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AngryYoungMan Donating Member (856 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:28 AM
Original message
In the end, it's Dean.


Thinking it through, you have to acknowledge that it's a highly unusual situation. All the ground rules have shifted.

And you have to give it to Dean. Out of everyone, he's emerged as the man of the hour; the one who can navigate these difficult political waters and stay afloat, of his own volition, through his own strength.

So, you have to give it to Dean. He's the expression of the meaning of this moment. There's Bush....and there's Dean. It's perhaps as simple as that. Clark is a clever manipulation of the existing fabric. Dean is something new.
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Totally agree.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. Dean's message that works
when all else fails, try the truth
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. Dean's message
START with the truth, and clarity on the subject helps a great deal.

;-)

Eloriel
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. Funny thing about recent American politics...
Just when you think you have it all figured out, it veers off in a direction you never though you would see.

That kind of shit wreaks holy hell on the complacent.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. Hear Hear...
and I'm not the teenybopper that so many Dems wish that I were. I'm a man that has been through many elections and is tired of the bullshit put forth by the DNC. I want to vote for the guy that I THINK is capable of leading this nation and not the guy that YOU THINK is capable.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Makes no sense
"I'm a man that has been through many elections and is tired of the bullshit put forth by the DNC"

The DNC spends all day bashing Bush. What are you talking about? The DLC is something very different, which Dr. Dean was a happy member of, and which his followers love bashing.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Hogwash...if I were talking about the DLC I would have been...
Edited on Sun Sep-21-03 12:50 AM by unfrigginreal
much more critical! The DNC has has made subversive stabs at Dean throughout his campaign. Just look at the Pelosi initiated letter to Dean over his MidEast stance...of course it doesn't make any difference that the signers of the letter were demogouging the issue...they got thier point across...Dean Is An AntiSemite, right?

Don't try to lecture me on the DNC, they're only slightly above the DLC when it comes to true Democratic values. Fuck them both!
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. You got it, unfrigginreal
In spades.

Eloriel
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. Nonsense squared
"Don't try to lecture me on the DNC, they're only slightly above the DLC when it comes to true Democratic values. Fuck them both!"

No. This is totally false, and barely makes up in poison what it lacks in truth.

The DNC isn't the goddamn Politburo sending out monolithic signals. There are a ton of people part of the National Democratic party. Some like this candidate, some like that candidate. Pelosi--surprise, surprise--is partial to her predecessor in the House. Some Senators--surprise, surprise--like Kerry. The Arkanas delegation in the House--surprise, surprise--endorsed Clark. But, hell, they didn't all endorse Holy Howard, so they have deviated from the One True Path.

The DNC has, wouldn't you know, begun more and more imitating Dean in his methods. You'd call that the highest form of flattery, if you could see past the smoke and through the venom. Even members of the DLC and the New Democrat Network have struck back at the Dean bashing: Al From still bitches and mones, but you'll notice things are far more muted from those guys.

"...Dean Is An AntiSemite, right?"'

NO ONE accused Dean of being an anti-Semite, ever. To interpret it that way is the shallowest, sickest self-pity. He was challenged on his statements on Israel--where I agree with Dean--but to conjure an accusation of anti-Semitism out of thin air is disgusting.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. You are so far removed from reality!
The DNC is EXACTLY like the Politboro, they have their candidates and they WANT THEM TO WIN!

Too bad for Dean since he's the anti-semite(according to the DNC) in the group. I'm still hopeful that most of our Jewish constituants won't fall for the ignorant positions propagated by the Bushies!
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Self-Refutations
"The DNC is EXACTLY like the Politboro, they have their candidates and they WANT THEM TO WIN!"

This is proven by the liberal use of capital letters.

"Too bad for Dean since he's the anti-semite(according to the DNC) in the group. I'm still hopeful that most of our Jewish constituants won't fall for the ignorant positions propagated by the Bushies!"

Who in the DNC called him an anti-Semite? WHO? Are you one of those right-wing trolls who gets paid to ruin sites like DU?

Tell me the names of some DNC bigwigs who called Dean an anti-Semite. Nobody called him that. Nobody even insuinated that. There was an argument about Israel, where Dean was right, that never devolved in any way into accusations of anti-Semitism.

Oh well, sometimes lies are the children of anger. Cure that shit.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
5. False -- Clark's Qualities Will Shine Through
"Clark is a clever manipulation of the existing fabric. Dean is something new."

Clark is a patriot who has nobly served his nation for over thirty years. A general who know very well the travails of war, who has very deep thoughts about foreign policy, and progressive instincts (wait for the policy to be fleshed out) on domestic policy. He has never held political office, unlike Dean. Clark seems pretty new to me.

Dean would make a good president, but he is a clever politician riding the wave of a well done populist insurgency. If you don't think Dean is a clever manipulator of the existing fabric--which anyone must be in order to win--then you are kidding yourself.

"In the end, it's Dean." Nonsense. In the end, it's whoever wins the primaries. Nobody--not Dean, not Clark, not Clinton, nobody--owns the Democratic Party. Kerry was annointed the winner months ago; now Dean's supporters are annointing him. Don't kid yourself: Clark's first polls are great, and he can crush Bush in a way that Dean cannot.
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AngryYoungMan Donating Member (856 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Let me try to clarify.
When I say that "Clark is a clever manipulation of the existing fabric," I'm not taking away from his career or his record. I'm talking about the role he plays within the structure of the Democratic party. Clinton's role, and the DNC's role, in Clark's candidacy are part of what I'm referring to when I say "clever manipulation." The fact is, Dean is significant for that reason if for no other; that he clearly caught the party hierarchy unawares, and doesn't represent their desires for the party. I'm just trying to make clear that I've got nothing against Clark. But he's the new face of the old machine. Dean is the proverbial "wrench in the gears"; the revolutionary figure.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. You have it exactly right!
!
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. PERFECT
"Clark is the new face of the old machine."

Absolutely, positively PERFECT.

Eloriel
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #18
39. I think it's the other way around
"Clark is the old face of the new machine"

None of which he ever innovated; the maverick puke of Arizona was kind of the prototype innovator, but Howard along with Trippi is in the process of refining it to an art

One thing you can always notice about these military general types is the ability to jump on some kind of new innovation, machine or mechanization and make work for them. My guess is that he didn't even figure out himself, but was handed to him by one of those self made billionaire thiefs.

The billionaire thieves that get their money of re-innovating a special take and even special legislation guaranteeing them a infusion of funds into their bank accounts on the public dole. The classic version of fascism; a corporate-welfare state where the ideology is that the name is the preeminence before the substance.

The biggest weakness you find about this version of fascism is its inability to weather a critique.

Their rigid symbolism is what they prefer to hide behind but is also the weakest point.






Corporate America is revelling in a Golden Age. A shrinking number of the planet's biggest businesses -- AOL Time Warner, Shell, Nike, Microsoft, McDonald's -- are the money behind presidents, the power that drives global trade rules, the voice of authority on how we live and the way we think. Corporations have all the rights of we, the people, but thousands of times more money to make the system work for them.

We call this system "democracy." But today it looks a lot like corporate rule.

A rebellion is building. Thousands of protesters shake up every global trade conference with calls for less corporate clout and more grassroots power. And on July 4, America's Independence Day, culture jammers delivered another blast of symbolic disobedience. Across the US and around the world, proud citizens traded the Stars-and-Stripes for today's Brands-and-Bands -- the symbol of all that's wrong with America. Five hundred Corporate America flags waved over parades and over highways, in front of Wal-Mart and the White House.
(snip)

http://www.adbusters.org/campaigns/flag/
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
6. Yes, indeedy doo!
Having 14% of the support in a field of ten is definately a victory! Not necessarily.

"Isn't it kind of early for you guys to be awarding states to people?"
- Dennis Kucinich fields questions about his poll numbers.


I think most folk would agree it's way too early to call this a done deal. :D

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
7. Dean is like our Goldwater.
His supporters are a very active contingent within the party that will organize a lot of things and push us forward.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. NOOOOO!
"Dean is like our Goldwater."

God, no! I don't want some nebulous victory coming far after the initial crushing defeat. I want to win, right now, and forever on.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Well then he is like Reagan
A sea change in Washington.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. Hope is not a plan
You are confusing style with substance. Dean is adopting the style of angry liberal populist, but he is, as he supporters love to remind us, far more a centrist than a liberal. Reagan, however, was a right-wing nutcase. Dean will not usher in a new liberalism as Reagan did with conservatism.

Kerry is much more liberal than Dean, but somehow gets called Repuke lite by folks on here. Clark has better foreign policy knowledge, and seems to have more liberal views on multilateralism, but the tinfoil hat people think he's a PNACer.

Since it's not substance, as Dean is not the most liberal, then is it style? It's good that he has fired up the base. But will Dean's style fashion a new Democratic majority? Can he attract far more to the Democratic party by power of his persona than he would repel? _This_ is what Reagan could do. Reagan was charming; he was confident and spoke well often. I don't know if Dean has it.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Yes, but he is a centrist who can accomplish things
corporate America doesn't like, because he doesn't owe them anything. I had a lot of hope in Clinton and Clinton said alot of the same things as Dean, but ultimately he couldn't betray the guys paying the bills and enacted a republican agenda. I am not opposed to centrism. I don't believe the DLC are really centrist. They are corporatist.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. What's the definition of a 'centrist' who isn't a 'corporatist'?
And kindly watch for question-begging in your response.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #19
46. ah yes, a couple of good items
Dean is adopting the style of angry liberal populist

IMO he's doing just-angry-enough. Though I like lots of Kucinich's ideas he comes off as too angry. Dean saw the anger here in America and has tapped into it. As things go, it seems more Americans are waking up to the reality of what BushCo has wrought and they too are getting angry. It cracks me up how pundits don't get it. It also speaks volumes how some Dem. candidates do not get it either.

Dean will not usher in a new liberalism as Reagan did with conservatism.

I'd be happy just to see the current fascism undone but I suspect Dean plans to accomplish more than that.

Kerry is much more liberal than Dean, but somehow gets called Repuke lite by folks on here.

I agree with this 100%. But the thing about politics is this, what have you done for me lately? Sure, a laundry list of liberal service goes to Kerry and the war hero thing too. However, he's hardly been a shining star when it comes to standing up to the Junta. While we have watched fascism spread the bravest, loudest voice was consistently 85 yr. old Byrd. If I'd've seen/heard Kerry doing what Byrd had, I'd be working like a dog for him. What really matters now is the Bush years. What did you do for us during this dark time? That is the question.

Clark has better foreign policy knowledge, and seems to have more liberal views on multilateralism, but the tinfoil hat people think he's a PNACer.

Yes, I have seen mention of it. Frankly I don't like the fact that he seems chosen. As though the current field wasn't quite what certain folks had in mind (or maybe their choice in the field hadn't caught fire as hoped?--no telling). As to the PNAC thing, I make no comment as I do not know enough about Clark on that matter.


Since it's not substance, as Dean is not the most liberal, then is it style? It's good that he has fired up the base. But will Dean's style fashion a new Democratic majority? Can he attract far more to the Democratic party by power of his persona than he would repel? _This_ is what Reagan could do. Reagan was charming; he was confident and spoke well often. I don't know if Dean has it.


This is something only time can tell of course. So far it seems that Dean can bring in lots of new faces. Just here in my local meet-ups I have met so many folks who never got into politics beyond voting. They are angry at what Shrub has done but also hopeful for a better future and Dean speaks for and to them (so they tell me).

As time goes by we will see just what Dean can accomplish. I am optimistic.

Good post.

Julie

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Ha I didn't mean in that sense.
But still, whatever happens, we've already stirred up something I don't think will stop for a very long time.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. More like our Rockefeller
Edited on Sun Sep-21-03 12:54 AM by no name no slogan
the approach is "new" (although well-tested at the congressional level by the likes of Wellstone, Feingold, Kucinich, et al), but the message and positions are the same ol' DLC line the Dems have used over and over.

If we continue to play the "electability" game, we're going to get beat. If we speak the truth to the American people (and not just the yuppies who inhabit cyberspace and Starbucks) and stand by our convictions, we'll kick some serious GOP patootey :spank:

No matter WHO our nominee is :D
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UnapologeticLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
29. I wrote an article to that effect in April
But now I think he may actually have a shot at winning.

Mousepads, Shoe Leather, and Hope - The Great Grassroots Campaign
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
8. We WILL take our country back.
We will.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
21. I think that if we were to vote for the candidate that best represents...
I think that if we were to vote for the candidate that best represents our views, and that has the best vision for America, one would have to admit that Dennis Kucinich is such a candidate.

This is just a gut opinion and has nothing to do with my more pragmatic choice of Howard Dean, for reasons I care not to go into right now.
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Kucinich is better off running for Senate against Voinovich
than to be an President. If any indication is correct, I think Kucinich is dropping very soon (see NH staff quitting on Kucinich), because his numbers arent just there, but he will have the funds to go against Voinovich and he's quite very vulnerable as a Repukkkk.

Hawkeye-X
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. Ohhhh how I would love to see Kucinich run against Voinovich!!
I'm definitely feeling older... I can actually remember when Ohioans had two (count 'em! 2!) iconic Democratic senators representing us. Where have you gone, Metz and Glenn??

:-(

I think the name recognition he's garnered from his presidential race would do wonders for his chances against Voinovich. Buckeye voters are craving real leadership and change, and I'd kind of like to be selfish here, and keep him all to ourselves.

I admire Kucinich's presidential campaign, and I admire his supporters, too. But if he decides to drop out in the future, I hope he'll consider coming home and getting our senate seat back.

Wishful thinking,
Jennifer
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AnAmerican Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
43. Nice try....
DK's staff has undergone some realignment. The former NE coordinator left because A) the groundwork for Dennis in NE has been laid now and B) He is running his own campaign for the Ohio House.

The campaign is far from folding. A few people leaving to pursue other interests is not indicative of problems. The campaign is actually stronger now than before due to an upswing in fundraising and good people being on the ground in NH, IA and other states.

Stay tuned friends..Dennis will stay the course and be competitive when it counts (January and beyond).
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IranianDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
28. Dean is the new McGovern and will lose 49 states if nominated.
Edited on Sun Sep-21-03 01:44 AM by IranianDemocrat
.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. This isn't fair
Look, I'm a Clark supporter, but this isn't fair. Dean wouldn't win as big as Clark, and he would not be as progressive a President as Clark or Kerry, but he can win.

He is not McGovern. Say what you will about Dean, he's running a hell of a campaign.
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CMT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. your negativity isn't helping
You can support whoever you want but I'm confident anyone we nominate can defeat Bush in 2004. If you want to be taken in by the DLC rhetoric that is up to you. From what I've seen Dean is the Jimmy Carter of '04 (Carter's first run for president has some very similar aspects as Dean's). He too was considered a longshot who had very little chance of getting the nomination or becoming president. Dean has already shown he has the stuff to get the nomination and he will bring the same tenacity to beating George Bush.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. I loved it. It was much better than /Cats/...
...I'm going to see it again and again.
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
31. In the beggining it is Dean...
to be accurate.
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
33. Clark will be ahead of Dean within two months unless he really screws up
Keep your eyes open.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
35. Dean is 'something new.'
What is he that's new? What's different about Dean? It's the question that is forever unanswered. Perhaps it can't be answered. Perhaps Dean is so new that words don't exist to describe what he is.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. A candidate that has a ton of grassroots support...
...that also has the biggest campaign, and innovative ways of solving the problems of a political campaign (organizing, taking donations, and responding to the political climate from the internet). Clark has never campaigned for anything before and may not have that strong of a campaign machine. None of the other candidates do either.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Grass roots support is nothing new,
and the internet is being used by all the candidates to raise funds and so on. Dean's campaign certainly didn't invent using the internet during a campaign. Having the 'biggest' campaign is new?
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #38
47. No, he didn't invent it
but you've got to hand it to Dean, he's the first to "get it" and fully exploit the potential. He's reaping the benefits in spades.

I've been mightily impressed with his web campaign and nonplussed by the other candidates' (with the exception of Clark, who's only gearing up his campaign) ceding the medium to him. Virtually all of them have created websites as "brochureware", but Dean actually has a personal presence, posting frequent musings and news. His turn as "guest blogger" on Lawrence Lessig's weblog was a canny move -- in oldskool terms, it was like subbing for a TV pundit or sitting in with a popular band.

What he's been doing is much like Truman's whistlestop tours, except it lands him in homes worldwide (for virtually no cost!). And it's enabled Dean to parlay his efforts into the coin of the realm -- mainstream media coverage. I'm convinced his success as a candidate would be severely hobbled without the Web.

Dean's not my guy, but I've gotta admire how he's seized the moment and run with the new technology -- it's a short window before it becomes pedestrian and the benefits negligible, and he sprinted right through it.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #38
48. For a grassroots effort...
...I think it is. Certainly has gotten a lot of attention.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. The difference that could come telling later
The thing I noticed first when I listened to Clark is that he tries to force his self on the audience. This technique may work well with a captive group of a bunch of GI's, but can turn a lot of other people off pretty quick. Sometimes it seems to me that fanaticisms about a message is even worse than a corporate capitalism in certain venues.

http://www.adrants.com /



The 'Tired' is the new Yuppie. Tired stands for Thirtysomething Independent Radical Educated Drop-out. Aside from being a mouthful, the term attempts to describe a segment that is bored with modern life and thinks marketing is a bunch of crap.

The term comes from London public relations firm The Fish Can Sing. Managing Partner Howard Beale says tireds seek to a life with less demand and deeper reward with a certain avoidance of mainstream commercialism. In short, they have pulled the plug and "turned off" the daily marketing scream.

While this has been researched as a phenomenon in India and South Asia, its relevance to America can been seen as well. Many thirtysomethings just don't want to have anything to do with the marketing blather that accost them on a daily basis.
(snip)
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
41. WRONG. In the end
The love you take is equal to the love you make.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Yea, but some people think you can run a deficit
Some times it just amazes me of the contempt people have for the fellow persons that surround them.

http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen09182003.html
Wesley Clark for President?
Another Con Job from the Neo-Cons
By WAYNE MADSEN

Let it never be said the neo-conservatives are not persistent. That's why they must be rounded up by the FBI and charged with violating the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) statutes. But let's save that issue for another time.

The latest trick of the neo-cons is running retired General Wesley Clark for President as a Democrat. But not just any Democrat -- a "New Democrat." The same bunch that are pushing Joe Lieberman's candidacy are obviously hedging on their bets and want to have Clark in the race as a potential vice presidential candidate (to ensure their continued influence in a future Democratic administration of Howard Dean, John Kerry, or Dick Gephardt) or as a "go-to" candidate in the event that Lieberman stumbles badly in the first few Democratic primaries next year.

The "New Democrats" (neo-cons) are as much masters at the perception management (lying) game as their GOP counterparts (Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, and Donald Rumsfeld). Clark's presidential candidacy announcement in Little Rock is one warning sign. This city is a sort of "Mecca" for the neo-con Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) and its main nurturers, Al From and Bruce Reed. It was from Little Rock where the DLC propelled a little known governor named Bill Clinton into the White House. And although Clinton did not turn out exactly as conservative as the DLC hoped for, his support for globalization and selected use of U.S. military power abroad were neo-con keystone successes.

Now enter "Arkansan" Wesley Clark. Like Hillary Clinton, Clark is a Chicago transplant to Little Rock. And he is about as power driven as the former First Lady. According to Pentagon insiders, when Clark was Commander of the US Southern Command in Panama from June 1996 to July 1997, he was fond of "ordering" Latin American military commanders and defense ministers to appear before him. Some of the Latin American officials, particularly those from Brazil, Argentina, and Chile, refused to be bullied by Clark, whose personality is said to be acerbic. From his pro-consul position in Panama, Clark supported with US military advisers and American mercenaries, continued warfare against anti-oligarchic movements in Colombia, Peru, Guatemala, Mexico, and Bolivia.
(snip)
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 07:23 AM
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44. Dean is 'the man of the hour'
too bad voting in NH is many thousands of hours away.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-03 07:50 AM
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45. And many BILLIONS of dollars away in deficits also
Any frikin politician that votes to gives that criminal and fraud another dollar to keep any of that thing going or in place is also a traitor. With the tens of thousands of lives already lost in Iraq there is no going back to fix anything, its already a mess that should have never been started.

http://www.antiwar.com/paul/paul77.html

We Cannot Afford Another $87 Billion in Iraq
Rep. Ron Paul

The neo-conservative media machine has been hard at work lately drumming up support for the $87 billion appropriation to extend our precarious occupation of Iraq. Opposition to this funding, according to the Secretary of Defense, encourages our enemies and hinders the war against terrorism. This is a distortion of the facts and is nothing more than attacking the messenger when one disapproves of the message.

Those within the administration, prior to the war, who warned of the dangers and real costs were fired. Yet now it turns out that they were correct, that it would not be a cakewalk, that it would require a lot more troops, and costs would far exceed original expectations.


The President recently reminded us that we went into Iraq to force its compliance with U.N. resolutions, since the U.N. itself was not up to the task. It was not for national security reasons. Yet we all know that the U.N. never endorsed this occupation.


The question we in the Congress ought to ask is this: What if our efforts to westernize and democratize Iraq do not work? Who knows? Many believe that our pursuit of nation building in Iraq will actually make things worse in Iraq, in the entire Middle East, throughout the entire Muslim world, and even here in the United States.
(snip)
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