYTHING to.....
...maintain and/or enhance their power.

And once it happens, look for the NeoCons to declare martial law, cancel all future elections, and for Herr Busch to declare himself "President for Life".
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. yeah, that's what I figure too
Wanna brownie? Was thinking of making goodies cuz I don't see a whole lotta reason to watch my diet for long term health.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
29. Two possible scenarios
1) A "suitcase" nuclear bomb is set off in an American city; the culprit is an Iranian illegal immigrant, or;

2) President Bush is assassinated; the culprit is any Middle-Eastern person.

Either way we get instant martial law, recension of all our liberties and the prospect of eternal war orchestrated by people who can no longer be removed from power.

Any terrorist attack would lead to escalation of violence, both here and abroad. That would be a benefit to the cabal in power since they drive the populace with fear.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Add to your first scenario a beloved, aging and ailing American Icon
and a huge crowd of faithful Christians. That is my worry. Is the event too tailor made for Cheney/Rove's pruposes?
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
32. Unless They Want To Be Hung From The St. Louis Arch, They Wouldn't Dare !!
Too many people watching now.

Too much doubt about 9\11.

They would have to put the entire country under martial-law!!!

Caveat... they just possibly may be that stupid.

If so, were gonna need some looooooooooooooonnnnggg rope!

:mad:


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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. "They would have to put the entire country under martial-law"
EXACTLY! And who would that best serve?
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. True... But They Would Also Need The Assistance Of The Army, And...
the National Guard.

And while it is true that they've managed to 'retire' almost anybody who thought this Iraq venture a bad idea, they still have a major PR problem with the troops and the people.

Bush declaring martial-law is one thing, enforcing it may be quite another.

Remember... the Chinese had to import soldiers from way outside of Beijing to go to Tiananman Square, because the soldiers there did not want to squash the Resistance. In fact seemed to agree with it.

There was no Internet then, and only state sponsored TV, so what those 'outside' soldiers were told before they got to TS...

One can only imagine.

I truly don't think American soldiers would go against their own populace. They've been burned enough by this administration themselves.

:shrug:
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CantGetFooledAgain Donating Member (635 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
35. Well, here's something...
We all assume a new 9/11 is the only thing that could get us into Iran. But what I am seeing out of the corner of my eye is an effort to place Bin Laden in Iran. I think that instead of MIHOP this time (too risky) they might just lie about Bin Laden's location and use that to justify some sort of military action.

I know, it's not exactly comforting, but better than another 9/11.

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Yeah, I try to hang on to that Where's Bin Laden game
but some itel guys said, just yesterday that they think Pakistan, bt since it is a soverign state we can't go there after him. So were they telling the junta, 'Don't play the bin Laden card to jstify Iran or we'll hammer you'?

Anybody with a brain knows to go into Iran would be a disaster. So they re-route motive from brain to emotion?
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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
38. I think it's possible, but not likely
Bush's highest rating in all the polls is for his performance on the 'war on terror'. Another attack would leave him wide-open for dem criticism because, after all, the country is supposed to be on alert and prepared to prevent such events. I am not sure this would elevate his approval rating at all.

Perhaps a more likely scenario would be a heroic stopping of an attack in the 'nick of time'? This would act as a definite boon to his approval ratings, and would also give his admin an excuse to tighten security, etc. Just as sickening, but at least no one would be hurt.

Billy Graham may be speaking to his age when he calls this his last crusade. He is, after all, elderly and ailing.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. I KNOW Graham is speaking about his age
What I am suggesting is he is a pawn in a game by some bad people
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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Could be n/t
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
39. I've been having the same thoughts
n/t
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
44. Another MIHOP event would backfire big time...
...in the current political climate. It would make MIHOP believers even out of the freepers. Bush wouldn't just be impeached and thrown out of office--he'd be lynched!
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. I'm guessing "alien" like scares to cuase the panic....
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. You've got more faith in the masses responding rationally if there
were a really bad event. I don't have as much faith that enough rational people would set out to maintain a thoughful approach.

If a crowd of Christians at a revival meeting were to be attacked, I fear the emotional response would lead to such chaos that martial law would be declared. Who benefits from that? Liberals or the guys whose little empire is springing all sorts of leaks?

And if an Iranian passport were to be found, who's blood would the masses be calling for?

Who said it would be easier to be dictator?

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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
48. I've expected something for quite awhile now
It wouldn't surprise me a bit.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
50. Nah, I'd rather throw gasoline on the fire
What if the Caspian wells weren't a fizzle after all?
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