Freep the World

[undergroundpanther]

I focus this thought on the churches because Fundamentalists are threatening to overthrow our democratic pluralistic constitution to turn our country into a Christian Theocracy.

Christian religion (and Muslim among a few others) Have "holy texts" that demand of followers... that they convert the world.. To convert the world ,Think about it *this is an all or nothing proposition*.
Either the world is converted or it isn't.

Converting the world means the religions adherents must go convince others to believe as they do,by hook, crook or gun..It MEANS literally for Believers in One God to go out and destroy every other religion that believes differently by conversion to THEIR own kind of religion and god. It's also about stealing sheep from other"shepherd's flocks" if those shepherds are not like YOUR beliefs. Converting the world,Propagating the faith MEANS literally there can be no other religion in the world ,no other gods but their own kind.There can be no other gods before me kind of stuff..
This is what converting the world IS. Lets not mince words.

Commandment number 1
I. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Jesus said for Christians to go out and convert himself..There is no way to water this message down and be a Christian at the same time..Jesus said Take over the world and force it to convert to him..

Matt. 28:19-20, Jesus gave us the command to go into the whole world and make disciples.

Making a disciple of Jesus is basically is making a non Christian convert to a Christian.If you do it with a stage show, by bribe,soft sell,hard sell,force or manipulating persuasion the result is the same.

Here is how many verses in that*book*(bible) relate to proseletyzing..It's a hard sell...handbook with very clear orders.

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/biblical.htm

This is WHY religionists that seek to convert proselytize,really.This is a dangerous belief to have because it will not permit a live and let live attitude twords diverse beliefs.Christianity is NOT pluralistic_at all_. It is INTOLERANT of pluralism because it demands others must conform to Christian beliefs or die,ultimately.It says the same thing as the faith of Islam.The dark ages and crusades is where controlling custodial beliefs like these lead humanity.It creates cultural imperatives for coercion and conformity in the non believer by default.It is NON democratic non pluralistic and intolerant.Religions that do not proselytize/recruit fish for "disciples" or sell their beliefs do not have this covert the world.
edict in their religion texts.

So Given the command to create disciples..and the intolerance of other gods... in an ever more conscious world,where people are onto the selling of the "word"..and they are more aware of what they want to believe for themselves...

What types of "tools" do you think would people commanded by their god to convert you use? Manipulation, Hypnosis,bribes, Politics,Threats,beatings, Guns,wars, torture, good food,coffee, nice music,compassion,friendship when you feel down,the ol'love bomb?

All of these things have been used before to convert the world to Christianity.They will be used again if the game of proselytizing is not challenged by Christians and non Christians alike.And it's NOT only Christians who Proselytize alot of BUSINESSES and Politicians do it too.We need to ask WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE?

For now I focus on the churches because Fundamentalists are threatening to overthrow our Democratic pluralistic constitution to turn our country into a Christian Theocracy.

Missionaries are supposed to be as gentle as doves but wise as serpents..which is a DECEPTIVE image .A consummate salesperson,winning souls..Like a wolf in sheep's clothing basically..Christians accuse the WORLD of being deceptive, yet they admit they are too....And the Bible Says this..

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Matthew 10:5-8, 11-16)
And remember the so called prince of peace is indeed a harmless dove with a venomous bite and reptilian heart.

10:34 "Don't think that I came to send peace on the earth. I didn't come to send peace, but a sword.

How persuasive are you?
http://www.persuasion-skills.co.uk/ShowArticles.asp?ANUM=8

Think about it if a hypnotist can curb a phobias in their patients ,even temporarily,Why wouldn't Christians use these effective tools of persuasion too?

http://www.goodtapes.com/
http://www.hypnos.info/cds/cd04.html
ttp://www.infinityinst.com/articles/hypnosis_religion.html
http://www.durbinhypnosis.com/hypnosis_and_religion_volume_2.htm

Imagine what going to a mass hypnosis session EVERY WEEK to a church that uses hypnosis and auto suggestion techniques can do for skewing your thinking and generating blind spots in how you pay attention to issues.

http://www.skeptictank.org/bfymind.htm

When I was in AoG the way the music was done the lighting the order of the sermon the way they spoke was a very sophisticated hypnotic induction.
http://www.piney.com/BrainWsh.html

I felt the changes in myself. It's scary
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13767.htm

scary that people would want to do this..http://www.applyhypnosis.com/?hop=norbiz

I think that church hypnosis effects people to varying degrees.. depending on personality types and situations in life ,but it certainly has slowed their ability to open their mind and wake up.

The church hypnosis does not have to be perfectly seamless obedience to EFFECT people sometimes,some way. And despite what others might say,I think these mega churches have done Rightwing America one hell of a con job. Something in them prompts them , to close the mind at hearing certain ideas, it closes the mind not slowly but like a steel jaw trap..


It uncannily looks to me like a hypnotic negative auto suggestion is at work is triggering the reaction and reinforcing "new behavior".

Something Like a how under hypnosis a compulsive smoker gets an auto suggestion to feel nausea when he wants a cigarette to help himself not want to smoke. likewise a fundie RWer triggers off on certain words and they close their mind because they don't want to become a liberal.

All this fundie belief system ties to very primal things in human beings lives and unconscious.Things like love acceptance, trauma,avoiding suffering,elitism and status,powerlessness, winning and not have to struggle for survival.All these topics are fertile ground for some serious auto suggestions and NLP. RW gatherings audiences do similar stuff in response to leadership..

Just observe them for yourself..Go observe people in a fundie church (get out if you feel trance or urges you can't explain like to sing or raise hands and do what the crowd is doing)and then later go watch a stage hypnosis act and watch the audience it's creepy how they act.

The Birth of Conversion
CONVERSION is a "nice" word for BRAINWASHING . . . and any study of
brainwashing has to begin with a study of Christian revivalism in eighteenth century America. Apparently, Jonathan Edwards accidentally discovered the techniques during a religious crusade in 1735 in Northampton, Massachusetts.By inducing guilt and acute apprehension and by increasing the tension, the "sinners" attending his revival meetings would break down and completely submit. Technically, what Edwards was doing was creating conditions that wipe the brain slate clean so that the mind accepts new programming.
http://www.mindspring.com/~toxiccow/9_0039.htm


Which if you think about it is downright Straussian...And you know where that kind of thinking leads It gets us all Cheneyed!
http://www.peuplesmonde.com/article.php3?id_article=159

[getmeouttahere]

1. Whenever I get depressed about this stuff...

I remind myself that AT LEAST 90% of the world is NOT christian. I was baptized catholic, but I am so ashamed of what some people do in the name of christianity that I no longer call myself christian. And I like being part of the huge majority that is not.

[Tux]

2. I know some UUs

That call themselves Jesus Theists. They can't stand to be associated with Christianity now. That is why my local church has grown lately. We need to balance reason with faith. Too much of one leads to annoyance and maybe death.

[undergroundpanther]

3. the problem is iNHERENT

To Chritianity itself. The religion the bible it has these tenets in it. Either you edit the bible to be sane (hey rome did it) or throw out the faith all together. You cannot keep the door open for abuses of power and the bible has plenty of them even when you are liberal and play nice,you IGNORE half the bible.

The tendancy for all the ugliness the church has done is in the book.Either cut it out to shut the door to this crap..
Or give up "faith".

There isn't many options left.Christianity has not a moral leg to stand on.For a reason.

When a fundie reads the bible they read it as correctly as you,the liberal Christian does. Fundies put emphasis certain things and liberals eput emphasis other things and both are in the book, both a validated..
You cannot have it both ways without someone taking things the sick way.
Close the door (edit the bible)or lose the faith.

You cannot say these fundamentalist people are "bad chtristians" forever because people hurt by bad Christians can read and see the probblem is in the bible itself ,The words of the Christian God ALLOWS people sometimes even commands people to be bad human beings to be good Christians.

So good hearted people who happen to be Christians cannnot go against the fundamentalists on biblical grounds alone..They can fight them on human rights grounds... but remember "faith"if you are a believer overrides human concerns ,Gods law is a "higher authority" beyond man's law.. Do you see my point?

[Tux]

4. I think the main problem is

The OT. It's been stolen from the Jews. They have a culture that allows them not to act on such violence mostly. No stoning and such anyways. Christians lack that culture and think it's OK to do so. I'm not Christian but I do like the Jefferson Bible. Jesus Theists could use that or only NT or maybe Gnostic Bible (gotten good reviews but haven't read it myself yet). We can't fight faith and hate with reason. Throwing out the faith is weird since we have freedom of religion. Best thing to do is to counter the fundie's leaders till they give up or are discredited. A new Reformation is needed to get away from fundies.

[Jo March]

6. The word of Christ has never changed

You can't distinguish between the teachings of Christ and what some do in His name? I can distinguish that easily enough.

You said it yourself, "... I am so ashamed of what some people do in the name of christianity"

They are doing it in the name of Christianity, not because Christianity teaches them to act vile.

* does a lot of stuff in the name of America but he is not acting on the ideals that America was founded on.

There is a difference.

I am a Christian. I know the difference between a Christian who follows the teachings of Christ and someone who simply wears the trappings of Christianity.

[0rganism]

9. 90%? Try 70%

2.1 billion Christians.

'nuff said.

[Jo March]

5. Okay, this is going to fall on deaf ears but you are INCORRECT

To "convert" someone, Christ teaches that the conversion must be from the heart. A person cannot be forced to convert - if they are forced, then they are not Christians.

It has to be a transformation within your heart, understand?

Jesus wanted his disciples to be "fishers of men" - not hunters of men.

Organized religion, i.e., churches, throughout the centuries have tried to force people into Christianity AGAINST the teachings of Christ.

I get so tired of seeing this kind of stuff posted as if it were a true picture of Christ's teachings. It's NOT.

And the quote from Matthew 10:34? Jesus is not speaking literally. He is talking about those who believe in Him and those who don't. He is not literally saying that He will kill those who don't believe in Him nor is He instructing His followers to kill those who don't believe in Him.

Your original post is no worse than that of the fundies. You are taking snippets of the Bible to prove how horrible Christianity is. You are no better than the fundies who take snippets of the Bible to prove how horrible we Democrats and liberals are.

If you are going to quote the Bible, at least know the context of the verses that you quote. Study it a little bit and post from what you've learned, not from someone else's prejudice and slanted views.

[Jo March]

7. These are Christ's words on preaching and converting

Please note that Jesus says repeatedly, "If any man have ears to hear, let him hear." Jesus acknowledges that all men who hear about God will not want to listen. Nowhere does He say to punish them. He gives a parable about planting seeds - some seeds will grow; some will not. He teaches that not all who hear will listen.

Good grief. Jesus NEVER teaches that people need to be forced into listening or accepting His teachings.


Matthew chapter 4:

1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land.

2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

[Jo March]

8. And where did you find this?

"Making a disciple of Jesus is basically is making a non Christian convert to a Christian.If you do it with a stage show, by bribe,soft sell,hard sell,force or manipulating persuasion the result is the same."

Where in the Bible does Christ teach that??

[undergroundpanther]

10. Jesus told his followerrs to bring people to him.

He said go out and make disciples.
The bible is UNLEAR on how to get these Disciples and covert the world.

And not all hearts turn to Jesus,even when they are PERSUADED.
Yet Jesus says Covert the world..
It's in the heart yet he says for his"beloved"to gather people to the church...
You can't have it both ways.

Is it works or grace that saves you? Does "the father" just pick and choose,people...and even if you did your best to follow the bible or were a monster,IT doesen't matter,Grace..or if you are not chosen you get to be a vessel of wrath and be broken forever..Oooh that's nice?

Or do you do the jesus in the heart ritual prayer thing and then bam all is forgiven..and all you gotta do is say I'm sorry,and you can be an asshole like Bush is and god forgives as long as you confess that you love god and you can't help it because you are a sinner.
The bible is not clear at all on that issue.And you can't have it both ways.

The church has split into schisms over that what saves grace works or pennance question that has no answer.Eternal torture demands an answer to how one is"saved" from it and from what.But no Christian has answered that to my satisfaction..


So considering that contradiction..It's not hard to see the same blindness
When A christian fails to see how walking up talk to someone you never met who did not ask you about jesus in reality is manipulation, you are selling your religion to them like an advertizement,or vacuum cleaner salesman...Every evangelist is guilty of persuading people,by preaching on streetcorners handing out leaflets about jesus he sells it..and the lonely,the stressed,the poor,the insecure, the tired and despairing are easy marks.

When Jesus commands his followers to go forth and preach the good news to the world what does that mean really? Preaching is not a two way conversation.What does it mean to a non believer when Jesus says to his sales teams, go out and convert because THERE SHALL BE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME?
It means, like it or not... SELL,Sell SeLL or go to hell,hell,hell!

[lonestarnot]

11. Jesus would more than likely say, "Stop this war of lies now."

and leave of the bastards part!