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A Reason for Hope – David Podvin praises Howard Dean (to put it mildly)

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pruner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:14 AM
Original message
A Reason for Hope – David Podvin praises Howard Dean (to put it mildly)
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 10:36 AM by Skinner
The actor Ossie Davis has spoken about the concept of “ooftah”, which he defines as a black person who embarrassingly grins and shuffles in order to ingratiate himself to white people. For a long time, the Democratic Party has suffered from a similar form of self-contempt, constantly genuflecting towards the conservative political machine in the name of bipartisanship. It has been truly nauseating to witness ooftah as practiced by the elected representatives of rank and file Democrats.

Thus far, Howard Dean has shown himself to be oofta-intolerant. Most notably, he has broken the taboo against calling Bush incompetent and corrupt. He has been scathing in his attacks on both the Republicans who are screwing the American people and the Democrats who are their passive accomplices. Not only has he vowed to send Bush back to Texas, he has promised to replace the gerbils on the Democratic National Committee with piranhas.

As a result, he has incurred the wrath of the defenders of the status quo. The mainstream media has lambasted Dean, who has a moderately left of center record, for being an “extremist”. The nation’s buffoonish pundits and talk radio lemmings have echoed the chant that he is a dangerous fringe candidate. Dean has also been ceaselessly bashed by the reactionary Democratic Leadership Council, which is attempting to rescue the faltering candidacy of Bush-wannabe Joseph Lieberman.

Meanwhile, sneering Republicans are rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of facing Dean. They haven’t been this excited about running against a Democrat since 1992, when they were drooling over the inevitability of crushing an unelectable hillbilly with a zipper problem.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

<snip>

http://makethemaccountable.com/podvin/more/030825_AReas...
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. Kick!
:kick:
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. double kick
:kick: :kick:
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einsteins stein Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. Flying, Spinning Kick!
and I'll be back to kick it again!
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:35 AM
Response to Original message
4. Wow that was perfect: A shot heard off the bow!
Let's go!
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. Easy for Dean to slam other Democrats when he didn't have to cast
any votes.

Considering the way Dean has been unprincipled in his stance on the issues, it't really unreal how his "followers" buy into this b.s.
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. He needs to add another category to non-Dean supporters.
Those that think he is a hypocritical arrogant phony politician who is more image than substance.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I call it like I see it.
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 05:26 AM by Skwmom
As far as candidate bashing goes, if you can't take statements critical of your candidate, the Dean groupies should stop flooding the DU boards with threads bashing other candidates.

In addition, the tone of the article is offensive. Believe it or not, some people do not like Dean because they see him as your typical, phony politician and if the Democratic party is going to go down in flames in 2004 I'd rather see us do it supporting a principled man (for example, Kucinich).
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. That's your opinion
I think they are both principled, but Dean's got the momentum and creates the most fear in the people I want to be sent on the run from Washington.
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Sideways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Who Said Dean Was My Man?
I have NEVER posted my support for Dean or any other candidate for that matter as of today I am undecided. I live abroad and I get much better coverage of the political scene in the US than you do and I am choosing to wait before casting my support. I actually get news instead of propaganda. My concern was not for Dean in particular it was a general concern over you hijacking threads about candidates you don't like.

You find Podvin's tone offensive? Why didn't you state that as an opinion as in "I think Podvin's tone is offensive." Instead of stating it as you have which makes it sound like a fact.

YOU think it is offensive. I thought it was dead accurate. Please don't be so disingenuous as to claim you just "call it like I see it." What you really do in almost all of your posts is practically scream "HEY EVERYBODY NEEDS TO HATE DEAN BECAUSE I DO." Get over yourself.

Oh BTW I have no problem reading well thought out and cogent discussions about the pros and cons of all the candidates. Yours just don't qualify as such.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. Typical of your usual posts
nothing but slurs, never any substance.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. poor little raincloud
trying to rain on a Dean-supporter's parade.

Here's a hint silly, lots and lots of people (millions actually) have been growing increasingly outraged at the neo-cons behavior and the hand-wringing we've been treated to by the "loyal opposition". Between listening to the mantra "I stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush" and watching 'em trip over each other to get photographed with the Simian in the Rose garden, well, maybe they shoulda thought about acting like actual "opposition" instead of lackeys.

Now, much later, Dean has done it and they realize this is what they too must do. Too late, we're already disgusted.

Julie--who wonders what the Dean-haters will do if he wins the nom
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. You mean WHEN he wins the nomination.
No one has excited me as much as Howard Dean. I was so disgusted by the "pink tutu" Dems...and yeah, I was ready for the thunder of Howard Dean.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. Ah, one more
for my ever-increasing ignore list. When you have something substansive to say, let us know. <Flush>
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. that's such a silly argument
The idea that somehow Dean would have deviated from his public positions on issues (e.g., Iraq) if he'd "had" to vote for it is just silly.

Did Kerry's public statements differ from his vote? Did Lieberman's? Edward's? Gephardt's? Graham's? Kucinich's?

No, of course not. And Dean's wouldn't have either. There would be no benefit to it. Publicly announcing a position in front of huge crowds and the media is no less public than a vote.
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gate Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. You're far off base...Kucinich and Dean
"oofta -intolerant"? The so called taboo you mentioned, is the parade trumpting anthem of the democratic party. The rest of that paragraph is meaningless rhetoric. Who hasn't promised to send Bush back to Texas? Everybody and their grandmother that slightly associates themselves with the democratic party has promised to send Bush back to Texas.

Dean is a centrist, his record speaks volumes on that account. He's being painted as an extremist and that ever so shameful word liberal, so that progressives will be taken in and actually nominate him to run against Bush. Simultaneously, the major media is marginalizing Kucinich by not giving him proper air time for his views. The corporate controlled media that is in bed with the government and status quo of things as long as they get their interests met, which are primarily (although not solely) profit driven, and the administration know that Dean can be torn apart on many issues that he would try to take Bush on against. In addition to this, Dean is known for not holding true to what he tells his constituency. Which will lead me into a few points that I will bring up at the end...

But first, you're wrong about being hated frankly. We're not hated, we're ignored...the progressive/liberal community is treated like it doesn't even exist, even by most dems. It's been that way for far too long. I personally don't like the term "liberal" because I feel like it's become one of these hollow terms like democrat and republican...very few things in reality divide the party solidly...because members of each one cover a wide range of views. Most of these views are still far from promoting values that most Americans believe in, like equality and justice. I mean after all, these notions are just SOOOO antiquated. Remember the huge protests against the Iraq war BEFORE it happened? Bush just went on vacation....there were barely any public statements by the White House even acknowledging the protests that were happening around the country and throughout the world. Kucinich is being ignored by the major media outlets in the very same fashion. Just like most of our sound arguements are ignored. And for one reason only, because when we have expressed our arguement eloquently and exhaustively, the points we've made cannot be refuted. Kucinich is more vocal on coporate greed than Dean is, and Kucinich has mentioned more aggressive measures that he will take for such things.

Kucinich will rewrite free trade agreements that will promote a living wage, universal worker's rights around the globe, and improved environmental standards, I don't recall Dean saying he'll do that. Kucinich supports universal health care, Dean...an ex-physician who SHOULD know better than anyone that a quality universal health care system is what is needed in this country, with ever skyrocketing insurance premiums and companies dropping coverage illegaly forcing millions and millions to go without health coverage. Kucinich will cut the bloated Pentagon budget and start a department of peace. Nobody else is saying they'll do that. Not only on these issues, but on many more Kucinich beats Dean hands down. Kucinich is the only candidate that said he'll say no to the 87 billion Georgy Peorgy wants to continue the boondoggle in Iraq. Here are a couple links that will clarify where Kucinich stands on issues compared to other candidates. whichway and comparison

Except for Kucinich, all the other democratic presidential candidates are like Bush Light...they all agree with Bush on one thing or another. Granted they vary in how they are a Bush Light, but there is no mistaking that that's what they are. And this is exactly why none of them, outside of Dennis, stands a chance. When the people are given a Bush Light vs. Original Bush, they'll pick the original because at least we know the contemptable acts to expect from this guy. It's a simple case of the devil you know. The only thing that stops somebody from being "electable" is VOTING for them. As soon as all the rational, concerned citizens out there (which I'm going to assume for the time being that most people here are) stop choosing the lesser of two evils and start voting for the best candidate, the only candidate that has a consistent record of standing up for people's rights even at personal cost to himself. Anybody out there that knows Dennis's history as mayor of Cleveland know exactly what I'm referring to. Dennis would tear Bush apart in a debate, no doubt about it, he has the philosophical convictions and record that will back him up while he rips into him. He also provides the MOST optimistic outlook for this country, something that anybody going against Bush has to convey, something Dennis does better than anybody else in the race right now. If we as the progressive community, had applied the same force behind Nader, he in theory would've been elected, or at the very least, thrusted third party politics onto the stage like never before seen in recent history of this country. I personally believe that Nader probably got the popular votes needed to qualify for federal matching funds but that both parties ensured that this tally would never see the light of day. A third party qualifying for federal matching funds?! THE HORROR! ;-) So for all the Dean supporters out there, I have a very important question to ask you, comparing Kucinich to Dean, justify why you believe Dean's stance on issues is better, point by point on issue by issue. I want a constructive dialogue, don't flame me, because I won't respond, I haven't attacked you. If you fail to take up my challenge, you only prove that my arguement is superior by default. But if we do start a constructive dialogue then perhaps we can come to understand eachother. I know I can justify the issues that I support Dennis on and will happily do so, but first, I need to see the same from any Dean supporters.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Dean has supported universal standards and he got his butt flamed
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 05:29 AM by Classical_Liberal
by Lieberman over it. Remember Lieberman's comments about the Dean recession. I simply think Dean is a winner. He is also earned alot of money from non corporate sources and will be independent of those coporate sources with a shit load of campaign cash and voluteer support to beat Bush with. He is also candidate giving the beltway the biggest hissy fits, so he must be damn good. He won't sign trade agreements that don't recognize workers right. Left a message on my answering machine saying precisely that. I don't smell the fear on the elites with Kucinich that I smell with DEan.
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Great post CL..."the smell of fear"....oh yeah
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gate Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
30. You didn't really answer my question...
What universal standards does Dean support? Not universal health care, although you're not talking about that, you are bringing up free trade agreements. Dean doesn't have to sign any free trade agreements that don't support worker's rights because they already exist and he has directly said that he would NOT pull out of the WTO and NAFTA. Two things Kucinich would do and then follow up with rewriting the global free trade agreements. The reason Kucinich will pull out of NAFTA and the WTO are because they were designed and written with legal loopholes one can drive a mack truck through. One must look at NAFTA and WTO from a legal perspective. These are legal contracts between the countries involved. The WTO is primarily decided by corporate interests and entities, not humanitarian or social concerns. The WTO if focused solely on profit. NAFTA has environmental protections written into it, but the WTO overrides NAFTA and therefore these regulations are not imposed. Once withdrawl is announced it takes 6 months for that agreement to be nullified. This is when Kucinich will propose his alternatives which he has already stated would strengthen environmental standards, support a living wage for every member country, and also give universal worker's rights. In addition to this, Kucinich would immediately ratify the Kyoto treaty, actually he'll probably surpass the Kyoto treaty.

So all in all, you really haven't answered my question. I asked for a point by point, issue by issue comparison and justification of why you support Dean. Simply saying that "he is a winner" is empty rhetoric, anybody is a winner if we VOTE for them. As far as grassroots campaigning, Kucinich is doing the same thing. And as far as the beltway goes...that's the corporate doing their thing, which I mentioned in my previous post. Ergo, your points are not valid and did not lend any substance to why you support Dean.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Hi gate!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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gate Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. Thanks! :-D
Thanks for welcoming me. So Brooklyn eh? That's funny cuz I was in a production of Arsenic and Old Lace, which is set in Brooklyn I believe (I know it's New York). So who do you support if I may ask?
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. Horseshit
Dean is known for not holding true to what he tells his constituency.

That is not true. Dean busts his ass to do the things he says he wants to do. He's the most honest politician I've ever seen. I also live in Vermont. If he was the evil-doer you claim we wouldn't have re-elected him 5 more times.
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gate Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. Dean doesn't ever say anything
Sure Dean says we have to fix stuff, but he never proposes a solution. By the way, you didn't answer my question! Once more, I asked for a point by point, issue by issue, justification of why you support Dean over Kucinich. You did not do this. For the record I did not call Dean an evil doer. What I want from you, and other Dean supporters, is to explain why you believe Dean's stance on the issues is better than Kucinich's. Don't give me empty rhetoric, because it only makes you sound like a classic politician.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
21. I just wanted to say
That I like Kucinich a lot and agree with much of what he says, and I have never attacked him.
But I am a realist and know that he is unlikely to win the nomination, not because he is a bad guy but because he just does not have the support he needs to do it. And I know that if some of us that support Dean go over to him that it will assure a Clark victory.
I can only hope that Kucinich has a prominent role in the next administration like VP or some cabinet position. And I feel Dean would be open to that unlike any of the other candidates.
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gate Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. Answer my question please!
I'm glad you like Kucinich, and if you agree with him more than anybody else, that's who you should be supporting. Kucinich can win the nomination, he has a huge chance, as long as we spread the word and vote for him. What is it with people thinking that the good guy can never win? All we have to do is rally around him! Quit supporting the lesser of two evils. And supporting Kucinich will not ensure a Clark victory. Clark, could never get the nomination, primarily because he is a military man and would not be trusted by most democratic voters.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
22. The big difference between Dean and Kucinich is that Dean knows how to
implement social justice issues in the face of antagonism from the right. He may not be leading the charge initially, like with civil unions, but when he was forced by the Vermont Supreme Court to deal with it, Gov. Dean asked the Vermont Legislature to draft a civil unions bill. At the time Dean was doing this, Hawaii and Michigan(I think), who also were ordered by their supreme courts to do the same think as Vermont, chose to rewrite their constitutions to not allow civil unions.

Dean does believe in social justice issues, but he is also pragmatic and reserves his energy for the fights that he can win. Kucinich would be expending too much energy in fights that have no hope of winning and this country would end up losing a lot more than gain, and the rightwing backlash would come back even fiercer than before.
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. here here...
I totally agree, "Idealism without illusions" ...

BTW, I heard a faux commentator say that the *BUSH administration most fears Dean. They feel they can handle Clark and the others, but Dean Scares them! YEAH! Interesting coming from Faux news huh?!
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gate Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. how do we lose?
First you didn't answer my question, which only makes me believe, that Dean supporters cannot reasonably answer my question. Second, you are operating from a base of false assumptions. Over 50% of this country's elligible voters, traditionally abstain from voting because they can't get behind either party's candidate. Kucinich is drawing people from this pool, as well as from the third party pool. Most people DO support Kucinich's platform, if you and other Dean supporters could stop with the negative thinking and follow what your heart and/or soul tells you is right then Dennis would win hands down. As for civil unions, Kucinich supports same sex marriage, so his stance is better than Dean's. Dean has traditionally waffled on issues of gay rights. Yes, he did have the civil union bill drafted in vermont, but AND THIS IS THE MAJOR POINT is that same sex unions don't have the legal protections under this bill. That is the whole reason homosexual couples want to have the legal right to marry, so that they have the legal protections afforded to straight couples.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #8
24. The thing that the far left forgets...


you're not electing a guy to represent you and 12 of your friends at the sierra club meeting.

The nominee will represent the whole party, not the fringe on the farthest left wing of the party. I want a moderate, not an extremist, and Kucinich is an extremist. Extremism, be it left or right, is a foolish and destructive force in leadership.
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. What is Bush? n/t
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gate Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. Stop with the empty rhetoric!
Okay, your post just annoyed me, because it clearly had no thought involved in it whatsoever. YOU DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION!!! And yes, I'm yelling because I'm annoyed. If you are going to respond, supply something meaningful that has substance. My question, once more is that I want Dean supporters to justify point by point, issue by issue why they believe Dean's position is better than Kucinich's. So far none of these posts have done that. I'm lucky if one of you has even lightly touched upon a specific issue. Your post didn't even bring up an issue, you made a grand generalization that Bush is known for doing so well. Remember how he divided the world into evil doers and good guys and how we are ALWAYS the good guys because we are?! I'm not going to accept that crap from Bush, and I'm not going to accept it from the democratic party either. Why do you think the dems are in the toilet they are in now?
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
36. Great post! I hate to bring you some bad news, though -- most people
on DU won't appreciate it. In your last paragraph you wrote,

As soon as all the rational, concerned citizens out there (which I'm going to assume for the time being that most people here are) stop choosing the lesser of two evils ...

- Most people on DU are not up to the level you're apparently anticipating. People here are very happy with sellouts and choosing the lesser evil. In fact, they don't even know that that is what they are doing -- they do it happily, enthusiastically. If you stick around for a few days, I guarantee you'll see what I mean.
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gate Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. thanks for the support!
Okay Rich, so help me out here, how do we wake people up?
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whirlygigspin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
13. replace the gerbils with pirahnas
what a great line!
For this alone you should vote Dean!

I'm sorry if you find Dean offensive, personally, I hope
he creates a bloodbath in DC.

Kick ass, re-regulate the air waves and sends them all
running for the exits, pulling their hair and gnashing their
teeth.

Wake the FUCK UP!
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. I am with you wgs....like to see that "bloodbath" happen
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priller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
17. "he is despised by all the right people"
Howard Dean has reached an essential benchmark on the way to becoming a truly great President of the United States - he is despised by all the right people.

BINGO!

BTW, I can't wait until the primaries are over and we can finally stop all the Dem candidate bashing. So discouraging...
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
23. Wait a second, Podvin! "Peace activists who defamed the Israeli flag with
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 11:10 AM by KoKo01
Swastika's" What the Hell does this sentence mean? I never saw any of this at Demostrations against Iraq Invasion that I attended. I think this is a dreadful smear against those of us who were against Iraq Invasion and was shocked to see this in his article...after reading such a glowing account of Dean!

"And he is a strong supporter
of Israel’s right to exist, which is the kiss of death for his chances among the peace activists who march while
waving Israeli flags they have defaced with swastikas. "

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Castilleja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
34. Well, Kick!
:kick:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. yeah! Kick it! Podvin says that I as an Anti'Iraq Protestor, carried NAZI
Israeli flag with Swastikas? I've always been a fan of Podvin....what the Hell is this.....He trashed ME! Nd, any of us who protested against BUSH'S WAR II!......This was dreadful........is he on drugs or what?
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