Josh Green Is Discussing Wes Clark On C-Span

[DemocratSinceBirth]

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. Clark

"would work through multilateral alliances to fight terror"

"criticises Bush's unilateralism."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. Friends Describe Him As A Truman Democrat

but his domestic policies aren't as clearly delineated as his foreign policies...

[EagleEye]

3. Clark is a good man being played by the Dem Establishment

They fear Dean can win and once pres he will owe them nothing.

[Julien Sorel]

4. He's such a puppet!

And you did such a great job of proving this semi-paranoid assertion that I've decided to believe it.

Now, tell me why this is relevant to the qualifications of the two candidates.

[EagleEye]

6. It's relevant to the future of the Dem party and it's ability to win.

Clark is the last gasp attempt by the establishment to slow Dean.

[Julien Sorel]

11. OK.

You're repeating yourself. You already did a great job of convincing me this dastardly plot exists; now I want to know why this conspiracy is relevant to the election. Simply telling me over and over that Clark is a puppet doesn't make me think any more highly of Dean, or any less of Clark, for that matter. A puppet in the hands of the right puppeteer can be a beautiful thing to behold.

[EagleEye]

12. Yes, but he still has someone's hand up his butt. : )

[Julien Sorel]

15. How constructive!

[EagleEye]

18. It's a joke...Geez

You called him a puppet first, remember? On CLark's web-site the "On Issues" link leads to an "under construction" notice. What more do you want. We do not know him yet.

[OKNancy]

19. So?

What's wrong with that. Maybe some people don't feel like Dean is the best candidate. That's the way things work in the world of politics.

[EagleEye]

25. Nothing Wrong with it if...

...the motivations for those pushing him are revealed, or at least discussed.

[Julien Sorel]

31. It has already been decided through brilliant

persuasive logic that the motives behind it were a desire to stop Dean. Now what.

[EagleEye]

34. Thank you

... I often tell myself I'm brilliant.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kahuna]

21. You're half right. Clark and the "Dem establishment"..

fear that Dean can win the nomination and lose in a landslide in the general election. I agree with them. Why? Because Americans do not throw aside a wartime president for one with zero national security experience. It has never happened and it won't happen now.

[EagleEye]

36. If we are still At War

in Iraq in Nov. 2004 then almost anyone who can articulate a strong message and energize the base will be able to beat Bush. If Bush gets us into another war ... I'm not sure anyone could beat him.

[Kahuna]

51. The base is what percent of the entire voting electorate?

10%? 20%? Take it from us old timers. The "base (that you're referring to)" has never picked a winning candidate. If you think they have I wish you would correct me.

[KittyWampus]

39. I See You Read Safire's Editorial!

.....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. I Read Saffire's Editorial

Maybe the DNC just wants to win back the White House....

As Freud said "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".

[jonnyblitz]

5. A Truman Democrat? What does that imply.

I have never heard of any current Democrats described as that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Truman

was every bit an economic liberal populist. He criticized Adlai Stevenson for abandoning an emphasis on socialized medicine as a campaign issue...

[jonnyblitz]

16. That isn't the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Truman, n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. I Have Read Books On HST

On politics he was clearly left... As left as his predecessor.....

[Donna Zen]

10. accountability

Clark really does live by the "buck stops here." His outrage about 911 is that no one is taking any responsibility for the failure to act prior to the event, thus leaving the US vulnerable to attack.

BTW, Josh Green did a hachet job on Clark this month; I would expect more of the same.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. He's Actually Quite Fair This Morning

And he said that the main person behind his decision to run was his wife...

[RandomUser]

26. Comes from the military

I think this is a good thing. The accountability aspect was grounded into him and made apart of him by the military. The buck stops here with Clark. And it would be a good thing if he brought that accountability from the military into public life. Imagine if every politician had to be accountable the way they are in the military.

Lose a battle? Well you can't blame it on the weather, or you were tired, your subordinates didn't obey you. Your watch, your call, your fault.

Bad economy after four years in office? Not allowed to blame it on the recession from the last administration, or economic slow down, or deficit spending congress, or 9-11. Ooops, wrong war? Not allowed to blame faulty intelligence from your underlings, or say the media misunderstood your reasons, say the intelligence guys messed up. Your watch, your call, your fault.

It would be nice if all our politicians could be held accountable for Enron meltdowns and whatnot.

[kentuck]

7. Wes Clark is playing the "Third Way"...

And in this climate of partisan politics, this may be a very clever and winnable strategy. Especially if he attracts moderate Repubs to his position... The numbers are there for him.

[EagleEye]

8. Third Way being...

..don't get caught answering any questions. Don't lay out an economic agenda. Clark is a good man. He's no puppet. He knows what is going on here. Problem is, we don't know what's going on here because we do not know him

[Donna Zen]

13. Actually

One of my long term friends is a good friend of Clark's. Months ago my fear of uniforms, compelled me to "get the skinny" on the buzz about Clark. He is a liberal, however, his real drawing card for me is his commmittment to international alliances. This unilateralism we live with now is literally killing us and too many other people.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. He seems like a fundamentally

decent and humane man who holds center left positions and can beat *

That's enough for me....

[EagleEye]

23. Hold on ...

... again, I like Clark okay, but this is a bit crazy. Humane? He directed the bombings in the Kosovo war the killed thousands. Yes, I know war is needed sometimes, but its anything but humane, even if it is intended to help on of the waring parties. If you like Clark, then so be it, but let's not attribute to him qualities he may not have.

[disgruntella]

24. you're funny

"let's not attribute to him qualities he may not have"

Let's not attribute to him qualities he may actually have! Let's not talk about him at all! lol

[EagleEye]

28. I say let's talk about him a lot.

Better yet, let's talk to him. Ask him for specifics. He has been flurting with this run for months. Why does he not have specific positions on specific issues spelled out?

[EagleEye]

30. Bottom Line for me is this...

...Clark can be a real asset to this party or he can shoot himself in the foot. How can we get behind someone we do not know? I hope he becomes someones VP, but only if he pans out. I fear that if he has many more weeks like this last one, he will not even be much help as VP.

[disgruntella]

33. ok, teasing aside, i have no problem with what you're saying

I support Clark based on what I know, which admittedly is not much. I'm willing to wait and see. I'm not willing to write him off just because I don't have enough information. And Clark is not the only candidate I support - I also support Kerry and Dean (in the primaries anyway).

Any of our candidates can be an asset OR shoot themselves in the foot at any time. Just because this is Clark's first week, doesn't make him any more or less vulnerable IMO.

[bearfartinthewoods]

50. that's what bugs me too

it's not like this was a snap decision on his part. he's been floating the ballon all summer yet he's rolled out a product (himself) with no owner's manual, no parts list, no freakin assemly instructions....just a catchy name and good cover art.

[KittyWampus]

41. "He directed the bombings in the Kosovo war"

" He directed the bombings in the Kosovo war the killed thousands."

And you know what?

He WANTED to use ground troops which would have killed alot less citizens...

And yet I've heard anti-Clark bashers bleat about the fact he wanted to use ground troops....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. EXACCTLY

I'll bet there is alot less "collateral damage" with ground troops than with air bombardment...

He also gets blasted for wanting to use Apachee helicopters... I'm not an aviator but I'll bet you're more accurate at 1,000 feet than at 15,000 feet...

[IndianaGreen]

29. Clark's views on Iraq are identical to Lieberman and Kerry

At least with Holy Joe and Kerry we are getting real Democrats, and not some yahoo that voted twice for Reagan (and has yet to criticize Reagan or his policies), and voted for Nixon, and Poppy Bush, and for all I know also voted for George W.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. He Said He Opposed The War

and would have voted against the Congressional resolution after misspeaking....Misspeaking once after talking myriad times about the subject....

If you want to excoriate him for that ... That's fine...

But he's no Joe Lieberman... Not by a long shot.... And to accuse him of being like Joe Lieberman is a calumny...

DK, AS, CMB, were the only true opponents of the war.....

Wes Clark's position is closest to Howard Dean... Both are on the record as supporting the invasion if it was under a United Nations flag....

If you oppose the war I don't see how the invasion becomes correct just because the invaders are wearing U N helmets...

[Donna Zen]

45. cherry picking

the facts in order to forward an agenda.

Just keeping the record straight.

[Kahuna]

53. No, they are not identical. I wouldn't believe that

you would engage in this intellectually dishonest bashing on the issue of Iraq. I'll believe what I heard Clark say with my own ears hundreds of times than one on the fly interview for which I'm still not sure of how the question was framed and the context of his response.

[DemExpat]

20. Right on, Donna......

Clark's real commitment to international co-operation/alliances is what attracts me most to him as well.

(Along with his seeming to be very electable)

Bush really is pulling the whole world down with his strategy.

DemEx

[jonnyblitz]

22. I like the juxtapostition of him being a general and progressive.

If, in fact, he is one. His positions on issues make him seem like it. Being ex-military I have fallen into the probably bad habit of stereotyping all military brass as right wingers. This third way stuff reminds me of Dick Morris and triangulation.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. I'm Glad You Have An Open Mind...

We all make our candidates in our own image; grafting onto them our beliefs rather than the other way around....

That being said I do believe Wes Clark is an internationalist who would use force as a last resort not a first resort...

And on domestic policies I do think he will govern progressively-

pro affirmative action

pro choice

pro gay rights

pro universal health care

pro workers rights

pro free and fair trade

[jonnyblitz]

42. well, he has a damn good chance of being the DEM candidate

In spite of what I might think one way or the other and, in the end, I will support whomever that might be. My only other option would be to abstain from voting or vote third party(which is futile because of how our current system is set up) and there is no way in HELL I am going to do either of those two things!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. We'll See Who The Nominee Is

It's a long way from the lip to the cup...

Voting Democrat is a matter of religion with me so the question of my support in the general election is academic...

We all have our own idea of what a perfect society would look like but I recognize all the institutional constraints in our system and will accept whatever positive social change I can get...

[jonnyblitz]

47. I agree.

I am a registered independent who can't vote in primaries but I ALWAYS vote DEM during elections, fully aware that my views will always be farther to the left than most mainstream Democrats. I probably shouldn't even post on these pre-primary threads since, in the end, I will vote for whomever is chosen anyway. All I know is I would rather take a bullet to the head than EVER vote for a Republican, I don't care how progressive he/she might be.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. If They Resurrected Lincoln Or TR

I might take a good look at them but I doubt their own party would recognize them...

[jonnyblitz]

52. They sure like to invoke Lincoln every chance they get I noticed. n/t

[Donna Zen]

44. Of course the top brass

found Clark was not a member of their club. Although, they were willing to put their differences aside...because his assets (smarts) out weighed their distaste for the scholar general and were more valuable to any team.

This goes back to the culture that sprung up within the military brass after Vietnam. It is not just they we, the liberal, educated (elite is their buzz word) Dems distrust the brass, they distrust us. The class that rose through the ranks with Clark had very thick necks. Think, who stayed in the military after Nam? Clark says he could not hide what he had accomplished (Rhodes etc) in his life. He did find some who were willing to look past his scholarship.


While I think that this is one man's personal experience, the insight sheds light on our current cultural split. When I was a kid the military was not a republican tool. Continuing on this path of division and polarization is very dangerous, especially for those who want to work towards peace. While the anti-military attitude the prevails at DU is understandable, enticing, easy, and reflects the status quo; it is also extremely dangerous well beyond the ballot box.

[jonnyblitz]

49. I appreciate your post

your perspective is very illuminating and helpful to me.

[Kahuna]

54. If he gets elected we're gonna...

damned well make sure that he fulfills his progressive rhetoric.

So far, I still have faith that General Clark is what he says he is.

[Mr_Scarecrow]

35. But is there really a "Third Way" any more?

Seems to me like not. Dems love recycling, but they sometimes can't read the tea leaves. The base is not going to be excited about Clark, and the Repubs have no reason to switch gears if the Dem candidate is going to ride the fence. Despite what many seem to believe, I think Republicans are less likely to vote for a candidate with military experience. Plus Clark has all these Clintonites in his camp, and nothing kills a candidate like Clinton associations unless you're an actual Clinton. Repubs will just say "Are you ready to re-elect Clinton?" From what I've seen, Dean is the Fourth Way.