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Withholding communion is disobedience to Christ

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 10:50 PM
Original message
Withholding communion is disobedience to Christ
I mentioned this point in another posting, but it is important and I thought deserved discussion on its own merits

At the Last Supper, even Judas was given communion.

This is not to compare gays to Judas. Quite the contrary, Jesus seemed to like to hang out with men (the popping sound you just heard were the cerebral blood vessels of Christian Jihadis across America) and I do not think he would has a problem with gays. What he had a problem with were sanctimonious dickweeds who assigned themselves as final arbiter of what God does or doesn't approve of.

Jesus was love. So much so, that at the first communion, he did not even exclude the man he knew would betray him. If Jesus could give communion to Judas, who the Hell is this guy to claim he can withhold it from gays and there supporters? Do priests, archbishops and popes "outrank" Jesus?

Even IF you believe homosexuality is wrong, you have no right to deny them (or their supporters) communion when Jesus himself demonstrably would not do so.

So, it seems that the Catholic Church has no right to exclude ANY "sinner" from Holy Communion. This would include divorced Catholics, Kerry voters, women who use birth control or anyone not in "a state of grace".
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rwheeler31 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. It is such a shame that
the Catholic church parishioners who stood up for civil rights , and worked so hard to make immigrants love this country are reduced to this. The nut jobs have taken over the church, but they will blame the Catholics for all ills soon. True Catholic believers left a long time ago, when the church pushed its anti women stance. Anyone can receive communion, if that is important to them.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. We seem to be entering another "Dark Ages" period, with the Church leading
the way yet again.

Jesus wept.
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sundancekid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. it's exactly what this former Catholic told the Jesuit theology professor
when he passed me up for communion at the university chapel 40 years ago; when I asked him why he had done so, he told me it was because of my class paper on "What is Your Idea of Hell?" -- my answer had been to quote details from Sartre's No Exit. I looked him in the eyes and said:
"I'm very sure that if Jesus had been celebrating Mass here, He would never have passed ANYONE up for Communion, so are you not defiling Him?"

He decided not to fail me in the class, but he had already failed me in my faith. He began the shattering process of my belief in the institution of the Catholic Church -- all the others you mentioned followed.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. The Catholic Church has done more to drive me toward
atheism than the fundies (but they have done their part).
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thecai Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. That's Right, It Is Unrighteous Judgement
No one has the right to deny anyone of partaking in communion. GOD judges us, not man. Otherwise, NO ONE is worthy of communion.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-05 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Amen!
"GOD judges us, not man. Otherwise, NO ONE is worthy of communion."

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NYC2099 Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
6. Actually Judas left before the institution of the Eucharist.
As St. John explicitly states. And an individual in any mortal sin cannot receive communion, otherwise they defile Christ.

If this is the the rule of the Catholic Church, then let them believe whatever they want. If I do not want to follow them, I can follow any faith I want to.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. The Gospel of Luke contradicts John
Edited on Mon May-16-05 08:55 AM by Kelvin Mace
as does Mark and Matthew.

Luke 22:17-20

And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


Then in Luke 22:21

But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.


Matthew 26:20

Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.



Mark 14:17-22

And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.

And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?

And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.

And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.


Judas was present and received communion.

Only John claims Judas left before the breaking of bread. Luke has Jesus accuse his betrayer AFTER they broke bread.
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NYC2099 Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Good statements backing your point - You know your gospels!
But the gospels cannot contradict each other. We are just not interpreting them correctly. It is true that Johns gospel is the only one which explicitly states that Judas did not receive communion. And in scripture, things are not always arranged in chronological order by the authors. There is no scripture that explicitly says that Judas received the Eucharist.

Having said this, I do not believe that it is taught dogmatically by the Church whether Judas did receive or not. The only thing that is taught is that one in mortal sin cannot receive communion until going to confession. A priest can and must deny communion to anyone they know to be in a state of mortal sin.

The priest, by not giving communion to someone in a state of mortal sin, is helping the individual from committing an even greater sin.
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I don't recall Jesus passing out the sacrament of confession
prior to the last supper, so apparently He was not concerned about whether his disciples were in a "state of grace".

The Gospels FREQUENTLY contradict each other which is why the idea espoused by the Christian Jihadis that the Bible is the inerrant and literal word of God is ludicrous.

The Catholic church's stand on denial of communion violates the spirit of Christ's teaching. I have now show the it violates the letter as well.

If the church wishes to fall behind the argument that because the scripture can be viewed to have been written in any order, so it is up the church to interpret it, then the scripture they subscribe to is meaningless since you can change any interpretation to fit your purpose by making this claim.

Also, If the church wishes to claim that scripture does not EXPLICITLY state that Judas recived the bread, then I point out that scripture does not EXPLICITLY state that ANY apostle received it.

Matthew and Mark and Luke specifically state that ALL of the apostles were present at the Last Supper. Matthew and Mark have the accusation of betrayal before the bread and wine, Luke after.

Even in John, who has Judas leaving before the Last Supper, Jesus makes a specific point. He knows Judas has betrayed him and tells him to, in essence, finish the job. When Judas leaves, he specifically COMMANDS the apostles:

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.




Late Jesus re-iterates:

If ye love me, keep my commandments.



Apparently, the Catholic Church does NOT love Jesus because they exclude people from Christ's gift. A gift Jesus saw fit to give even to Judas Iscariot.

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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Another point I can make
Given that three Gospels contradict John, it is safe to assume that it his Gospel that by omission or order is wrong on the issue.
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teenagebambam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-05 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
9. Good homily here
which I was just looking up online this morning, having heard it in person in April 04. By Father Pat Earl at Holy Trinity Parish, Georgetown.
http://www.holytrinitydc.org/Homilies/hearl051604.htm
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-17-05 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. This should be required reading in Rome
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