The number of war deaths is a fraud, just another Bush lie

[Nancy Waterman]

I read somewhere and then heard it confirmed today by an ex soldier on Air America that the count of soldiers who have died DOES NOT include those who are wounded and then die on the way to a hospital or die in a hospital even briefly after a battle. The death statistic ONLY includes those who die on the battlefield. In other words, the real number of deaths is much, much higher.

This is a huge deception, and I think the American people may start to get wind of it in the coming month or so. The story has begun to seep through the blockade.

[OrlandoGator]

1. I've seen several articles stating that the actual toll is ~9,000.

n/t

[FreedomAngel82]

4. Same here

I don't know myself but I wouldn't put it anything past them to do this. So basically they're still listed as dead but just the official number isn't reported and just the number killed in action?

[Tiggeroshii]

2. Pity..... :-\ n/t

[LynnTheDem]

3. Except in fact that's not true.

Which you can prove to yourself by going to the ICCC site and checking all the US soldiers who are listed and who are counted who were wounded in Iraq and died in hospitals in America and in Germany and in Kuwait and etc.

To make it easy for you;

Go to http://www.icasualties.org/oif/

Click on "Fatality Details", 2nd bar from the left along the top.
http://www.icasualties.org/oif/Details.aspx

At the very bottom of this page you will see filters you can set to get whatever info you're after.

Scroll over to the far right and in "country of death" scroll through and select "USA" (or Germany or whatever).

Scroll back to the left and click on "apply filter".

A list of all US troops who were wounded in Iraq but died in US hospitals will be displayed. And every one of those troops is included in the 1700+ count.

HTH.

[END_HATRED_NOW]

5. there's a way to determine the truth...

so where are the names of all these uncounted soldiers who died in military hospitals? show me a link with the names please.

[LynnTheDem]

6. Sure, no problem. Read my post above yours and you can do it

yourself.

:)
Edit; Forgot to say, if you click on the paper icon to the far left of each name, you can get the DOD official release and news media articles on that soldier, such as;

U.S. Army Sergeant 1st Class Randy D. Collins
Age: 36
From: Long Beach, California
Assigned To: 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment
Based In: Fort Irwin, CA
Fatality Date: Tuesday, May 24, 2005
Fatality Cause: Hostile - hostile fire - mortar attack
Fatality Location: Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD, USA

IMMEDIATE RELEASE May 27, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DoD Identifies Army Casualty
The Department of Defense announced today the death of a soldier who was supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Sgt. First Class Randy D. Collins, 36, of Long Beach, Calif., died May 24 at the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Md., of injuries sustained in Mosul, Iraq, May 4 during a mortar attack. Collins was assigned to the Army's 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, Fort Irwin, Calif.

[Internut]

10. Here are a couple:

http://www.icasualties.org

and

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/

from the first few pages of the second one:

Sgt. Ronald W. Baker 34 Company C, 39th Support Battalion, Arkansas Army National Guard Cabot, Arkansas Baker died October 13, 2004, in Landstuhl, Germany, of injuries sustained on October 7 when a car bomb detonated near his patrol vehicle in Taji, Iraq.

Spc. Zeferino E. Colunga 20 4th Squadron, 2nd Armored Calvary Regiment Bellville, Texas Evacuated from Iraq on August 4, 2003, and died of a non-combat illness at Homburg University Hospital, Germany on August 6

Cpl. Jason L. Dunham 22 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Scio, New York Dunham was manning a checkpoint near Karbala, Iraq, on April 14, 2004, when an Iraqi man jumped out of a car and attacked him. As he fought his attacker, Dunham saw a grenade in the man's hand, shouted to warn other Marines and covered the device with his helmet. He suffered severe head wounds and died April 22 at military hospital in Bethesda, Maryland. He has been nominated for the Medal of Honor for his actions.


Staff Sgt. William D. Chaney 59 Company B, 1st Battalion, 106th Aviation Regiment, Illinois Army National Guard Schaumburg, Illinois Died on May 18, 2004, in Landstuhl, Germany after he was medically evacuated from Iraq to Germany for surgery due to a sudden medical condition

[Oversea Visitor]

7. Simple way to check

Out of the 1723 how many is confirmed battlefield dead. Check on numbers that die of wound. After that ask yourself whats cooking.

We all know from Vietnam experince how much people like high casualty figures. No way this can continue when the figures get too high.

Doesnt really matter what the dead figures are it will get there eventually cause like bush say it is a generational commitments.

Us can stay 10 years if they like. Makes no different. US no learning from the Russian experince in Afghanistan.

Ask yourself why 5000 more British troops needed in Afghanistan. The answer is the fightback has started again..... the deadtoll there will rise.

[ezekiel333]

9. Hi Lynn

Just so all who are asking lately can be informed, where does the ICCC get its information from? And how is it verified?

[LynnTheDem]

14. Gimme your snailtrail, coz I am so comin' to get ya!

:D :D :D

We monitor world-wide media and blogs and websites etc 24/7/365 for any mention of dead soldier/Iraq/wounded/soldier funeral. We do the same for Afghanistan.

For example, I use newsfeeds which search an average of 20,400 articles worldwide every 15 minutes for the keyword "Iraq". This includes blogs (even LGF, PB and FR yuck!) obits, op-eds, news, websites etc.

Whenever I find any news of soldiers' deaths I send the link to Pat at the ICCC and copy the link to the other ICCC gang, which includes another DUer. Pat sets up "slots" for each death mentioned. For example a LBN article may say "3 marines killed in mortar attack". Pat sets up 3 slots with "US marine" in each. She doesn't add these 3 to the public count yet, because the article may not be accurate and to prevent double-counting of deaths.

We only publicly post CONFIRMED deaths; we must have confirmation that the death is valid. (No freeps can "RatherGate" the ICCC!)

When there is credible confirmation we add the death(s) to the count and open public-view slots as "name not released yet" if we have no name.

Best confirmation is official confirmation from the DOD and Centcom, but if there is credible information thru media reports, we add the death and chase down DOD and Centcom for the official release. (No freeps can accuse the ICCC of making up deaths!)

We are working on separate lists for mercs killed in Iraq, and US troops who come back to the USA unwounded but who then die (suicide, sudden illness, murder, drunk-driving). These are separate lists to track the "cost" of bush's war, but are troops not injured in-theater.

The US military doesn't track mercs'/contractors' deaths, and most often the employers of mercs/contractors refuse to release any info at all.

[MrMonk]

8. More about this here . . .

http://www.dailykos.com/main/2 (as of the time of this post)

There was also a DU thread on this same subject earlier today. The "9,000" number apparently has been debunked in several places.

[warrens]

11. If they can fly the head wounds to Kuwait or Germany

They don't count, you liebaral dimocrap commie. They died in GERMANY, not IRAQ, get it, you lefty?

Snicker. These people are really the worst nazis ever. Well apart from the guys they learned from. The Rethugs are right. We aren't so far gone that we gas people. That is next, of course, but they CAN claim truthfully, one of the few cases they can, that we aren't gassing people yet.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

25. Not so fast (unfortunately).....

U.S. Accused of Using Poison Gases in Fallujah
<http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/29/1448226>

QUOTE:

Survivors of the week-long attack on Fallujah have reported the U.S. military used poison gas and other non-conventional weapons against civilians in the assault. We go to Baghdad to speak with independent reporter Dahr Jamail who broke the story.

....snip....

DAHR JAMAIL: I have interviewed many refugees over the last week coming out of Fallujah at different times from different locations within the city. The consistent stories that I have been getting have been refugees describing phosphorous weapons, horribly burned bodies, fires that burn on people when they touch these weapons, and they are unable to extinguish the fires even after dumping large amounts of water on the people. Many people are reporting cluster bombs, as well. And these are coming from the camps that I have been to, different people who have emerged from Fallujah anywhere from one week ago up to on through up toward near the very beginning of the siege.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about further knowledge of phosphorus weapons?

DAHR JAMAIL: Well, it's, weapon very similar to napalm, essentially a flammable weapon mixed with jet fuel where it dropped in a bomb, at least refugees I interviewed about this said it was a bomb that exploded and covered huge areas with fire. And then anyone that, of course, was hit with it was burned usually beyond recognition and then the fires continued to burn on the ground and if anyone went up and had any contact with the material, then they would catch on fire and people were unable to put them out.

[jojo54]

12. I think this was the original website posted about the high #

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/jim-lampley/the-ultimate-deception_2838.html

Then again, it's a story by a freeper newspaper TBRnews, so it was most likely planted.

[Internut]

13. And Lampley followed it up with this apology for

spreading disinformation:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/jim-lampley/a-poor-choice-of-sources_2891.html

[shance]

15. Let's be clear. Lampley was simply posing a potential of impropriety.

Along with posing the question and yes potential evidence,
of a potential discrepency in numbers of casualties. Let me repeat, potential. He was reporting on what he had uncovered as a possible discrepency.

However, as I have included below, he does not claim that this was proven FACT.

Being that literally the PHOTOGRAPHING and witnessing of caskets and bodies being brought back from Iraq has been banned from any and all photographers, why would those of you jump on Lampley with such a vengeance?

Family members arent even ALLOWED to meet their deceased loved one when they return until the military gives the approval. And you want to vilify Lampley?

For those of you who are prone to skewer Lampley, let me add a quote you fail to include along with your unecessarily indignant response to Lampley's "misinformation".

Perhaps its indeed largely skewed misinformation, however, atleast Lampley's is honest investigative questioning being enacted.

Mistakes are MADE AT TIMES IN REPORTING.

Some of you would also still prefer to believe mainstream media as well on many things. I don't believe the sources that Lampley reported, however I am above believing there are NOT discrepencies, including LARGE discrepencies in most or all the war coverage that is being reported to Americans.

If we can take Lampley off of the cross for a moment, here is a quote from his original assertion:

<<But I am at a loss to figure the origin of this site or the validity of its information without help, and that is what the rest of you can provide by taking a look, filtering it into the growing documentation of Iraq War deceit, and locating those who might be able to gather whether their loved one's death was honestly and fairly recorded for the act of combat heroism it may have been. In my heart I sincerely hope Harring is wrong.>>

Be accurate and fair on BOTH sides and not just one side. That's what fair reporting is all about.

[Internut]

16. The reason why Lampley behaved like an idiot in this case

is simple. He claimed that he was "at a loss to figure the ... validity of its information". Yet it takes exactly 30 seconds for anyone to find one of the sites on the net that has the list of US Iraqi casualties, for example http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/ - and on the very first page you would find:

Sgt. Ronald W. Baker 34 Company C, 39th Support Battalion, Arkansas Army National Guard Cabot, Arkansas Baker died October 13, 2004, in Landstuhl, Germany, of injuries sustained on October 7 when a car bomb detonated near his patrol vehicle in Taji, Iraq.

Which demolishes the only checkable contention in the "information" that Lampley quoted:

"... the official number has been held to 1713 by designating as Iraq deaths only those who perish on Iraqi soil. The remainder, he says, are military personnel who have died en route to Germany or in German hospitals-- casualties of the war, but not listed in the official death toll."

You would think that a journalist, before publishing such a momentous accusation, would bother to do a check, even a simple google.

[shance]

17. He 'behaved like an idiot'? Where did you see him "behave" like an idiot?

How do you know for a FACT what is accurate and what is not? How do know for a FACT that there it isn't an inaccurate figure we are being told.

FACT: YOU DONT.

Nor do I.

Do you have access to government records? EVEN THEN, is that FACT?

Do you have access to recording the numbers of coffins coming in?

Nope, but you DO have a link to CNN. Thank you for your tremendously in depth, awe inspiring investigation.

You've sold me.

[Internut]

19. I explained the reason for my opinion,

quite thoroughly, in my post. Lampley he was "at a loss" trying to figure out the "validity" of that information. I explained how anyone who knows what a search engine is (do you think Lampley does?) could figure out that the information Lampley posted was wrong, in a couple of minutes time tops. So - either Lampley is completely incompetent or lazy. If you'd like to give me a third way to describe it, go ahead.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. Ah, yes...here you go again. Trying to shut off debate by....

...attacking the messenger...who stated in his original comments that he was looking for help in verifying the validity of the link he provided. He got that assistance with the amount of emails he received complaining about TBRNews.

Has Lampley given up on checking the accuracy of the US casualty numbers? Doesn't sound like it to me, or anyone else that continues to have questions.

[shance]

23. Thanks MLD**

People are going overboard in trying to stop the slightest discussion on this topic.

[Internut]

24. If you say "soldiers who die in Germany are not included in the lists"

and I show you examples of soldiers who died in Germany and are included in the lists, am I

a. "shutting off debate"?
b. showing you're wrong?

Lampley could have checked it himself very easily, without resorting to asking for help from his readers. Journalists are supposed to do an (at least) elementary check on the information that they publish, and not doing so shows either incompetence or laziness.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. Right. Whatever you say. Keep believing what you read from the DoD.

[rfrrfrrfr]

18. Except this is a false rumor

For the morbid amongst you.

http://icasualties.org/oif /

Complete listing of iraqi casualties to date.

And the debunking of this stupid idiotic rumor at
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/20/24437/8204
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/5/19/13126/2340

[shance]

20. Thank God we have an expert to set us straight.

And I thought all was lost.

You know, the interesting thing, is there is no one here claiming other than individuals like you and a few others, that we know the answers.

We don't have the answers.

But it seems ever apparent you think you do.

We are asking questions and some, yes, are having doubts and/or some of us are defending those who have the RIGHT TO HAVE DOUBTS AND ASK QUESTIONS.

Why are you imploding, condemning and shaming others because they may have doubts and/or questions?

What is that about?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

22. Excellent response.

[OneBlueSky]

27. the truth lies somewhere between here and there . . .

here being the official 1700+ figure on American deaths . . .

and there being the TBR fiction about 9000 or more and the fudged reporting of injured who later die . . .

the truth, I'm quite sure, lies somewhere between these extremes . . . BushCo is most assuredly minimizing the numbers in any way they can . . . but certainly not to the degree TBR reports . . . (TBR being the toy of a Holocaust-denying anti-Semite who apparently is also their chief (only?) writer; doesn't like BushCo -- or most anyone else) . . .