Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

This election is too important to nominate another McGovern

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:03 PM
Original message
This election is too important to nominate another McGovern
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 07:04 PM by quinnox
I think all the Dems can agree this is a critical election coming up in 2004. Bush must go, he can't be allowed to do any more damage. One more term of Bush, and there might be another Great Depression or endless wars. The Democratic party can't afford to nominate another McGovern. Yes, I am talking about Dean. In the newest poll he does the worst among the top tier candidates in a match up with Bush.

Since it is so imperative to beat Bush, the party should nominate the candidate with the best chance of winning. And that candidate appears to be either Clark or Kerry at this moment. These polls can change, but Dean is not a strong candidate to field in a general election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yawn
Uncle Karl thanks you.

We'll take somebody who DIDN'T think the war was fine and dandy, OK?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. you one issue people are the boring ones
so one vote makes a career? yawn.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
72. Join up!
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 09:09 PM by RapidCreek
How about New YorkerinIraq? Got a kid over there? How about a husband or a wife?

One issue eh?

Some of us great unwashed simpletons, who can't comprehend your deep George Will type intellect, don't appreciate candidates who believe it's ok to use the US Military as mercenaries. We, in our one dimensional thinking, recognize that a vote to give an AWOL junta the exclusive power to declare world war 3 has a vast set of side effects.

Perhaps you armchair commentators should consider the following.... A candidate who can rationalize the offensive invasion of a sovereign nation....an invasion which has and is resulting in the needless deaths of thousands of people, an invasion costing us billions, which could have been used to fund socialized health care among many other things, an invasion that was clearly undertaken with the intent of inflating the bottom line of a few corporations, that's a candidate who has rationalized some pretty evil shit. The residual effects of which decimate almost everything the Democratic Party has fought for over the past 50 years and make anything they seek to do from here on in "unaffordable". It's a candidate who has demonstrated he or she is more than willing to throw his or her constituency under the bus when "politically expedient". It's pretty damn difficult to realize a return on investment of my tax dollars when they are being used to bribe other countries, purchase tools by which to murder and maim my fellow human beings and pay Administration sponsors to "rebuild" that which those same dollars were used to destroy. This sort of behavior is endemic of a mindset that allot of us find pretty disturbing.

YES one vote does make or break a Career. One vote can define a career and the one we are speaking of, is such a vote. I find it rather odd that this escapes some people....particularily the nutless, chikenshit assholes who made it....even more so those dimwits who dismiss it as a mere triviality.

Yawn? I hope you're of a draft eligible age and sex....or you have a kid that is....we'll see how much yawning you're doing while you or yours humps an M-16 for Halliburton. God damn we need a draft in this country...if only to wake up folks like yourself. Hell it'll happen sooner or later....it has to....after all that 'one vote' can and most likely will, lead to lots and lots of trivial little wars.

RC
USN Vet
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #72
80. So who's a chikenshit a**h***?
Me? or Kerry? or Bush? Who started the war?
I have no problem sending myself to a "just" war. Which this isn't, and this is not what Kerry voted for.
But you see what you want to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. wank, wank, wank
Polls, yadda yadda.

:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. *snif*
No one will fight with me any more... :(

:evilgrin:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I have a mirror if you need one newsguy
just in case you're not very good at self analysis.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
35. All he'd see in the mirror is that...
He's fucking HOT! :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. What's that supposed to mean?
Are you implying that you have the authority to tombstone a poster or influence the moderators and admins to tombstone someone on your behalf? I highly doubt that's the case, and I also highly doubt those who run this site would appreciate what your post implies. Have some respect.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #38
56. Well, I'm still here
and I guess newsguy is too. (click on the profile to see what I mean)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. It must suck to be BEHIND unelectable material
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 07:08 PM by AWD
I suppose I'd cry like a scholgirl too if my candidate couldn't get close to an unelectable guy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Northwind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. Um...yeah


How much has Kerry's copycat wannabe bat raised in the last week again?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Uh, oh...
...The Bat is back.

Quick....JFK needs to copy it. Can we be the ball? No, wait...can we be the pitcher? No, wait. Let's be the hammer! Yeah, that's original!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pruner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. the funniest thing about the Kerry Hammer (aside from the total) is
that the night he put it up on the site several posters on his blog were taking credit for the idea and many others were congratulating them on what a great idea it is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
59. Kinda like Deanies saying Dean's environmental plan
shows his genius, when any political amateur can see he cribbed most of it from Kerry who actually WORKED on environmental matters for over 30 years.

Same thing when you compare the speech Dean gave on foreign policy a few months after Kerry. No impartial person could deny that Dean's sounded very much like Kerry's, even though Dean was desperate for foreign policy advice as recently as late January according to Gary Hart... "Gary, what do I do?"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Somebody nudge the record player
...it's skipping again.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. Lieberman has a goalpost
he's trying to get a "3rd quarter touchdown"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. McGovern's are impossible in modern politics....
It's all about the numbers.

The best candidate to do the job will shake out in the spring.

Patience.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. who's the 2004 McGovern, onehandle?
Dean? Kucinich? Sharpton? Who?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
40. Hillary
;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. ok, now that we have that out of the way...
Come on, man. We've talked face to face. You're buying the McGovern thing - is Dean really McGovern? If not, who is?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. I tire of the flamefests around here....
The resident trolls at DU Love it. I was trying to calm things.

There are no "McGoverns".

Bush will win or lose.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. It's what we do in GD my friend
There are no "McGoverns".

Honestly? Would that there were.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #51
75. Yea no kidding
What an insult :eyes:. To bad he isn't running.

RC
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. Buying the Rove hype a bit?
There are prescription medicines that can help.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. No....there's NO prescription that deals with hatred and jealousy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
39. I am not sure
While I get your point, I hear that sufficient quantities of prozac can get you to smile about anything!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
16. handily enough, McGovern isn't running!
And neither is anyone from his family! So we can all focus on getting Bush the hell out of office, instead of trying to shred all the Democratic candidates at this point...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
18. We are not nominating "McGovern" ..we are working for
:dem: DEAN'04 :kick:


"Howard Dean does have a playbook, but it's stylistic more than verbal: say it straight, don't dither, be clear, show no doubt or fear, act like only a lunatic would disagree with you, never apologize or back down in defending Democratic principles, paint your Democratic opponents as mealy-mouthed appeasers, blast Bush as a far-right whack job. I am tempted to label Howard Dean's approach as an inspired shtick, but that would be unfair to Howard Dean. It is a shtick, of course, though a fundamentally honest one. The true genius of Howard Dean, is that somewhere down the line he's figured out that if you strip away all the artifice from your political persona and lose the carefully calibrated public posturing that every politician learns to do early, if you just say what you say in private in public--in the same way you say it in private--people will respond. In that sense, Howard Dean's greatest political masterstroke was deciding to just be Howard Dean." Sandeep Kaushik May 21, 2003
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
19. you know you're going to get flamed
you're argument is right. I don't know how people like us are going to go about defeating him in the primary

I threw out an idea earlier that should have been worded better, or something, but it's too important to not say. He is the weakest candidate of those who have the ability to win the nom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Uncle Karl thanks you
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Democrats who want to win thank you
is willful ignorance suddenly the MO of the day? Did I not get the memo?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. Yea, I knew it
But this is too important an issue to let flaming dissuade me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
85. no problem MrSegretti
working to defeat other democrats and create permanent divisions and distrust is a GREAT thing. :eyes:

Let the primaries play themselves out. It is called democracy. Of course there is always the segretti way....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
95. Did you bother to look at the latest gallup polls?
we have 5, count them, 5 candidates that are within the margin of error to beat Bush NOW and its over a year till the elections. Guess what... DEAN IS AMONG THEM. So your arguement is not based on any facts I know of. Where is Edwards?????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
21. Can't nominate Kerry because he's a liberal
and everyone knows liberals aren't "electable". If Kerry is the nominee it will be a 49 state landslide for Bush just like McGovern. Let's not forget Dukakis...we all know how well the last Mass. liberal did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. I see you got your Rove memo too
can you try a little harder than that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. You mean harder than the author of this thread?
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
37. He's a liberal who's liked and respected by non-liberals as a whole
Kerry is and will be given props as someone they could imagine or outright like as there president all across the spectrum up until died in the wool republicans.

Dean appeals to those who were against the war.

The case can be made that every serious candidate excluding Leiberman is more or less a liberal. A Keynseyan, a populist, a progressive.

But the distinction with Dean is the perception that he has in many ways created for himself. That people like Gephardt and Kerry are not liberal enough be "real democrats" and he is the one that is the democrat from the liberal wing wing of the party and they aren't.

If you can't make that distiction, you're not being objective enough. Dean is as political as any other candidate. His supporters have bought his self proclamation of being a straight-talker, but that is the ultimate hypocracy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. Have you bothered to research Lieberman's voting record?
Still one of the most progressive amongst Democratic lawmakers.

What was that you were saying about "objectivity?"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #37
49. I wasn't against the war OR for the war
And people support Dean for a lot of different reasons. You're just repeating what you see in the media, and the media was lazy about reporting on Dean. Also, Dean never claimed to be a liberal. He's never ran as a liberal. The press just assumed he was an anti-war liberal because he was against the war. They were wrong. Sure, the anti-war people looked at Dean because he was against the war, but after looking at his record they could tell he wasn't a liberal. It's kind of condascending to assume that people just support someone without actually learning about them first. Maybe that's what you do when choosing a candidate, but it's really not my style. Based on what I've read from other Dean supporters, they are fully aware of the same record of Dean's that I am. Yes, Dean is political, but his political style is to just be himself. Basically, until you learn to accept that Dean's supporters have known he's not a liberal all along and that they aren't supporting him just because they were against the war, you will never understand why he's ahead of the others.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #49
61. what do you think "democratic wing of the party"
it's code language. Dean might not be a liberal according to the guy with the ponytail in Cambridge, but you have to understand hat his and most other democrats being a liberal is what is accepted.

If Dean isn't a liberal then Bush isn't a conservative.

It has become accepted that in the realm of foreign policy being a conservative is being hawkish and being a liberal is the opposite. In the realm of income taxes, being a conservative is lowering them and being a liberal is the opposite

And they are supporting him because he was against the war. Not "Just", but that is the root appeal, it's what has drawn them in, and the main thing they attack about his opponents.

Electability is not close to the main motivating factor for his supporters. He latched on to the movement at it's hight and he has reaped the rewards.

If Enron had happened at that time, Edwards would probably have been dominating. If Kyoto protocal had been the big news event, maybe it'd still be Kerry.

The war is what his rise HAS been all about. Everything stems off of it. If you're not knee jerk, anti-war, your the exception to the rule
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. Gosh, I've always been under the impression that Democrats
come in all varieties. So you're saying the only "real" democrats are liberals? I think there are lots of people who would be offended by that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #71
83. No, that's what Dean says
According to him, democrats should be democrats. Meaning, Democrats should be like him.

It's Jesse Jackson-like liberal litmus-testing.

He's a demagogue
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #61
73. And one more thing...
Dean was against the war long before anyone even noticed and it wasn't "drawing them in". What drew people in was the fact that he fired them up in that DNC Winter speech. Why did he fire them up? Because he had the balls to say what they had all been thinking and wishing someone would say. Why did he say it? Because he campaigns as Howard Dean, and Howard Dean was thinking the same things his supporters were. He drew people in because he wasn't being a political coward. The fact that he opposed the war was talked about in the press BECAUSE of the response to his speech from him BEING HIMSELF and showing political courage to speak for the people. It all comes back to the same thing no matter how you try to claim otherwise...he had big balls of steel when everyone else was being too cautious and not standing up for Democrats. Dean stood up proudly and loudly and THAT is what got the attention of those who support him. Kerry could have voted against the war and still pussy footed around Bush and he's still be in the same boat he's in now. It's the same with the others so many are disgusted with. Stop blaming Dean for "stealing" supporters from them. They are responsible for their own actions, and especially their inactions. Stop making excuses for their lackluster performance. Dean has worked HARD and been courageous and he has EARNED every last one of his supporters by standing up for what they believe. And THAT is why he "represents the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
50. Hmmmm
Dean appeals to those who were against the war.

Hmmmm....so Dean appeals to the anti-war.

You have made hundrerds of anti-Dean comments.

So ergo, you are against the anti-war guy?

How many Iraqi children are you in favor of killing???? Clearly you favor war and murder, so how many???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #50
68. yeah, I'm against Dean so I'm pro-infanticide
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 08:35 PM by Bombtrack
I'm not pro-war, I definetly disagreed with the handling and planning of the war, but it's inflammatory and frankly idiotic accusations like that, that make me not anti-war.

I'm anti-dogmatic knee-jerk propaganda regurgitation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #68
79. There's no need for you to "regurgitate propaganda."
It appears you are making it up as you go along.

Frankly, it's rather comical.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
22. Why not Bush
If we nominated him with the Demo votes and the Repugs too we would be assured of victory in 04.
Dam I am a genius.

Oh wait that wont work he is already taken. How about McCain ? He has it all a goodly number of Repugs support him and he is a war hero to boot?
Dam I am good.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
94. don't forget powell
the other republican some democrats used to swoon over. apparently though, he's fallen from grace :thumbsdown:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
23. Kerry used to be my second choice
thanks to a few people here and his own behavior he is now third and falling. If he loses Ohio by a vote if Dean happens to drop out I will be glad to let them know why.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
25. Ya!
But me thinks the one best able to whoop *'s ass is Clark. Both Kerry and Clark would be awesome presidents, IMO, but the number one thing on our agenda should be GETTING RID OF THE * VERMIN.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
diplomats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
27. He's within 3 points of Bush
He's gained quite a bit. Dean is not my first choice, but I don't think the McGovern analogy works since Bush is now at 50 percent in the polls. In order to have a McGovern/Mondale scenario you need to have a popular incumbent, and Bush doesn't qualify by a long shot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Don't ask the broken record to change itself
They have Karl's talking points, and they're not changing them until told to do so!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
30. A thread perfectly proving my point
here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

And oh -- the notion that "Dean is not a strong candidate to field in a general election" is mere opinion, and not one that's well-founded in fact or reality. It's also NEVER supported with any documentation or other kinds of support. Never. Wonder why that could be?

Eloriel
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #30
48. like it was the opinion that the tigers weren't playoff material in April
There was just a gallup poll out today that shows Dean would do the worst against Bush of any top dem candidate.

The fact that he apposed invasion outright would HURT him more than it could would ever HELP him. The probable upcoming positives(Iraqui constitution, parliament, elections, as well as captures and WMD's turning up) would inevitably deepen the already signifigant majority of voters who think decision was right.

The fact that he would raise middle class income taxes would, like Mondale, be disastrous everywhere politically.

the fact that he is from socialist congressman electing - Vermont, where he signed a civil unions bill, would HURT him more than it would ever HELP him everywhere.

The majority of state and federal democratic candidates would avoid campaigning or even associating with him and many of his polices.

Of course political science is never exact, but it's usually pretty close.

When 99 out of a hundred GOP strategists, pollsters, and analysts are crossing there fingers for his victory in the nomination, you have do be brainwashed or beligerant to ignore it
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FlemingsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. So... How's Edwards polling?
It's unlikely he'll win anything come November 2004, yet there you are supporting him.

How about giving everyone else the option to support a "losing cause," if they wish.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. It said no such thing
and I showed as much in my post on this thread. They are within the MOE of each other.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Don't bother
...it's no use arguing with the guy in favor of killing Iraqi civilians.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #48
78. that's one of the goofiest analogies i've seen...
let's examine it....

So people knew the Tiger's weren't playoff material in April....

Hmmmmmm.......did 2/3rds of the teams not know who was on the team? Did the sports casters? the fans?

were the Tigers raising Yankee level cash?

Give me a break....this is nothing more than mental masturbation....you sit at home spewing this nonsense while i'll be out registering dems, independents, and cross-over republicans to vote and canvassing for my candidate....really, the level of self importance and need to will the people to adopt your view of the world is a little over the top....

Everybody really needs to get over themselves and try and work hard for their candidates....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CMT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
32. Now, now--Dean is within the margin of error in the latest poll
Among Registered voters Bush leads Dean by only 49-46 percent. That is better than Al Gore, the VP of the United States was doing against Bush at this time in 1999. Dean is electable and has a strong grass roots army of volunteers (already over 400,000) who will GOTV on election day like never before--that in itself will add another 3-4 points on election day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
33. Just look at the latest Gallup poll...
even you folks that think that you're smarter than the electorate, can vote your heart...all of our candidates are within the MOE.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
damnraddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
36. Ok, understood, I won't support any McGovern. Instead, I'm supporting ...
Dean.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
41. Your utter lack of intellectual honesty is breathtaking
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 07:50 PM by dsc
http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/2003-09-...

Here is what you decided to leave out. I think no thinking person wonders why.

7. If former Vermont Governor Howard Dean were the Democratic Party's candidate and George W. Bush were the Republican Party's candidate, who would you be more likely to vote for Howard Dean, the Democrat or George W. Bush, the Republican?


Dean Bush Neither Other No opinion
NATIONAL ADULTS 2003 Sep 19-21 45 49 3 1 2
REGISTERED VOTERS 2003 Sep 19-21 46 49 2 1 2

9. If Massachusetts Senator John Kerry were the Democratic Party's candidate and George W. Bush were the Republican Party's candidate, who would you be more likely to vote for John Kerry, the Democrat or George W. Bush, the Republican?


Kerry Bush Neither Other No opinion
NATIONAL ADULTS 2003 Sep 19-21 47 48 2 1 2
REGISTERED VOTERS 2003 Sep 19-21 48 47 2 1 2

Results are based on telephone interviews with 1,003 National Adults, aged 18+, conducted September 19-21, 2003. For results based on the total sample of National Adults, one can say with 95% confidence that the margin of sampling error is 3 percentage points.


end of quote

I can't quite get the table to work so you will have to note that the order of the numbers and the names are the same. But to get to the point. Unlike you who chose to leave all this out USA Today was intellectually honest. With a margin of error of 3 points not only are Bush and Kerry tied, as well as Bush and Dean, but they are tied with each other. Barring utter ignorance you knew that. You knew that this poll shows NO STATISTICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ANY OF OUR CANIDATES IN REGARDS THEIR SHOWING WITH BUSH. Yet you chose to tell us a different story. One you liked. It is sad you percieve your candidate to be so poor in quality that you can't be intellectually honest in his defense.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
69. Dean hasn't even been slammed with one negative add
of which there will be a ton in the general election. They'll use Dean's own words to hang him. Plus if there is another attack (the type which would be very difficult to prevent) the nation will not elect Howard Dean as commander in chief.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. more intellectual dishonesty
please list the negative ads against Kerry et al. Can you say none? I knew you could.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frank frankly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
43. sorry
but even the polls don't match your claims, anymore.

Dean will win if he's nominated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Like I said...
...the broken record won't change itself.

When Uncle Karl gives them their new talking points, they'll abandon this one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PAMod Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
52. Dean is within the MOE in today's poll, is raising more money, & has the..
best organization in the Democratic field.

Dean is actually in the BEST position to beat Bush.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
53. Hmm maybe I should start another rape thread
since we're all repeating ourselves lately. WTF you can't read this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Upfront Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
54. Yawn
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
55. So what is he? McGovern incarnate or a republican in sheep's clothing?
:eyes:
Keep throwing them both out until one sticks, huh?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LightTheMatch Donating Member (572 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
63. McGovern of 2004?
Hmmm, if you went strictly by a definition of McGovern, that would be a war hero who was against a particular war....... which would be........ CLARK!

And I think he could win in 2004 also, so basically there are NO McGoverns in this election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
65. This election is too important to nominate a Trojan Horse
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
66. Dean has taken McGovern's populism, Truman's firey straight-talking,
Carter's ethics, Clinton's ability to connect and Gore's intellect and wisdom. Dean is the combination of some of the best qualities of many past Democratic candidates.

Dean Is the New McCain
And the new Carter, and Goldwater, and McGovern, and Reagan
By Julia Turner
Posted Thursday, August 7, 2003, at 3:48 PM PT
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086718 /

Also, unlike McGovern's low budget campaign of an army of volunteers, Dean is well funded. In fact Dean is the best funded of any of the Democratic candidates.

Unlike McGovern, Dean is a centrist. McGovern was a liberal Goldwater, IMHO. Dean is a passionate centrist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
67. The new style of Dem-Bashing - call them a "McGovern"
What's next, we'll be calling them a Dukasis or Mondale

Once again

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. SHHHHH!!!!
Don't say "Dukakis".

It reminds them of another failure from Massachusetts and it upsets the whiners.

Besides, Uncle Karl hasn't given them orders on how to handle that one yet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
76. I'm Just a Dem Who Wants to Win n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
77. Geeze , did they cancel all your subscriptions?
That tired old saw went out with the WMD controversy in July.

When you wake up and realize the Dean campaign has motivated the 66% who currently do not vote, post something new.

Mc Govern would be closer to Clark if you want to start drawing allegories.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
81. So when did you stop beating your wife???
Yep, you convinced me. Along with about 75% of the other respondants to this thread as well. :eyes:

Here's a little hint. When you want to convince people of something on this board, naked emotional appeals coupled with condescension is NOT the best way to go. Most people here want to look at all of the candidates, weight the positives and negatives, and decide for themselves.

At least I do, and since I look at things that way, I find your post to be a lot of mindless babble with no real point other than electoral masturbation....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
azrak Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
82. Dukakis comes to mind
I keep wondering what Karl Rove knows about Dean. But I think your right.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. Sadly
Dukakis comes to mind with a couple of candidates.

Ironically Dukakis was leading for quite a bit in that campaign. Folks forget that it was very close til Lee Atwater worked his plege/flag and Willie Horton magic.

We would do better to focus on NEW strategies to better thwart the ugly dirt, dirty tactics that are going to reach new heights from the GOP than we are to figure out which candidates mirror which failed previous candidates. Whoever wins has got to have a very different kind of campaign than any democrat has ever won - because the playing field of the current strategies is now so unevenly tilted (money and media) that even the best candidate will have little chance to win... unless they rewrite the rules of the game.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. More Ironic still...Dukakis campaigned on the issue of INTEGRITY
On the heels of Ed Meese, Iran Contra, and a host of other slimy people and situations, Dukakis took the podium to accept the nomination and promised to make Americans PROUD to be Americans again.
They then left the convention with this ridiculously large 18 point lead in the polls.

Alas....slime tactics worked for the man from Texas who promised to do "anything he had to" in order to win.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #88
93. and that is what we have to prepare for
what will be thrown would undoubtedly taint even a Jimmy Stuart. Alternative methods of countering the slime - figuring out how to counter the echo effect of talkradiotalknews that will do the "Al Lies... AlisaPathologicalLiar" type mantra when there is much more evidence and track record of their boy being not just pathological but perhaps pyschopathically pathological in his lying. We don't have an echo chamber.

More time on the side strategizing on behalf of whoever the democratic candidate is (because some folks are going to be bitter - when the candidate they think either "CANT WIN"... or "IS A STEALTH REPUBLICAN" ...(or add some other crazy mantra) gets the nomination) the better. Otherwise any candidate can become Dukakis. (maybe sans the tank... but you know what I mean).

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
84. Imagine...
... how different our history might have been if we had elected McGovern.

This seems to be just the sort of campaign issue that the Greens focused on last election... do we want to choose the lesser of two evils or do we want to vote for the candidate we really like and trust.

Before you blow a gasket, anybody would be better than Bush... including you and me! But while we have ten pretty outstanding candidates, let's choose the one we really like and trust and the one who can beat Bush.

Yes, I think Dean can beat Bush if he is nominated and if Democrats get behind him and help him sort of flesh out his message so that he isn't perceived as just an anti-war candidate. Really, he is more than that. I've been listening, and he really is. ;-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
87. flamebait
Suppose I suggest that the Dems are fools to risk nominating their own version of Bush. Bush was a governor prior to his selection, Wesley clark may have the military creds-zero political experience, unless that doesn't count for anything anymore.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. Clark: the Dems' own version of Bush. That's exactly right.
Come on, everybody! Let's nominate someone JUST BECAUSE he's a general & has a nice smile.

On second thought, maybe Clark is the Dems' own version of Schwarzenegger.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uptohere Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
90. you are perfectly correct to state the import
but I'd argue that its far too early to insist that Dean is another McGovern. I don't like Dean but I'm sure we won't have a real feel for his electability till March or so.

I am reasonably certain that Clark will fizzle but thats not guaranteed either.

I'm not at all certan that Kerry Geppy or even smokin Joe are are dead meat. And my boy Edwards could get off the media blacklist and start rolling as well.

Its evaluation time for US. We must examine these guys carefully and be prepared to be swayed by reality. Loyalties are nice but its all about finding the best guy, not ones personal favorite.

Its OK to pick one and stick but try and avoid blindness. You are the only one who suffers when things so south.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
91. Good. Let's not do that.
Thank God McGovern is 173 years old and not running.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
92. Someone get the tissue box....
....it appears as if the Kerry-derrieres can dish it out but not take it....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mlawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
96. NO ONE could have defeated Nixon in '72.
So let's not blame George McGovern. He had no chance, but no other would any other Dem have had one either.

If bush is vulnerable in 2004, then with luck our candidate can beat him. That is, with luck, LOOKS and teflon!

If bush has recovered by then, no Dem can beat him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. Sorry, but a Nixon landslide wasn't inevitable
Nixon's landslide victory over McGovern makes him apper to be invincible in retrospect. But it's wrong to assune that Nixon would have coasted to victory against any Democratic nominee. Nixon won the 1968 election with substantially less than 50% of the popular vote. And the electorate in 1972 was still more Democratic than Republican. The size of Nixon's victory was due in large part to massive defections among Democrats, which likely would not have occurred with a more mainstream candidate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
97. Luckily, none of McGovern's sons or daughters are running.
Edited on Tue Sep-23-03 05:33 PM by stickdog
Coz I really hate legacy Presidencies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Oct 24th 2014, 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC