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clar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 06:50 AM
Original message
Does The Democratic Party Need The Dean Supporters?
I beieve the nomination is Wesley Clark's to lose, and I doubt he'll blow it. Although I'm a Dean supporter, and I'm not entirely comfortable with the Clinton/DLC backing of Clark, I'll gladly vote for him. My impression of him to date, is that he's a fine candidate.
Yes, he needs to flesh out positions, and probably should have done it before announcing. No, I don't like the fact that he's not a long time democrat. But all the candidates are flawed.

So say Clark gets the nomination. What happens to the energized Dean supporters? I contend that they're important to the party, that the Dean campaign has proved that democracy can be reinvigorated and that it's possible to bring new people into the political process. Not to mention the fundraising prowess that's stunned pundits from across the political spectrum.

I hope if Clark's the nominee, he chooses Dean as his running mate. Dean's experience in domestic policy balances Clark's expertise on foreign policy. Of equal importance, is that the merging of the powerful grassroots Dean support and the Clark party insider support (and yes, Clark has some grassroots support too, but it's no where near as developed as Dean's) would be a formidable political force. I believe that the Dean machine would remain largely intact if he's the vp candidate, if he's not, I'm afraid the party would lose these folks.

Anyone care to weigh in?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yes
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Racenut20 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. Candidate "whoever" needs you
I see the Dean supporters as real Democrats with a message to convey. That role will be important to offset the barrage of crap coming from the other side, even if Governor Dean is not the nominee (which is yet to be decided, isn't it?)
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. regardless of who gets the nod ...
they are going to need the supporters of the other candidates. That is why it is counterproductive for a CANDIDATE to smear another candidate. It is reletively easy to shine on the comments made by supporters but when the candidate him or herself does it, the pill becomes quite bitter.

That's where Holy Joe is blowing it in a big way. Heat of the moment stuff has been uttered by each but this seems to be Holy Joe's main schitck.
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clar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I'm beginning to believe
that Joe's self-destructive, and that he's going to torpedo himself out of the running by the end of the year.

And yes, whoever the nominee is he will need the supporters of the other candidates. But, I'm contending that Dean's supporters are unique to the process. I'm not knocking other campaigns here. I'm simply noting that Dean has organized a vocal, active and financially important army. Can the party afford to lose them?
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
5. This Dean supporter is not a fan of Clark
I don't like generals becoming president or VP without holding some civilian political office beforehand and doing well in that office. Also proving that they can win re-election in that office is an important indicator of their civilian political skill. Eisenhower was at best a mediocre president.

The nomination is not Clark's to lose. He has no political campaign experience nor experience working in a civilian political office. Clark's poll numbers are based upon a bubble of name recognition.

I don't want Clark to win the nomination or be Dean's VP. At best, Secretary of Defense, but the more I learn about Clark the less I'm liking him. There is an insincereity in his eyes and pictures of him make him look like a Dauphin prince. That vapid grin is unsettling and my female intuition is blaring loudly that Clark is a modern Iago.
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. I COMPLETELY agreew with you Larkspur
Edited on Tue Sep-23-03 07:51 AM by seventhson
The Dean forces need to out Clark for his militaristic background where he was an integral part of the Republican team.

Yes, I think it is critical that we back Clark if he becomes the nominee - but unless he really shows me something that contradicts his case history as a Pentagon yes man - he really worries me a lot.

Granted, even the Pentagon sees what a loser and psycho Bush and Rummy are and they pissed --- but that does NOT make them the Democratic saviours.

Larkspur is on the money.
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tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. Are we really going to go into bashing people's LOOKS now?
Dauphin prince?

Vapid smile?

Seriously?

Don't hate Clark because he's beautiful, LOL. A lot of player haters on this board, methinks.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. No, but many of us ARE going to follow our instincts
In the end, thats the best compass there is.
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returnable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
32. This is what drives me nuts
I had no issue with the concerns you outlined at the beginning of your post. Those are valid points and worth discussing.

But this:

"There is an insincereity in his eyes and pictures of him make him look like a Dauphin prince. That vapid grin is unsettling and my female intuition is blaring loudly that Clark is a modern Iago."

That's just character assasination.

For me, it undermines your (more valid) points.

Did ya catch the piece on John Stewart about Howard Dean's inability to smile naturally?

Pretty funny. Pretty true.

And not particularly important to a political discussion.

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. Every non-Bushista needs every other non-Bushista.
I do agree that Dean would make the best running mate for Clark.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
7. Heck yeah
Edited on Tue Sep-23-03 07:14 AM by gottaB
:dem:

We need all the supporter we can get.

I wouldn't speculate about where Dean supporters would go should he not be nominated. Truth be told nine of the ten won't get the nomination. It's a possibility we should all be prepared for. Even Clark supporters. (Sorry, I disagree with calling it this soon.) We need to keep our eyes on the prize.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. Remember the Democratic Party was dying under Clinton's term
and it accelerated after last year's 2002 debacle. Dean is the hope for the Democratic Party's future. Clinton could generate enthusiasm for himself, but he could not direct that to helping the Democratic Party grow.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Really? Gore WON! nt
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. I was talking about people leaving the Dem Party and turning
Independent.

My town over the last few years has gone from a predominantly Democratic haven to one where Independents are the majority. People left the Dem Party because they were sick of the "me-too" Dem politics.

These Independents are progressive on social issues but fiscally conservative, and they may vote Dem, but they choose not to be called Democrats. That is what I meant that the Dem Party is dying.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. A little messianic, isn't it?
This is why I don't think the Deaniacs will ever be content with their man being second on the ticket. I think with a lot of them it's all or nothing.

Bake
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EagleEye Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
10. DId you read excerpts from Dean's speech?
The Dem Party absolutely needs Dean as the Nominee. He is energizing. The speech for Boston today is inspriational. No other major candidate can do this. Did you see Clark's announcement? He has no articulated posiitons (domestic) and no oratory skills. I like him, but this is not his to lose. He doesn't even have an organization.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Dean.html
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
11. No.
I am not going to be rail-roaded by a hand-selected and DLC groomed military-industrial stooge to defend the Establisment status quo - who has demonstrated NO understanding or grasp of domestic policy and who will be savaged by the Right on past military bungling. it is a joke.

I am sorry but he may may be parading around in a general's uniform but he ain't wearing a stitch.

I see potential in Dean's purpose as an opportunity for the Democratic party--encompassing a big tent, to right this party again. It may not be progressive enough for me personally, but it is the best chance we have to realistically reverse course.

If it came to it I might even consider one of the other candidates who demonstrated a solid Democratic record and worked their way up the ranks but I will not be dazzled by a military brass band and the attendant hoopla to bow to another candidate served up on a platter.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. Dean is civillian and proven electorally
And with the military-industrial complex needing to be put in its place, I don't think a Clark nomination would even be appropriate. The Democrats need to send the message that the military takes orders from civilian leaders, not the reverse.

Clark is a late-comer Democrat, and late to the race; personally, I think his timing seems suspicious and rather more a way for the DLC to try and prevent Dean from winning the nomination. They want a faux-liberal president who can be controlled on economic issues.

I believe Clark when he talks about Iraq, but extremely skeptical on the rest.

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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. same here
Edited on Tue Sep-23-03 02:50 PM by JVS
I need a lot more information on Clark
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
12. I think Clark and Dean
already have an agreement to pick each other as VP if either wins the nomination. Thats my guess of what went on during their meeting together and think this is a great idea to keep the WH for 4 terms, if and only IF the electronic "voting" method is addressed.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Dean is not even thinking about VP at this point
He may be the front-runner, but he has not sown up the nomination, so thinking about a VP at this point is ludicrous. And why would he want a political neophyte to be his VP anyway? Clark is at best suited for Secretary of Defense, not VP.

What Dean asked Clark was if Clark chose not to run, would Clark join Dean's Campaign, not would Clark be Dean's VP.
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Kira Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
13. I am NOT ready
to give up hope on Dean winning the nomination. I am tired of the media telling us who are candidate will be. I will support whoever the nominee is and he will need everyone's support. But I will not concede the nomination to Clark.
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EagleEye Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. The fact that that would even be an option is strange.
Do people actually think that one week into Clark's campaign he has proven anything other than the power of the media to get his name out there? Dean is still the frontrunner for this nomination. He has the organization, the money, the message, the skills.
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Brian Sweat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. Nor should you.
The first primary is still about four months away. It is silly to make assumptions based on a jump in the polls. Clark's number can go down just as fast as they went up. I am a Clark supporter, but I do not think Clark or Dean will get the nomination. It will probably be a Democratic insider like Kerry, but maybe Edwards.
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HPLeft Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
14. We Need Everybody
I don't agree that Clark will hold the lead. He is much too green to handle the blistering heat of being a front-runner. He's going to have to answer questions about his Iraq War vote flip-flop from now through the Spring, and I don't know that he's got the experience to pull that off without looking clueless. And many Democrats are not cool with his votes for Reagan and Bush 41. And I expect that there'll be other issues where he's not ready for prime time.

Obviously, to win, the Democrats needs their entire base and a good number of indedpendants. That includes the folks who are putting their hopes in Howard Dean as well as every other candidate. Come the fall of 2004, we'll discover whether Democrats and Progessives are emotionally mature enough to make the only sensible decision - that is, to unite behind whichever candidate emerges, and return Dubya to the Crawford outhouse from whence he came.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
15. Only time will tell but I don't believe
I will have the motivation for another candidate as I do Howard Dean. I became empowered through the Dean campaign. I've always been a democrat, as my father and mother were but never have I wanted to fight and stand behind a candidate as I do Dean. I got into some healthy debates when Clinton was charging up for his initial election but nothing like what I am doing today with the Dean momentum.

I may just become a tad complacent.

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union_maid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
17. The party needs everyone
I have no idea who's going to win the nomination. I support Clark because, among other things, I think he'd have the best shot in the general election, but that doesn't necessarily translate into winning the nomination. So, I'm Clark first, ABB second and among those I have my preferences, but will give total support to whoever wins. Do do less is to vote for Bush. No matter how you spin it, that's what it is. Even electing Lieberman, which is a most unlikely scenario, would at least be a repudiation of Bush himself, if not some of his policies.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
21. If he wins the nomination, he wins the nomination
and I'll vote for him in the General Election. But work for his campaign? Nope. He doesn't inspire the energy and enthusiasm that Governor Dean does for me. He doesn't have the charisma Dean does that acts as a catapult for action by ordinary individuals. Additionally, I know little about Clark's position on important issues and what little is known is way too conservative for this liberal. The fact that the DLC seems to be backing him via Clinton is another black mark. We DESPERATELY need to get rid of the DLC "leadership" and voting in one of their "chosen" sends the wrong message.

So far his candidacy reminds me of "Ahnold's." His supporters seem to be the abrasive, macho, "let's kick some ass" too-much-testosterone type of individuals that have an inability to give serious consideration to those arguing an opposite view which also reminds me of George "I don't CARE what you think" Bush. I understand that every campaign has those types of individuals but, for the most part, they're in the minority. This is not true with Clark supporters wherein they seem to be the VAST majority. Add to that, the support is blind. How can people possibly support a candidate when they don't even know his/her positions on the issues? Again, it's that whole military, "just follow orders" mentality which goes with the macho posturing.

If he wins, I'll vote for him just to get Bush* OUT but Boxer is up for re-election this year and I'd rather put my energies into re-electing a true liberal.
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
23. clark's a democrat of expediency only
... and i hope the party won't succumb to his sleazy charm.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I agree
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
27. WHY DEAN IS DIFFERENT
it seems I have to weigh in on this every day, there's that many folks here who haven't really examined the Dean campaign. Now, I'll take you at your word that you are a Dean supporter.

This is important! Bear with me. Did you notice something "special" at your meetings?

What I'm referring to is the presence of Deans support from the "66%"; those folks that have not been involved in politics for the past ten years if ever. The 66% of eligible Americans who haven't voted for awhile because they haven't seen anything worth voting for.

30-40% of Deans support comes from those folk. Off the radar totally, not even remotely likely voter. Non voter if anything. These folks are energized by Howard Dean articulating what they have long felt! THIS is a HUGE difference between us and any other candidacy out there. We really ARE the grass roots. We aren't necessarily worried about the "swing voter". Not when we are tapping into the massive numbers ( maybe 10x the swing vote!) of the disaffected. So worry about Clark, it's all well and good. He's a good man. But there is no way in hell his people are going to run the kind of campaign we are. It's apples and oranges.

Pay attention to the end of the month. We're raising FIVE MILLION DOLLARS just to show we CAN. Nobody can touch us for fundraising. Nobody. Because we're doing it with nickels and dimes, on the iternet, we don't rent a room, we don't serve rubber chicken, we just collect money, honey, and THAT will be the ultimate difference in this campaign. This really is all about each and every one of YOU.

YOU.

With luck we can get the honorable Clark supporters with us too. They want what we want, what we all want, and what we have the power to do:

TAKE THIS COUNTRY BACK!
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Keep preachin'.
That's the facts, Jack.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Amen and Hallelujah Brother
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
33. In a word
yes.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
34. I'm a Democrat first and foremost
If Clark wins the nomination, I'm on board and hell bent on getting him into the WH next November--- period!
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Northwind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
35. The party needs the Dean supporters
But Dean supporters do not need the party.
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
36. I love your suggestion...

"I hope if Clark's the nominee, he chooses Dean as his running mate. Dean's experience in domestic policy balances Clark's expertise on foreign policy. Of equal importance, is that the merging of the powerful grassroots Dean support and the Clark party insider support (and yes, Clark has some grassroots support too, but it's no where near as developed as Dean's) would be a formidable political force. I believe that the Dean machine would remain largely intact if he's the vp candidate, if he's not, I'm afraid the party would lose these folks."

They'd be an amazing team. In addition, I noticed their positions on the issues mirror one another from Iraq to Gun Control.

I am mourning Dean's fall to second place, as he worked so hard. I am also mourning for Kerry and others. Though it's still early and anything is possible :shrug:
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
37. We got out there and campaign for Clark
Was this a trick question?
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
38. I'm there. I would support either one.
:hi:
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mw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
39. I'll vote for a tree before I vote for a Bush
Clark, Kerry, Dean, a goat, it don't matter. They got my vote in 04.

I think Dean/Clark looks the best. We'll see.

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