The REAL Andy Stephenson scandal

[HamdenRice]

Obviously the idea that Andy's illness was a scandalous hoax is false. But in all the urgency to raise money for the surgery and then in the uproar over the allegations, we have forgotten the real scandal:

That Johns Hopkins would not perform life saving surgery without a cash deposit.

This is a national disgrace. This is separate from the disgrace that the US is the only industrialized nation without a rational health care financing system.

It is the disgrace that doctors and a hospital would not even begin treatment without proof of ability to pay. This is actually far worse than what most hospitals would do and almost all hospitals used to do. In other words, the humane thing to do is admit the patient, perform the surgery and then try to collect payment. Even if they harass or turn the bill over to a debt collection agency, they would have at least met their first moral obligation as doctors: to heal the sick, rather than ensure a profit. Even if the health costs eventually drive the indigent patient into insolvence -- better bankrupt than dead, I suppose.

In any other context we would be outraged. If you read a newsstory about a man who emerged from the desert at a 7-11 and asked for bottled water, how would you react if the clerk refused to give the water unless the man proved that he had the $1 lined up? What if the clerk said, you just have to die of thirst, because you don't have the money? Why does JH get away with this?

When health care "reform" took off a few years ago, hospitals began the disgraceful practice of turning away even mortally wounded accident and crime victims here in NYC. That's right: you take a gut shot as an innocent bystander of a drive by shooting, and the hospital would not let you out of the ambulance or treat you until they had proof of insurance, or they would stabilize you and dump you in a public hospital (when we still had those). After a couple of people died, state law mandated that they are not allowed to do that anymore. But how is that different from someone gravely ill from cancer being turned away.

We forget that the origins of the word hospital are the same as the origins of the words "hotel" and "hostel" and "hostice" -- places that have to take you in, even as a last resort.

[lonestarnot]

1. Absolutely Repuke philosophy incorporated into hospitalization...

kick 'em to the curb w/o the dough in hand!

[BlueEyedSon]

2. Yeah. Like a year's salary, too.... nt

[tblue37]

44. A year's salary?

To me, more like 2 1/2 year's salary!

(Because I teach college as adjunct faculty, and teachers are not worth paying for, you know.)

[Maat]

3. We have to get a national health care plan!

And we could have paid for it if we hadn't devoted so many resources to the military-industrial complex. And the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

What frosts me so badly is so many of those neocons get fat consultant contracts, if they aren't a highly-paid employee of the U.S. Government. Welfare for the morally bankrupt. They are ruthless, and they are shameless.

[Cleita]

7. Even if the money paid to HMOs and Insurance companies

were diverted to fund a NHC plan, we could cover everyone with basic access to needed health care. A study by Harvard Medical School has come to this conclusion.

[Maat]

9. Wow.

I'm trying to figure out if we could do one in which people have some choices (can keep their physician, etc.) - maybe even supplement with private insurance.

Can we have choices like that?

[Cleita]

11. Read this.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2005/april/what_are_we_purchasi.php

Also this source has every article about health care written in its archives.

[Maat]

17. Wow. Thanks for the link!

There's quite a bit to absorb there, but I will be devouring the info. there, slowly but surely.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. In Canada and Japan, people do have their private physicians

:shrug:

There are two models: the national health service model, in which all medical personnel are government employees (I believe that's the case in the UK and possibly in some other European countries), and the single payer insurance model, in which doctors are independent contractors but all payment is from the government.

Under a single payer model, anyone can go to any doctor who is willing to treat them.

[Stinky The Clown]

4. I share your outrage at the medical system

but we need to look at other parts of it, too. I am NOT defending Hopkins against your charge, believe me I'm not, but they have done a great deal of good, too. They do, literally, millions in pro bono work each year.

Discussed a bit more here .....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3637444

[deutsey]

33. This is the thing about all this "scandal" that has angered me most

While Hopkins' explanation did diminish my outrage somewhat, I'm still irked that "the system" in general would make it difficult, if not impossible, for people to get life-saving care simply because they don't have the cash up front.

[Stinky The Clown]

37. There's no other way ... Single.Payer.Healthcare

None of this monkeying around with the insurance companies taking some role. Put the fuckers out there selling anti-hate insurance or something like that. I'm sure there's a market.

But keep them the hell out of health care. It is an absolute travesty that 'money' gets cured and 'poverty' gets fucked.

I do NOT want the 'health care that congress has'. I want single payer. If you want a second tier for people willing to pay more for accelerated access or some such .... fine. But I want to know that the single mother with four kids and no job has access and a level of care equal to the President's. Nothing less.

[Maat]

5. I hope that after his surgery ...

Andy gives us permission to highlight his plight and the need for a national healthcare plan!

[Andy_Stephenson]

13. You have my permission now n/t

[Maat]

18. Thanks!!!

Get well, Andy! Stay calm (do meditations) until the surgery! Get lots of rest!

You have to read that funny thread about requesting a pic of you in the hospital gown.

I was in one yesterday, and I'm afraid I might not have kept my behind covered wandering from room to room. Sorry to those at the doctor's office.

[LibDemAlways]

6. Shit like this happens every day,

and it's goddamn humiliating for the patients involved. One day I was sitting in my dentist's waiting room and overheard the scheduler refuse to give a man who was in pain an appointment because he owed $300.00. She was real smarmy about it, too. "OK, sir, I understand you are in pain, but you have to come up with the $300.00 you still owe us. No, we will not accept partial payment. You'll have to try elsewhere." End of discussion.

[Boredtodeath]

8. Yes, EVERY day - including Christmas Eve

A dear friend of mine experienced the same call from a surgeon regarding open heart surgery; quadruple bypass. Pay up or die.

Merry effing Christmas from your friendly neighborhood thorasic surgeon.

[Cleita]

16. I won't second guess her, but having been in that position myself,

I ususally tried to talk my employer, the physician, or in this case dentist, into accepting the partial payment first. If that didn't work I usually had a secret list of other providers to send them to. I worked for physicians, not dentists, but there are usually new practices that are looking for patients and will risk taking patients who may not be able to pay. In his case if he had a partial payment available, then he probably had enough to get treatment elsewhere.

Oh, did I mention I got fired once for sending patients to other doctors? Evidently they talk on the golf course. I did get a better job though.

[nicknameless]

47. How wonderful of you to do that!

:hi:

[Paranoid_Portlander]

29. A similar incident happened to me...

... in 1996. The medical clerk assumed I didn't have any money, never asked for it. I had enough money with me, but, at the time, I didn't realize that money was the problem. She started yelling at me because I didn't have my insurance card with me, I yelled back at her, and she gave me the appointment.

[12345]

10. You're absolutely right. I thought that we were a "culture of life."

It's uncivilized not to provide health care for our citizens, especially those who are alive.

[ailsagirl]

21. They use that phrase when convenient...

like with Schiavo and a woman's right to choose, but when it comes to something like this, they blandly look the other way.

Such effing hypocrites

:mad:

[SeattleGirl]

56. Didn't you get the memo?

In BushWorld, the value of your life is only as good as the value of your bank account! :banghead:

[all.of.me]

12. i never forgot this

it is disgusting.

i have written to barbara boxer about addressing a national health care system, explaining andy's plight. i intend to send more letters, too.

people are dying, because of this no money/no care policy. that is unacceptable!

[MamaBear]

14. Since the Rich and the Corps. won't pay taxes any more

How about a tithe? C'mon, Bill Gates, you Walton siblings, ExxonMobile, all you people and entities that are drowning in cash. Insurers, and especially the pharmaceutical companies: tithe 10% of your profits to hospitals so that people who are uninsured or broke could get care.

At least until some sane, rational and humane health care program can be put into place.

[uncle ray]

15. the way i understand it

there are other hospitals that could have done the procedure, but JH was chosen because they have a higher success rate for the procedure. not to mention that the procedure has no guarantee of survival. i can understand why they need the money up front. bottom line, Andy COULD have gone with a cheaper option, but CHOSE to go with the best, you chose the best, you better be ready to PAY.

we always seem to get lost somewhere between being entitled to "reasonable" health care, and thinking every person is entitled to the best healthcare money can buy. i would be happy if our country could supply a reasonable level of health care to every person. there is a difference between JH requiring payment for this surgery and an emergency room turning away an accident victim.

with that said, Andy had made a great effort to help this country, and i appreciate what he has done, and i thank those who donated to help pay for the best health care that such a true patriot deserves. Andy, best of luck getting thru this.

[Maat]

19. I second that!

Thanks, Andy, for all of your good work.

[northzax]

27. not to mention the fact that JHUH

(full disclosure, I am a graduate student at Hopkins) is chartered by the State of Maryland, and provides tens of millions of dollars a year in free health care to the people of Maryland. That is their priority, since Maryland pays, not residents of other states.

I know several surgeons, and they are almost always willing to forgo payment for surgery when people cannot pay. But they are unwilling to command the nurses, interns, support staff and custodians to work for free. That's what people are asking here, isn't it? that the janitor who cleans the OR work for free? Of that $50,000, maybe $1,000 pays for the surgeon, the rest goes to support staff, machinery and supplies. Someone has to pay, right?

Food is a basic right, but would anyone argue that I should be able to walk into Whole Foods and simply take food, telling them I'll pay them later? no, they would direct me to a place where I can get the basic foodstuffs like a food bank. Sure, it wouldn't be organic arugula, but it's food.

I'm sure that the University of Washington has much the same system, probably more so, since it's a State school, of providing higher end care to the people of Washington first, and Oregon second. The only reason that I, as a resident of DC, could get care at Hopkins (the waitlist is a bitch, I hear) is because I am a student at the school. Otherwise I'd be at Georgetown or GW Hospital, (both fine institutions) it's a federal system, y'know?

Uncle_ray, the 'you' in this post is not directed at you personally, but at teh greater 'you' of the community.

[EFerrari]

57. Funny thing, the Hopkins Charter specifically says it is endowed

as a facility for the poor people of the State who cannot afford to get treatment. It's an interesting document. And the same Duer who found the missing check on the mail room sup's desk found it for me so I could see it for myself.

Legally, you are entitled to treatment there because you are a resident, not because you are a grad student. And according to the Charter, you should be getting in line behind homeless people.

But you'd never know it to talk to the admin. :)

[HamdenRice]

60. No one is asking JH to do it for free -- please read the OP

The outrage is that they were not willing to perform the surgery and then try to collect afterwards. The outrage is that they are saying if you don't have the money up front, you die.

[emcguffie]

20. private vs. public hospital

I think that's what it has to do with. A public hospital is compelled to treat the person and then try to get the money. But I guess Johns Hopkins is private. (Really, I'm only guessing.) But with what is going on with Andy, he's much better off going to Johns Hopkins, I hope.

Not that that excuses anything. There's so much sh*t going on in the administration of medicine these days that should be criminal... and it isn't all the doctors, of course.

My dad, may he rest in peace, was a doctor and he would treat anyone, anytime.

[Stinky The Clown]

38. And most docs still will.

Its the system that's fucked up ... not the caregivers.

[OzarkDem]

61. Not so

In our area, even the public hospitals often charge a cash down payment to uninsured patients who are diagnosed with expensive illnesses (like cancer).

Keep in mind, most private hospitals today are non-profit organizations. As a condition of being granted tax exempt status, they're required to provide a certain amount of free care to the uninsured.

[nashville_brook]

22. finally! someone said it! so true.

[dandrhesse]

23. Right on! My uncle had liquidate his entire life's savings so his wife

could get a liver transplant because she was Asian and in being so was considered an experimental procedure! I mean my uncle spent years buying very inexpensive rentals that he would fix up himself and rent out in hopes of security in his retirement years. The hospital made him sell everything he owned except for his primary residence in order to raise the $100,000.00 !!!!!!!! That insurance would not cover.

That, in my book is crimminal.

Andy's plight didn't surprise me, it is horrendous and we should remember that every day millions of americans face these types of choices, not to mention the millions of Americans that go without medications or even good diagnosis of treatable conditions both mental and physical due to lack of funds. It is a disgrace you are right!

[davsand]

24. I have stayed pretty quiet thru this entire thing with Andy.

I did suggest asking for charity care at one point, but that really only covers a hospital bill anyhow...

Poor Andy is caught up in something that goes on ALL over the US every single day. People are literally sitting at home in pain and possibly dying-- being forced to decide if they want to face a lifetime of debt and harassment in order to possibly stay alive. My husband and I lost an old friend for exactly that reason earlier this year.

He sat at home for five day with crippling chest pains waiting to see if it'd get better. It didn't, and his brother literally forced him to go to the local ER where he died in the waiting room. He worked retail all his life, paid his bills and was one of those "disposable" people--a gay man over the age of thirty five. He also had no insurance--either provided by his employer or paid for out of his own pocket.

I have been fighting the local "non-profit" hospitals for the last few years because they have not done anything to help the medically indigent in our community. They PREY on the poor, charging them higher rates for the same services. The hospitals claim that price difference is because the insurance companies have "negotiated" discounts. This is not peculiar to my local area, but it really is galling given the fact that those same hospitals are subsidized by the local community with property tax exemptions.

WE are ALL paying for those hospitals to victimize poor people.

Something that makes it even more ugly is the fact that, very often, Hospital Executives (CEOs and other higher ups) are usually making salaries in the six figure range. The Docs and the Nurses aren't making it--the policy wonks are. A lot of times they even use sleazy "deferred compensation" plans to beat the income tax system a little bit more. They are frequently compensated based on economic performance.

THOSE are the guys making decisions about how much "charity care" is "given" to the local community.

What is particularly "amusing" in all of this mess is the fact that the hospitals frequently don't collect much more than about five percent on a bill for an uninsured person. They put you thru a living hell, hand you off to a predatory collection agency, and you sit at home as long as possible before you seek care--and they still only get about five percent of what is owed when it is all said and done.

Hospital execs know this. They know full well that the PR for doing charity care is WAY bigger than any money they are gonna make off of it--but they persist in doing the harassment dance just so they can write it off as "uncollected debt."

They know people are dying, and the bottom line is they are unwilling to do anything about discounting services--in spite of information that shows they would collect MORE if they would only work out payment plans and give people a chance to pay over time.

Locally, we have stripped exemption from property taxes from the hospitals. They are now ready to come to the table and talk about what it takes to become partners with the local community in providing services to the poor--and maybe get that tax exemption back.

We did this as a last ditch effort to fix the problem, but I still don't know if it will be enough. Other places have begun to follow the lead, and other states are looking at making agreements with local government and the hospitals about billing and collections practices. Minnesota made a simply amazing agreement just a couple of weeks ago with one hospital chain, so we know it can be done.

Andy was very lucky to get accepted into the Hopkins program, and I am so very happy and hopeful for his full recovery. I only wish that we had the power to hold a fundraiser for every single person who is sick, needs help, and can't get it. We can't. All we can do is fight to fix the system we have, and that takes organizing and education.

I am sorry Andy had this horrible thing happen, but I am glad that at least some good will come of it--because now more of the DUers are looking at the health-care system with no illusions left and an eye toward change.


Laura

[seventythree]

32. pretty cool that

you were able to strip the property tax exemption to bring the local hospital to the table -- how the heck could you do that since I THOUGHT that property tax exemptions were state law, aside from E-Zones and TIF's, etc -- horses of a slightly different hue???? Have help from the legislature? -- other communities should look into the success in Champaign/Urbana(?). It's a mess -- yes, yes, yes it is. Insurance negotiated discounts, Medicare/Medicaid paying pennies on the dollar, self-payers getting stuck with differences. It IS a mess! But can we back up a second? The working poor are in the worst situation -- too much money to qualify for Medicaid, and too little to buy private insurance or pay their share for employee sponsored. But many states are trying to help with things like Kid Care (Illinois) and programs which even extend to working poor adults. There's things like earned income tax rebates which attempt to help out, if there was a low cost or maybe catastrophic only policy the working poor could afford. For the truly indigent -- unemployed or unable to work -- there IS Medicaid and hospitals and docs who accept it, even if they are becoming fewer.

There are so many aspects to the problem -- last I looked Medicaid paid 37 cents on the dollar. As reimbursement rates go down for Medicaid and Medicare, the insurance companies follow and the hospitals are squeezed more and more until staff is cut and patient care levels go down. There are highly paid CEO's and insurance execs, and baseball players, and movie stars. It's hard to know where even to begin to right all the wrongs in this society, but I am glad your community has made a start.

[davsand]

34. Hospital exemptions are approved by IL Dept of Revenue.

All exemptions that are non-homestead (owner based) are processed by the local Board of Review. According to IL Property Tax Code, charitable exemptions are based on both ownership and use of the property. We made the argument that the use was NOT exempt(charitable) because the hospital was suing poor people. Plus, we made the argument that the use of the property was NOT exclusively charitable since the hospital contracted with for profit Dr's. Groups to provide care in the hospital.

We also hit them on several other points, but the upshot of it was that the Dept of Revenue agreed with our arguments and ruled them as non-charitable in both ownership and use.

Frankly, this is very much a test case here in Illinois, and I expect it will work its way all the way up the food chain to the Illinois Supreme Court. Right now it stands that we are waiting the results/ruling from an Administrative Hearing. IF either side wants to appeal that ruling it will most likely progress to Circuit Court.

What's extremely encouraging, is the fact that one of the hospitals is trying REALLY hard clean up its act and do the right thing. In part, I think they feel it will help down the road if it ever does go to the local courts, but I also think they are starting to see the financial wisdom in playing nice with the local government wonks.

If it is a subject you want to learn more about, you can always check out the website at:

http://www.healthbusinessandpolicy.com/ExemptHospitals.htm

Jim Unland has taken a real interest in this issue and has followed it pretty closely.


Laura

[seventythree]

39. WOW!!!! thanks

I'll check the link and please keep us updated -- this is novel!

[Princess Turandot]

45. By law in NYS for years (I'm not sure what the status is right now)..

hospitals could not discount care for uninsured patients unless they qualified for one or two specific federal programs and the hospitals had obligations under those programs. That was the law, not the hospitals' decision. The theory behind it I believe was that the insured person's employer or the self-insured individual made annual payments to provide for insurance while the self-pay person did not.
Of course, the theory harks back to the days when many self-pay people were not the working poor or the mass number of people who do not have insurance now because they are unemployed or their employer dumped their insurance plan. Under that law, self pay patients were billed at 120% of the commercial insurance rates, which were set by the state as well for years.

I don't know what the status of the law is today. But in reality, at least in NYC, hospital's efforts to pursue unpaid self-pay bills for people with almost no money, were not particularly aggressive, beyond sending them to collection if the bill was high enough. But other than nasty collection letters, the process stopped there, because in the end, many hospitals were not going to ding someone's credit record, because it cost money to do that, or take someone to court who they know has no assets.

[OzarkDem]

62. Good post!

We're giving tax breaks to these institutions, who provide little in return to the community.

People pay with their lives. Treatment is delayed and sometimes denied altogether. Andy's case was unusual in that he was able to raise a signficant amount of cash in a short period of time. Most aren't able to.

[EFerrari]

25. As one JH employee said to me, this is a human freeway.

There are people beating down their doors 24/7. The JH charter requires them to take care of Maryland citizens first.

But, I agree with you that this dysfunctional health care system (bad as it is and still under attack by the Cabal, has to be the number 1 priority for a focused group of activists. It will be a long slog but it is an urgent one to take up.

[bejammin075]

26. universal health care is the same as police protection

The arguement for universal health care is the same as the arguement for universal police protection (which we already have, an no one argues against).

Some portion of everybody's taxes goes to the police. The police protect all of us. There isn't an issue about affordability of police protection. Granted, there may be differences in police protection for the rich and poor, but if someone calls the police from the ghetto, they don't do a financial background check of the caller before they send a squad car.

Violence that requires police intervention is random, but not entirely random. Poor people living in bad neighborhoods may be more likely to be near violence that requires police protection, but we fund the police anyway, and don't bitch about poor people sucking up all the resources for police protection.

By the same token, medical illness that requires doctor intervention is random, but not entirely random. People who have poor diets or don't exercise may be more likely to have medical illness, but that isn't a factor for whether we give medical care to an individual.

Why is there such a striking difference between police protection and medical protection? I would use the above arguement to go on the offensive in the quest for universal health care: To be against universal health care is to be against universal police protection because the same principles apply. If you don't support universal health care, then to be consistent, you must also support a pay-for-service police protection. And who could be for that? It is an untennable position.

[KC21304]

46. I agree. Why do we need insurance companies acting

as a middleman and raking in millions for their stockholders and executives ? Universal single payer health care. We don't need no stinking middleman. It works for medicare.

[itcfish1]

28. Republican Morals

You only deserve to live if you have money.

[spanone]

30. Only the rich survive because they can afford it.

[Vinca]

31. One of the biggest misconceptions is that people without insurance

will "somehow" find treatment. That's not true. People are dying.

[Zodiak]

35. here are numbers

The number of people who die of no access to healthcare is around 18,000 yearly. I saw the stats in a thread on this site a day or two ago, and many doubted that the number was high enough.

45 million people without healthcare and only 18,000 die? That is only 1/2000 or so. Assuming equal age distribution (elderly on another plan), the numbers should be somewhere around 1/200. That would be well-over a 100,000 people dying a year, minimum.

Funny how that number is also the number of people who die FROM health care every year. Number one medical system my foot!!

[Vinca]

40. I think the 18,000 figure is very low. For one thing, how many sick

people without insurance do not bother to seek care anymore? Quite a few, I'd guess. In my own case, I recently refused to go to a doctor until I was a week into what turned out to be a life-threatening illness. I might have kicked the bucket in the interim and wouldn't have been added to the 18,000. As it stands now, I just assume that if I get very, very ill I'm apt to die because of lack of health care . . . what a country.

[Zodiak]

41. I agree

I think the numbers are higher, as well, citing 100,000 or so as my guess. To that we add the other 119,000 who died in 2002 from lack of health care, and I would say we have about 220-250,000 deaths a year from our awful, awful way of distributing medicine.

Our health care system imposes two Iraq-level wars on the American people EVERY year..we just do not see the devastation because there are no bullets and bombs. Still some people insist on cheering it on with flowers and candy as if this system is doing us a favor...it certainly is not.

[dxstone]

53. And the WTC attacks cost how many lives?

3000 or less, right?...
And the entire country goes absolutely apeshit...
But THIS doesn't matter... even though it happens every year... hmmm...
Even if it WERE only 18000 (and I lean toward the larger figures myself), that would still be AT LEAST SIX TIMES the catastrophe, right? EVERY year, right?

Our LEADERS in government, big bizness and industry don't give a flying fuck about us; they are ALL insane power-mad cannibalistic serial-killers...
That's what I think...
This is the system they tell us we're stuck with... and all us common villagers know that it EATS thousands of people every year, like some dragon of mythology...
Our civilization's a helluva lot like the Incans, I'm thinkin'... when you wrassle it over, and look closely at its dark underbelly...

And lastly: Whatever happened to that ol' Hippocratic Oath?
D

DESTROYING THE WORLD

IS HARD WORK! IT'S HARD!

[Mutley]

36. why are the costs so high?

is it really necessary for a surgery like that to cost $50,000? does that cover equipment, doctors salary, etc. or is it just so Hopkins can gain a profit? i think it's rediculous.

[Princess Turandot]

42. Your comment about turning away patients in NYC EDs for trauma..

"When health care "reform" took off a few years ago, hospitals began the disgraceful practice of turning away even mortally wounded accident and crime victims here in NYC. That's right: you take a gut shot as an innocent bystander of a drive by shooting, and the hospital would not let you out of the ambulance or treat you until they had proof of insurance, or they would stabilize you and dump you in a public hospital (when we still had those). After a couple of people died, state law mandated that they are not allowed to do that anymore. But how is that different from someone gravely ill from cancer being turned away."

This was not the case at any non-profit hospital that I worked in in NYC. Firstly, there are federal EMTALA rules, not state rules that control hospital responses to emergency care. Secondly, in NYC, there are hospitals designated as 'major trauma units' where ambulances take seriously hurt people based upon the closest facility. There are only 3 or 4 of those in Manhattan, and I worked at one of them.Insurance is irrelevent at that point.

We maintained a staffed OR on standby for the purpose of treating those patients only, so we supported a specialized staff for an operating room 24 hours a day even though it was not in use 24 hours a day. New York Hospital has the burn trauma unit for NYC, and the others had some variety of adult physical trauma or pediatric physical trauma. We also had an emergency psych department, and many of those arrivals were uninsured.We had an undocumented alien drug dealer with us for several months who jumped out of a 6th floor window with the police in pursuit on one occasion (I assume he thought he'd find a fire escape), busted up almost evrything in his body and walked out of the hospital a few months later w/o us ever receiving a dime.

After an emergency admission, you are more likely to get transferred out of a hospital in NYC if you have insurance with an HMO which doesn't contract with the city, and which insists on having the patient moved to a hospital which they have a contract with.

If you or someone you know was picked up by an ambulance and they took you to a hospital on the basis of insurance (and you can prove that) you should have reported the ambulance company to the NYS department of health. I have read reports of what you describe once in a blue moon, but they've always involved private ambulance companies under contract to a hospital, not the NYC EMS or any of the many ambulance fleets operated by hospitals themselves.

Hospitals do not have a license to print money. They cannot take in an unlimited number of non-paying non-emergent patients because nurses & orderlies don't work for free and neither would you. The issue with hospital care is the lack of universal healthcare insurance, not some hard-hearted hospital lacking 'hospitality'.

[Shakespeare]

48. You are correct. EVERYONE should be aware of EMTALA.

EMTALA is the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, passed by Congress in 1986. You can NOT be turned away from a facility based on lack of insurance. Hospitals will occasionally try to find ways to skirt these regulations, and they are punished when caught doing so.

Here's a link to the specifics of EMTALA:

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/providers/emtala/

That said, the healthcare crisis this country is experiencing is shameful and inexcusable. You shouldn't have to be in an "emergency" situation to finally be given healthcare (as EMTALA provides). It's far, far, too small a protection, and with the wealth this nation possesses, we should do better.

I'm 100% in favor of national healthcare--and NO more health insurance.

[dxstone]

54. YOU are also correct... NO MORE health insurance!!

The insurance industry has shown us what they can do, when lives are at stake... which is mainly to endlessly debate about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin without significant potential for injury or other serious liability, all while lives that could be saved are lost...
Over and over again; nowadays, it is their basic MO...
Sad, man... just sad...

Good luck, Andy!...
D

Edit: minor spellin' fixer-upper...

[donkeyotay]

49. Yes, DC ignores what we really need while the distractions continue

We are predestined to bankruptcy!

We recently had a minor emergency and got an outrageous bill that we had to pay in full, while an insurance company would have paid a fraction, and Medicare even less.

It makes no sense to save when you're not saving for your own future, but just to have a nest egg to fork over to the hospital the first time you need health CARE.

[Karenina]

50. HR, you are SO

SPOT ON!!! :hug: :loveya:

[valis]

51. Last time I checked, Baltimore residents have the priority at JH.

Andy's payment would go to subsidize some of the residents. How could JH perform free surgery and stay in business and carry out their mission? You should not blame JH. They will save Andy's life, after all. See? Andy came up with the money, so it's good they required it.

[EFerrari]

58. Problem is, even after Andy came up with the money

they wanted to turn him away because he had no insurance. And, they nearly did until they got a little public focus and some calls from journalists following this story.

Laura is right. We need to do something about this health care system immediately. Look at the screen names on this thread. Every sixth one doesn't have health insurance -- if you believe the underreported numbers on uninsured Americans. And even with insurance, many people can't afford to get the care they need.

:nuke:

[AuntiBush]

52. And they're reportedly the BIGGEST Hospital in the world!

They own half of Baltimore. They've bought up so many homes in and around the hospital, placing many people to look for other places to live.

I remember a time when they were very respected and had a charity division in billing. Not anymore. And, they're on the list of those that donated to the Chimp for Prez.

[EFerrari]

59. L.A County has the biggest psych clinic in the world.

My husband went there for 18 months and didn't get one minute of appropriate treatment. Same with every other public facility we tried. I had to beg and borrow money in order for him to see a real doctor and get stablized. It cost us both years of our lives.

[AuntiBush]

63. JHH has become a greedy, corporate landowner investment

Sadly, sadly so. Remember a time when it was "the most" respected in the world. Well, not in these parts. Not anymore.

[DearAbby]

55. That would be a wonderful Letter to the Editor.

Write it and send it in...People should know about this, Good Health is a basic human right. Should not have any person denied life-saving procedures just because they are unable to pay...Its a mountain to climb, The law in Texas, signed by the "compassionate Conservative" then acting Governor G.W. Bush, that allows a hospital to remove life support of people that are not able to pay. That denies the RIGHT TO LIFE! It doesn't get anymore basic than that! We have a long uphil road to travel to success.

In this country there should be health care for each and every citizen. If by achieving this goal is to take the step with Senator Kerry's proposed bill, to insure every child, to start in that direction, then I back it.

There were two reasons we donated for Andy...One, so he could have the best chance at life! Two, to somehow make this case known, that there should never have to be these kind of situations, A poor person in this country would have to resign themselves to death, because they can not pay for Life...what kind of choice is that?

[EFerrari]

64. I'm recovering from being slimed and trying to think through what

just happened. And, it's sort of even worse than that, HamdenRice.

We got the cash deposit there, and JH was too busy to find it on their own Mail Room Supervisor's desk. And so, canceled the surgery. (It has been rescheduled for later this month but still, that's just unconscionable.)

I don't want to trash them or anything. I did my best to get Andy treatment there because their results are so much better than anywhere else. But, it was all about the money, no matter what face anyone tries to put on it.

I hope, hope, hope, that this doesn't get lost: We came together for a just cause and we were unstoppable. Despite the corporate mindset, despite the trolls and stupidity, we got it done.

Does anyone have an idea of how hard it is to get someone into JH AND to raise that kind of money that fast?

(There are notebooks with tallies ALL OVER MY LIVING ROOM. It looks like I had the world's biggest poker game here. :) )

Please notice that for ten solid days, DUers threw all their resources together and presented a united front to a -- uhm -- challenging world. And we were so successful, that the opposition was compelled to try to poison it. PLEASE NOTICE HOW WELL WE WORKED TOGETHER.

We have a lot of power collectively, if we don't allow ourselves to be frightened by that fact. If we take the risk, lookit what we can do.

:)

God or something help Big Pharma and the rest of the corporatists should we ever decide to take them on.

Well done, DUers. And, thank you.
Beth


/typin'