Josh Marshall's response this morning to criticizing Dean

[kstewart33]

From http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com:

"My own feeling is that the only real Democrats are those who will support the party's eventual nominee, end of story. There is an awfully distressing tendency among a minority of Dean supporters to serve up no end of lacerating comments about other candidates and then to react with a sort of stunned and outraged shock when anyone criticizes their guy. It's the flip side of seeing the race in such heroic, if not messianic dimensions. The primary is actually not concluded yet. And, pace John Calvin, I assume the outcome is not predetermined. So it is still permitted to criticize Mr. Dean and not be an enemy of democracy."

[EagleEye]

1. Spoken Like a True enemy of Democracy

They are sneaky, you know.

[EagleEye]

3. Should I say "JOKE" after these?

[quinnox]

2. Marshall is an excellent writer

I agree with him, I have observed the same thing here on DU.

[Padraig18]

4. So have I...

and it's not JUST the Dean supporters who do it.

[Cha]

12. Oh you have have you? And have you also noticed the other

candidates' supporters are the Same way?

[depakid]

26. Please-

The man is shallow. I'd rather look at cat tracks on the hood of my car.

[killbotfactory]

5. I've never noticed that among supporters of other candidates.

:eyes:

[EagleEye]

6. Now you're joking, right?

[killbotfactory]

7. Yes.

Marshall made me break out the roll-eyes.

Fanatics make up a percentage of each candidates supporters. It's not Dean's fault he has so much more supporters than the rest of the candidates... or maybe it is.

[kstewart33]

8. Dean has more support than the other candidates?

Have you seen the Newsweek poll just out? Seems that Clark is leading the pack after 3 days' campaigning.

[zeemike]

10. And that dosen't make you wonder?

[Code_Name_D]

15. The same polls tells us that Bush is a populer presdent.

Sudnly we see the libiral biased mediea pop up all over the place, don't we.

[Romberry]

17. You mean the same Newsweek that...

...six weeks ago still had Joe Lieberman as the "front runner"? That Newsweek?

Repeat after me: National opinion polls in a nomination process that is based on state primaries and caucuses mean nothing.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

19. Keep saying it.

It'll sink in eventually.

[Rose Siding]

18. By 2 pts with a 6 pt MOE among 377 people

That's definitive enough for you?

All the articles quote the 1001 polled with a 3 pt MOE but that was only true fir the Bush approval questions.

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04dem.htm

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

[virtualobserver]

9. Josh Marshall is the voice of Bush-lite.......

Preserving the status quo.

His "example" letter of a Dean supporter.....

I haven't met anyone who has a "Dean or I won't vote" mentality.
I am unimpressed.

Dean supporters are attracted to him because of their passion to remove Bush.

[WillyBrandt]

11. You smear Josh Marshall

by calling him Bush lite. He has critcized Bush consistently and forcefully. Sorry, Dean doesn't have a monopoly of that.

[virtualobserver]

13. he has also justified Bush's actions in many ways...

It is not a smear to point out that reality.

[Nlighten1]

14. Well...

Josh supported the war and tends to critisize Bush in ways that are reminicent of the DLC so I see his/her point.

[Cha]

22. No ...but Dean does it the Best!

:-)

[jonnyblitz]

25. he always seemed kinda establishment moderate to me.

like a " the new republic" type of guy.

[Romberry]

16. Marhsall is sometimes right...

...and sometimes wrong. Here he posts a single email and calls it a "sampling". One email does not a sampling make.

Josh has had a hard on for Dean seemingly since the beginning. Dunno why. Maybe the same reason he had a hard on to go to war in Iraq.

Dean has his share of rabid supporters, this is true. (And isn't it nice to see a Democrat that can actually inspire rabid support for a change?) But for months and months you couldn't start or participate in a Dean thread here (or just about anywhere) that wasn't immediately siezed on by supporters of "elite" candidates who were "electable" or other candidates who were "real liberals". I myself pleaded with people to do what Dean supporters were doing then which was by and large spending time pumping up their candidate and basically ignoring others. I am not the least surprised that some Dean supporters finally got tired of it and started returning fire. I don't like it and I don't think it's smart but I'm not surprised.

As far as the "real Democrats" thing Marhsall trots out, well, the fact is that at least a portion of Dean supporters aren't Democrats at all. They are moderate Republicans, Greens or even people who have never been involved with the political process at all at any level.

Josh Marshall has his opinion. I have mine. My opinion is that Josh needs to spend less time "inside the beltway" and less time "preaching from on high". The man is human and he makes mistakes. See his support for war in Iraq as exhibit A.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

20. Just what is it that Marshall said here that you folks disagree with?

"My own feeling is that the only real Democrats are those who will support the party's eventual nominee"

Do you disagree with that?

"distressing tendency among a minority of Dean supporters"

Do you disagree with that?

"The primary is actually not concluded yet."

Do you disagree with that?

"the outcome is not predetermined."

Do you disagree with that?

" it is still permitted to criticize Mr. Dean and not be an enemy of democracy."

Do you disagree with that?

lol

[virtualobserver]

27. he was an advocate for war.

and I'm not laughing out loud about that.

[Cha]

30. No wonder I don't like marshall...

and no wonder marshall doesn't like Dean!

Totally two different ways of lookin' at the World! Our World!

[indigo32]

28. No

but I do find " it is still permitted to criticize Mr. Dean and not be an enemy of democracy" to be rather snide and divisive....

[Cha]

29. marshall is very very "snide"...and a tad bit disingenious...

[madfloridian]

31. Others have been quoting him as a source too much.

That is my problem. He has his own candidate. He is the one who first said that Dean invited Clark to be VP, yet the only source for that was the website drafting Clark. I asked him and others to provide the source of how Dean was manipulating. No answer yet.

It is another he said we said with no one showing the words Trippi or Dean said. They said they had talked. If you say someone undermined Clark, then you should have more than the blog of a Clark (or is it Kerry...can't remember) supporter.

I like his TPM. I just think he has been quoted here a lot as someone who had even views. That is my objection mainly. I read his site a lot, but I realize he has his own candidate and his own goals. Dean is not one of them. That is fine, just don't quote him as an impartial source.

I commented the other day on the extensive posting here of his comments about Dean.

[Cha]

21. My e-mail to josh marshall...

"I consider it a compliment that you don't like Dean...keep up the good work. It just makes us more determined.

We are Grassroots and will Not be deterred by the status quo.

You comment that "There is an awfully distressing tendency among a minority of Dean supporters to serve up no end of lacerating comments about other candidates and then to react with a sort of stunned and outraged shock when anyone criticizes their guy. It's the flip side of seeing the race in such heroic, if not messianic dimensions."

It's not only Dean supporters who do that...No ..we do Not have the market cornered on that and to say so is only being disingenuous.

So "criticize" away...Govenor Dr Dean is strong enough and tough enough to handle Anything you throw out."

xoxox oxoxox
xoxo xoxxo

[wtmusic]

23. Marshall offers this as a 'contradiction'

Part of Howard Dean's political draw today seems to be the fact that he didn't allow himself to be fooled by arguments about Iraq's WMD. Thus this line Thursday at a speech to the Greater Nashua Chamber of Commerce in New Hampshire ...

'The most important piece of foreign policy is judgment. The other four fellas who supported the (Iraq war) resolution all now say they were misled by the White House. If you were misled by the president and you were in Washington, what kind of experience is that if I could have figured it out in Vermont.'

But what about what Dean said on Face The Nation a couple weeks before the war resolution vote, when asked what the president would have to do to prove that there was an immediate threat justifying war ...

'I don't think he really has to prove anything. I think that most Americans, including myself, will take the president's word for it. But the president has never said that Saddam has the capability of striking the United States with atomic or biological weapons any time in the immediate future.'

Two different issues; whether the war authorization was justified vs. whether the President has the right to respond to an immediate threat.

Poor logic.

[Cha]

24. I'm like ..."HUh?"...."poor logic", indeed!

I'm glad I wrote that e-mail.

[w4rma]

32. If I had access to my email (Isabel killed my power. I'm at the library)

account, I'd send him a list of links to various posts by some of the Kerry zealots here on DU. Mostly relative newbies to DU and way more cultish and negative than anything I've seen out of any Dean supporter. "Remove thy beam in your own eye before removing one from another", Kerry zealots.

flame retardant suit on. MAD policy in effect.