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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:09 AM
Original message
Josh Green Is Discussing Wes Clark On C-Span
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 07:40 AM by DemocratSinceBirth
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. Clark
"would work through multilateral alliances to fight terror"

"criticises Bush's unilateralism."
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Friends Describe Him As A Truman Democrat
but his domestic policies aren't as clearly delineated as his foreign policies...
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EagleEye Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Clark is a good man being played by the Dem Establishment
They fear Dean can win and once pres he will owe them nothing.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. He's such a puppet!
And you did such a great job of proving this semi-paranoid assertion that I've decided to believe it.

Now, tell me why this is relevant to the qualifications of the two candidates.
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EagleEye Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. It's relevant to the future of the Dem party and it's ability to win.
Clark is the last gasp attempt by the establishment to slow Dean.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. OK.
You're repeating yourself. You already did a great job of convincing me this dastardly plot exists; now I want to know why this conspiracy is relevant to the election. Simply telling me over and over that Clark is a puppet doesn't make me think any more highly of Dean, or any less of Clark, for that matter. A puppet in the hands of the right puppeteer can be a beautiful thing to behold.
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EagleEye Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yes, but he still has someone's hand up his butt. : )
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. How constructive!
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EagleEye Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. It's a joke...Geez
You called him a puppet first, remember? On CLark's web-site the "On Issues" link leads to an "under construction" notice. What more do you want. We do not know him yet.
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. So?
What's wrong with that. Maybe some people don't feel like Dean is the best candidate. That's the way things work in the world of politics.
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EagleEye Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Nothing Wrong with it if...
...the motivations for those pushing him are revealed, or at least discussed.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. It has already been decided through brilliant
persuasive logic that the motives behind it were a desire to stop Dean. Now what.
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EagleEye Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Thank you
... I often tell myself I'm brilliant.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. You're half right. Clark and the "Dem establishment"..
fear that Dean can win the nomination and lose in a landslide in the general election. I agree with them. Why? Because Americans do not throw aside a wartime president for one with zero national security experience. It has never happened and it won't happen now.
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EagleEye Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. If we are still At War
in Iraq in Nov. 2004 then almost anyone who can articulate a strong message and energize the base will be able to beat Bush. If Bush gets us into another war ... I'm not sure anyone could beat him.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #36
51. The base is what percent of the entire voting electorate?
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 09:38 AM by Kahuna
10%? 20%? Take it from us old timers. The "base (that you're referring to)" has never picked a winning candidate. If you think they have I wish you would correct me.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
39. I See You Read Safire's Editorial!
.....
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. I Read Saffire's Editorial
Maybe the DNC just wants to win back the White House....

As Freud said "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. A Truman Democrat? What does that imply.
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 07:32 AM by jonnyblitz
I have never heard of any current Democrats described as that.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Truman
was every bit an economic liberal populist. He criticized Adlai Stevenson for abandoning an emphasis on socialized medicine as a campaign issue...
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. That isn't the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Truman, n/t
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. I Have Read Books On HST
On politics he was clearly left... As left as his predecessor.....

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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. accountability
Clark really does live by the "buck stops here." His outrage about 911 is that no one is taking any responsibility for the failure to act prior to the event, thus leaving the US vulnerable to attack.

BTW, Josh Green did a hachet job on Clark this month; I would expect more of the same.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. He's Actually Quite Fair This Morning
And he said that the main person behind his decision to run was his wife...
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RandomUser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
26. Comes from the military
I think this is a good thing. The accountability aspect was grounded into him and made apart of him by the military. The buck stops here with Clark. And it would be a good thing if he brought that accountability from the military into public life. Imagine if every politician had to be accountable the way they are in the military.

Lose a battle? Well you can't blame it on the weather, or you were tired, your subordinates didn't obey you. Your watch, your call, your fault.

Bad economy after four years in office? Not allowed to blame it on the recession from the last administration, or economic slow down, or deficit spending congress, or 9-11. Ooops, wrong war? Not allowed to blame faulty intelligence from your underlings, or say the media misunderstood your reasons, say the intelligence guys messed up. Your watch, your call, your fault.

It would be nice if all our politicians could be held accountable for Enron meltdowns and whatnot.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
7. Wes Clark is playing the "Third Way"...
And in this climate of partisan politics, this may be a very clever and winnable strategy. Especially if he attracts moderate Repubs to his position... The numbers are there for him.
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EagleEye Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Third Way being...
..don't get caught answering any questions. Don't lay out an economic agenda. Clark is a good man. He's no puppet. He knows what is going on here. Problem is, we don't know what's going on here because we do not know him
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Actually
One of my long term friends is a good friend of Clark's. Months ago my fear of uniforms, compelled me to "get the skinny" on the buzz about Clark. He is a liberal, however, his real drawing card for me is his commmittment to international alliances. This unilateralism we live with now is literally killing us and too many other people.

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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. He seems like a fundamentally
decent and humane man who holds center left positions and can beat *

That's enough for me....
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EagleEye Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Hold on ...
... again, I like Clark okay, but this is a bit crazy. Humane? He directed the bombings in the Kosovo war the killed thousands. Yes, I know war is needed sometimes, but its anything but humane, even if it is intended to help on of the waring parties. If you like Clark, then so be it, but let's not attribute to him qualities he may not have.
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disgruntella Donating Member (983 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. you're funny
"let's not attribute to him qualities he may not have"

Let's not attribute to him qualities he may actually have! Let's not talk about him at all! lol
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EagleEye Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. I say let's talk about him a lot.
Better yet, let's talk to him. Ask him for specifics. He has been flurting with this run for months. Why does he not have specific positions on specific issues spelled out?
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EagleEye Donating Member (278 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Bottom Line for me is this...
...Clark can be a real asset to this party or he can shoot himself in the foot. How can we get behind someone we do not know? I hope he becomes someones VP, but only if he pans out. I fear that if he has many more weeks like this last one, he will not even be much help as VP.
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disgruntella Donating Member (983 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. ok, teasing aside, i have no problem with what you're saying
I support Clark based on what I know, which admittedly is not much. I'm willing to wait and see. I'm not willing to write him off just because I don't have enough information. And Clark is not the only candidate I support - I also support Kerry and Dean (in the primaries anyway).

Any of our candidates can be an asset OR shoot themselves in the foot at any time. Just because this is Clark's first week, doesn't make him any more or less vulnerable IMO.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #28
50. that's what bugs me too
it's not like this was a snap decision on his part. he's been floating the ballon all summer yet he's rolled out a product (himself) with no owner's manual, no parts list, no freakin assemly instructions....just a catchy name and good cover art.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
41.  "He directed the bombings in the Kosovo war"
" He directed the bombings in the Kosovo war the killed thousands."

And you know what?

He WANTED to use ground troops which would have killed alot less citizens...

And yet I've heard anti-Clark bashers bleat about the fact he wanted to use ground troops....
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. EXACCTLY
I'll bet there is alot less "collateral damage" with ground troops than with air bombardment...

He also gets blasted for wanting to use Apachee helicopters... I'm not an aviator but I'll bet you're more accurate at 1,000 feet than at 15,000 feet...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. Clark's views on Iraq are identical to Lieberman and Kerry
At least with Holy Joe and Kerry we are getting real Democrats, and not some yahoo that voted twice for Reagan (and has yet to criticize Reagan or his policies), and voted for Nixon, and Poppy Bush, and for all I know also voted for George W.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #29
37. He Said He Opposed The War
and would have voted against the Congressional resolution after misspeaking....Misspeaking once after talking myriad times about the subject....

If you want to excoriate him for that ... That's fine...

But he's no Joe Lieberman... Not by a long shot.... And to accuse him of being like Joe Lieberman is a calumny...

DK, AS, CMB, were the only true opponents of the war.....

Wes Clark's position is closest to Howard Dean... Both are on the record as supporting the invasion if it was under a United Nations flag....

If you oppose the war I don't see how the invasion becomes correct just because the invaders are wearing U N helmets...
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #29
45. cherry picking
the facts in order to forward an agenda.

Just keeping the record straight.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #29
53. No, they are not identical. I wouldn't believe that
you would engage in this intellectually dishonest bashing on the issue of Iraq. I'll believe what I heard Clark say with my own ears hundreds of times than one on the fly interview for which I'm still not sure of how the question was framed and the context of his response.
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DemExpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. Right on, Donna......
Clark's real commitment to international co-operation/alliances is what attracts me most to him as well.

(Along with his seeming to be very electable)

Bush really is pulling the whole world down with his strategy. :nuke:

DemEx
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. I like the juxtapostition of him being a general and progressive.
If, in fact, he is one. His positions on issues make him seem like it. Being ex-military I have fallen into the probably bad habit of stereotyping all military brass as right wingers. This third way stuff reminds me of Dick Morris and triangulation.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #22
32. I'm Glad You Have An Open Mind...
We all make our candidates in our own image; grafting onto them our beliefs rather than the other way around....

That being said I do believe Wes Clark is an internationalist who would use force as a last resort not a first resort...

And on domestic policies I do think he will govern progressively-

pro affirmative action

pro choice

pro gay rights

pro universal health care

pro workers rights

pro free and fair trade
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #32
42. well, he has a damn good chance of being the DEM candidate
In spite of what I might think one way or the other and, in the end, I will support whomever that might be. My only other option would be to abstain from voting or vote third party(which is futile because of how our current system is set up) and there is no way in HELL I am going to do either of those two things!!
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #42
46. We'll See Who The Nominee Is
It's a long way from the lip to the cup...

Voting Democrat is a matter of religion with me so the question of my support in the general election is academic...

We all have our own idea of what a perfect society would look like but I recognize all the institutional constraints in our system and will accept whatever positive social change I can get...

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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. I agree.
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 09:14 AM by jonnyblitz
I am a registered independent who can't vote in primaries but I ALWAYS vote DEM during elections, fully aware that my views will always be farther to the left than most mainstream Democrats. I probably shouldn't even post on these pre-primary threads since, in the end, I will vote for whomever is chosen anyway. All I know is I would rather take a bullet to the head than EVER vote for a Republican, I don't care how progressive he/she might be. :puke:
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. If They Resurrected Lincoln Or TR
I might take a good look at them but I doubt their own party would recognize them...
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. They sure like to invoke Lincoln every chance they get I noticed. n/t
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #22
44. Of course the top brass
found Clark was not a member of their club. Although, they were willing to put their differences aside...because his assets (smarts) out weighed their distaste for the scholar general and were more valuable to any team.

This goes back to the culture that sprung up within the military brass after Vietnam. It is not just they we, the liberal, educated (elite is their buzz word) Dems distrust the brass, they distrust us. The class that rose through the ranks with Clark had very thick necks. Think, who stayed in the military after Nam? Clark says he could not hide what he had accomplished (Rhodes etc) in his life. He did find some who were willing to look past his scholarship.


While I think that this is one man's personal experience, the insight sheds light on our current cultural split. When I was a kid the military was not a republican tool. Continuing on this path of division and polarization is very dangerous, especially for those who want to work towards peace. While the anti-military attitude the prevails at DU is understandable, enticing, easy, and reflects the status quo; it is also extremely dangerous well beyond the ballot box.



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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #44
49. I appreciate your post
your perspective is very illuminating and helpful to me. :hi:
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
54. If he gets elected we're gonna...
damned well make sure that he fulfills his progressive rhetoric.

So far, I still have faith that General Clark is what he says he is.
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Mr_Scarecrow Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
35. But is there really a "Third Way" any more?
Seems to me like not. Dems love recycling, but they sometimes can't read the tea leaves. The base is not going to be excited about Clark, and the Repubs have no reason to switch gears if the Dem candidate is going to ride the fence. Despite what many seem to believe, I think Republicans are less likely to vote for a candidate with military experience. Plus Clark has all these Clintonites in his camp, and nothing kills a candidate like Clinton associations unless you're an actual Clinton. Repubs will just say "Are you ready to re-elect Clinton?" From what I've seen, Dean is the Fourth Way.
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