Koran being flushed down the toilet is not a big deal!

[sabra]

Not for the * administration... not until they realized the ramifications and reactions to those who find the Koran and it's writings to be sacred.

Think about it, they teach our soldiers to think of the "enemy" as ragheads and camel fuckers. We already know of the atrocities that have occurred in Abu Graihb and Gitmo.

Why would desecrating a book with some silly Arabic writing be a big deal ?

[yorgatron]

1. i'm sure book burning wouldn't be a big deal either,

unless you burned some bibles.

[forgethell]

9. I don't know about that, either.

Some preachers might give an impassioned sermon on TV, or something. There would be no riots with 16 people killed.

[SoCalDem]

2. They must have really big toilets..

a washcloth is about all I could flush down my toilet:)

Most korans I have seen are pretty big books :shrug:

[GreenArrow]

4. it's easy

tear out a few pages, flush 'em. Tear out a few pages, flush 'em. Or just throw the whole thing in the toilet and flush. It doesn't matter if it all goes down, it's the thought that counts.

[Tinoire]

5. It's not toilets... No such luxury in the prisons

It's more like buckets and containers that the prisoners squat over to do their business in a very animal-like, degrading manner. The Korans, from what I read were plunged into those waste buckets.

Very nasty business, no pun intended. :(

[warrior1]

3. well they did flush

0ur constitution. What's the koran to these nazis

[gordianot]

6. In 1857 British did not think pork lard rifle cartridges was a big deal.

Then the Afghan mercenaries rebelled beginning of the end for British Empire in Afghanistan. Bush administration must have hired some of the same idiots, who came up with the flushing scheme. Good old Gitmo torture would not have had this reaction.

Another case of the Bush administration unifying the world.

[wuushew]

12. That was a brilliant lie cooked up by an anti-British leader

In truth those cartridges did not use animal grease at all. The myth was that the grease was a mixture of pork and cow grease, which of course was guaranteed to enrage both Muslims and Hindus.

I have seen this fact referenced on PBS, the History Channel and other places. Give me time and I can find a link.

[gordianot]

18. I have heard different theories. The lard story may have been a ruse.

Either way it shows the extraordinary power of religious convictions in this part of the world. This was the first use of the muzzle loading Enfield rifle. The grease was used to seat the ball on the powder, (in the days rifling was relatively new).

Some say animal lard, others petroleum it is possible that the British didn't know since they used several vendors. At least the British were smart enough to deny it.

I understand that the Newsweek story on the Koran flushing incident was cleared by the State Department. You would think there would be someone at the State Department who would have figured out the significance of this act. I am fairly sure the current story will not be forgotten anytime soon.

I look forward to seeing your link.

[JohnnyRingo]

7. If there was pictorial proof....

That is exactaly the attitude that Buxh would adopt.

Fox pundits would poo-poo the action as a harmless tactic that saved the lives of countless soldiers.

[forgethell]

10. It is a harmless tactic.

So they get their feelings hurt. So what? It's not like being beheaded, or having your toenails pulled out, or being lashed or stoned. It's not even to the level of sleep deprivation or having to listen to Beetle's songs constantly. Those are physical, this is not.

[JohnnyRingo]

11. Yet many seem to view burning the American flag or urinating on a bible

as a cause for violent reaction.

Such disrespect for icons is only felt by those who revere them.

[forgethell]

14. What, exactly,

do you mean by "violent reaction"? In my experience, it has usually been the flag burners or their sympathizers,who did the violent actions. Although I can recall no incidents where people were killed for burning the flag. Certainly not 16. If I am wrong, I would like to know about it.

But even so, in a free country, we can disrespect the icons of others. I'm not saying it's a good thing, or a politically smart thing to do, just that it is legal.

So what these soldiers did, if they did it, is not illegal and not an issue for me. The riots on the other hand....

[JohnnyRingo]

17. You're right, it's not illegal

It's a matter of cultural respect.

I've never witnessed a flag burning or Bible desecration, thank goodness, and I oppose laws to make such gestures illegal.

I would, however, expect serious harm to prevail anyone who would use such tactics in a high visibilty situation.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I overestimate the fervor in men's hearts, but I doubt it.

[forgethell]

21. No you probably don't.

If they engage in violence, however, they should be treated like those engaging in violence. 16 people have been killed, so far. This must stop.

[JohnnyRingo]

26. Yeah....OK

[PsychoDad]

42. Those killed

Have been protesters, people willing to die for what they believe in.

Those doing the killing are the government troops of dictatorships backed by America.

You are quite right, this must stop... but not the willingness of people to demonstrate against injustice, but the willingness of the dictators to kill their own people to appease american interests.

And america's support for these dictators must stop.

[forgethell]

46. I do not

equate rioters and protestors. As long as they protest peacefully, they are within their rights. Once the riot starts it is different.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

15. i am totally opposed to government sanctioned religious desecration

i want my government to stay out of the religion business.

[forgethell]

16. But was it sanctioned?

This is assuming it happened at all, of course. Or was it just the actions of a few individuals acting more or less on their own decision. The government could issue orders that this sort of thing not happen, of course, but you can't predict every little thing that people might do.

On the whole, though, I see nothing particularly wrong with it. If Muslims live in the modern world, they'll just have to get used to being offended like the rest of us. Like it or not.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

20. the thing is

it was not done (if it was done at all) by some joe blow individual on his personal time.

it was done by people on duty in our military representing all of us.

can i as an employee burn flags or take a crap on the bible on company time? i would probably get fired because through my acts i am tarnishing my company's image.

it is one thing if these guys want to flush the koran on their own time, that's fine.

it is completely different for them to do this while representing the U.S. Military.

edit: spelling errors

[forgethell]

22. Maybe, but

as I understand it the military plans to investigate and discipline. Now the Muslim cleric that has been spouting off his mouth wants the US to turn them over to an Islamic country for punishment. Even Chimpy wouldn't be that stupid.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

23. i don't understand your position

i have seen you post in a few threads about this incident and from what i gather you seem to be saying "big deal"?

am i reading things correctly? what is your position on this issue?

just curious, thanks!

[forgethell]

24. Position is that

I think it is not a big deal. I simply don't care if they were insulted or not. In American we all, liberal and conservative alike, are constantly belittled for our beliefs. We usually manage not to kill each other.

Now, they may not want us there, but a lot of them want to come here. I find that many Muslims here feel like Islam should have a privileged position. I disagree. I like it like it is now.

I also feel that if these countries, or their people, want to join the modern world and obtain its benefits, then they also have to accept the "disadvantages". Mainly, they are going to have to interact with people who not only don't share their beliefs, but think their beliefs are ridiculous, despicable, or your negative of choice. If they want to argue about it, fine. If they want to engage in a PR war, OK. Violence is unacceptable.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

25. that's fine, i agree

but my problem is our "military representatives" are participating in acts such as these, this in turn makes all of us look like we are this petty and hateful, not to mention it totally feeds into the rhetoric of "jihad" and "holy war" that islamic extremist are trying to push.

i support any individual who wants to flush a koran, i don't support our military using this as a tool to intimidate/break detainees.

frankly, i find to counter productive and stupid.

[forgethell]

27. You're right, of course

it probably is counter]productive and stupid.

Out of curiosity, how would you bring pressure on the detainees? I'm not asking if it should be done at all. what I'm asking is, assuming you're going to do it anyway, how would you do it? Effectively?

[SheepyMcSheepster]

28. to be honest

i don't know,

of the top of my head i can't say that any certain interegation techniques jumps out at me.

i would have to read over some information on interegation techniques to really give you a good answer.

[forgethell]

29. Fair enough,

just remember, they have to be effective. Also remember, you want information that will save the lives of American soldiers. Because if those aren't your wishes, why interrogate them at all??

[SheepyMcSheepster]

30. but here we are again

indeed you need to be effective........but is desecrating their holy book actually effective? would that make you tell something you did not want to tell?

"no please, don't put that book in the toilet, i will tell you everything great satan!"

so i guess my point is, sure it may piss some people off to mess with their religious texts, but ultimately what good does it do?

imo it just helps those observing all this to decide that the U.S. is anti-islam and that is not a good thing when we can use all the islamic cooperation we can get.


this response probably sounds like i am deflecting a bit and indeed i am, i am stumped in trying to come up with effective means of getting information out of people.

it would seem there are two ways you could go about it, either treat people like shit and prove to them that you are what they believe you are or treat them fairly and win their trust.

:shrug:

tough issue.

[forgethell]

31. Actually, it is

not a tough issue at all. Because your second option is not a valid option. How are you going to win the trust of your prisoners? I don't think it can be done at all. At least without brainwashing them, a form of torture in itself. Second, it would take way to long to stop that suicide bomber.

So the only question is: can you justify, how do you justify to yourself, doing what has to be done?

So, if you are going to put pressure on them, yet want to maintain your image of yourself as a morally enlightened person do you A)let them keep quiet knowing that unknown numbers of soldiers and civilians may be killed (do you want that on your conscience), B) tear up a few pages of their "holy" book and use it for personal hygiene, or C) haul out the thumbscrews and hot pokers?

The actions you can take are not complex; this is more or less a binary problem. Do you or don't you?

This is a question; I'm not advocating true torture here. I am saying I don't care if the Koran got dissed.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

32. i don't agree

i think assuming you can't win trust is the same as assuming you can only get information out detainees via extreme torture, i believe it is a false assumption.

secondly, this scenario you have created about saving lives via information from a detainee, seems a bit romanticized. how do you know this guy has information that will save lives? if he is intent on carrying out his plan why is he going to tell you anything? any information you get could be false and people could still die (possibly killing innoccents due to false information), i just don't see how you can come out with a winning scenario with this situation.

i do care if the koran gets dissed by our Military, imo it does no good and it is disaterous on the PR side of things. imo A and B are the samething.

so i guess my argument is, doing this koran business accomplishes nothing intelligence wise and only emphasizes memes in the islamic world that work against our alleged intentions. so i have no use for it.

[forgethell]

33. Well, I've got to agree

that if it doesn't work, it should definitely be abandoned as a tactic. Why waste time.

I just don't care what happens to the Koran. Period. It is not sacred to me, and Islam does not treat Christianity, or Judaism, or any other religion, in fact, with any respect whatsoever. Have you ever heard of dhimmitude? Pagans would fare exceptionally badly in an Islamic society. Gays would have it pretty rough. What societies are the only ones still keeping black slaves? Inquiring minds ought to want to know.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

34. lol, do any religions treat other religions with respect?

i too could care less about the koran or the bible or the writings that john smith found/burried in utah.....

but the fact remains that large populations view these things as "godly" and when you insult their god you are not going to get cooperation you are only going to manufacture greater resistance and more fanatacism. i think that we would agree fanatacism is the main problem with religion and the main motivator for violence against the great satan.

in my opinion it serves no good and only results in bad, so that is why i care, i am aiming for less bad. we obviously already have PR problem with the islamic world. this does not help, it hurts, it does not aid our "mission" at all. it only divides our populations further and gives islamic extremists more ammunition to garner support with, you know the guys where are allegedly trying to counteract in the war on terrorism....

[forgethell]

35. Well, in the modern world

Christianity is not trying to forcibly convert others. Jews never have, to my knowledge. Nor are Hindus nor Buddhists. True, there are a few fanatics in all religions. Islam seems to have a much higher proportion than other religions. And most of the conflicts that these other religions are having are with, surprise, Muslims.

Christians have, in the past, forcibly converted others. However, it is not in their Scriptures that they should do so. It is not a command from their founder. It is, however, a command of Mohamed. Read the Koran. I did so right after 9/11. You can get one free at www.freekoran.com

[SheepyMcSheepster]

37. so by your interpretation of the koran

all people of islamic faith are supposed to forcibly convert heathens?

it is funny how we have gone from talking about what is acceptable for our armed forces to do while representing us to making judgements about a religion.

this begs me to ask, are you partial towards any one religion?

[forgethell]

39. Yes,

I think you have accurately summed up my interpretation of what the Koran says. However, I do not mean to imply that all Muslims want to forcibly convert others. I'm pretty sure that there are different interpretations out there. However, there are a lot of Muslims out there with the same interpretation that I hold, if I am "interpreting" what I read and see and hear correctly. I could be mistaken, but if I thought so I'd change my mind.

You're right. We have wandered off subject. I'll summarize my position. It is indeed acceptable to desecrate their symbols in preference to torture if it is effective. Like you, I am unsure whether or not it is. All this, of course, is not to justify the war or US policies. Only to say that in war, unpleasant things are allowed and done.

I've never made any secret of the fact that I'm a Christian. I'd like everybody to be one, in fact. But I limit my conversion efforts to being public about my Christianity, and explaining my beliefs to anyone who asks. Other than that I feel everyone is entitled to go to Hell in their own way. If God gives them the free choice to accept or reject Him, who am I to substitute my judgment for His?

[PsychoDad]

43. And when you get that free Quran...

You might want to auctally read these...
Let me quote these without any interpitation, I'll leave that to the intelligent readers at DU to do so for themselves.

No compulsion in religion

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion

Do not fight wars of aggression

2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors

It is wrong to oppress people.

42:42 The way (of blame) is only against those who oppress mankind, and wrongfully rebel in the earth. For such there is a painful doom.

Value justice, for all, even when it adversely affects you.

4:135 O ye who believe! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (them ye are). So follow not passion lest ye lapse (from truth) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do.

Treat everyone fairly

5:8 O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do.

Be kind toward others

7:199 Keep to forgiveness, and enjoin kindness, and turn away from the ignorant.

And finally an entire chapter that states let each person be free to believe or disbelieve whatever he or she wishes

109: The Disbelievers
1 Say: O disbelievers!
2 I worship not that which ye worship;
3 Nor worship ye that which I worship.
4 And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
5 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.


Indeed, read the Quran.

[forgethell]

44. Read the Koran, indeed

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2: 98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2: 161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2: 191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2: 193 and 8: 39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2: 216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3: 140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3: 157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3: 169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4: 74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4: 76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4: 89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5: 14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5: 54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8: 39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8: 65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8: 67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9: 2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9: 5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9: 28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9: 29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9: 41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9 : 73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9: 111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9: 123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10: 4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33: 60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41: 14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47: 4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47: 5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48: 25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48: 29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66: 9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98: 51

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)

-------



KORAN promises of houris in heaven:

Single-minded slaves of Allah... will be honored in the Gardens of delight, on couches facing one another; A cup from a gushing spring is brought round for them, white, delicious to the drinkers, wherein there is no headache nor are they made mad thereby. And with them are those of modest gaze, with lovely eyes, pure as they were hidden eggs. - Surah 37: 40-49

Lo, for those who ward off evil is a happy journey's end, Gardens of Eden, whereof the gates are opened for the, wherein, reclining, they call for plenteous fruit and cool drink therein. And with them are those of modest gaze, companions. This it is that ye are promised for the Day of Reckoning. - 38: 50-54

Lo! Those who kept their duty will be in a place secure, amid gardens and water-springs, attired in silk and silk embroidery, facing one another.... And we shall wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes. They call therein for every fruit in safety. They taste not death therein, save the first death. And He hath saved them from the doom of hell, a bounty from thy Lord. That is the supreme triumph. - 44: 51-57

Lo! Those who kept their duty dwell in gardens and delight... reclining on ranged couches. And we wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes... and we provide them with fruit and meat such as they desire.... - 52: 17-22

...Reclining upon couches lined with silk brocade, the fruit of both the gardens near to hand.... Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them.... - 55: 54-56

Those are they who will be brought nigh, in gardens of delight... reclining therein face to face. There wait on them immortal youths... and fair ones with wide, lovely eyes, like unto hidden pearls, reward for what they used to do.... Lo! We have created them a creation, and made them virgins, lovers, friends. - 56: 11-37
(Different translation) Companions with beautiful, big and lustrous eyes... virgin-pure and undefiled.

--------

Koran "sharia" punishments:

As for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah. - Surah 5: 38

[DFWdem]

38. So it's a safe bet , then,

That you were on the front line of protertors when "Christ Piss", funded by a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts, made it's debut? You remember that piece of "art" - the "artist" placed a crucifix in a jar of his urine.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

40. i wasn't on the front lines

but i would prefer that my government not spend money on things of a religious nature whether it be "pro" or "anti" religion.

so what is your position on the desecration of the koran as a means to intimidate/fluster detainees?

should it be done by representatives of the U.S. Military?

and secondly do you find these to scenarios comparable? if so how?

edit: do i appear to be on the front lines in this case?


oh and welcome to DU!
:hi:

[DFWdem]

41. My opinion

Without a doubt, if the report was accurate it was a bonehead thing to do. However, I don't see the koran as any more important than a bible, torah, or American flag. When trying to get informaiton from a prisoner, those things that are closest or most important to the prisoner are used as leverage. Right or wrong, this is how it is done in every country in the world. I'd rather they flush the koran than physically abuse people, a la Abu Ghraib. I do see a similarity between the "artist" of Christ Piss and the soldier flushing the koran - they were both funded with taxpayer money, and by extension endorsed by the US govt. I don't think the level of outrage and indignation expressed by many in the Arab world was warranted. Calls for jihad by 300 imams? It's a mass-produced book, not the Rosetta Stone. That said, it certainly didn't do much to burnish our image in the Arab world. And thanks for the warm welcome.

[formerrepuke]

8. Sarcasm aside- if Muslims were flushing bibles down the crapper

its unlikely that more than a dozen people would die in riots.

[CJCRANE]

13. I don't think

that most muslims would even think to desecrate the Bible, given that that Christians (and Jews) are considered "People of the Book". Even though muslims don't believe everything in the Bible, the Judeo-Christians stories and history are still a part of their religion.

[NuttyFluffers]

45. i really, really, really doubt that.

there's enough christianist hate out in the world that such an action would be an invitation to riots. there's tensions in several african countries between christians and muslims, enough psychos in america, and plenty of hellraising in the middle east, especially palestine, and most likely renewed flare ups in the slavic states. and that's just the most obvious reactions i can think of.

such a callous disregard for a people's embodiment of world view is just asking for trouble. essentially it is a proxy for future treatment of their own lives for many people. they take it as a sign of things to come and will fight accordingly for survival. all around a very bad move.

these neo-con xianist bastards may get their holy war yet. too bad for them 1/2 of america refuses to have their back. i won't shed a tear watching these bastards fail on the last crusade.

[seabeyond]

19. using our women as whores stripping down and smearing/pretending

to smear menstruation blood on a man is much more offensive to me. and personally i am outraged, we the people arent outraged we whore our women and degrade them in such a fashion. take this torture to the public. i am throughly disgusted

[youthere]

36. Why the hell do these inmates have a toilet in the first place?

Let those dirty bastards crap in a hole and wipe with pine cones. How many good, upstanding Christian 'mericuns have to go without a crapper so these brown bastards can shit themselves fancy? It's a disgrace I tell ya'.:sarcasm: