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McGovern and Clark...Clark and McGovern...

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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:50 PM
Original message
McGovern and Clark...Clark and McGovern...
No, I'm not suggesting a P/VP ticket.

McGovern and Clark...Clark and McGovern...

Yes, different generations and different wars.

Clark and McGovern...McGovern and Clark...

Anyone seeing the hypocrisy here?

McGovern the Liberator pilot and Clark the general...Clark behind the lines and McGovern in a B-24 taking shrapnel over Germany...

Clark the electable, conservative, behind-the-lines general...McGovern the unelectable, moderate (truth be told), winner of the Distinguished Flying Cross...

Anyone seeing the hypocrisy here?
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Clark got the shit shot out of himself in Vietnam.
Bad post. Bad metaphor.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. perhaps so.
If someone will explain to me, then, how Clark becomes an American hero and McGovern becomes a byword for "communist" I'll retract the comparison.
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. I'm not here to do anything but ...
point out the facts, usually in the snarkiest fashion possible. :D

Wesley got wounded several times in Vietnam, highly decorated, the whole enchilada. I think he did three tours in the hell hole. Ironically, one of West Point professors noted that he was the first West Point Cadet in his memory to question why we were involved in Viet Nam.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. fair enough.
I didn't do my research on Clark in enough depth. Kudos to him.

Still, and by comparison, McGovern flew 35 combat flights over Europe. By what stretch of logic is he made out to be the poster boy for Dem weakness on defense?
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. i don't think it's contradictory
personal valor on the part of a president does not equate to strength in "national defense". why should it? if McGovern had been elected, it's not as though his past WWII exploits would have protected America in any real sense. in the minds of many people, a strong national defense implies a huge military budget, with funding for every imaginable weapons system, and an aggressive posture regarding the use of military force.

i don't agree with that view, but a lot of people do. that's (one reason) why the smear against McGovern worked. McGovern's medals were (properly) regarded as irrelevant to the question of being "strong (or weak) on defense". being a brave war hero doesn't necessarily mean you have any special insight on how to win a war or conduct foreign policy.

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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. Different times in history
Nothing more, nothing less. Did I mention that Nixon machine?
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. I like easy questions
The right wing smear machine got to McGovern better than 30 years ago.

They've only just started on Clark.

That's why McGovern got falsely accused of being a communist, and why Clark hasn't been. Yet. Give the Replutocans time, they'll get around to it.
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iambe Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. No.
Keep trying, though. I'm sure you'll get a negative post out of it eventually.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. C'mon kids, behave youselves
If you don;t settle down, we'll put you in the "time out chair"
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. That's ridiculous
When I hear the name McGovern the first name that pops to mind is Dean of the candidates running.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. fake meme.
Try again.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Don't worry it says more about his loose associations than anything
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. FYI
Clark was shot in the leg, hip, hand and shoulder in Vietnam.

Not sure what your point is.
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Bertrand Donating Member (764 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Delete
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 11:10 PM by Bertrand
misinterpreted your post, i think.
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TennesseeWalker Donating Member (925 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
8. I see that YOU should stop doing the right wing's work for them.
Quit giving them silly memes like McGovern/Clark/Dean....it doesn't work. All the Dem candidates should be judged by their positions on issues...you guys are making it out to be a WWE wrestling match. Shallow in a different kind of way.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. Your passion has gotten the best of you, Uly...
Clark is no conservative. McGovern is no moderate. As a former McGovern supporter who now supports Clark, I see nothing at all hypocritical here. But if you want to explain in more detail, I'll listen.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. no.
It has done so at times, but not here. I may have been mistaken about Clark's experience in Vietnam, but my point still stands. McGovern was no wild-eyed progressive - ask Will Pitt - and I'll put his war record against Clark's any day. Yet McGovern, a man who flew through the flak and air defenses over Germany 35 times, is pilloried as the epitome of Democratic weakness on defense. Why?
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Because the Republicans successfully smeared McGovern.
They're good at it. They've done it for years. It's all they do.
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. He's been painted as soft of defense because the Pukes got
away with it. Spinelss Dems aren't a 21st Century invention. The Democrats needed to fight back then and as they have to now.
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
12. Both served there countries. McGovern as a B24 pilot and Clark
as a company commander in Vietnam. Both were decorated but McGovern has the higher award with the DFC and both were wounded. For the life of me, I don't see any hypocrisy but I do see 2 men that served their countries well unlike the Deserter in the White House. :shrug:
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's not hypocrisy Uly, it's contradiction
and YES realpolitik is FULL of contradiction. Were it not, Bush an awol deserer would have never gotten elected.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. that's my point, Teena.
I can recognize realpolitik. I can also not accept its limits as the limits of what can be achieved.

I refuse the idea that a moderate Democratic candidate and war hero can be continually castigated by his own party as a symbol of failure and liberal worthlessness.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Oh I completely agree
There are very few McGovern bashers on DU who were even drinking out of cup when he ran.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
21. Repubs alway miss part two of Clark or Dean = McGovern baloney
...Then by extension Bush = Nixon.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. time for bed.
Talk to y'all tomorrow.
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